More FFP breaches…

[mybloodisclaret]

It is more or less known where the 777 partners money is coming from - they have borrowed it, some from their other companies - they are now quite well known for borrowing from Peter to pay Paul as it were

777 partners problem at the moment is that everyone they have borrowed from or who their business operations have extended credit with are now demanding monies and are prepared to go to court for them following the highly public cases that have been filed in the US, It could soon be a stampede to see who can collect their monies before the empire collapses

What do you think the implication is for EFC then if this was to happen Chester? If their owners are skint the club is in yet again another huge financial mess? Are we talking Glasgow Rangers?

Are we actually trying to sue Everton still or has that gone away now? Not heard anything for sometime although admit to not reading the takeover thread for some time.

[Chester Perry]

Any chance of us suing them will not be fixed until after the appeal - it is unknown if we took up the commissions invitation to register interest in pursuing damages

as for Everton, word is that there are other bidders but it seems someone is going to have to take an haircut on what is owed/what they want, given the security loan status of Rights and Media Funding (who blocked an MSP takeover last summer) it would appear they have the most significant say on who the club would go to.

The stadium is a different company and MSP have the senior loan and rights on that - they could end up taking ownership of the stadium and paying for it to complete - which would be a huge gain for them in terms of asset value to spend. Alternatively the stadium could be sold to someone to complete it and rent it back to Everton - that will cost a hell of a lot more in rent than the London Stadium and give Everton a long term cost burden.

Rumours still persist of other interested parties, but it would require 777 Partners and Farhad Moshiri to lose a lot of what hey have put into the club, perhaps with future bonus payments depending on future performance (Premier League status/European qualification) it could be that the club is forced to go into administration to resolve some of those issues

[gandhisflipflop]

5 days after the end of the season

a cynic might think the deduction will be just enough to allow them to retain their Premier League status

How is that even allowed. That is farcical. As you say it is open to manipulation.

[clansman]

Forest last game is Burnley away!!! Who knows what the position will be by then!

[RVclaret]

Oliver Kay is spot on here

‘Seen some wild takes on FFP/PSR lately. If you're spending far beyond your means, in a competition that no longer allows that, you should expect punishment.
What has cost Everton and Nottingham Forest isn't "ambition". It's chaotic management‘

https://theathletic.com/5204376/2024/01 ... nishments/

[CrosspoolClarets]

Burnley fans are used to getting the crappy end of the stick (e.g. if Everton had been punished “in year” they would have dropped not us). All these VAR and ref farces are reminding us of our place in the world too.

So I think we can all predict what happens at the end of the season. We can only control the controllable so we have to get ahead of Forest on merit with this points deduction a fall back. It’s frustrating, because of those 2 stolen points vs Luton and Forest playing two teams who didn’t remotely turn up. We’d now be level otherwise. But we have to use it to galvanise us and crack on.

[aggi]

Biggest issue for Everton is how this impacts their takeover.

777, who have a chequered history as it is, are rumoured to be briefing the press that they’re no longer confident that the takeover will be approved. Thats after lending them £150m, ~£50m on Jan 8th. I find it incredible that they lent them such a massive sum so recently without being more certain on the takeover happening, but goodness me they’ve staffed some cash at it with no guarantees it won’t just turn to bad debt.

And even if it were to go ahead, you have to ask if they’d still be willing to pay the same price with another potential points deduction looming.

I suspect 777 may be briefing that in an attempt to not scare their business associates with how much much of an absolute mess their finances are in. It was always going to be a takeover that went terribly wrong, it was just whether it went wrong before or after they managed to take over Everton.

is this correct ?
https://x.com/talkSPORT/status/1746878693597716987?s=20

Kind of, not really. It probably was around £250m but lots of stadium expenses are expressly excluded from FFP calculations (you need to exclude them or else no-one would be able to build a new stadium). Everton did also go very heavy (too much in my opinion) on their covid costs, way more than anyone else, but this was in a period that's already been approved so there's a limited amount of recourse there.


What's interesting is that a lot of their issues are the same as the issues they had last time round. If that first appeal is successful then they will probably get away with the second one too. If not, then they are likely to be on the hook for both.

A refresher on the first judgement here https://theesk.org/2023/11/19/summary-o ... -sanction/

[FCBurnley]

I guess some clubs lose points through FFP and others lose points through VAR and the rest sit happily knowing their PL status is safe for another season

[123EasyasBFC]

I can’t get my head around both Everton and Forest admitting they have breached FFP rules but still get to appeal. It’s alright saying ‘we broke them for this or that reason’ broke the rules, admitted it, face the punishment should be simple as that

[theduke]

What on earth is Henry Winter on? They're building a nice new stadium so they should be able to cheat with impunity?

