Battle of the Somme

[karatekid]

Not sure if this has been posted before but I came across this interview with Pte. Will Marshall from Burnley on the horrific events he witnessed.
Can anyone shed any light on why the men were ordered to stop for two minutes after going fifty yards. I know the whole thing was madness but that is just beyond belief. Such bravery. His interview reminded me of a Quote:


There's no such thing as a crowded battlefield. Battlefields are lonely places.
Alfred M. Gray


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-englan ... e-36671103

[bobinho]

Brave men all of them.

Can’t imagine for one minute what it must be like to be stood waiting at the bottom of a ladder for someone to blow that whistle.

[FigSlice]

Try looking on the Accrington Pals website to see if they have an explanation. www.pals.org.uk
Will Marshall was the last known surviving Pal, died a month short of his 102nd birthday in 1995.

[ElectroClaret]

Can anyone shed any light on why the men were ordered to stop for two minutes after going fifty yards.

This probably isn't the whole answer, but heard the reason for this was to stop the troops catching up with our own "creeping barrage" from our artillery.

Even our simpleton generals saw the disadvantages of shelling our own men.

Like i say theres probably more to it, but that's what
I read somewhere.

[Croydon Claret]

This probably isn't the whole answer, but heard the reason for this was to stop the troops catching up with our own "creeping barrage" from our artillery.

Even our simpleton generals saw the disadvantages of shelling our own men.

Like i say theres probably more to it, but that's what
I read somewhere.

It's explained in more detail here
https://www.theobservationpost.com/blog/?p=1598

[karatekid]

Found this online which explains it. Still Madness.


Arnold was given the responsibility of leading the first wave of the attack, comprising two platoons of "W" Company and two platoons of "X" Company (each company is made up of four platoons). At around 3am on 1st July 1916, the four platoons assembled in the shellfire-damaged front lines between Matthew and Mark Copses. At 7.20am, Arnold blew on his whistle, called out a few words of encouragement, and led his men out of the trenches. Despite being wounded almost immediately, Arnold brought his men 100 yds into No Man's Land where they lay down on the ground waiting for the British artillery bombardment to lift from the German front line. At 7.30am, the men rose and advanced into a hail of machine gun and artillery fire. Moments later, Arnold was wounded a second time. Still leading his men forward, he was finally killed by a shot to the head.

[ElectroClaret]

Yes, that explains it in far more detail.

"....unless the infantry were taking casualties from their own artillery, then they were not close enough. "

Sounds unbelievable now.

[Clovius Boofus]

Last night, I watched the final episode of The First World War (2003 TV series). I've seen it before, but it's always worth another viewing. All the death and suffering, ended with a signature on a piece of paper. Some of the those serving on the Western Front couldn't believe it when the guns finally fell silent, and found it most disconcerting to say the least - they had become so accustomed to the noise of gunfire and artillery.

The saddest thing, apart from the millions of deaths on all sides and the disfigurements and disabled, was the broken minds. Many ended up alcoholics or unable to hold down jobs due to what we now call post-traumatic stress - they died in the workhouse.

[RicardoMontalban]

There’s been a century of military historians debating tactical approach but two things always stood out for me. Firstly the army of the Somme was Kitchener’s army of volunteers. Not the small but highly trained BEF, but a much more rudimentarily trained force with limited experience. Undoubtedly this has an impact on the sophistication of the tactics. Wars have always been a struggle between attack and defence, but with the industrial advancements in arms the balance of advantage at that point was heavily in the defenders favour. Tactical doctrine had yet to catch up.

There was also, in the wider context of the war, an absolute necessity for the British to attack as soon as possible. the French were on the point of collapse at Verdun and further delay could have decisively swung things in Germany’s favour.

I recommend anyone with even a passing interest visits the battlefields of the First World War. I went a few years back to the Somme and Ypres, visited the memorials, the famous sites, found my relatives names and paid my respects. Looking down the valley of the Somme and seeing the white cemeteries dotted along the line of advance was a sobering experience.

[karatekid]

I watched the Peter Jackson documentary that colorised the footage and it was a comment at the end that I remember most when someone said to a returning soldier " hello, where have you been? I haven't seen you for ages". A lot of employers wouldn't hire returning soldiers either for some reason.

[karatekid]

The Germans had the higher ground and had spent months digging tunnels so the bombardment had little effect. The miles of barbed wire was virtually untouched. It was a disaster waiting to happen from the start without our lads being asked to walk forwards and wait in no mans land. The commanders should have been brought to justice over their decisions.

[South West Claret.]

