New Burnley manager candidates as suggested by The Athletic...

[ClaretOfMancunia]

(This is in no way me saying I don't support keeping VK - I do, but this is an interesting discussion nonetheless)

The Athletic suggest Steve Cooper to be the best fit for shoring up a leaky defence... Some other names mentioned too;

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[mickleoverclaret]

Quite an arbitrary set of criteria. I don't think we need to worry about giving minutes to youth, for example!

[ClaretOfMancunia]

Quite an arbitrary set of criteria. I don't think we need to worry about giving minutes to youth, for example!

This was how they decided the criteria;

First, the criteria.

While Kompany’s switch to a 4-2-3-1 system has improved Burnley’s defensive compactness from open play since the start of the season, their defensive record is still bleak, conceding an average of two goals per game — making the first job to tighten things up at the back.

Secondly, similar to Palace, any manager at Burnley needs to work with a squad who can overperform against their budget, with the purse strings understandably tighter than you’d find at a top-half club. Burnley did have a net spend of close to £90million in the summer, but that money had to be spread across multiple positions with a high turnover of players since their promotion-winning campaign.

Finally, with Burnley’s focus on youth — they have the second-youngest squad in the Premier League this season — there is a clear directive for their manager to play, and nurture, younger talent.

[Penwortham_Claret]

As soon as I saw Stevie G being suggested as a plausible option I decided how much credit I was giving this article

[Newcastleclaret93]

Steve cooper would be a great choice IMO. He’s a good manager

[xxmunkyennuixx]

Vinny in obviously but we should always have a list of credible managers just in case. Gerrard is a strange one. Wouldn't have him anywhere near being on the list. Put on the pile of poor managers alongside Rooney, Lampard etc. That generation of England players will be distinctly average. Robins has produced solid results everywhere and seems to have an eye for talented youngsters. Cooper is very gifted but I think he might end up at a bigger club - Forest ownership are eccentric to say the least.

[Rick_Muller]

As soon as I saw Stevie G being suggested as a plausible option I decided how much credit I was giving this article

^^^this^^^

[Swizzlestick]

Generous to put Steve Cooper's 'outperform budget' as 'high'.

[CoolClaret]

Certainly don't want to move on from VK but I do think Mark Robins is a top manager.

[claret2018]

Gerrard! FFS

[Dyched]

As soon as I saw Stevie G being suggested as a plausible option I decided how much credit I was giving this article

Minutes to youth “Very Low”

What will we do?! Play 5 a side?

[ClaretOfMancunia]

As soon as I saw Stevie G being suggested as a plausible option I decided how much credit I was giving this article

Hypothetically speaking, if we did pot VK then Cooper would be top of my list. Gerrard would be bottom.

[Woodleyclaret]

Is this the Cooper who spent millions at Forest and still couldn't win games.?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Is Gerrard really as bad as people are making out?

His record at Rangers is great with 2.25 points per game.

His record at Villa is ok with 1.2 points per game.

His record at his current club is ok with 1.6 points per game.

Not sure any of them point to a shocking manager as some are making out.

For reference VKs record at Anderlecht was 1.6PPG
VKs record in the championship was 2.19PPG
Record in prem 0.55 PPG

[dsr]

I think perhaps the most important criterion ought to be "are they a good manager".

I don't see any way that getting rid of Kompany could make things better, anyway. Kompany has the best chance of keeping this squad up, or of getting promotion again if we go down.

[claptrappers_union]

I don't think it's about the manager; I think it's about the principles of how ALK want to run the club, and it seems from the Mission to Burnley documentary that VK is on the same page.

Scout affordable talent from abroad, give them a platform in the Premier League, make lots of profit on said player in 2-3 years and then repeat-rinse. I don't think we will see Burnley players staying for much longer than five years anymore. I think it will be a constant high turnaround of talent from now on.

So if VK ever departs the club, the new manager will have to buy into the boards process - not just how they perform on the pitch and results.

[claret2018]

Is Gerrard really as bad as people are making out?

His record at Rangers is great with 2.25 points per game.

