Belgium VAR

[bumba]

Genk have won an appeal against a VAR error in their game against Anderlecht, it will now be replayed.....we may have a fixture pile up this summer across the premier league

[ClaretTony]

That’s one hell of a concerning route to go down

[NewClaret]

That’s one hell of a concerning route to go down

It is, but justified in some cases, I think.

I actually think if this level of recourse existed VAR officials might think more carefully about some decisions.

In my view the Luton decision was a farce and VAR just didn’t apply the rules of the game. We’d have a good case on that one… although whether a replay would achieve a better result is a different question.

[bumba]

That’s one hell of a concerning route to go down

It could lead to the end of VAR with any luck if clubs start appealing bad decisions and winning.

[bobinho]

With a bit of luck, the wronged teams in the PL will follow suit, with the end result being we go back to how things were before the cluster **** that is VAR destroyed our enjoyment of the game.

Unlikely though…. Far too many people and far too much money invested in it now.

[NottsClaret]

Crazy that they’re doing this. Over a 23rd minute disallowed penalty over encroachment. Wouldn’t even make the top 20 bad VAR calls in our league.

Hopefully it sets a precedent and we see it happening in the Prem and Champions League, then everyone accepts it’s ludicrous and killing the game and we can bin the whole thing.

[Swizzlestick]

Pretty astonishing decision. Liverpool’s VAR error with the Diaz goal was far worse than this so you wonder where this is going to lead.

[mkmel]

Get rid of VAR but keep the goal line technology only.

Let's go back to referees making the right decisions and sometimes the wrong decisions.

[Vegas Claret]

It's the complete opposite of concerning. As it stands I think we all know that they don't know how to operate it, it's also been proven by Bath University that the line drawing isn't fit for purpose (to a laughable degree). Until the technology catches up it's pointless. Congrats to those in Belgium, hope someone here decides to go down that route pronto. I nominate Wolves, they can have about 8 games replayed.

[claptrappers_union]

When we played in the Championship, I didn't miss it one bit.

I'm bored talking about it every week. I repeat here that ‘I don't know the rules anymore’ because there's a different outcome to the same decisions, and refs and pundits justify the decision after everyone agreed on the opposite outcome in a different game.

Let's have three years without it again and see how we get on.

[ArmchairDetective]

This Premier League season would never end. For the big clubs anyway. Not a chance we'd ever be given a replay.

[timshorts]

This Premier League season would never end. For the big clubs anyway. Not a chance we'd ever be given a replay.

Of course we would. Every time we pick up a point.

[Dyched]

It could lead to the end of VAR with any luck if clubs start appealing bad decisions and winning.

Or the end of football. What’s to stop teams appealing wrong decisions that are made if VAR wasn’t used anymore?

[distortiondave]

If there was no VAR we'd still have drawn with Luton as the on field officials gave the goal.
We'd have beaten Forest though, and Foster wouldn't have been banned.

[Quickenthetempo]

Too be fair, Everton got to replay their game against Crystal Palace the other week after DCL got sent off, wrongly by VAR.

They even let Everton play the replay at Goodison as an apology gift.

[It Is What It Is]

You have got trust the honesty and integrity of the referee and his assistants and do away with VAR.
Bad decisions will be made but honest human ones.
The game will flow as it was meant to, without waiting ages as to whether it was a goal, offside, foul, red card, handball, obstruction etc etc.
Also good talking points at the end of the game..good or bad.

[IanMcL]

It could lead to the end of VAR with any luck if clubs start appealing bad decisions and winning.

It's not the VAR it is the application.

[ArmchairDetective]

It's not the VAR it is the application.

I agree with the application. The way it was used in the 2018 world cup worked very well. Since then the Premier League has somehow taken it and made a right mess of it. No wonder people have theories about bias etc.

But football was far more fun without VAR. Second guessing whether you can celebrate a goal is not the football I know and love.