War what is it good for-absolutely nothing.

[RicardoMontalban]

The Germans had the higher ground and had spent months digging tunnels so the bombardment had little effect. The miles of barbed wire was virtually untouched. It was a disaster waiting to happen from the start without our lads being asked to walk forwards and wait in no mans land. The commanders should have been brought to justice over their decisions.

If we’re looking at who was morally responsible for the slaughter the then politicians (on both sides) are first up for the failure to find a compromise peace at any point prior, though how realistic that was is debatable. Once the stalemate sets in in late 1914 and trench warfare takes over from the mobile war of the first German offensive and the Battle of the Marne, a military victory would inevitably be horrific and bloody. The generals of 1916 did not have a wealth of experience to look back on for this sort of warfare and any sort of offensive action comes with a high price.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ ... 0533149532

[evensteadiereddie]

War what is it good for-absolutely nothing.

It helps politicians to con the public into thinking they are decisive and doing "the right thing".
It works every time.

[South West Claret.]

It helps politicians to con the public into thinking they are decisive and doing "the right thing".
It works every time.

Yes and rarely put themselves in the firing line of course.

[JohnMcGreal]

That conflict must surely be the single most catastrophic episode in all of human history.

Firstly because of the unimaginable scale of the slaughter and destruction at the time and secondly because of what it ultimately lead to a generation later.

Completely mind-boggling.

[Dark Cloud]

For anyone remotely interested in history a visit to The Somme is absolutely a must. The front line ran for only a matter of around 14 miles and is easily drive able in a day or two with numerous iconic places along the way to get out and explore. Due to the rich agricultural nature of the area almost all of it has remained unchanged and unspoilt since the days of the war, plus famous places such as the Lochnagar crater have been carefully preserved. The war cemeteries absolutely litter the countryside all along the front and are absolutely immaculately kept by the War Graves Commission which is heart warming to see. By looking on the Commission website beforehand it's really easy to locate exactly any particular grave you might want to visit. I took my mum who was 86 at the time to visit the graves of her mum's brother at the idyllic "Caterpillar Valley" and her dad's brother buried near Albert. Both places were so peaceful and tranquil and in stunning countryside and yet in July 1916 you'd have been surrounded by continuous shellfire and standing knee deep in mud, blood and death. It's unbelievable to be there today and picture it. The place known as "The Sunken Road" is particularly relevant to East Lancashire as the regiment, including my mum's uncle went over the top there at the start of the battle on July 1st and when you see it, it really is just a bush lined lane about 150 yards long, slightly raised on one side and you stand there exactly where those lads stood 100 years ago and nothing has changed. They only had to cross a field of about 200 yards to reach the German trenches and yet there's a memorial about 75 yards into the field where the furthest soldier got to before the horrendous death toll forced them back. Visiting that area is one of THE greatest experiences of my whole life.

[bfcjg]

Life was so cheap, the blatant disregard for the lives of ordinary soldiers and low ranking officers is ironically captured in the wonderful Blackadder goes forth.

[claret59]

Years ago there was a TV documentary of how women in both the UK and Germany tried , and nearly succeeded , in brokering a peace deal because they were horrified at the loss of life and all that went with it. I cannot remember why it failed I think that Britain was just starting to get the upper hand and therefore the negations were scuppered. Perhaps someone on here has more specifics. I think it was in 1916

[Targetman]

Just a few miles north of Albert, the town which Dark Cloud mentions above, is the small town of Bethune.

A First World War cemetary is on the edge of that town, many of the graves are of young men from the 25th East Lancashire Regiment who drew their recruits from mainly Burnley, Rossendale and Accrington.

The inscriptions on the headstones show that many of those lads were only teenagers.
I took my mother there to see her uncle's grave around 25 years ago, he was 19 when he was killed fighting for his country.

I visited the cemetary again 18 months ago and once again it brought tears to my eyes seeing the graves of all those young men from East Lancs.

By the way, the French keep the cemetary in absolute pristine condition.

[Roger1960]

I remember vividly talking to my grandfather one armistice day when he was waiting to go to the war memorial with my dad with his service medals on.he was a medical orderly just behind the lines on the western front on armistice day having been gassed , he recalled every gun on both sides firing right up to the stroke of 11am when it stopped and he said every soldier started to cry as they knew they were going to survive. The sheer bloody mindedness of the generals not to halt the fighting as soon as they signed the surrender but to leave it until 11am the day after and let men die right up to the last second just shows why they should be leading from the front not sat safely miles behind

[CoolClaret]

Always have immense gratitude and admiration for these men.

