Recruiting character

[JR1882]

It's widely recognized the outright figure wouldn't be anywhere near the £30m so it's not that that he rejected he would have had to jump through so many hoops for that max figure to be realized. Offering £30m unconditionally would have probably ensured he left Stamford bridge.

The worst part is going from being willing to pay 30m (or upto) for Maatsen to having no number 2 target and then signing no one, just bizarre. Then just fielding Taylor who wasn’t fancied by VK in the league below.

[Jakubclaret]

Chelsea accepted our offer, whatever it was. Maatsen didn’t want to leave - had nothing to do with the fee.

Allegedly.

[Elizabeth]

At least add some reasoning behind your dismissive reply.

It's very clear what I'm saying

[Jakubclaret]

The worst part is going from being willing to pay 30m (or upto) for Maatsen to having no number 2 target and then signing no one, just bizarre. Then just fielding Taylor who wasn’t fancied by VK in the league below.

I know it's bonkers. If that was the intent & that money was available for disposal (allegedly being the key operative word) there's no way on god's green earth that nobody else was available fitting the bill considering just how much money was available to be spent.

[DCWat]

It's very clear what I'm saying

No, not it’s not.

You simply said “that is not the problem”.

You offered no explanation as to what the problem is, or what your solution might be.

[Elizabeth]

No, not it’s not.

You simply said “that is not the problem”.

You offered no explanation as to what the problem is, or what your solution might be.

I don't need to say what the problem is in the context of the post I was replying to. You seem to be taking this personally on behalf of the poster

[Goliath]

The worst part is going from being willing to pay 30m (or upto) for Maatsen to having no number 2 target and then signing no one, just bizarre. Then just fielding Taylor who wasn’t fancied by VK in the league below.

True but also its reasonable to think that Taylor has impressed Kompany and he no longer thinks its as urgent to get a first choice left back. Not having a backup though is absolutely nuts. Im not including Delcroix because hes a centre half and looks pretty poor at left back

[DCWat]

I don't need to say what the problem is in the context of the post I was replying to. You seem to be taking this personally on behalf of the poster

Not at all - I just don’t see the point of the reply without any further detail to explain your thinking.

You’re entitled to your view (whatever that may be) but you’re hardly promoting healthy debate on a message board without providing some reasoning.

[Elizabeth]

Not at all - I just don’t see the point of the reply without any further detail to explain your thinking.

You’re entitled to your view (whatever that may be) but you’re hardly promoting healthy debate on a message board without providing some reasoning.

Give it a rest

[DCWat]

Give it a rest

[boatshed bill]

Give it a rest

Don't even bother, Liz

[Elizabeth]

Don't even bother, Liz

I do wish you would call me Elizabeth , William x

[boatshed bill]

I do wish you would call me Elizabeth , William x

Sometimes I call you Lizzie, Elizabeth

[Elizabeth]

Of course you do and if you want to call me Beth that is ok too

[NewClaret]

It's widely recognized the outright figure wouldn't be anywhere near the £30m so it's not that that he rejected he would have had to jump through so many hoops for that max figure to be realized. Offering £30m unconditionally would have probably ensured he left Stamford bridge.

Well they accepted the offer and the money was going to Chelsea on the terms agreed. He had the option to join and didn’t fancy it which is fair enough.

[Jakubclaret]

Well they accepted the offer and the money was going to Chelsea on the terms agreed. He had the option to join and didn’t fancy it which is fair enough.

Aside from wanting to nail down a place another reason could have been he wasn't incentivised enough to make the switch whatever the particulars of the deal chelsea & burnley had supposedly agreed to. I agree with the general gist of the point you are trying to convey about the commitment or should I say lack of by the way otherwise he would have accepted the likely reduction.

[Tinribs]

Maatsen was Claret through and through.

Hahahahaha

[boatshed bill]

Aside from wanting to nail down a place another reason could have been he wasn't incentivised enough to make the switch whatever the particulars of the deal chelsea & burnley had supposedly agreed to. I agree with the general gist of the point you are trying to convey about the commitment or should I say lack of by the way otherwise he would have accepted the likely reduction.

De-incentivesed: could be money, contract, weather. Whatever deal we could have had with Chelsea ends up irrelevant if he had what he considered to be better options.

[NewClaret]

Aside from wanting to nail down a place another reason could have been he wasn't incentivised enough to make the switch whatever the particulars of the deal chelsea & burnley had supposedly agreed to. I agree with the general gist of the point you are trying to convey about the commitment or should I say lack of by the way otherwise he would have accepted the likely reduction.

Possibly. He was doing what he was advised both for the good of his career and pocket I imagine. And I’m sure it was the right advice for him.

