TRAFFORD (AGAIN)

[Darthlaw]

I've got no real problem with Trafford, but given your post is aimed at correcting misconceptions and calling out biases, could you please confirm which game you are referring to here?

If it's Spurs away in the Cup, I'm sure you'll wish to amend your statement when you watch it back and see that Muric chucked the ball to Amdouni who took a touch before the Spurs attacking player went and scored.

Given it was a 50/50 at best, are you suggesting Muric is absolved of blame? In fairness that game Muric did throw one directly to a Spurs player and passsed one straight to Kulusevski on the edge of the box.

The point I am making is that if Trafford has the slightest connection to a conceded goal, its his fault. As you've nicely illustrated Muric more than is involved and its Amdouni's fault.

[ksrclaret]

Given it was a 50/50 at best, are you suggesting Muric is absolved of blame? In fairness that game Muric did throw one directly to a Spurs player and passsed one straight to Kulusevski on the edge of the box.

The point I am making is that if Trafford has the slightest connection to a conceded goal, its his fault. As you've nicely illustrated Muric more than is involved and its Amdouni's fault.

I'm not saying Muric is absolved of blame.

I'm saying you should amend your factually incorrect statement before calling out others for misconceptions and biases.

[Darthlaw]

Haven't read your post because it was long and likely to be stupid, but come on. I will go on the Turf and support the players as I always have, but it isn't virtuous or impressive to pretend this goalie is good.

As delicious the irony in your post is, you might want to actually read it. I more than agree it would be obtuse to pretend Trafford is seriously short in some attributes.

[kentonclaret]

No he isn't. All the saves bar 1 are routine. Legs save was OK but all keepers in prem get those.

If you are referring to the save that Trafford made in the first half, he got a good strong left hand to that to keep it out. Nothing to do with his legs.

[ksrclaret]

Tumbleweed, then. Go figure.

[matttheclaret]

Simply put, it's time for a change isn't it?

It probably has been for a while. If for no other reason, we've tried everything else. Centre backs we've tried virtually every possible combination, full backs have been changed frequently, wingers have been chosen on a coin toss seemingly.

Strangely the two players seemingly undroppable appear to be Trafford and Amdouni, arguably both hugely contributing factors to the absolute disaster this sorry season has been.

As far as Trafford is concerned though, even those of the opinion there's little between him and Muric, how can anyone claim we've benefited from making this change this season?

We've gone from replacing a goalkeeper who was integral to the way we play, who got better and better as the season went on and helped us to a 101 point title winning season to a young novice who had never previously played higher than L1 level, is weaker than a feather, has the knack of making some lovely routine saves make appear incredibly difficult and whose distribution is at best average, at worst a massive hindrance.

James Trafford might develop into a top goalkeeper, I really hope he does. But this season? For us as a PL side? Not a chance in a million years, and this is arguably Kompany's most baffling call out of a whole heap of contenders since last July.

[Darthlaw]

I'm not saying Muric is absolved of blame.

I'm saying you should amend your factually incorrect statement before calling out others for misconceptions and biases.

Sorry.

Threw it toward Amdouni (marked by Porro) who was was unable to touch it round his man, who went on to fire it into our net.

[ksrclaret]

Sorry.

Threw it toward Amdouni (marked by Porro) who was was unable to touch it round his man, who went on to fire it into our net.

Yes, that sounds much more like what actually happened.

Just shows how easy it is to exaggerate a mistake from somebody when you're looking for it.

[BurnleyFC]

Sorry.

Threw it toward Amdouni (marked by Porro) who was was unable to touch it round his man, who went on to fire it into our net.

Still Amdouni’s fault. He could’ve controlled it normally but tried to flick it around Porro instead whilst on the run.

He’s done this lots of times this season.

[Darthlaw]

Yes, that sounds much more like what actually happened.

Just shows how easy it is to exaggerate a mistake from somebody when you're looking for it.

Exaggerate. Good one.

hopefully I typed fast enough this time for you not to throw a hissy fit.

[123EasyasBFC]

Made quite a few good saves. Reflexes / positioning. One from Diaz first half and one from Nunez second half were top.

So he wasn’t excellent just made some good saves, would you have been disappointed had he not made those 2 saves you mentioned?

[ksrclaret]

Exaggerate. Good one.

hopefully I typed fast enough this time for you not to throw a hissy fit.