His record at Villa is ok with 1.2 points per game.

His record at his current club is ok with 1.6 points per game.

Not sure any of them point to a shocking manager as some are making out.

For reference VKs record at Anderlecht was 1.6PPG
VKs record in the championship was 2.19PPG
Record in prem 0.55 PPG

Anyone could manage Rangers and get that sort of ratio.

He massively underachieved with Villa.

He’s massively underachieving in his current role with the squad he’s got.

He just isn’t a good manager. At best he’s very, very average but because of his name he’s been given opportunities way beyond his abilities.

[Chester Perry]

I don't think it's about the manager; I think it's about the principles of how ALK want to run the club, and it seems from the Mission to Burnley documentary that VK is on the same page.

Scout affordable talent from abroad, give them a platform in the Premier League, make lots of profit on said player in 2-3 years and then repeat-rinse. I don't think we will see Burnley players staying for much longer than five years anymore. I think it will be a constant high turnaround of talent from now on.

So if VK ever departs the club, the new manager will have to buy into the boards process - not just how they perform on the pitch and results.

I tend to agree

there is also the far from significant fact of how deeply the club is reliant on the services of the managers business enterprises, not that it is visible in the accounts of either group.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I don't think it's about the manager; I think it's about the principles of how ALK want to run the club, and it seems from the Mission to Burnley documentary that VK is on the same page.

Scout affordable talent from abroad, give them a platform in the Premier League, make lots of profit on said player in 2-3 years and then repeat-rinse. I don't think we will see Burnley players staying for much longer than five years anymore. I think it will be a constant high turnaround of talent from now on.

So if VK ever departs the club, the new manager will have to buy into the boards process - not just how they perform on the pitch and results.

That’s sound absolutely awful, like a department store window dressing manager. Wonder how long it’ll take for fans to get bored of just watching players develop to then be sold like a conveyor belt.

What happens if we just keep losing once we get relegated, I hope Pace has a plan for that!

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

He just isn’t a good manager. At best he’s very, very average but because of his name he’s been given opportunities way beyond his abilities.

Rooney
Lampard

And maybe….

[Chester Perry]

That’s sound absolutely awful, like a department store window dressing manager. Wonder how long it’ll take for fans to get bored of just watching players develop to then be sold like a conveyor belt.

What happens if we just keep losing once we get relegated, I hope Pace has a plan for that!

you make it sound like switching channels from the Generation Game with Bruce Forsythe 'Good game! good game!" to Bullseye with Jim Bowen and "look what you could have won!"

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

you make it sound like switching channels from the Generation Game with Bruce Forsythe 'Good game! good game!" to Bullseye with Jim Bowen and "look what you could have won!"

If Pace ever wakes up from his infatuation with VK then I wonder what he will do next.

I thought we were trying to be the under dog fighting against the big boys not just trying to make as much money as possible and running off into the sunset.

Not a “Look at this nice player please buy him “ club , what a load of crap.

[dsr]

If Pace ever wakes up from his infatuation with VK then I wonder what he will do next.

I thought we were trying to be the under dog fighting against the big boys not just trying to make as much money as possible and running off into the sunset.

Not a “Look at this nice player please buy him “ club , what a load of crap.

If you thought Pace isn't into making as much money as possible, then you haven't been paying attention. He might not be intending to run off into the sunset, though. Not as long as money is still there to be had.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

If you thought Pace isn't into making as much money as possible, then you haven't been paying attention. He might not be intending to run off into the sunset, though. Not as long as money is still there to be had.

As Bannatyne would say “ I’m out “

When people realise we are just here to line their pockets and nothing else im sure they will follow suit.

[DCWat]

I don’t mind if we are successful at turning over players. It’s hardly a huge leap from us always being a selling club.

What I would say is that for such a practice to be successful (aside from the obvious) having a small core group of players with longevity at the club is important.

They will change over time, but having such a group with experience who ‘get the club’ will be vital. Lose that and that’s where I fear things will go wrong.

[sjb]

Potter, Rosenior & McKenna should all feature in any 'next manager' discussion.