Tbh I don’t think Maatsen massively improves this side, we need defenders who can defend primarily and always will in this league. He’d have been targeted (all the Chelsea fans have commented on how easily bullied he was in cameos) and so we might even be worse off. There’d probably be massive threads of people arguing for/against him vs Charlie, like Trafford v Muric.

So probably best all round

[spt_claret]

The worst part is going from being willing to pay 30m (or upto) for Maatsen to having no number 2 target and then signing no one, just bizarre. Then just fielding Taylor who wasn’t fancied by VK in the league below.

Quillindschy Hartman was linked early in the summer, that massively excited me. We'd have got him for a lot less than Maatsen at the time too, 17m. Not now, now he's broken into and scored for the Dutch team. West Ham were linked at the time too I can see them going back in for him but he'll cost more now. 4 months older than Maatsen, 6 foot 1, can invert, good in the air and creatively. Seemed an ideal replacement to me.

[Jakubclaret]

Possibly. He was doing what he was advised both for the good of his career and pocket I imagine. And I’m sure it was the right advice for him.

Tbh I don’t think Maatsen massively improves this side, we need defenders who can defend primarily and always will in this league. He’d have been targeted (all the Chelsea fans have commented on how easily bullied he was in cameos) and so we might even be worse off. There’d probably be massive threads of people arguing for/against him vs Charlie, like Trafford v Muric.

So probably best all round

It's easy to have a bid accepted knowing full well it'll never happen because you know the player won't accept the personal terms. It kind of makes the bid a mockery to start with that's how I see it. The position we are in it's almost impossible not to make a convincing case for the 3 IM HTB NT improving things.

[NewClaret]

It's easy to have a bid accepted knowing full well it'll never happen because you know the player won't accept the personal terms. It kind of makes the bid a mockery to start with that's how I see it. The position we are in it's almost impossible not to make a convincing case for the 3 IM HTB NT improving things.

I very much doubt we placed a bid not expecting to be able to agree terms with IM. Although I’m shocked we did it without being certain he’d join if we agreed the fee.

[NewClaret]

Quillindschy Hartman was linked early in the summer, that massively excited me. We'd have got him for a lot less than Maatsen at the time too, 17m. Not now, now he's broken into and scored for the Dutch team. West Ham were linked at the time too I can see them going back in for him but he'll cost more now. 4 months older than Maatsen, 6 foot 1, can invert, good in the air and creatively. Seemed an ideal replacement to me.

I reckon he was the other LB Matt Williams mentioned in his interview that we tried to sign. Mustn’t have fancied it here either.

[Jakubclaret]

I very much doubt we placed a bid not expecting to be able to agree terms with IM. Although I’m shocked we did it without being certain he’d join if we agreed the fee.

The money was allegedly there & a replacement wasn't incoming that tells me all I need to know.

[StayingDown4Ever]

At least add some reasoning behind your dismissive reply.

You have watched Jay Rod this season haven’t you?

[Vegas Claret]

O'Shea is growing into it, it's all going to be too late for this season though

[claretspice]

Agree - no connect at all now. The 'character' philosophy which served us so well has gone now and those players still here are hardly involved in games.

I think there is a bit of a danger of overdoing this myself. Of the team last night, Brownhill and JBG were absolutely Dyche signings of that ilk (and so was Taylor who wouldve played if fit) and Cullen, O'Shea and Ekdal appear to me obvious candidates who easily could have been - from the outside they look very much the mould he tended to build around (and Delcroix may be too). Of the rest, I believe we once tried to sign Berge so he can ne added to that list too. Equally, I'd argue Foster has shown huge character this season and might easily have been a Dyche signing, and in a different way so has Trafford given the glare of publicity he's dealt with commendably whilst learning on the job.

I also think the character of Beyer, Vitinho and Al-Dakhil hasn't been greatly questioned even if their readiness for the Premier League has been and that probably even extends to Odobert's defensive readiness. Whilst there are others with question marks I think as big an issue in each case is their adaptation from other leagues and the big lesson this season for VK is that trying to do too much of that too fast leads to problems (perhaps including a split within the squad between those attuned to that demand and those who arent - i don't kmow but i know that has been an issue elsewhere).

I do think though that there is a point about culture. Dyche has shown this at Everton - he's taken some players whose fight had been questioned and by setting a no excuses culture has fashioned those players into apparent street fighters. He did the same at Burnley (see Defour's self acknowledged growing pains settling in) and I think that culture of facing up and not turning your back (see deflected first goal at Villa), working back tenaciously (see penalty build up at Villa) is what we have lost a bit- perhaps in part because we were good enough that didn't matter last season. That is about expectations set from the top and then self regulated by the players.

All of this needs to be reflected against the fact we are struggling and have been a bit unfortunate throughout the season with fixtures (very tough start at home) decisions, and some injuries - once a team is losing the dynamic changes (the old adage about team spirit being an illusion glimpsed in the aftermath of success). Confidence is obviously very fragile and there is a particular risk here with youth - picking those players up and lifting their chins after accumulated losses is a new thing for Kompany- he didn't experience that as a player and he hasn't previously as a manager.

