Mr Bates vs the Post Office

[nonayclaret]

Have they not been through enough ?

Fantastic!

[THEWELLERNUT70]

Vennells hands back her honour with immediate effect

[claretonthecoast1882]

Vennells hands back her honour with immediate effect

Just her Post Office pension and freedom to go

[evensteadiereddie]

Good.
Next step prison with a bit of luck.

[Vincent'sCap]

Amazing how a tv programme shakes the government into action,ITV could you now please do a programme on how woman have had 6 yrs pension stolen off them by the government and the suffering its caused and give the Waspi woman a boost.

[evensteadiereddie]

Yes, no doubt the government will claim the moral high ground by pointing out how quickly they've acted.
In all honesty, it would have been political suicide for them not to get off their backsides and, of course, all the mealy mouthed crap being spouted by the likes of Gove and so on does beg the question why did it take you so long?
Is this country so on its arse that it takes a television drama for justice, overdue by 20 years, to be done?

[Jel]

Amazing how a tv programme shakes the government into action,ITV could you now please do a programme on how woman have had 6 yrs pension stolen off them by the government and the suffering its caused and give the Waspi woman a boost.

And the two years 3 months off me and many others!

[GetIntoEm]

Amazing how a tv programme shakes the government into action,ITV could you now please do a programme on how woman have had 6 yrs pension stolen off them by the government and the suffering its caused and give the Waspi woman a boost.

what about the rest of us whos pension age has changed?

[dsr]

Amazing how a tv programme shakes the government into action,ITV could you now please do a programme on how woman have had 6 yrs pension stolen off them by the government and the suffering its caused and give the Waspi woman a boost.

Postmasters being sent to jail for things they haven't done, isn't a political thread. The rights and wrongs of equal pay and retirement benefits for women, would be.

[Nori1958]

Amazing how a tv programme shakes the government into action,ITV could you now please do a programme on how woman have had 6 yrs pension stolen off them by the government and the suffering its caused and give the Waspi woman a boost.

Exactly.... Well said

[warksclaret]

Can Vennells handed back CBE, be sent straight to Mr Bates

[lakedistrictclaret]

Alan Bates was offered the OBE, but refused to accept it while Vennells had her CBE.

It will be interesting to see whether he us offered it again.

[Boss Hogg]

Who the hell decided to award Vennels a CBE without actually looking at what she had done ? The whole system is a farce. They are handed out like sweets and with no proper research. Agree above that It should have been given to Mr Bates. Shame it took a million signatures and the threat of it being stripped. Hopefully Vennels, her predecessor, execs and enforcement officers are looked into much further.

[Big Vinny K]

It’s good that she’s had her CBE taken off her but also feels like a serial killer getting 2 sausages instead of 3 for his breakfast in the Big House.

[Croydon Claret]

Hope handing back the CBE isn't treated as her get out of jail free card

[Claret Toni]

Paymaster General John Glen - a cabinet minister - has gone on the record as saying he welcomes the decision.

"Holding those accountable for this tragic miscarriage of justice is essential," he says, adding Paula Vennells's decision helps maintain "the integrity of the honours system."

Like John Glen, I welcome the decision, but, after Boris's bongs (note it's bongs not bonks) for the Tory Party donors and Liz's shameless honours list, we're told the handing back of this CBE maintains the integrity of the honours system. Give me strength.

[Big Vinny K]

Paymaster General John Glen - a cabinet minister - has gone on the record as saying he welcomes the decision.

"Holding those accountable for this tragic miscarriage of justice is essential," he says, adding Paula Vennells's decision helps maintain "the integrity of the honours system."

Like John Glen, I welcome the decision, but, after Boris's bongs (note it's bongs not bonks) for the Tory Party donors and Liz's shameless honours list, we're told the handing back of this CBE maintains the integrity of the honours system. Give me strength.

I can’t say this about many Tories (or any if I’m honest) but John Glen is a decent bloke from what I have seen of him in the last few years. He’s worked for the Treasury for a while and dealt with the credit union sector which he supported really well. He’s never been one for the limelight either and just seems like one of those rare things in government - really knowledgeable and tries to do the right thing.

[mdd2]

Paymaster General John Glen - a cabinet minister - has gone on the record as saying he welcomes the decision.

