More FFP breaches…

[RVclaret]

Forest’s ’mitigating circumstance’ of selling Brennan Johnson in a completely new financial period is an interesting one.

[agreenwood]

Can’t allow myself to care really. The VAR decisions against us (by my count, at least impacting a minimum certain four additional points, but also possibly another four on top as a maybe) have utterly melted my belief in us staying up as it just feels we’re fighting against more than eleven players. I realise that it is simple negligence from officials as opposed to corruption per se, but it doesn’t change my feelings.

Everton could probably suffer another ten point deduction and still stay up, such is the farce that this league currently is.

I don’t care about the points deductions too much either and I wouldn’t particularly feel much joy if we survived as a result of them.

If the reports about the timescales for all of this to conclude are correct, I’m more concerned that we might be in a position for several weeks after the season of not knowing which division we’ll be in.

[Vegas Claret]

The Premier League statement is interesting

Everton and Nottingham Forest confirm Premier League PSR breaches
https://www.premierleague.com/news/3858986

as this quote shows

"Everton FC and Nottingham Forest FC have each confirmed to the Premier League that they are in breach of the League’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR). This is as a result of sustaining losses above the permitted thresholds for the assessment period ending Season 2022/23."

Contradicts everything the clubs say (as expected)

[quoonbeatz]

Forest’s ’mitigating circumstance’ of selling Brennan Johnson in a completely new financial period is an interesting one.

"We cheated because we wanted more money" doesn't really cut it does it.

[Chester Perry]

Presumably with both Everton and Nottingham Forest admitting breaking FFP and being referred for a decision surely means that every other club has passed FFP for the same period.

or at least have claimed to - admitting it upfront tends to lead to a more lenient hearing and punishment, though Everton saying the rules that have been in place for 5 years are crap deserves derision, they were part of the body that agreed to them being put in place - hindsight is great but you work to a rulebook sou signed up to.

I would not have expected the Premier League to have gone though all submissions forensically by this date

[Vegas Claret]

Forest’s ’mitigating circumstance’ of selling Brennan Johnson in a completely new financial period is an interesting one.

If my memory is correct (it's often not so feel free to correct me), Forest turned down bids for Johnson in the previous window, had they sold him they wouldn't be facing charges. Might be hard for them to validate an argument based on him

[Chester Perry]

"We cheated because we wanted more money" doesn't really cut it does it.

As Everton found in their hearing in October

[Anonymous Claret]

Why shouldn't Everton be given another 10 point penalty? They were told for the 21/22 season to get their house in order to avoid breaching the PSR rules by the PL. They told the PL they knew what they need to do and that they would get their house in order. However they chose to stick 2 fingers up at the PL and deliberately break the rules. So they are either very stupid to break those rules the following season or they have stuck 2 fingers up again and showed them their a**e into the bargain.
If they both escape any punishment what kind of example does that send to other clubs who may consider rule breaking?
You may as well ask the question 'What is the point of the PSR rules?'
On a separate matter they really need to sort out the City charges also.

[BobSykes]

Hilarious

We'll probably still go down anyway....

[DAVETHEVICAR]

Think the decision for the 10 points deduction given will be heard before the other charge is heard.
Can’t see Points deduction being given but fines replaced.
Otherwise the Premier League are going to lose Everton Forest Chelsea Manchester City in next two years or so and possibly Manchester Utd and WHU.
My opinion only of course

[distortiondave]

It's pretty clear that the reason for the appeal decision taking place after the season ends is so the Premier League can fudge the result if they wish.

[quoonbeatz]

As Everton found in their hearing in October

Still got away with it though.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Everton should get another deduction and be made to knock their new ground down even if it is for the people and to add to the glamour of the premier league!

[aggi]

Presumably with both Everton and Nottingham Forest admitting breaking FFP and being referred for a decision surely means that every other club has passed FFP for the same period.

Not quite. The end of December submission is for those clubs who made a loss in previous years. It would be possible to make a massive loss in one year and breach FFP. Unlikely though.

Forest’s ’mitigating circumstance’ of selling Brennan Johnson in a completely new financial period is an interesting one.

I can kind of see where they are coming from here. They sold him at the start of the season (in terms of transfer window) so won't have the benefit of him this season so could argue that they are abiding by the spirit of the sustainability rules (i.e. to ensure that clubs are run on a sustainable basis). Obviously it would have to be adjusted in the next year's accounts so they don't get the double benefit of that sale.