[Dodobdobodobo]

Potter, Rosenior & McKenna should all feature in any 'next manager' discussion.

Definitely McKenna for me but I’m sure VK going nowhere!

[basil6345789]

Big Sam

[KRBFC]

As Bannatyne would say “ I’m out “

When people realise we are just here to line their pockets and nothing else im sure they will follow suit.

Brighton and Brentford have done very well at building young sides, selling a few and keeping the conveyor belt going, whilst remaining competitive.

We are years behind Brighton in the process, we’ve been forced into a huge turnover of players in the last two summer windows for obvious reasons. Now we’ve got a squad built I expect we will see far less of a turnover each year and some stability in the group.

A big outgoing to restock the conveyor belt, like Brentford did when they sold Watkins, Maupay and Benrahma and replaced them with Toney and Mbuemo. Like Brighton have sold Macallister and Caicedo recently to further invest in the conveyor belt.

Every team wants players who other teams want, we want the best players possible to be the best team possible, so we have to buy and develop them. That takes time, patience and ups and downs.

Under Dyche we had a squad filled with players who nobody else wanted to pay a fee for, £13m on Robbie Brady and no doubt 50 grand a week, that’s an expensive investment for a poor player. Vydra, Bardsley, Rodriguez, Pieters, Lowton I could go on and on, no other club would buy those from us, we were stuck with them until they left on free transfers to a significantly lower level.

[KRBFC]

That isn’t a knock on Dyche either, a fine achievement to cling onto PL survival for so many years with such an old team filled to the brim with players nobody else wanted.

It was always going to get progressively worse though because Dyche built for the right now with zero thoughts about the health of the team long term. Spending £10m on a 29 year old Jay Rod then another £10m on 29 year old Weghorst wasn’t smart business long term but short term thinking.

It’s not just the transfer fees either, our wage bill was like £80m a year with bonuses on top. Paying crap like Robbie Brady 50 grand a week. That’s only sustainable in the PL. Go look where that Dyche squad went to, half of them are retired or lower league.

Odobert and Koleosho for £13m combined on a combined £35k a week

Or

Robbie Brady £13m on 50k a week.

Bardsley 45k a week or Vitinho 15k a week?

Stephens 1m 50k a week or Cullen 2m 20k a week?

It’s an absolute no brainier business wise

[StayingDown4Ever]

Bardsley 45k a week or Vitinho 15k a week?

I appreciate the overall point of your post but I’d still be tempted by the Bardsley option on this one.

[CoolClaret]

That isn’t a knock on Dyche either, a fine achievement to cling onto PL survival for so many years with such an old team filled to the brim with players nobody else wanted.

It was always going to get progressively worse though because Dyche built for the right now with zero thoughts about the health of the team long term. Spending £10m on a 29 year old Jay Rod then another £10m on 29 year old Weghorst wasn’t smart business long term but short term thinking.

It’s not just the transfer fees either, our wage bill was like £80m a year with bonuses on top. Paying crap like Robbie Brady 50 grand a week. That’s only sustainable in the PL. Go look where that Dyche squad went to, half of them are retired or lower league.

Odobert and Koleosho for £13m combined on a combined £35k a week

Or

Robbie Brady £13m on 50k a week.

Bardsley 45k a week or Vitinho 15k a week?

Stephens 1m 50k a week or Cullen 2m 20k a week?

It’s an absolute no brainier business wise

1) That's cherry-picking because there are plenty that were flipped for a profit, or stayed at the club for a substantial amount of time where it was a good ROI

2) The revenue streams of remaining in the PL for 6 seasons/one yoyo massively offsets wage discrepancies and other operating costs and is what allowed the club to do things like install a state-of-the-art training facility and have 0 debts with cash in the bank.

It really isn't as straight forward / 'fag packet' maths as you're alluding to - not to mention we don't actually know the wage budget for this season.