Working lads that gave their all, brings a tear to my eye every time when I really sit down and think about it.

God bless them all

[MeeActon1]

For anyone remotely interested in history a visit to The Somme is absolutely a must. The front line ran for only a matter of around 14 miles and is easily drive able in a day or two with numerous iconic places along the way to get out and explore. Due to the rich agricultural nature of the area almost all of it has remained unchanged and unspoilt since the days of the war, plus famous places such as the Lochnagar crater have been carefully preserved. The war cemeteries absolutely litter the countryside all along the front and are absolutely immaculately kept by the War Graves Commission which is heart warming to see. By looking on the Commission website beforehand it's really easy to locate exactly any particular grave you might want to visit. I took my mum who was 86 at the time to visit the graves of her mum's brother at the idyllic "Caterpillar Valley" and her dad's brother buried near Albert. Both places were so peaceful and tranquil and in stunning countryside and yet in July 1916 you'd have been surrounded by continuous shellfire and standing knee deep in mud, blood and death. It's unbelievable to be there today and picture it. The place known as "The Sunken Road" is particularly relevant to East Lancashire as the regiment, including my mum's uncle went over the top there at the start of the battle on July 1st and when you see it, it really is just a bush lined lane about 150 yards long, slightly raised on one side and you stand there exactly where those lads stood 100 years ago and nothing has changed. They only had to cross a field of about 200 yards to reach the German trenches and yet there's a memorial about 75 yards into the field where the furthest soldier got to before the horrendous death toll forced them back. Visiting that area is one of THE greatest experiences of my whole life.

It was the Lancashire Fusiliers that went over from the Sunken Lane and advanced toward Beaumont Hamel. The East Lancs, 11th Service Battalion (Accy Pals) were further down the line and attacked towards Serre from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Copse, what is now erroneously known as Sheffield memorial park, the Sheffield battalion of the Yorks and Lancs regiment attacked a few hundred yards away but chose this spot to adopt after the war. There are 4 battlefield cemeteries in the immediate vicinity, Railway Hollow was behind the front line, Queens Cemetery and Serre Road No.3 are in what was No Man’s land they have many Burnley, Accrington and Blackburn lads in them, Queens is towards the top of the slope the Pals climbed before being cut down by machine gun fire as they appeared over the top of the slope. Only a small number made it to the objective of Serre and they were forced to retreat or killed. The last of the 4 cemeteries in this immediate area is Luke Copse which has many Yorkshire troops in it. The image shows Queens Cemetery and the slope which the Pals attacked up taken from my website ww1cemeteries.com

[ecc]

We can't have enough threads about these men. The day we stop paying tributes to them will be a dangerous one.

We shouldn't forget the soldiers from across the British Empire who travelled so far to go through hell for the British.

[Clovius Boofus]

Ferdinand Foch, French military leader and supreme commander of the Allied armies in 1918, was critical of the Treaty of Versailles. He wanted total demilitarisation of Germany. He said the treaty was an armistice for 20 years. It was signed on the 28th of June 1919 - he was out by a couple of months.

[JohnMcGreal]

Ferdinand Foch, French military leader and supreme commander of the Allied armies in 1918, was critical of the Treaty of Versailles. He wanted total demilitarisation of Germany. He said the treaty was an armistice for 20 years. It was signed on the 28th of June 1919 - he was out by a couple of months.

The other side of that argument is the treaty was already far too harsh as it was and was ultimately a huge error.

I think with hindsight the biggest mistake was forcing a German surrender while the war was still being fought on French and Belgian soil. Had the Allies fought on and pushed into Germany their surrender would have been more widely accepted at home and might not have given a chance for a 'stab in the back theory' to take hold. The consequences of that turned out to be catastrophic.

But it's completely understandable why the allies at that time wanted an end to the conflict as soon as possible, and why they (the French and Foch in particular) were determined to cripple Germany as punishment for the unfathomable loss of young lives.

They wouldn't have known at the time what was to follow.

[eastanglianclaret]

I have been privileged to visit many locations on the Somme over the years and am always impressed with the way that the French local authorities maintain the war graves. Further afield I have also visited the Menin Gate many times and would recommend a visit to all. My wife has played there in a silver band several times at the evening service. The list of names of those who fell but have no known grave would confirm ECC's comment above with many thousands of names from regiments of the whole of The Commonwealth engraved there alongside those of the British soldiers. I have seen many people young and old visit this memorial and conduct themselves with utmost respect. I've seen many tears. There is hope. We should and will never forget the sacrifice that these men and women made so that we may be free.