The sensible thing would probably have been to extend their accounting period.

or at least have claimed to - admitting it upfront tends to lead to a more lenient hearing and punishment, though Everton saying the rules that have been in place for 5 years are crap deserves derision, they were part of the body that agreed to them being put in place - hindsight is great but you work to a rulebook sou signed up to.

I would not have expected the Premier League to have gone though all submissions forensically by this date

I think Everton's point is that things have moved on in 5 years with significant movements in interest rates, energy, raw materials, transfers, etc and FFP is an absolute number rather than something that is linked to the wider climate.

[Paul Waine]

Forest’s ’mitigating circumstance’ of selling Brennan Johnson in a completely new financial period is an interesting one.

Is that what is known as "clutching at a straw man" argument?

[Vegas Claret]

is this correct ?
https://x.com/talkSPORT/status/1746878693597716987?s=20

[Chester Perry]

I think Everton's point is that things have moved on in 5 years with significant movements in interest rates, energy, raw materials, transfers, etc and FFP is an absolute number rather than something that is linked to the wider climate.

they are right that things have moved on, but the Premier League reviews it's rules every year, this could have been adjusted by the PL if enough clubs wanted it - The issue for me is that they appear to arguing this in hindsight and after their acknowledged attempt to be creative with rule interpretations failed - much of Everton's problems come down to poor management by the then board and the crazy impulsive spending by the 'owner' without ratifying it with the people he employed to run the club. Throw in the downright failure to obtain solid financing for the new stadium at a time when such financing was at historic lows and there is little to have sympathy for regarding the situation in which they now find themselves in.

A proper investigation of their USM links down the line could further compound their worries if it ever happens. It is fair to say Everton have had enough free passes from the Premier League in recent years, they just had to come to an end.

[gandhisflipflop]

When will we know if they will get a points deduction or not?

[THEWELLERNUT70]

When will we know if they will get a points deduction or not?

Sky sports reporting that it would be 5 days after the current season ends

[Chester Perry]

When will we know if they will get a points deduction or not?

5 days after the end of the season

a cynic might think the deduction will be just enough to allow them to retain their Premier League status

[Sproggy]

What on earth is Henry Winter on? They're building a nice new stadium so they should be able to cheat with impunity?

That's a stadium they wouldn't be able to afford if they'd been relegated - which they avoided using players they didn't have the money to buy.

B*****s to Everton - what about the clubs relegated at their expense?

[JohnMac]

I'd laugh my socks off if we survived because both Clubs were relegated as a result of their blatant disregard for the rules. No sympathy whatsoever and they should be joined by Chelsea and Man City and possibly look into how Man Utd seem to spend more on players and salaries than the remainder of the Premier League.

Should this happen to us down the road I would expect the same punishment.

[Goliath]

It's pretty clear that the reason for the appeal decision taking place after the season ends is so the Premier League can fudge the result if they wish.

Not sure this would work. I presume you mean they may want to fudge it if one of the teams went down because of a points deduction. Reversing this decision after the season has finished would open a huge can of worms with the team that goes down as a result of the appeal.

They could fairly argue that they would have approached the games differently if they new they needed more points, Its completely unfair on teams to have absolutely no idea what points total they might need, especially if it came down to the last day. Its very possible that a team could only need 1 point on the last day and play cautiously accepting the point, only for the standings to be changed at a later date.

[bfcjg]

They'll be ringing Mr Bates to fight their cause .

[distortiondave]

If the last game of the season ends like this;
Everton 31pts (including -20)
Forest 31pts (including -10)
Luton 30pts
Burnley 30pts
Sheff Utd 30pts

The appeal will maintain their 10 point penalty because it doesn't effect anything, and it shows they are being tough.

But if it ends up like

Luton 30
Burnley 30
Sheff Utd 30
Everton 29
Forest 29

Forest and Everton will have their 10 point penalties reduced by enough to stay up, due to extenuating circumstances or something.

[Rick_Muller]

We ain’t getting 30 points Dave

[AGENT_CLARET]

They can take 20 points off Everton

They can take 10 points off Forest

And we'll still go down

[randomclaret2]

We ain’t getting 30 points Dave

VAR will see to that

[Stayingup]

... according to one of their top sources, "The Bobble"

https://twitter.com/ElBobble/status/1746920877805949212

Got a bad feeling any points deduction will be suspended until next season though, so not sure how much help it is to us.