[Sproggy]

If there was no VAR we'd still have drawn with Luton as the on field officials gave the goal.
We'd have beaten Forest though, and Foster wouldn't have been banned.

Yeah but without the safety net of VAR maybe the ref would been a big enough boy to make his own decision?

[claptrappers_union]

Goals bring ruled out because of the tiniest issues. Especially when none of the players complain frustrates me.

[IanMcL]

I agree with the application. The way it was used in the 2018 world cup worked very well. Since then the Premier League has somehow taken it and made a right mess of it. No wonder people have theories about bias etc.

But football was far more fun without VAR. Second guessing whether you can celebrate a goal is not the football I know and love.

I was in favour of VAR given how many times we had been on the wrong end of ref decisions (to suit those particular clubs). Sadly, the Prem has used it to ensure those same clubs prevail. Two bites of the cherry to ensure the 'prem' outcome.

[Kilson810]

Refereeing in football needs a radical rethink imo. Discussing decisions just takes over the whole game and you barely speak about the quality of players anymore.

Sheff united v West Ham was a prime example the other week, the whole game just boiled down to two refereeing decisions and that decided the outcome, not the quality of the players.

[bfcjg]

A referee in each half would work so they can.keep up with play,just let VAR decide on corners and throw ins.

[ClaretTony]

Refereeing in football needs a radical rethink imo. Discussing decisions just takes over the whole game and you barely speak about the quality of players anymore.

Sheff united v West Ham was a prime example the other week, the whole game just boiled down to two refereeing decisions and that decided the outcome, not the quality of the players.

you are right on that game with two shocking decisions going in Sheffield United's favour right at the end but I'd hate the day when matches were replayed because of decisions made by referees.

[Colburn_Claret]

Getting rid of VAR doesn't stop the bad decisions, it only makes it worse.
VAR has provided proof that the only way to stop bad decisions is to get rid of the referees that make them.

They have a difficult job, made harder by a bunch of cheating players. And close calls will always create disagreement, but for those blatantly obvious bad calls there has to be a price for the incompetent.

[StayingDown4Ever]

How would the financing of these replayed games work?

Seems unfair the clubs and supporters having all the expense of having the game replayed. If the costs were met by the FA for VAR errors we would soon see them getting things right at the time of the initial review.

[Kilson810]

you are right on that game with two shocking decisions going in Sheffield United's favour right at the end but I'd hate the day when matches were replayed because of decisions made by referees.

Yeah that would be shocking for fans. We need a real in-depth look at how we referee professional matches with radical changes imo. Look at other sports, see what they do right and wrong and learn from it.

Games are worth millions of pounds and ultimately they rest on the opinions of one ref out in the middle doing the best that they can. VAR doesn't help them nearly enough.

[boyyanno]

I also agree a large part of the problem is about how it's being applied.

You only need to listen to the audio footage they release to be able to identify issues with it. They carry a bias in to every decision. The clear and obvious thing needs doing away with first in my opinion, if it's not the correct decision then it's clear and obvious. There should be independent people inside reviewing the footage, and they should all be of the same rank (so there can be no "rank" pulling).

I'd also give power back to the officials on the pitch to some degree, I'd ask them to review the footage again for another look as opposed to saying, "that's handball send him off". I'd even ask him to review the odd one that I thought was correct, just so the ref knows he can stick with his decision and doesn't need to overturn somthing just because VAR have asked for a relook.

It needs some big changes but the reality is having a team of people review the footage and report the correct interpretation of the rules should not be half as hard as we are making it imo.

[Goodclaret]

VAR has to go. It has drained the enjoyment of attending live PL games now. The celebration of your team scoring a goal is (in my opinion) one of the main reasons you go to a game. That euphoria has been taken away for 90% of goals.

I was all in favour of it as I thought we, Burnley, would gain that lost advantage of being a small team. Arsenal throwing balls in to our net would be a thing of the past. Arsenal players throwing themselves on the floor to win pens was going to disappear. The live, on field decisions were so frustrating but the now 5 or 6 minute delays in still getting to the wrong decision is far more frustrating and leads to the possibility/accusation of corruptness of the ref's.