That's a stadium they wouldn't be able to afford if they'd been relegated - which they avoided using players they didn't have the money to buy.

B*****s to Everton - what about the clubs relegated at their expense?

Everton used loans to pay for the day to day running of the club whilst funding the stadium themselves. The interest on the loans is what made Everton fail FFP. If they had used the loans for the stadium then the interest on them would have been dedcuted and they would have passed the £105m limit.

Part of Evertons appeal is that they have re done their accounts so that the loan interest is for the stadium and NOT day to day.

If that is succesful then both charges would be dropped

[theduke]

I can’t get my head around both Everton and Forest admitting they have breached FFP rules but still get to appeal. It’s alright saying ‘we broke them for this or that reason’ broke the rules, admitted it, face the punishment should be simple as that

Everton haven't admitted Guilt

[Chester Perry]

Everton used loans to pay for the day to day running of the club whilst funding the stadium themselves. The interest on the loans is what made Everton fail FFP. If they had used the loans for the stadium then the interest on them would have been dedcuted and they would have passed the £105m limit.

Part of Evertons appeal is that they have re done their accounts so that the loan interest is for the stadium and NOT day to day.

If that is succesful then both charges would be dropped

those loan agreements also very specifically stipulated that the moneys could not be used for the Stadium build - that is why the interest on them was found to be within PSR regulations - the commission made that clear, it is bewildering that Everton still cannot accept that, when it was Everton that signed the loan agreement

[theduke]

Do you have the evidence that they could not be for the stadium build? They have taken 2 loans out as far as i can see. 1 x from MSP Capital and 1 x from 777 that will be converted to equity when / if the takeover happens.

Why would any loan agreement stipulate that it can't be used for the stadium? That makes zero sense

[randomclaret2]

Burnley fans are used to getting the crappy end of the stick (e.g. if Everton had been punished “in year” they would have dropped not us). All these VAR and ref farces are reminding us of our place in the world too.

So I think we can all predict what happens at the end of the season. We can only control the controllable so we have to get ahead of Forest on merit with this points deduction a fall back. It’s frustrating, because of those 2 stolen points vs Luton and Forest playing two teams who didn’t remotely turn up. We’d now be level otherwise. But we have to use it to galvanise us and crack on.

Dont forget being robbed by VAR at Forest as well

[Chester Perry]

Do you have the evidence that they could not be for the stadium build? They have taken 2 loans out as far as i can see. 1 x from MSP Capital and 1 x from 777 that will be converted to equity when / if the takeover happens.

Why would any loan agreement stipulate that it can't be used for the stadium? That makes zero sense

both of those loans were not related to the October commission judgement - the loan that was covered was the one from Rights and Media Funding - the MSP loan (secured) is specifically for the stadium build, so no issue going forward or for last years £40m bridging loan by a member of that group. The 777 partners loan is unsecured and started in the current financial period is likely to not discriminate on what the funds can be used for. The issue is with the historical and still live agreement with Rights and Media Funding, of course it was those same loan agreements that led to Rights and Media Funding blocking a takeover by MSP in the summer.

[123EasyasBFC]

Everton haven't admitted Guilt

Doesn’t matter about guilt. Both have admitted to the premier league that they have breached the rules so to me that should be that.

Like forest trying to claim that by getting more money later for Johnson has meant they have breached rules but in the long run generated them more money. Well that’s tough

[theduke]

But Everton haven't admitted. The PL statement yesterday said they had, what they meant was they had given them there books

[Chester Perry]

But Everton haven't admitted. The PL statement yesterday said they had, what they meant was they had given them there books

Not true - Everton were effectively compelled to admit their guilt in this season submission by the rulings in October over multiple issues - they are angry that they have not been able to appeal those rulings prior to the timeline for this seasons submissions but were had to follow them as that is the current standard - if the Everton appeal against the October rulings is successful then it is likely the new charges will be dropped

[Chester Perry]

It is more or less known where the 777 partners money is coming from - they have borrowed it, some from their other companies - they are now quite well known for borrowing from Peter to pay Paul as it were

777 partners problem at the moment is that everyone they have borrowed from or who their business operations have extended credit with are now demanding monies and are prepared to go to court for them following the highly public cases that have been filed in the US, It could soon be a stampede to see who can collect their monies before the empire collapses

More on the source of that 777 Partners funding source and the wider issues that they are facing - I have been following it in detail all along on the MMT, this is the latest - that interest rate -ouch!!!

the problems for 777 Partners keep adding up

from Josimar Football again

Endgame
777 Partners have been hit with multiple new lawsuits, their two main sources of funding are now under investigation by corporate watchdogs, and their companies have been borrowing millions at an interest rate of 52.5 percent.
https://archive.ph/ImIsO

[Stockbrokerbelt]

Sky tv doing their best to support Everton with the reporter stating that time will tell if they are guilty of any offence, they should not be charged because they are building a new ground & if they were relegated they would lose at least 100 mil in the local economy & effect jobs. Forgive me if I’m wrong I thought Everton admitted the charges & were fighting the severity of the punishment? How do they think the economy of any of the teams who were relegated who followed the rules were effected? Corrupt prem who only care about big clubs & the prem brand.