It won't help us because if Everton were relegated it would be because they are third bottom. We will be either second bottom or bottom.

[distortiondave]

If Everton take another 10 point hit, they are bottom.

[Rileybobs]

Going down with Forest and Everton wouldn’t be ideal.

[NewClaret]

is this correct ?
https://x.com/talkSPORT/status/1746878693597716987?s=20

Jordan is spot on here. I didn’t know it was £250m but they got massive, massive allowances for other losses for covid, stadium, etc. He’s also right to point out the stupidity of Moshiri for saying he carried on spending to replace their non-existent midfield. Oh, that’s okay then I honestly can’t work out if the Everton fans are too ignorant or thick to see what their club has done.

Then there’s the much-overlooked fact that the PSR rules want clubs to make ANY losses at all. The maximum allowable losses are £105m to provide for scope for unexpected scenarios. Not being able to complete one transfer on time will not wash because they will always have known that’s a risk.

Personally really hope that the commissions take zero tolerance and give them both another 10 point deduction. I still think we’d go down so it’s nothing to do with that. I just think Financial doping should be treated in the same way as if a team of players were all caught taking drugs.

[123EasyasBFC]

Imagine we somehow survive in the PL as a result of this farce - how many years 'ahead of schedule' will we be then?

One more year closer to you stopping moaning hopefully

[NewClaret]

Going down with Forest and Everton wouldn’t be ideal.

Very good point and also need to be wary that at some point City will get an automatic demotion.

[Cirrus_Minor]

The Premier league has turned into Fred Karno's circus with all of the money sloshing about from Billionaire owners. It used to irritate me how we would follow the rules (before the Americans came in) whilst the likes of City and Chelsea could go through money like pump water claiming to be 'within the rules'. I have absolutely no sympathy for any clubs that are caught out, especially when the rules are so slack. I look forward to seeing how Chelsea, City, et al, try to squirm there oily way out. Yes bring it on.

[Chester Perry]

Jordan is spot on here. I didn’t know it was £250m but they got massive, massive allowances for other losses for covid, stadium, etc. He’s also right to point out the stupidity of Moshiri for saying he carried on spending to replace their non-existent midfield. Oh, that’s okay then I honestly can’t work out if the Everton fans are too ignorant or thick to see what their club has done.

Then there’s the much-overlooked fact that the PSR rules want clubs to make ANY losses at all. The maximum allowable losses are £105m to provide for scope for unexpected scenarios. Not being able to complete one transfer on time will not wash because they will always have known that’s a risk.

Personally really hope that the commissions take zero tolerance and give them both another 10 point deduction. I still think we’d go down so it’s nothing to do with that. I just think Financial doping should be treated in the same way as if a team of players were all caught taking drugs.

I have been arguing this point for a while about PSR and the allowance for losses

The true story is that clubs are only allowed to lose £15m over 3 season and are allowed to cover a further £90m in losses over the same period via a capital injection gained from a share issue. There should be rule as to how often that get out can be exercised, too many treat it as an allowable loss and because of the way the media report it almost everyone believes it to be so.

[bfcjg]

With the money we have recently spent I'm surprised we aren't in the mix.

[Chester Perry]

With the money we have recently spent I'm surprised we aren't in the mix.

Nowhere near I would say, and we won't even have had to submit accounts yet because there is unlikely to have been an aggregate loss in the last two seasons. Remember this is about losses over a 3 year cycle and two years ago we posted a huge profit. Also most of this seasons spend will be amortised over 5 years, so a suggested £100m spend only features as circa £20m for the season.

[Carlos the Great]

If they do take another 10 points off Everton I believe they will stay up which would be embarrassing for us … and if they do can we stop saying .. nobody wan is in this league we are being forced out ..

[CrosspoolClarets]

The punishment is likely to be powderpuff anyway - take Forest, if their overspending led to Awonyi, that could be a far better boost than 10 pts (if the punishment IS 10). Still in their interests to spend big and sod the rest of us.

Also worth bearing in mind that overspending last season also benefits this season.

Finally, it opens the door to Leeds and Leicester both claiming, which adds to the risk of Everton administration.

[Chester Perry]

Some interesting revelations about the Everton circumstances in this article from The Athletic which appears to show a similar set of circumstances to Forest and Brennan Johnson

Everton’s (second) alleged breach of Premier League finance rules: Could they lose points again?
https://archive.ph/Uuwac

[quoonbeatz]

It's completely ridiculous that these clubs can say "we cheated, we knew we were cheating and we fully admit that we cheated" and then say there's mitigation. There isn't.