[Dark Cloud]

It's interesting we often refer to "the commonwealth" here without always realising just what that meant back then. I was absolutely amazed to find that practically every other grave seemed to be a fallen Australian which I hadn't appreciated before and there's even a dedicated (huge) memorial and visitors centre specifically for Australian soldiers, along with the South African one at Devils Wood and the one dedicated to the Newfoundlanders amongst others.

[ElectroClaret]

The inscriptions on the headstones show that many of those lads were only teenagers.
I took my mother there to see her uncle's grave around 25 years ago, he was 19 when he was killed fighting for his country.

Go to any war cemetery, doesn't matter which army
or which war. The ages on the gravestones are pretty much identical to every other war cemetery, in that
18-23 range in the main. Some even younger.

The old men do the screwing up and the young men
do the dying.

[RicardoMontalban]

It's interesting we often refer to "the commonwealth" here without always realising just what that meant back then. I was absolutely amazed to find that practically every other grave seemed to be a fallen Australian which I hadn't appreciated before and there's even a dedicated (huge) memorial and visitors centre specifically for Australian soldiers, along with the South African one at Devils Wood and the one dedicated to the Newfoundlanders amongst others.

The impact of the Great War on these fledgling countries and their own growing sense of identity cannot be underestimated.

[Clovius Boofus]

The other side of that argument is the treaty was already far too harsh as it was and was ultimately a huge error.

I think with hindsight the biggest mistake was forcing a German surrender while the war was still being fought on French and Belgian soil. Had the Allies fought on and pushed into Germany their surrender would have been more widely accepted at home and might not have given a chance for a 'stab in the back theory' to take hold. The consequences of that turned out to be catastrophic.

But it's completely understandable why the allies at that time wanted an end to the conflict as soon as possible, and why they (the French and Foch in particular) were determined to cripple Germany as punishment for the unfathomable loss of young lives.

They wouldn't have known at the time what was to follow.

Yeah, I agree with all that. The German army slipping back over the Rhine allowed the 'step in the back' theory to grow. Like you say though, fighting on, when the Germans were suing for peace, would have been a disaster for the Allied political leaders. Continuing the slaughter wouldn't have been acceptable to their war-weary public. Of course, this all changed by WW2. Nothing but unconditional surrender would suffice.

[Culmclaret]

My great great uncle was killed in the battle: shot straight through the head at Ginchy. He was Burnley through and through and although he was a humble weaver living on Gillow St his memorial service was conducted by the bishop of Burnley in a packed St Peter’s. He had fought at Gallipoli but contracted dysentery and was sent to Malta to recuperate from where he wrote to Burnley FC asking if the club would be kind enough to send some footballs for the convalescents there. His thank you letter was published in the Burnley Express. He is commemorated on the Thiepval memorial. He was killed on 8 Sept having only arrived in France in 1 Sept 1916.

[elwaclaret]

Sadly the French were in overall command, and commanded along the whole French front - moral was sapping as the French bore the brunt. There was a very real possibility that the alliance would fail, and the numbers of French soldiers going awol was increasingly a problem. The British command under overall command of the French senior officers were told they must take the offensive to relieve the pressure on the French lines…

[FigSlice]

My great great uncle was killed in the battle: shot straight through the head at Ginchy. He was Burnley through and through and although he was a humble weaver living on Gillow St his memorial service was conducted by the bishop of Burnley in a packed St Peter’s. He had fought at Gallipoli but contracted dysentery and was sent to Malta to recuperate from where he wrote to Burnley FC asking if the club would be kind enough to send some footballs for the convalescents there. His thank you letter was published in the Burnley Express. He is commemorated on the Thiepval memorial. He was killed on 8 Sept having only arrived in France in 1 Sept 1916.

Too young to vote, more than likely not earning enough to pay income tax, therefore no influence on government. Yet old enough to fight for his country. I hope you have shared your great great uncle's story on the Burnley in the Great War website which collects photos and brief biographies of those killed and those who survived. Would you be prepared to share his name here?

[Belgianclaret]

Visited Compiegnes last summer. Can’t help but thinking that the events ending the First World War contributed to the second.
Hindsight is wonderful of course, and no one can say that Hitler would not have gained power if WW1 had ended slightly more conciliatory.
Let’s not forget, WW1 mainly started because there was too much greed and wealth, whilst the economic crisis (on top of the imposed sanctions) certainly gave nazism a good feeding ground.
Crazy to think how quickly society has forgotten the horrors of war and the fighting has started again.