[Vegas Claret]

that interest rate -ouch!!!

nice work if you can get it !

[Chester Perry]

nice work if you can get it !

In normal circumstances you would say it stretches the comprehension of the term usuary. However with 777 Partners it probably still isn't enough to persuade me to deal with them

[Vegas Claret]

In normal circumstances you would say it stretches the comprehension of the term usuary. However with 777 Partners it probably still isn't enough to persuade me to deal with them

[aggi]

Doesn’t matter about guilt. Both have admitted to the premier league that they have breached the rules so to me that should be that.

Like forest trying to claim that by getting more money later for Johnson has meant they have breached rules but in the long run generated them more money. Well that’s tough

Part of Forest's (somewhat weak) argument is that the EFL rules have provisions that take this kind of thing into account.

[Chester Perry]

Not sure what Everton fans think this will achieve barring giving Henry Winter something to write about in fawning tones

from The Times

Everton fan board slams ten-point deduction in 25-page statement
The club’s Fan Advisory Board has claimed their team has been punished disproportionately for breaching Premier League’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules
https://archive.ph/qAzEL

[bumba]

Not sure what Everton fans think this will achieve barring giving Henry Winter something to write about in fawning tones

from The Times

Everton fan board slams ten-point deduction in 25-page statement
The club’s Fan Advisory Board has claimed their team has been punished disproportionately for breaching Premier League’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules
https://archive.ph/qAzEL

They claim the points deduction could put the club at risk, what about the risk of the clubs relegated from there cheating? What about the risk there owner has taken with money they haven't got and cannot afford to pay back?
The only risk Everton has is themselves

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Not sure what Everton fans think this will achieve barring giving Henry Winter something to write about in fawning tones

from The Times

Everton fan board slams ten-point deduction in 25-page statement
The club’s Fan Advisory Board has claimed their team has been punished disproportionately for breaching Premier League’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules
https://archive.ph/qAzEL

I find most of Henry Winter’s writing nauseating to read but he’s reached new levels this week with his Everton campaign.

[JohnDearyMe]

Not sure what Everton fans think this will achieve barring giving Henry Winter something to write about in fawning tones

from The Times

Everton fan board slams ten-point deduction in 25-page statement
The club’s Fan Advisory Board has claimed their team has been punished disproportionately for breaching Premier League’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules
https://archive.ph/qAzEL

We need to remember what a beautiful addition their new ground will be to the Merseyside skyline

[Chester Perry]

We need to remember what a beautiful addition their new ground will be to the Merseyside skyline

I prefer to remember that they are bleating about losing a £20m a year stadium sponsorship deal (a number that Spurs have been unable to secure for their stadium (recognised as on of, if not the actual world's best) under the Heathrow flightpath that also hosts huge concerts and NFL games) having already secured a £30m fee for a preferred bidder status (when they were about to breach PSR) from a sponsor who was paying more to sponsor the training ground than Everton were getting for their Front of Shirt deal. Al from an organisation in which the owner was previously a key employee and (at the time) still a minor shareholder without any scrutiny from the Premier League. Not to mention that said sponsor was known to interview and introduce new managerial candidates on his yacht before they were engaged by the club.

[JohnDearyMe]

I prefer to remember that they are bleating about losing a £20m a year stadium sponsorship deal (a number that Spurs have been unable to secure for their stadium (recognised as on of, if not the actual world's best) under the Heathrow flightpath that also hosts huge concerts and NFL games) having already secured a £30m fee for a preferred bidder status (when they were about to breach PSR) from a sponsor who was paying more to sponsor the training ground than Everton were getting for their Front of Shirt deal. Al from an organisation in which the owner was previously a key employee and (at the time) still a minor shareholder without any scrutiny from the Premier League. Not to mention that said sponsor was known to interview and introduce new managerial candidates on his yacht before they were engaged by the club.