Get VAR in the bin.

[Vegas Claret]

It's not the VAR it is the application.

It's been proved by Bath University that they cannot draw the lines accurately. They also cannot draw the lines accurately - why do they draw the lines on where the player 'could' be offside but NEVER bother looking at the accuracy of when the player plays the ball. It's complete and utter made up bullshit and needs ditching until it's accurate for at least the line drawing.

[chekhov]

I actually think if this level of recourse existed VAR officials might think more carefully about some decisions.

I’d rather there was less thinking about decisions. The agonising for minutes over offside decisions is ridiculous (for example).

[IanMcL]

It's been proved by Bath University that they cannot draw the lines accurately. They also cannot draw the lines accurately - why do they draw the lines on where the player 'could' be offside but NEVER bother looking at the accuracy of when the player plays the ball. It's complete and utter made up bullshit and needs ditching until it's accurate for at least the line drawing.

I don't think that being on or off by a toenail/big nose/long hair etc is in the spirit of the game. I am in favour of torso only and wouldn't object to clear daylight to be offside, as that would mean more goals and eradicate the 'when did it leave the passers boot' rubbish.

[Vegas Claret]

I don't think that being on or off by a toenail/big nose/long hair etc is in the spirit of the game. I am in favour of torso only and wouldn't object to clear daylight to be offside, as that would mean more goals and eradicate the 'when did it leave the passers boot' rubbish.

Daylight for me, Id rather see games finish 13-13 than 0-0

[kaptin1]

The difficulty with offside is that its determination is black or white. You are either offside or you are not. Whatever rule you apply to determine that will still need to be measured and it’s the accuracy of the measurement system that is the problem. So, if it’s an armpit, a toenail or daylight, it still needs to be checked, but the system at the moment is not fit for purpose and takes too long. It needs to be automated, but not sure we have reliable enough technology to achieve that yet. The only bit that is perhaps not so black and white is when it comes to determining if a player was interfering with play, which I think should just be scrapped. If a player is on the pitch then they are interfering with play.

[daveisaclaret]

The difficulty with offside is that its determination is black or white. You are either offside or you are not. Whatever rule you apply to determine that will still need to be measured and it’s the accuracy of the measurement system that is the problem. So, if it’s an armpit, a toenail or daylight, it still needs to be checked, but the system at the moment is not fit for purpose and takes too long. It needs to be automated, but not sure we have reliable enough technology to achieve that yet. The only bit that is perhaps not so black and white is when it comes to determining if a player was interfering with play, which I think should just be scrapped. If a player is on the pitch then they are interfering with play.

So if a winger crosses from the byline he is interfering with play when the striker heads it in?

[northeastclaret]

This is one of UTC’s best ever threads , so many true and accurate comments, just hope that common sense eventually prevails for the good of the game we love.

[kaptin1]

So if a winger crosses from the byline he is interfering with play when the striker heads it in?

If he crosses the byline he’s not on the pitch

[Rileybobs]

If he crosses the byline he’s not on the pitch

Yes he is, he would be in an offside position.

[bumba]

Daylight for me, Id rather see games finish 13-13 than 0-0

I agree completely, this toenail stuff is spoiling games and can't be 100% accurate so goals are actually being disallowed that should stand. It's fair for all clubs that's the only plus point.
Personally when the lines are drawn there should be at least a green line of grass between the two lines to say he's offside but it takes too much time, I'd like them just to show a freeze frame and if he's clearly off disallow and move on if not allow the goal to stand so we get more goals and faster decisions

[kaptin1]

Yes he is, he would be in an offside position.

I disagree. Offside law states…”An attacking player may step or stay off the field of play not to be involved in active play. If the player re-enters from the goal line and becomes involved in play before the next stoppage in play, or the defending team has played the ball towards the halfway line and it is outside its penalty area, the player shall be considered to be positioned on the goal line for the purposes of offside. A player who deliberately leaves the field of play and re-enters without the referee’s permission and is not penalised for offside and gains an advantage, must be cautioned.”