[KRBFC]

1) That's cherry-picking because there are plenty that were flipped for a profit, or stayed at the club for a substantial amount of time where it was a good ROI

2) The revenue streams of remaining in the PL for 6 seasons/one yoyo massively offsets wage discrepancies and other operating costs and is what allowed the club to do things like install a state-of-the-art training facility and have 0 debts with cash in the bank.

It really isn't as straight forward / 'fag packet' maths as you're alluding to - not to mention we don't actually know the wage budget for this season.
[/quote

You say that’s cherry picking ok, how many of that 25 man squad remained in the PL? 5? And one was likely because he was available for free. The rest? Dale Stephens and Lennon went from 50k pay checks to retirement Bardsley 50k to League Two. That’s not a good sign


That ridiculously high wage bill with bonuses was pretty much eating the TV money, you’re treading water messing around and making no real forward progress. Just waiting for the inevitable relegation then you’re left with a bunch of tosh on PL wages who nobody else wants.

[bigdavethemaddog]

Anyone could manage Rangers and get that sort of ratio.

He massively underachieved with Villa.

He’s massively underachieving in his current role with the squad he’s got.

He just isn’t a good manager. At best he’s very, very average but because of his name he’s been given opportunities way beyond his abilities.

bearing in mind he was up against the worst Celtic team in history for a full season and still only won 1 of 3 trophies available that season (St Johnstone winning the other two)

[Big Vinny K]

None of Bardsley, Lennon, Stephens or Brady were on £50k a week - that is pure fabrication.

Bardsley and Stephens both on £30k (which was also way too much btw for a reserve defender and someone who could not run)

Reality is by the end of Dyche’s reign there were big issues with our model and the size of the wage bill and right now it also looks like we clearly have issues based on an a very different approach which looks very likely that it will lead to relegation

As usual most balanced fans understand that the answer is somewhere in the middle

[CoolClaret]

It's so boring continuously going over this.

Demonstrably false because we shifted enough of them to finance last season's promotion, AND it just shows how much Dyche was getting out of a lot of the players when investment into the team was curtailed.

Not to mention, you skirted the fact that we did have a significant amount of cash as liquid prior to the ALK takeover which could at any moment finance incomings, and in his tenure financed other important things - training ground, new accessibility stands etc.

Dyche worked with a budget allotted and brought in a **** ton of revenue by remaining in the PL - if Garlick wants to sell, and he's saying no more upfront money going into the playing XI but here's a wage budget then you're not going to get many youngsters on frees that will help you remain in the PL.

So boring to suggest that Dyche only wanted ready-made PL pros and had little care for the medium-long term, it's really lazy tbh.

The circumstances dictated the course of action.

Of course a balance is needed to ensure health of a club but there are a lot of factors at play here.

Also have to bear in mind the high probability that a significant decrease in player salaries would have more than likely been tied in to the players' contracts, if relegation was to occur... Crouch and others have been on record saying there are wage reducitons around 45% - so that is some natural risk mitigation even for players on high wages.

[Quickenthetempo]

None of Bardsley, Lennon, Stephens or Brady were on £50k a week - that is pure fabrication.

Bardsley and Stephens both on £30k (which was also way too much btw for a reserve defender and someone who could not run)

Reality is by the end of Dyche’s reign there were big issues with our model and the size of the wage bill and right now it also looks like we clearly have issues based on an a very different approach which looks very likely that it will lead to relegation

As usual most balanced fans understand that the answer is somewhere in the middle

How do you know what the players were earning? We all have a guess like but you are saying it like you have seen their wage slips.

[BurnleyFC]

I’d rather have Vinny over any of those names in that table, even after the inevitable relegation this season.

[Big Vinny K]

How do you know what the players were earning? We all have a guess like but you are saying it like you have seen their wage slips.

Because both Stephens and Bardsley’s deals and renewals (for Bardsley) were well and consistently reported.
And in terms of the others at the time of Brady it was reported that we had no players getting paid this (our wage bill was much lower then that the last couple of years) and for Lennon that just seems a ludicrous amount given his age and he was without a club (it’s Lennon second time round)

There are some sources of our player wage breakdowns which look pretty sensible and do align in total to the total wage bills at the time.