"Holding those accountable for this tragic miscarriage of justice is essential," he says, adding Paula Vennells's decision helps maintain "the integrity of the honours system."

Like John Glen, I welcome the decision, but, after Boris's bongs (note it's bongs not bonks) for the Tory Party donors and Liz's shameless honours list, we're told the handing back of this CBE maintains the integrity of the honours system. Give me strength.

Been going on for generations. Lloyd George was well known for handing out gongs to their cronies.
And this post office farce captures all Governments and parties since about 2000.
But the real perpetrators must be at the PO, not Governments, and at Fujitsu. The present Government should go for Fujitsu to fund
the costs of Compensation which must include to the dependants of those subpostmasters hounded to suicide.

[GetIntoEm]

glad a TV show has got people wound up on a topic they had no interest in before. love to see it

[Big Vinny K]

Been going on for generations. Lloyd George was well known for handing out gongs to their cronies.
And this post office farce captures all Governments and parties since about 2000.
But the real perpetrators must be at the PO, not Governments, and at Fujitsu. The present Government should go for Fujitsu to fund
the costs of Compensation which must include to the dependants of those subpostmasters hounded to suicide.

If Fujitsu staff lied under oath or lied in other circumstances where they were not being told to lie by the Post Office then they should be prosecuted. They should also be made to repay a significant amount into any compensation fund given they have benefited directly from lying (if that’s proven to be the case).

But in terms of launching a system full of defects into the live environment then I think that the responsibility for that lies with the Post Office. As the customer the Post Office must have had the final decision as to whether to do this or not.

I also believe that not only were they fully aware that Fujitsu staff were manipulating the sub post masters end of day balances I think Fujitsu did this under the instruction of Post Office staff. We know now from the drama series that they knew Fujitsu staff had access to the live systems and were doing this so why would the Post Office not tell Fujitsu to cease this practice and further claim monies back from Fujitsu for breach of contract ?

[NottsClaret]

glad a TV show has got people wound up on a topic they had no interest in before. love to see it

They should get Sarah Lancashire or maybe James Nesbitt to head up neatly packaged 3-part ITV dramas on climate change or crumbling public services.

[mdd2]

I think the problem for us not involved in any way with this scandal is the only feel we have comes from the TV airing and I think the Panorama showing of the true case. It does beggar belief that the PO once it knew Horizon had problems just carried on as if nothing was wrong apart from a sudden epidemic of corrupt sub-postmasters/mistresses

[Big Vinny K]

I think the problem for us not involved in any way with this scandal is the only feel we have comes from the TV airing and I think the Panorama showing of the true case. It does beggar belief that the PO once it knew Horizon had problems just carried on as if nothing was wrong apart from a sudden epidemic of corrupt sub-postmasters/mistresses

Maybe they thought that Horizon was going to be robust, bug free and a fantastic shiny new system and trusted Fujitsu to be more than capable of delivering this ?

Oh hang on a minute the government had just had to write off £700 million in a failed horizon system Fujitsu had tried to build for another government department. Obviously the next logical step was to give them the Post Office contract and trust things were going to be tickety boo. I mean they couldn’t get it wrong a second time surely.

[Juan Tanamera]

glad a TV show has got people wound up on a topic they had no interest in before. love to see it

So people discussing a current topic are 'wound up'
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I'm of the opinion that this is one of the best debates I've seen in quite some time.

[IanMcL]

I thought they had sorted it all a few years ago. Instead, it was just the Gov kicking it into touch with a never ending Public Enquiry.

Now MPs all clamouring to say I have helped most or I demand this/that etc.

The lawyer (KC) on Radio 5 this morning, was saying that legislation by Parliament is not best solution, as more is needed.

One bulk appeal, using the confirmed evidence, already accepted, could swiftly quash all the convictions and require a public apology from PO/Gov which would wipe any stain from all those involved. Then compensation could be paid with guaranteed sum plus case by case (independently decided). Currently PO judge/hurt/appeal/compensation. Very wrong.

The poorest thing I have heard today is the personal sorry from the Priest Vennals, the former PO CEO and almost fast tracked to be Bishop of London (behind only Canterbury and York).

Her words were 'I am sorry for all those who fell foul of the Horizon system'. So not her decision making or any other decisions taken by the PO executives - just the system.