It should be a simple automatic relegation.

[Westleigh]

Latest financial analyst on Sky saying they new the rules and broke them.end of

[distortiondave]

It's completely ridiculous that these clubs can say "we cheated, we knew we were cheating and we fully admit that we cheated" and then say there's mitigation. There isn't.

It should be a simple automatic relegation.

I agree; for sporting integrity, equality and the spirit of fair competition; but 'the brand' won't allow it.

[Vegas Claret]

Some interesting revelations about the Everton circumstances in this article from The Athletic which appears to show a similar set of circumstances to Forest and Brennan Johnson

Everton’s (second) alleged breach of Premier League finance rules: Could they lose points again?
https://archive.ph/Uuwac

jesus wept, I had no idea they tried to use the war in Ukraine as an excuse

[bobinho]

I'd laugh my socks off if we survived because both Clubs were relegated as a result of their blatant disregard for the rules. No sympathy whatsoever and they should be joined by Chelsea and Man City and possibly look into how Man Utd seem to spend more on players and salaries than the remainder of the Premier League.

Should this happen to us down the road I would expect the same punishment.

I agree John, but the only issue for me is that our punishment would happen IMMEDIATELY, there’d be no waiting around for a decision.

[Chester Perry]

jesus wept, I had no idea they tried to use the war in Ukraine as an excuse

they are lucky in some ways when you consider that Chelsea were not allowed to trade for weeks until it was agreed they could be sold - as I have been saying for years there serious questions about who really owns Everton, imagine if it could be proved it was Alisher Usmanov - there are a huge amount of charges from The Government, FA and Premier League that would be thrown at them, not to mention the private prosecutions from clubs relegated in their place.

Aside from the ownership question there are issues around fair value of sponsorships relating to USM going back years

[NewClaret]

Biggest issue for Everton is how this impacts their takeover.

777, who have a chequered history as it is, are rumoured to be briefing the press that they’re no longer confident that the takeover will be approved. Thats after lending them £150m, ~£50m on Jan 8th. I find it incredible that they lent them such a massive sum so recently without being more certain on the takeover happening, but goodness me they’ve staffed some cash at it with no guarantees it won’t just turn to bad debt.

And even if it were to go ahead, you have to ask if they’d still be willing to pay the same price with another potential points deduction looming.

[NewClaret]

they are lucky in some ways when you consider that Chelsea were not allowed to trade for weeks until it was agreed they could be sold - as I have been saying for years there serious questions about who really owns Everton, imagine if it could be proved it was Alisher Usmanov - there are a huge amount of charges from The Government, FA and Premier League that would be thrown at them, not to mention the private prosecutions from clubs relegated in their place.

Aside from the ownership question there are issues around fair value of sponsorships relating to USM going back years

I’m certain in my mind the initial spending was Usmanov/Russian money.

I’m also convinced that the 777 partners spending is Russian funded. They seem to be throwing a lot of cash at it with no guarantees the takeover will happen so my theory is it isn’t their money that’s been thrown & they have guarantees if it doesn’t go ahead they’ll get their rubles back.

But basically I have no time for the way Forest and Everton have splashed the cash in previous years in a totally reckless way and now seem offended their rule breaking is going to be punished. Only way this will ever get under control is tough sanctions.

[Chester Perry]

I’m certain in my mind the initial spending was Usmanov/Russian money.

I’m also convinced that the 777 partners spending is Russian funded. They seem to be throwing a lot of cash at it with no guarantees the takeover will happen so my theory is it isn’t their money that’s been thrown & they have guarantees if it doesn’t go ahead they’ll get their rubles back.

But basically I have no time for the way Forest and Everton have splashed the cash in previous years in a totally reckless way and now seem offended their rule breaking is going to be punished. Only way this will ever get under control is tough sanctions.

It is more or less known where the 777 partners money is coming from - they have borrowed it, some from their other companies - they are now quite well known for borrowing from Peter to pay Paul as it were

777 partners problem at the moment is that everyone they have borrowed from or who their business operations have extended credit with are now demanding monies and are prepared to go to court for them following the highly public cases that have been filed in the US, It could soon be a stampede to see who can collect their monies before the empire collapses