[Colburn_Claret]

Hmm. I agree some of the new signing haven’t worked out but not sure about this argument. In terms of the character, you’d probably put Brownhill as the kind you’re alluding to, yet he was one of the worst players on the pitch tonight. I think things are just amplified because we’ve not being good enough and the manager is making some big errors both tactically and in terms of selection.

Brownhill isn't a leader, which is why him occasionally wearing the captains arm band, highlights a major flaw with this team.
When you are winning you don't need a captain, players confidence carries the performances.
When you're losing......heads can drop, it isn't a lack of effort, just an inner fear. You need a Ben Mee, a Tarks, a Grezza, a Joey Barton who can push players on, lift heads, bark instructions.
They don't need to be expensive, or the most talented, character is hard to define and impossible to teach, but if you can bring it to the team it's priceless.
We have a few weeks to pull off a miracle.

[IanMcL]

Maatsen would have been destroyed, as a fullback, in the Prem. Charlie Taylor is an excellent defender.

I think Mr Kompany totally misjudged his squad capability and need for the Prem, given he wanted Maatsen badly. This season is down to Mr K decisions.

[Colburn_Claret]

Maatsen would have been destroyed, as a fullback, in the Prem. Charlie Taylor is an excellent defender.

I think Mr Kompany totally misjudged his squad capability and need for the Prem, given he wanted Maatsen badly. This season is down to Mr K decisions.

Not a question for you in particular Ian, but do you not feel we all misjudged the Prem.
Personally I was surprised how much so many teams had improved over just 12 months away.
VK has been abroad for 4 years, and I'm sure it's taken an even bigger jump in that time span.

[Westleigh]

Not a question for you in particular Ian, but do you not feel we all misjudged the Prem.
Personally I was surprised how much so many teams had improved over just 12 months away.
VK has been abroad for 4 years, and I'm sure it's taken an even bigger jump in that time span.

Personally I think that the biggest mistake ,and I reckon most fans saw it coming was the failure to realise the physique of the Premier League teams ,and unless your name is Messi having a 13 stone 6’2” midfielder against the likes of Cullen and Brownhill was going to be a disaster.

[Spijed]

Not a question for you in particular Ian, but do you not feel we all misjudged the Prem.
Personally I was surprised how much so many teams had improved over just 12 months away.
VK has been abroad for 4 years, and I'm sure it's taken an even bigger jump in that time span.

But even going quite a few seasons back teams have always struggled hence the 11 points Derby got. There are many instances of other teams getting few points. Even Villa got just 17 in 2016.

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/09/lowes ... e-history/

[IanMcL]

Not a question for you in particular Ian, but do you not feel we all misjudged the Prem.
Personally I was surprised how much so many teams had improved over just 12 months away.
VK has been abroad for 4 years, and I'm sure it's taken an even bigger jump in that time span.

Not so sure about the misjudging by us. It's always improving and very difficult to score a goal, against most teams.

Signing players with no experience, young and no proven goalscorer in the middle, is not a recipe for survival.

That is down to the manager, who has a one track mind. To bring on youth effectively, you have to have an experienced core, so they learn on the pitch.

[Papabendi]

I think there is a bit of a danger of overdoing this myself. Of the team last night, Brownhill and JBG were absolutely Dyche signings of that ilk (and so was Taylor who wouldve played if fit) and Cullen, O'Shea and Ekdal appear to me obvious candidates who easily could have been - from the outside they look very much the mould he tended to build around (and Delcroix may be too). Of the rest, I believe we once tried to sign Berge so he can ne added to that list too. Equally, I'd argue Foster has shown huge character this season and might easily have been a Dyche signing, and in a different way so has Trafford given the glare of publicity he's dealt with commendably whilst learning on the job.

I also think the character of Beyer, Vitinho and Al-Dakhil hasn't been greatly questioned even if their readiness for the Premier League has been and that probably even extends to Odobert's defensive readiness. Whilst there are others with question marks I think as big an issue in each case is their adaptation from other leagues and the big lesson this season for VK is that trying to do too much of that too fast leads to problems (perhaps including a split within the squad between those attuned to that demand and those who arent - i don't kmow but i know that has been an issue elsewhere).

I do think though that there is a point about culture. Dyche has shown this at Everton - he's taken some players whose fight had been questioned and by setting a no excuses culture has fashioned those players into apparent street fighters. He did the same at Burnley (see Defour's self acknowledged growing pains settling in) and I think that culture of facing up and not turning your back (see deflected first goal at Villa), working back tenaciously (see penalty build up at Villa) is what we have lost a bit- perhaps in part because we were good enough that didn't matter last season. That is about expectations set from the top and then self regulated by the players.