I think I'll stick with exaggerate.

[Darthlaw]

Still Amdouni’s fault. He could’ve controlled it normally but tried to flick it around Porro instead.

And there we have it.

He couldnt control it because it was thrown as he was running onto it, whilst Porro was intercepting.

Regardless, you'd thing the better option was not for the keeper to pass to a marked man?

[kentonclaret]

Kelleher ( Liverpool back up keeper ) or Trafford Who would you prefer ?

Kelleher, a player widely acknowledged as the world’s best number 2 goalkeeper.

Give the young lad a break.

[123EasyasBFC]

Kelleher, a player widely acknowledged as the world’s best number 2 goalkeeper.

Give the young lad a break.

He’s not widely acknowledged as the worlds best number 2, hahahaha just because klopp said he thinks he’s the world best number 2 doesn’t mean he is

[ksrclaret]

Still Amdouni’s fault. He could’ve controlled it normally but tried to flick it around Porro instead whilst on the run.

He’s done this lots of times this season.

Unfortunately, you'll not get anywhere with this, because the Trafford/ Muric debate has become like British politics.

Both sides absolutely entrenched in their views and convinced the other side are operating at the behest of an evil agenda.

This thread has illustrated it perfectly.

[Darthlaw]

I think I'll stick with exaggerate.

Yeah, you've already had one hissy fit already. Best not to make yourself look more silly for arguing the difference in a pass to a marked man with Porro stood next to him being vastly different to a pass to Porro himself, when the result was the same.

[BurnleyFC]

And there we have it.

He couldnt control it because it was thrown as he was running onto it, whilst Porro was intercepting.

Regardless, you'd thing the better option was not for the keeper to pass to a marked man?

Nonsense. I suggest you watch that goal again.

Amdoundi had ample time to move towards the ball and control it. He chose to try the cheeky flick around Porro when he looked up and saw him charging towards him.

He tries that flick a lot. He’s just not very good at pulling it off.

[ksrclaret]

Yeah, you've already had one hissy fit already. Best not to make yourself look more silly for arguing the difference in a pass to a marked man with Porro stood next to him being vastly different to a pass to Porro himself, when the result was the same.

All I'm saying is when you write a post calling out misconceptions and biases, it makes you look very silly when you include your own misconception and bias.

A throw to Porro and a throw to Amdouni marked by Porro are not the same and I'm sorry that you've discredited your pious waffle with such tripe.

[BurnleyFC]

All I'm saying is when you write a post calling out misconceptions and biases, it makes you look very silly when you include your own misconception and bias.

A throw to Porro and a throw to Amdouni marked by Porro are not the same and I'm sorry that you've discredited your pious waffle with such tripe.

Amdouni wasn’t even marked by Porro. He literally stutters backwards waiting for the ball instead of going to meet it and tries a flick around him when he has a look up and sees Porro charging towards him.

100% Amdouni’s fault.

[BurnleyFC]

IMG_5011.png (1.87 MiB) Viewed 1107 times

[BurnleyFC]

Porro isn’t even in the frame here.

[Darthlaw]

Your comments of 'pious waffle' along with your 'tumbleweed' hissy fits at slow responses, only serve to look bad on you rather than me.

Engage in discussion without your insults if you have the capacity.

[RVclaret]

Pretty clear this was 100% Muric’s fault.

[boatshed bill]

Pretty clear this was 100% Muric’s fault.

Absolutely not his fault.
Decent throw out, and Amdouni had ample opportunity to control the throw out.
It's football, mistakes get punished. The over-analysis by all and sundry is what's wrong.

[kentonclaret]

Well it was nothing like an open goal, so let’s start with that. And then go with the fact Fofana scored twice last week and made his first start today. Trafford had been here all season and cost us on a number of occasions. Maybe that’s why Trafford is getting more heat.

Fofana was brought in as a loan signing to convert the chances that are created. He was presented with 2 gilt edged chances today and fluffed his lines on both.

[Darthlaw]

IMG_5011.png

I've just been trawling youtube to find a video with the throw out and couldnt find one, only where it cuts to Amdouni being dispossessed. I would say from the angle, the ball is being thrown slightly to Amdouni's left, for him to run on to, which I recall.

Post the link and I'll be happy to take a look and retract if necessary.