Impersonal bitch.

[Big Vinny K]

An apology Boris Johnson would be proud of.
Carefully worded and no doubt advised by her expensive lawyer…..who I suspect could be a busy man or woman in the next couple of years.

[Chobulous]

glad a TV show has got people wound up on a topic they had no interest in before. love to see it

You have to laugh at the self righteousness of this. I don’t remember seeing your long running campaign on this issue.
On another note, I have no sympathy at all for Paula Vennels she deserves all she gets but I can definitely see her being thrown under the bus in the hope that it will all die down afterwards

[GetIntoEm]

You have to laugh at the self righteousness of this. I don’t remember seeing your long running campaign on this issue.
On another note, I have no sympathy at all for Paula Vennels she deserves all she gets but I can definitely see her being thrown under the bus in the hope that it will all die down afterwards

It's not self righteousness, I've known about this case for years and it's been a shame for those involved, but I'm no more invested than I am as when I hear other miscarriages of justice.

It's terrible, but I don't need an ITV drama to tell me to be invested in a topic.

[Nori1958]

glad a TV show has got people wound up on a topic they had no interest in before. love to see it

Like all TV dramas , a lot of it was made up. No way did the post office co operate with the making of the drama, so any conversation between members of the post office on their own, can only be made up.
The guy from 2nd sight doesn't exist, it's a character based on two individuals

What it has done is highlight the injustice, and pushed the story to the forefront of people's mind, and looks like it's brought forward justice to those involved

So yes the program has got people wound up, and within a week of it showing looks like it's done more to get justice than anything else has over the years

[claretandy]

Questions for sir kneelalot, should he lose his knighthood?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... ions/?s=09

[AmbleClaret]

Questions for sir kneelalot, should he lose his knighthood?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... ions/?s=09

Please explain why ?

[Big Vinny K]

Let’s not turn this into a political thread if we can help it please.
Other than our resident Tommy Cooper posts it’s been a good thread.

[Big Vinny K]

Like all TV dramas , a lot of it was made up. No way did the post office co operate with the making of the drama, so any conversation between members of the post office on their own, can only be made up.
The guy from 2nd sight doesn't exist, it's a character based on two individuals

What it has done is highlight the injustice, and pushed the story to the forefront of people's mind, and looks like it's brought forward justice to those involved

So yes the program has got people wound up, and within a week of it showing looks like it's done more to get justice than anything else has over the years

Not sure based on the many interviews I have seen in the last couple of weeks from the real people involved that there is that much dramatisation to be fair.

As you say the conversation between Post Office staff will have to be scripted but these are actually few and far between and most of the time there are sub postmasters or lawyers or in court rooms etc.
There’s also an element of assuming the kind of things that would be discussed based on the things we know now actually happened beforehand or afterwards.

The writer of the drama has said that she had researched the story for a number of years and gone into a lot of detail. Again since the drama aired on TV a lot of the content has now been corroborated by those involved and also by actual documents (eg the email from Vennels to her staff asking them to find a way to tell the select committee that they could not get remote access)

[AmbleClaret]

Some of the personal stories being shared on TV and radio today are horrific, miscarriages, suicides,premature deaths,young children's parents wrongly jailed,ruining their childhood.
I would like to think the amount of negative publicity it is producing will lead to some radical changes in how the institutions which rule over us might change, but I don't hold out much hope sadly.

[evensteadiereddie]

I watched the group of postmaster on BBB Breakfast this morning and then a couple of them on 5Live with Nicky Campbell.
Absolutely horrifying.
As I said a while ago, if I were in their shoes I'd not only want full/extra compensation I'd want revenge.

[Eloise Laws]

Caught a little of Will Mellor’s interview this morning, and he said how can you compensate or put monetary value of some of the things that happened, people loosing their own money, homes, jobs, going to prison, having electrical shock treatment for depression, threat of suicide, kids being bullied, having to wear a tag, people pointing the finger…the list goes on. It’s shameful the way people were treated and lied too, and I think the general public are astounded at what’s being reported now.

[claretandy]

Please explain why ?

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/sta ... rYpyg&s=19

[AmbleClaret]

Rearrange, in your own order- straws,Murdoch,clutching,at ...........