[Rileybobs]

Yes, so the player is offside but will be considered not to be involved in play.

[kaptin1]

I said if he crosses the byline he is not on the pitch. He is not. I accept he is technically still in an offside position but it is not an offside offence unless he comes back on and takes part in play. My original point was about interfering with play while on the pitch. The OP questioned if a player crosses the byline when the striker heads it in is he interfering with play? I should have just answered “no”.

[daveisaclaret]

I think you have misread what I said.

[Rileybobs]

I said if he crosses the byline he is not on the pitch. He is not. I accept he is technically still in an offside position but it is not an offside offence unless he comes back on and takes part in play. My original point was about interfering with play while on the pitch. The OP questioned if a player crosses the byline when the striker heads it in is he interfering with play? I should have just answered “no”.

He said if a player crossed from the byline not crossed the byline. No worries though, I thought you were suggesting that a player could just cross the byline to avoid being offside which isn’t quite the case as we’ve established.

[Foshiznik]

The main reason i was pro-VAR was because i was sick of the "homer" referees and all the 50/50 calls being given against the small clubs and for the big 6. However, having seen VAR used successfully in other sports and international football competitions, i can't believe the Premier League and PGMOL have managed to make VAR as bad as it is and still make it possible for the big club bias. In fact, i'd say it's worse now.

[nil_desperandum]

The main reason i was pro-VAR was because i was sick of the "homer" referees and all the 50/50 calls being given against the small clubs and for the big 6.

With respect I think that that was a very naive view.
I discussed this with the person I sit next to at the time. He shared your same view.
I always thought that VAR would b used as a tool to favour the elite clubs, and I also correctly predicted that the media would love it, since it adds an extra layer of controversy to add to the debate and analysis.
I'm not happy to have been proved correct.

[spt_claret]

With a bit of luck, the wronged teams in the PL will follow suit, with the end result being we go back to how things were before the cluster **** that is VAR destroyed our enjoyment of the game.

Unlikely though…. Far too many people and far too much money invested in it now.

Not what will happen in the Prem. They'll move the goalposts on the process just like they did with VAR- pre-VAR analysis showed that with VAR Burnley would see one of the biggest swings in decisions/points gained, very next season and somehow it's as bad for us if not worse.
The big teams will win appeals the small teams won't, it'll go from refs looking for any 2nd excuse to overturn a decision for the wrong side, to any 2nd excuse to overturn a result for the wrong side.
But I'm sure I'll be called a crazy conspiracy theorist for applying the basic rule of 'follow the money'.

[Foshiznik]

With respect I think that that was a very naive view.
I discussed this with the person I sit next to at the time. He shared your same view.
I always thought that VAR would b used as a tool to favour the elite clubs, and I also correctly predicted that the media would love it, since it adds an extra layer of controversy to add to the debate and analysis.
I'm not happy to have been proved correct.

Probably was naive but having seen the use of VAR in other sports and successfully at either the World Cup or euros the summer/s before I believed it would just be used to reverse those dodgy decisions. I never could have envisaged it being used to find fault in every single penalty call or non-call and leading to ridiculous reversals

[mikeS]

VAR needs binning in the FA Cup to start with.
How you can have all PL cup ties using VAR and others not is crazy.

[bobinho]

Not what will happen in the Prem. They'll move the goalposts on the process just like they did with VAR- pre-VAR analysis showed that with VAR Burnley would see one of the biggest swings in decisions/points gained, very next season and somehow it's as bad for us if not worse.
The big teams will win appeals the small teams won't, it'll go from refs looking for any 2nd excuse to overturn a decision for the wrong side, to any 2nd excuse to overturn a result for the wrong side.
But I'm sure I'll be called a crazy conspiracy theorist for applying the basic rule of 'follow the money'.

Not by me you won’t….