Stability or Tinkering

[Darthlaw]

From the Trafford thread I made a quip about him playing in front of the eighth different defence this season which caused me to have a look into how many different defences we've had this season and it turns out (in the league alone) we have started with 11 different defence lineups this season!

Whilst I appreciate it is a squad game, I always think the best teams are built on a solid settled defence, which was one thing Dyche certainly maintained with Tarks, Mee and Taylor at least starting every game they were fit for together with Lowton / Bardsley only really being changed sporadically.

Do others think we should pick players to suit the opposition attack or rely on players knowing the man at the side of him inside out? Added to that is this something to add to VK's often maligned substitutions, that he is dangerously close to being a tinkerman?

[Boss Hogg]

Agree about it being ideal having a settled defence. I don’t like too many changes at once and particularly mid game with 3 subs at once in the game. It completely unsettles the side even with tiring legs.

[KRBFC]

We haven’t been able to field a settled defence though with Beyer in and out, Ekdal injured for the majority, Al Dakhil form up and down, Roberts has been dreadful and suspended too.

[StayingDown4Ever]

He’s been scratching around all season desperately trying to find a lineup at the back that doesn’t ship weak goals and he’s still not found it.

[Darthlaw]

For additional Info the most settled defence has been Taylor, Beyer, Oshea and Vitinho who have started 8 games together. Taylor, Beyer, AAD and Roberts have started 4.

Each other combination (nine of them) has started one game together.

[Vegas Claret]

it's been the root of our problem

[Goliath]

O-Shea/Beyer Ekdal Delcroix Taylor

That would be our most solid back 4 imo

[burnleymik]

Given the players we have and the injury problems we have faced I don't think it's his choice to keep tinkering.

What would be our best back four?

We need more quality for sure.

[Sleeping Cat]

Kompany has had a lot of injuries/suspensions to contend with in the defence, but =earlier in the season he was tinkering with the team even without the injuries. Since he has settled on a "preferred" 11-14 players to start matches overall performances have improved and we look harder to beat, something I think that does come with regular partnerships on the field. He still tinkers too much at the wrong time with his subs though, which is still costing us. Some of his subs are baffling.

[ElectroClaret]

Some of his subs are baffling.

None more so than the ones against West Ham.
Bewildering.

[SalisburyClaret]

Just put round pegs in round holes and don’t use pegs that aren’t ready yet

[gawthorpe_view]

None more so than the ones against West Ham.
Bewildering.

His changes cost us 3 points.

[dougcollins]

Just put round pegs in round holes and don’t use pegs that aren’t ready yet

The whole peg metaphor is taken to a new level there.

[Darthlaw]

23 played, 13 different defence combinations.

Although suddenly dropping Ramsey into the fray yesterday was a new one on me.

[ksrclaret]

The most bizarre one for me yesterday was seeing Berge dropping into a CB role when they had the ball.

To think when Berge first arrived he was being played ahead of the ball in an advanced midfield role, and 20 odd games later he’s in at CB.

I feel sorry for the guys out there who are being hung out to dry week after week.

[Hedontplayforyou]

Keeper
Assignon O’Shea Esteve Delcroix


Bring Beyer in for O’Shea when fit and likewise Chaz for Delcroix .

Let Assignon maraud up the right. Let the other three sit in a three when this happens . Leave odobert to the attacking on the left .

Bring Cullen back in to sit to the right closing the gap that Assignon leaves . With Berge and Brownhill ahead. Fofana in the Tella role and Foster up top.

I thought this was the plan at the beginning of the season .

[Steve1956]

I just feel sorry for Trafford in all this chaos,if he reads this board which I'm sure players will,its no wonder the lad always looks shell shocked..there is a good keeper in there but some of our support really have never given him a chance.

[Woodleyclaret]

A Traff error for goal 2 but then he redeemed himself with a string of excellent saves.

[Jamesy]

I just feel sorry for Trafford in all this chaos,if he reads this board which I'm sure players will,its no wonder the lad always looks shell shocked..there is a good keeper in there but some of our support really have never given him a chance.

Nonsense. Vincent picks him so he plays and our fans who actually attend games have been relatively easy on him. However, there were a few dissenting voices yesterday.
Just because he is criticised on a message board doesn’t mean he should look shell shocked. He probably looks shell shocked because he is overwhelmed by being nowhere near enough ready to play in the most competitive league in the world.

[Steve1956]

Nonsense. Vincent picks him so he plays and our fans who actually attend games have been relatively easy on him. However, there were a few dissenting voices yesterday.
Just because he is criticised on a message board doesn’t mean he should look shell shocked. He probably looks shell shocked because he is overwhelmed by being nowhere near enough ready to play in the most competitive league in the world.

My opinion please respect it.....this board is becoming intolerable.