[Big Vinny K]

https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/sta ... rYpyg&s=19

You seriously think a couple of post offices cases would end up on the desk of the Director for Public Prosecution ?

[Paul Waine]

Maybe they thought that Horizon was going to be robust, bug free and a fantastic shiny new system and trusted Fujitsu to be more than capable of delivering this ?

Oh hang on a minute the government had just had to write off £700 million in a failed horizon system Fujitsu had tried to build for another government department. Obviously the next logical step was to give them the Post Office contract and trust things were going to be tickety boo. I mean they couldn’t get it wrong a second time surely.

Hi BVK, the "failed horizon system" was "Pathway." National Audit Office reported in 2000 that Pathway had wasted £1 billion of taxpayers money. Pathway/Horizon was developed for the Post Office and Benefits Office. It was intended to computerise the payment of benefits, replacing giros.

[Big Vinny K]

Hi BVK, the "failed horizon system" was "Pathway." National Audit Office reported in 2000 that Pathway had wasted £1 billion of taxpayers money. Pathway/Horizon was developed for the Post Office and Benefits Office. It was intended to computerise the payment of benefits, replacing giros.

Hi Paul
Yes knew that. Absolutely crazy that they were allowed just plough on with the new Horizon system for the Post Office.
Just shows you more than anything the lack of accountability (let alone expertise) in these taxpayer funded government organisations.
Shocking

[Paul Waine]

Hi Paul
Yes knew that. Absolutely crazy that they were allowed just plough on with the new Horizon system for the Post Office.
Just shows you more than anything the lack of accountability (let alone expertise) in these taxpayer funded government organisations.
Shocking

It may not even be the worst example.

Guardian article, 18th Sept 2013: www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/18 ... ystem-10bn

Abandoned NHS IT system has cost £10bn so far

Bill for abortive plan, described as 'the biggest IT failure ever seen', was originally estimated to be £6.4bn

Lots of IT horror stories in the article. Fujitsu gets a mention.

[Boss Hogg]

Like all TV dramas , a lot of it was made up. No way did the post office co operate with the making of the drama, so any conversation between members of the post office on their own, can only be made up.
The guy from 2nd sight doesn't exist, it's a character based on two individuals

What it has done is highlight the injustice, and pushed the story to the forefront of people's mind, and looks like it's brought forward justice to those involved

So yes the program has got people wound up, and within a week of it showing looks like it's done more to get justice than anything else has over the years

The victims were involved and some met the actors playing them on a number of occasions . One was on the radio yesterday. Yes it’s drama but I’m more inclined to believe the victims version of events than the post office.

[Nori1958]

The victims were involved and some met the actors playing them on a number of occasions . One was on the radio yesterday. Yes it’s drama but I’m more inclined to believe the victims version of events than the post office.

Not once did I say I didn't believe the victims version

[Boss Hogg]

It’s is important that the victims are taken care of first but there is very little talk of how the perpetrators of this cover up can be pursued. Lives have been ruined. Someone was on radio yesterday morning whose daughter has had serious anxiety problems caused by this. Meanwhile Paula Vennels has had millions in income and her pension fund from her time at the Post Office. . She was also happy to accept her CBE until it was about to be pulled from her.There must have been plenty in the know but towing the company line.

[Carlos the Great]

I’ve not read all tbe thread but why did it take so long for the penny to drop that it would be extremely unlikely so many postmasters were stealing ? .. I mean hundreds ..dod nobody think this can’t be right

[Gerry Hattrick]

I’ve not read all tbe thread but why did it take so long for the penny to drop that it would be extremely unlikely so many postmasters were stealing ? .. I mean hundreds ..dod nobody think this can’t be right

I've thought the same about the magistrates and judges involved in the prosecutions.

[Nori1958]

I've thought the same about the magistrates and judges involved in the prosecutions.

A magistrate or judge sitting on a case, say in Newcastle, would be unaware of a similar case for example in Birmingham.
Because the postmasters were being told there were no other cases the question would not be raised by defending solicitors either

[Quickenthetempo]

Post office investigator getting ripped you shreds in the inquiry live on BBC2.

[Boss Hogg]

Bradshaw says he ‘ guesses that he probably would have known ‘ there were issues with horizon when he was investigating post offices. The back pedalling and squirming is an embarrassment.