All of this needs to be reflected against the fact we are struggling and have been a bit unfortunate throughout the season with fixtures (very tough start at home) decisions, and some injuries - once a team is losing the dynamic changes (the old adage about team spirit being an illusion glimpsed in the aftermath of success). Confidence is obviously very fragile and there is a particular risk here with youth - picking those players up and lifting their chins after accumulated losses is a new thing for Kompany- he didn't experience that as a player and he hasn't previously as a manager.

Another Claret on the spice again.

[Big Vinny K]

For those still thinking Maatsen is a rubbish defender and that he was definitely going to Dortmund to play in midfield as he was clearly not a good enough full back…..

He started his first game as left back.
They won 3-0
Maatsen by all accounts had a great game and on a few reports was chosen as MoM.
Chelsea are now saying any deal to buy him would need to be at £35m.

Not a bad debut for a player some thought wasn’t good enough for us as a defender in the championship.

[ChorltonCharlie]

This whole thread does have the hallmarks of old men shouting at the sky. We're not doing well, so we can't just have it that our players/manager aren't good enough, or a bit of both. It has to be made personal by questioning attitude and leadership. Some footballers are lazy and have bad attitudes, but most don't. They wouldn't have got to this level without a good work ethic. Spice's post above is very much on the money. Confidence is a huge issue and isn't helping. There's also an issue with body language, which can be a red herring. Amdouni is a great example of that. He can appear to be going through the motions with his work rate, but I doubt he'd have survived in the first team this long if he was. When all said and done, VK and his coaching team will know exactly how hard the players are working and they'll see first hand the leadership in the dressing room and on the pitch.

One of the main issues is the current set up of the team. We've changed to a 4-4-2. At times it's almost back to basics jumpers for goalposts. We've sacrificed any kind of high press for an organised two banks of 4. The priority is often to get back into shape with even the two strikers dropping deep out of possession. It's had some success, but it also has made us into a very passive team which appears to play without aggression. It's almost ironic that we're trying to do what Dyche was so good at. I wouldn't be surprised if VK is actually trying to learn from Dyche, but what we haven't got right is the tenacity you need to make it work. When Everton beat us in December they gave us a masterclass in it. Just like a high press, a mid-block requires team work, organisation and good reactions to triggers. I don't think we're getting that balance right which has resulted in the passive team. That to me is not a lack of effort, just a team coming to terms with what's expected of them.

[Goliath]

This whole thread does have the hallmarks of old men shouting at the sky. We're not doing well, so we can't just have it that our players/manager aren't good enough, or a bit of both. It has to be made personal by questioning attitude and leadership. Some footballers are lazy and have bad attitudes, but most don't. They wouldn't have got to this level without a good work ethic. Spice's post above is very much on the money. Confidence is a huge issue and isn't helping. There's also an issue with body language, which can be a red herring. Amdouni is a great example of that. He can appear to be going through the motions with his work rate, but I doubt he'd have survived in the first team this long if he was. When all said and done, VK and his coaching team will know exactly how hard the players are working and they'll see first hand the leadership in the dressing room and on the pitch.

One of the main issues is the current set up of the team. We've changed to a 4-4-2. At times it's almost back to basics jumpers for goalposts. We've sacrificed any kind of high press for an organised two banks of 4. The priority is often to get back into shape with even the two strikers dropping deep out of possession. It's had some success, but it also has made us into a very passive team which appears to play without aggression. It's almost ironic that we're trying to do what Dyche was so good at. I wouldn't be surprised if VK is actually trying to learn from Dyche, but what we haven't got right is the tenacity you need to make it work. When Everton beat us in December they gave us a masterclass in it. Just like a high press, a mid-block requires team work, organisation and good reactions to triggers. I don't think we're getting that balance right which has resulted in the passive team. That to me is not a lack of effort, just a team coming to terms with what's expected of them.

This is spot on and what worries me slightly. Everyone could see we needed to tighten up a lot but i'm surprised with how big the change is tactically. We seem to have recruited for a certain style of player then done a complete gear change mid season so we now have a load of players that don't really fit the system, hence JBG playing so much as he is one that's more used to what's now needed of the wide men.

We seem to be caught between styles slightly and I wonder if there's some slight confusion with the players in what's being asked from them. They've gone to being drilled daily in a certain style of play which Kompany said takes a specific number of sessions to get to grips with fully (id love to know how he calculated this number), to then being told to sit in a narrow 442 in a totally different style. Does Kompany really have full belief in this system in the way Dyche did? I very much doubt it and that could be a problem.

[Westleigh]

Only consistent tactic that 100% stands out is when we kick off the ball always goes back to Trafford who then tries to pick out Amdouni in the old inside left position,( this worked against Sheff Utd ) when Jay Rod scored in the 1st minute but not since.