[Jamesy]

My opinion please respect it.....this board is becoming intolerable.

I do respect your opinion. Sorry, in hindsight perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word nonsense. I should have said I disagree with you.
Please accept my apology I didn’t mean to offend.

[Hipper]

The problem is not just playing four regular defenders. It's playing four GOOD regular defenders.

None of our defenders has proved to be good enough most of the time - none of them. That's why VK has had to bring in two more on loan to try and improve things.

Roberts - not good enough and now gone.
Taylor - almost but not really up to what we need.
Vitinho - not good enough.
Al Dakhil - not good enough in any of the positions he's played.
Beyer - disappointingly after last season, he's not good enough.
Ekdal - too slow and not good enough on the little we've seen.
O'Shea - just about OK but still unlikely to get in any other Prem side.
Delcroix - a bit slow but perhaps there is something there.

This state of affairs is entirely down to VK.

[KRBFC]

For a settled defence you need to avoid injuries, Beyer is in and out and Taylor is out atm

[Dark Cloud]

The problem is not just playing four regular defenders. It's playing four GOOD regular defenders.

None of our defenders has proved to be good enough most of the time - none of them. That's why VK has had to bring in two more on loan to try and improve things.

Roberts - not good enough and now gone.
Taylor - almost but not really up to what we need.
Vitinho - not good enough.
Al Dakhil - not good enough in any of the positions he's played.
Beyer - disappointingly after last season, he's not good enough.
Ekdal - too slow and not good enough on the little we've seen.
O'Shea - just about OK but still unlikely to get in any other Prem side.
Delcroix - a bit slow but perhaps there is something there.

This state of affairs is entirely down to VK.

It doesn't give me any great pleasure, but I am inclined to agree with this assessment. The only thing I'll add is that it's' difficult to know how fit some of these players have been when they've actually been in the side because it may have been forced upon us, so some criticism may be unfair. Ekdal for example, has always looked really good to me and I was desperate for him to get back and then yesterday he was absolutely woeful! But is he actually fit?

[Colburn_Claret]

It is obvious to me we have talented players, it's also obvious there is a lack of experience at this level.
They will improve in time, too late to save this season, but most of all we need a leader, even more so because of the inexperience.

[Goliath]

None if them have really convinced which is the problem.
The most convincing ive seen individually are Delcroix v spurs and Estreve yesterday. The rest never look calm and in control.
I still think id be giving q Beyer a chance to nail down the rcb spot ahead of O'shea who seems to be a jack of all trades which is fine for a backup, not convinced he should be first choice though.

[alwaysaclaret]

For a settled defence you need to avoid injuries, Beyer is in and out and Taylor is out atm

While Beyer was brilliant for us last season and why he's subsequently got the nickname beckenbauer early on, he's also been guilty of a few mistakes this season, I'm still on the fence, but it seems he also might not be up to this level. He is a couple of inches short as well imo. But absolutely agree whoever is playing in it, you need to avoid injuries to have that settled defence.

[bfcjg]

I think because Kompany and Craig Bellamy have been away from the Prem for just a few years they haven't got to grips with how rapidly it's changed and how more physical the players are. Our defence is just to soft and Trafford needs big strong defenders to protect him.

[burnleymik]

The most convincing ive seen individually are Delcroix v spurs

Wasn't that with Muric behind him too?

[Vegas Claret]

The problem is not just playing four regular defenders. It's playing four GOOD regular defenders.

None of our defenders has proved to be good enough most of the time - none of them. That's why VK has had to bring in two more on loan to try and improve things.

Roberts - not good enough and now gone.
Taylor - almost but not really up to what we need.
Vitinho - not good enough.
Al Dakhil - not good enough in any of the positions he's played.
Beyer - disappointingly after last season, he's not good enough.
Ekdal - too slow and not good enough on the little we've seen.
O'Shea - just about OK but still unlikely to get in any other Prem side.
Delcroix - a bit slow but perhaps there is something there.

This state of affairs is entirely down to VK.

the irony of which is last season you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thought Beyer wouldn't be top drawer, it was pretty unanimous we all saw great potential in Al Dakhil and we were all impressed by Ekdhal to the point we said THB would struggle to get back in the side. Great praise was heaped onto VK for bringing them in, now apparently they are all crap

[Bowclaret]

Simply for me really. We miss everything that THB gave us last season. One hell of a c ock up not signing that lad. Southampton fans are now saying he’s better than Van Dyke.

Even at 20m + we should have signed him

[Bullabill]

From the Trafford thread I made a quip about him playing in front of the eighth different defence this season ...........

Mmm .. I thought he was supposed to play behind the defence.