We are not going to be paying Bardsley and Stephens the same we were paying Tarks and Mee (before his last increase with us)…..because that would mean we would be paying those actually playing the same or more and that would be a lot more than our total wage bills during these seasons.

[Spijed]

Brighton and Brentford have done very well at building young sides, selling a few and keeping the conveyor belt going, whilst remaining competitive.

We are years behind Brighton in the process, we’ve been forced into a huge turnover of players in the last two summer windows for obvious reasons. Now we’ve got a squad built I expect we will see far less of a turnover each year and some stability in the group.

A big outgoing to restock the conveyor belt, like Brentford did when they sold Watkins, Maupay and Benrahma and replaced them with Toney and Mbuemo. Like Brighton have sold Macallister and Caicedo recently to further invest in the conveyor belt.

Every team wants players who other teams want, we want the best players possible to be the best team possible, so we have to buy and develop them. That takes time, patience and ups and downs.

Under Dyche we had a squad filled with players who nobody else wanted to pay a fee for, £13m on Robbie Brady and no doubt 50 grand a week, that’s an expensive investment for a poor player. Vydra, Bardsley, Rodriguez, Pieters, Lowton I could go on and on, no other club would buy those from us, we were stuck with them until they left on free transfers to a significantly lower level.

But both Brighton and Brentford have wealthy owners whose money has helped both a great deal.

That money won't ever get repaid, especially in the case of Tony Bloom.

Our investors will want theirs back at sometime.

In which case how can we ever model ourselves on those clubs when we have to pay any profits back but those clubs don't?

[Quickenthetempo]

Because both Stephens and Bardsley’s deals and renewals (for Bardsley) were well and consistently reported.
And in terms of the others at the time of Brady it was reported that we had no players getting paid this (our wage bill was much lower then that the last couple of years) and for Lennon that just seems a ludicrous amount given his age and he was without a club (it’s Lennon second time round)

There are some sources of our player wage breakdowns which look pretty sensible and do align in total to the total wage bills at the time.

We are not going to be paying Bardsley and Stephens the same we were paying Tarks and Mee (before his last increase with us)…..because that would mean we would be paying those actually playing the same or more and that would be a lot more than our total wage bills during these seasons.

So you don't know for sure?

When Bardsley came in I was told from a reliable source he was on 45k a week. He was shaking his head in disbelief as he told me.
I only have his word to go on but it made sense. We brought a free transfer (who tend to get bigger wages than those with a fee) in from a club who paid higher wages than we did.

[KRBFC]

None of Bardsley, Lennon, Stephens or Brady were on £50k a week - that is pure fabrication.

Stephens widely reported to be on 45 grand a week

[KRBFC]

It's so boring continuously going over this.

Demonstrably false because we shifted enough of them to finance last season's promotion, AND it just shows how much Dyche was getting out of a lot of the players when investment into the team was curtailed.


Dyche worked with a budget allotted and brought in a **** ton of revenue by remaining in the PL - if Garlick wants to sell, and he's saying no more upfront money going into the playing XI but here's a wage budget then you're not going to get many youngsters on frees that will help you remain in the PL.

So boring to suggest that Dyche only wanted ready-made PL pros and had little care for the medium-long term, it's really lazy tbh.

The circumstances dictated the course of action.

Of course a balance is needed to ensure health of a club but there are a lot of factors at play here.

You didn’t read my post, I said this isn’t a knock on Dyche more praise for getting what he did out of a group of players who nobody else wanted. It’s not lazy to suggest Dyche signed for the here and now it’s just a fact.

[KRBFC]

But both Brighton and Brentford have wealthy owners whose money has helped both a great deal.

That money won't ever get repaid, especially in the case of Tony Bloom.

Our investors will want theirs back at sometime.

In which case how can we ever model ourselves on those clubs when we have to pay any profits back but those clubs don't?

Who do we have to pay profit on transfers back too? Is there any proof ALK have taken money from selling players?

Is it not possible ALK see the profit in selling the club eventually….