I was only joking and referring to one of Henry Winter's obsequious tweets from earlier this week

[Chester Perry]

I was only joking and referring to one of Henry Winter's obsequious tweets from earlier this week

I guessed it was a Winter reference, what I posted still stands and he would do well to ask some questions and look beneath the surface of football

[Chester Perry]

Well this is interesting though I am not sure it is correct

From The Mail

EXCLUSIVE Everton could demand a THIRD trial in their bid to overturn the Premier League record 10-point deduction earlier this season if their appeal next month fails
Everton received the biggest deduction in Premier League history this season
The club launched an appeal and an independent panel will hear it next month
https://archive.ph/6n7E3

Though it is difficult to understand if rule E.46 applies in cases like this, though that was my starting point

Section E: Clubs – Finance
E.46. The decision of the appeal tribunal shall be final and binding on the appellant Club

https://resources.premierleague.com/pre ... final-.pdf

[ClaretOfMancunia]

For anyone who has not read the judgement in full, the article below gives a very clear and concise summary of the situation.

https://www.blakemorgan.co.uk/sticky-to ... 10-points/

Somewhat related, does anyone know if we (Burnley) are to pursue Everton for compensation? The article finishes with the following paragraph;

As stated earlier, the Commission has the power to require Everton to pay compensation. In a hearing in March 2023, the Commission refused an application by a number of clubs (led by Leeds United but also including Nottingham Forest, Southampton, Leicester City and Burnley, all of whom – except for Nottingham Forest – were relegated during the Relevant Period) to be joined as parties to the hearing, but the Commission acknowledged those clubs had potential claims for compensation and stated that those clubs would have a period of 28 days from the Commission’s decision to make an application for compensation – that time period is now ticking and those clubs now have until mid-December to decide whether to pursue claims for compensation. It seems that Nottingham Forest may likely have little interest (or indeed unlikely have any losses to claim) as they retained their place in the Premier League, but the remaining clubs will almost certainly seek compensation on the basis that had the sanction been applied last season then they would have retained their place in the Premier League (together with the riches that come with that). The net effect of any successful compensation claims would be that Everton would be required to pay significant amounts of money to other clubs, amounts which at the very least may bring an end to the possible takeover of the club, but at worst could push the club into financial turmoil.

[NewClaret]

For anyone who has not read the judgement in full, the article below gives a very clear and concise summary of the situation.

https://www.blakemorgan.co.uk/sticky-to ... 10-points/

Somewhat related, does anyone know if we (Burnley) are to pursue Everton for compensation? The article finishes with the following paragraph;

It is a good summary. I’ve read a few but that summarises all the legal detail really well. I hadn’t known about the transfer levy arguments previously, for example.

The Everton fans seem to have all convinced themselves that this is all due to stadium costs/interest, when a) that argument was clearly disproved and the reasons explained in the judgement, and b) in any event they admitted they’d breached the PSR calcs even with that mitigation considered. They’re absolutely bang to rights.

In respect to whether we have made a claim, I suspect without question. Nobody knows for sure as it’s all confidential.

The year of the breach was the year we were relegated, so I think we have the strongest case. The other teams will argue that the points deduction should then have been applied the following season which I think is a much weaker argument. I imagine all parties will be in negotiations for a settlement too.

[ClaretOfMancunia]

It is a good summary. I’ve read a few but that summarises all the legal detail really well. I hadn’t known about the transfer levy arguments previously, for example.

The Everton fans seem to have all convinced themselves that this is all due to stadium costs/interest, when a) that argument was clearly disproved and the reasons explained in the judgement, and b) in any event they admitted they’d breached the PSR calcs even with that mitigation considered. They’re absolutely bang to rights.

In respect to whether we have made a claim, I suspect without question. Nobody knows for sure as it’s all confidential.

The year of the breach was the year we were relegated, so I think we have the strongest case. The other teams will argue that the points deduction should then have been applied the following season which I think is a much weaker argument. I imagine all parties will be in negotiations for a settlement too.

Will be interesting to see whether they get any points back on appeal. The argument from Everton for this now appears to center mainly on the fact the punishment was "disproportionate" and/or "arbitrary". Many of the fans are clueless though and believe all of this is just a PL conspiracy designed to see them go down, which I don't buy at all. A club that size with a new stadium is a (financial) asset to the PL at the very least.

I imagine we have made a claim against them too, as you say, being the club with probably the strongest argument for compensation of any. I do wonder if the prospect of paying this will put off their potential buyers (777). They'll really be up the creek if that happens, as they've loaned tens of millions from them already just to keep the lights on (at ridiculous interest rates).

[IanMcL]

Are we top yet?

[Roosterbooster]

It's interesting reading. Some of their arguments are pretty weak. Some are downright ridiculous. Part of their arguments seem to revolve around being unlucky, having previously gambled unsuccessfully. If the punishment gets overturned (even in part) then it just makes a mockery of the entire system

[Chester Perry]

Everton's appeal hearing starts tomorrow - it will be a few weeks before we hear the judgement

from The BBC

Everton points deduction: Appeal hearing to begin on Wednesday
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68141459