[Hipper]

the irony of which is last season you would be hard pressed to find anyone who thought Beyer wouldn't be top drawer, it was pretty unanimous we all saw great potential in Al Dakhil and we were all impressed by Ekdhal to the point we said THB would struggle to get back in the side. Great praise was heaped onto VK for bringing them in, now apparently they are all crap

There isn't any irony in it at all. What you say about last season is exactly how I felt. However we have moved up another level and unfortunately it looks like these players are incapable of moving up too, at least not this season. They are not crap players, just not Premier League ones. Perhaps we also fell into the trap of misjudging what a gap there is between The Championship and Premier Leagues.

[Foshiznik]

Whilst there has been plenty of chopping and changing in the back line, the lack of change in midfield appears to have had just as bad an impact. Too many passengers and not enough players willing the grab the game by the scruff of it's neck.

Time for Cullen to come back in for Amdouni and sure the midfield up defensively imo. Hopefully that coupled with Esteve and Assignon become mainstays in the back 4 with Taylor also coming back soon (and hopefully Beyer) will see more stability at least as a defensive unit.

[beeholeclaret]

My opinion please respect it.....this board is becoming intolerable.

Rest assured your opinion regarding matters on here are greatly valued.

[brexit]

The problem is not just playing four regular defenders. It's playing four GOOD regular defenders.

None of our defenders has proved to be good enough most of the time - none of them. That's why VK has had to bring in two more on loan to try and improve things.

Roberts - not good enough and now gone.
Taylor - almost but not really up to what we need.
Vitinho - not good enough.
Al Dakhil - not good enough in any of the positions he's played.
Beyer - disappointingly after last season, he's not good enough.
Ekdal - too slow and not good enough on the little we've seen.
O'Shea - just about OK but still unlikely to get in any other Prem side.
Delcroix - a bit slow but perhaps there is something there.

This state of affairs is entirely down to VK.

Or is it down to the league? Is the gulf in quality so great that our good performances last year were against inferior teams?

[summitclaret]

Whilst there has been plenty of chopping and changing in the back line, the lack of change in midfield appears to have had just as bad an impact. Too many passengers and not enough players willing the grab the game by the scruff of it's neck.

Time for Cullen to come back in for Amdouni and sure the midfield up defensively imo. Hopefully that coupled with Esteve and Assignon become mainstays in the back 4 with Taylor also coming back soon (and hopefully Beyer) will see more stability at least as a defensive unit.

Not having 3 in cm has been our weakness all season, along with a serious lack of height/physicality throughout the team. Assuming we can get Beyer and Charlie back soon, I'd set up:-
Trafford

Assignon O'Shea Estive Taylor

Beyer

Brownhill Berge

Fofarna Foster Oderbert


That's 8 outfield players at least 5' 11".

[bumba]

Not having 3 in cm has been our weakness all season, along with a serious lack of height/physicality throughout the team. Assuming we can get Beyer and Charlie back soon, I'd set up:-
Trafford

Assignon O'Shea Estive Taylor

Beyer

Brownhill Berge

Fofarna Foster Oderbert


That's 8 outfield players at least 5' 11".

Beyer in midfield, the new Tarky

[Hipper]

Or is it down to the league? Is the gulf in quality so great that our good performances last year were against inferior teams?

Down to VK because he is the manager, played for years in this league (ended May 2019) and it's reasonable to think he should have a good idea of what it takes to be a defender in it. Surely a manager shouldn't be fooled that doing very well in The Championship makes you good enough for The Premier League?

If he is as good a manager as we hope I reckon he will take stock of what has happened this season and be a better manager for it. However it means wholesale changes again whichever division we end up in.

[Nonayforever]

VK clearly had a strategy and style of play for the whole of last season.

That same style was taken into the pre season friendlies. The Benfica game was breathtaking, the same as last season albeit with different personal.

He tried the same style against Man City and claimed to be satisfied but then got hammered against Villa trying to use the same system with players that weren't good enough.
He has since struggled to find a way to play with the players brought it to play his original style.
We, as fans with PL experience, knew that we needed some strength and experience alongside flair and youth, but he let that side of the squad go without replacing it.
He is now finding it impossible to get a balanced squad.

[Vegas Claret]

There isn't any irony in it at all. What you say about last season is exactly how I felt. However we have moved up another level and unfortunately it looks like these players are incapable of moving up too, at least not this season. They are not crap players, just not Premier League ones. Perhaps we also fell into the trap of misjudging what a gap there is between The Championship and Premier Leagues.

I think people at the club massively underestimated the gulf and that's the one thing I cannot defend them on

[ŽižkovClaret]

From the Trafford thread I made a quip about him playing in front of the eighth different defence this season which caused me to have a look into how many different defences we've had this season and it turns out (in the league alone) we have started with 11 different defence lineups this season!

Whilst I appreciate it is a squad game, I always think the best teams are built on a solid settled defence, which was one thing Dyche certainly maintained with Tarks, Mee and Taylor at least starting every game they were fit for together with Lowton / Bardsley only really being changed sporadically.

Do others think we should pick players to suit the opposition attack or rely on players knowing the man at the side of him inside out? Added to that is this something to add to VK's often maligned substitutions, that he is dangerously close to being a tinkerman?

If he's playing in front of his defence, it might explain our goals against column!

[TsarBomba]

I think people at the club massively underestimated the gulf and that's the one thing I cannot defend them on

Using the gulf between Championship and Premier League for our failings is a bit of a cop out, imo. The decision makers can wring their hands of any responsibility. Almost like a get out of jail free card.

I’d say that the gulf when we first got promoted under Dyche was just as big if not bigger. That squad was nowhere near ready to compete, but we made a good fist of it simply because we were set up properly.

You can probably put our squad into 3 separate categories:

-players that are PL ready now
-players that aren’t but will be with another 1-2 years growth
-players that will never make the step up

We’ve a real mix of the 3, but we have enough quality in the squad to be doing far better than we are. To be getting 20 points at the current rate in 38 games is pathetic, and that is because VK, week after week, has failed to set us up to at least compete.

We’ve the youngest squad in the league along with Chelsea and they are absolutely shot because VK has failed to protect them.

[Vegas Claret]

Using the gulf between Championship and Premier League for our failings is a bit of a cop out, imo. The decision makers can wring their hands of any responsibility. Almost like a get out of jail free card.

I’d say that the gulf when we first got promoted under Dyche was just as big if not bigger. That squad was nowhere near ready to compete, but we made a good fist of it simply because we were set up properly.

You can probably put our squad into 3 separate categories:

-players that are PL ready now
-players that aren’t but will be with another 1-2 years growth
-players that will never make the step up

We’ve a real mix of the 3, but we have enough quality in the squad to be doing far better than we are. To be getting 20 points at the current rate in 38 games is pathetic, and that is because VK, week after week, has failed to set us up to at least compete.

We’ve the youngest squad in the league along with Chelsea and they are absolutely shot because VK has failed to protect them.

Not sure it's a cop out, it's pretty clear the 3 we just brought in are of higher calibre than what we have so that puts to bed that argument

[TsarBomba]

Not sure it's a cop out, it's pretty clear the 3 we just brought in are of higher calibre than what we have so that puts to bed that argument

My post wasn’t particularly aimed at you, but you’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve had many a squad over the years where the players haven’t been good enough, but we’ve been set up to compete to give us at least half a chance.

In terms of individual quality and technical ability, Luton are worse than us, but they are giving it a go because they have gone back to what they did last season and what they know best.

We excelled under Dyche because we were always greater than the sum of our parts, and the same needs to happen under VK because we will never have the luxury of having 11 players, or a squad, that are all PL quality.

[Vegas Claret]

My post wasn’t particularly aimed at you, but you’ve missed the point entirely.

We’ve had many a squad over the years where the players haven’t been good enough, but we’ve been set up to compete to give us at least half a chance.

In terms of individual quality and technical ability, Luton are worse than us, but they are giving it a go because they have gone back to what they did last season and what they know best.

We excelled under Dyche because we were always greater than the sum of our parts, and the same needs to happen under VK because we will never have the luxury of having 11 players, or a squad, that are all PL quality.

sorry mate, I wasn't disagreeing with you at all, just saying it seems they've realised the mistakes made in the summer in terms of recruitment level. I didn't miss the point, just was answering part of it. Agree wholeheartedly with the rest of what you said in terms of set up and that's on VK and the coaches. It's mental when you think of what battlers VK and Bellamy were as players, we saw more fight from the new 3 on Saturday than we have from the likes of Amdouni all season. All too little too late for this season though imho

[Foshiznik]

Not having 3 in cm has been our weakness all season, along with a serious lack of height/physicality throughout the team. Assuming we can get Beyer and Charlie back soon, I'd set up:-
Trafford

Assignon O'Shea Estive Taylor

Beyer

Brownhill Berge

Fofarna Foster Oderbert


That's 8 outfield players at least 5' 11".

Agreed but I’d put Beyer in for O’Shea and Cullen in CDM. Had enough of us playing players outside of their primary position already this season!

[Darthlaw]

14 unique defences in 24 games now.

Stinker by Trafford for their first today but I can’t help thinking this must be contributing to our defensive marking and performance from set pieces.

[Darthlaw]

15 Unique defenses in 26 now.

And it shows with some of the understanding between our guys there

[Darthlaw]

For any further nerds, here are the defensive performances of our various combinations this season

defences.PNG (18.61 KiB) Viewed 246 times

For additional info, the defence was changed in concurrent league games on 22 occasions this season and we only started with the same defence as the previous game on 6 occasions.