[ksrclaret]

Your comments of 'pious waffle' along with your 'tumbleweed' hissy fits at slow responses, only serve to look bad on you rather than me.

Engage in discussion without your insults if you have the capacity.

Apologies if you were insulted.

As I said at the start, I've got nothing against Trafford, but your reaction to me presenting something even resembling a defence of Muric shows that the debate on the goalkeeper has become too polarised. Sad to see the the number of misconceptions and biases on both sides.

[BurnleyFC]

I've just been trawling youtube to find a video with the throw out and couldnt find one, only where it cuts to Amdouni being dispossessed. I would say from the angle, the ball is being thrown slightly to Amdouni's left, for him to run on to, which I recall.

Post the link and I'll be happy to take a look and retract if necessary.

https://youtu.be/b-SMnV3aAO4?si=tL_lf0qHFH3yNmVc

From 6 minutes onwards.

Form your own opinion from it but I thought it was a good throw out and Amdouni purposely tried the flick around Porro, trying to catch him out, instead of moving towards the ball to control it.

[Darthlaw]

Form your own opinion from it but I thought it was a good throw out and Amdouni purposely tried the flick around Porro, trying to catch him out, instead of moving towards the ball to control it.

Thanks.

As I see it, Muric throws it for Amdouni to run onto at which point Porro is underway to intercept, having anticipated the throw out. As it gets closer to Amdouni, he goes for the flick which then Porro does intercept as he's a yard away from him at that point. To be clear, I never suggested this was 100% Muric's fault but he certainly has a part to play.

I think the important distinction I'm trying to make here (from my original post) though is that when Trafford is involved in build up to a goal, the anti-trafford echo chamber blame him 100%. Whereas when the Spurs goal happened it was 100% Amdouni. Clearly neither is the case.

[ksrclaret]

To be clear, I never suggested this was 100% Muric's fault but he certainly has a part to play.

Genuine question here - how does this fit with what you said about him throwing it directly to Porro?

I appreciate that you later corrected the record after I pointed it out, but clearly you did imply that it was 100% Muric's fault because no other Burnley player could have been involved.

[Darthlaw]

Genuine question here - how does this fit with what you said about him throwing it directly to Porro?

I appreciate that you later corrected the record after I pointed it out, but clearly you did imply that it was 100% Muric's fault because no other Burnley player could have been involved.

I didnt clearly imply anything. Read it again.

I was highlighting the inconsistencies of those who seem to promote this idea Trafford makes mistakes every week. I gave four examples where Trafford had been firmly blamed for concession of goals where others were involved. I then gave an example of a goal where Muric definitely had involvement but blame was firmly placed on the other player.

[Wile E Coyote]

Trafford getting too much stick on here , VK was a top player at THE highest level, he chooses the keeper.
As a manager his reputation is on the line, so why do people assume he has a massive blind spot regarding this position?
He and his staff are vastly experienced, the way some on here are criticising trafford, anyone would think he had no more ability than the tea lady.
Pickford became a figure of fun for a lot of fans for no good reason too, its like the emperors new clothes with this lad , once it became a topic to slag him relentlessly, every one wants to put the boot in. Not justified.
He hasn't got the most rocksteady defence in front of him, hence his business between the sticks.

[LincsWoldsClaret]

Despite the fact that was the first error that Trafford has made that is solely attributable to him. I expect Muric to start next week - as we’ve seen, VK punishes mistakes fairly relentlessly.

[whiffa]

Trafford getting too much stick on here , VK was a top player at THE highest level, he chooses the keeper.
As a manager his reputation is on the line, so why do people assume he has a massive blind spot regarding this position?
He and his staff are vastly experienced, the way some on here are criticising trafford, anyone would think he had no more ability than the tea lady.
Pickford became a figure of fun for a lot of fans for no good reason too, its like the emperors new clothes with this lad , once it became a topic to slag him relentlessly, every one wants to put the boot in. Not justified.
He hasn't got the most rocksteady defence in front of him, hence his business between the sticks.

I appreciate what you're saying and I really wanted to give Trafford a chance, but we can't deny he's at fault for errors that are leading to us conceding goals. I'm personally not sure Muric would do any better, but usually when players make mistakes or are out of form - they're benched and fight for their place back. I think in the past 2-3 games our defence has actually been fairly solid infront of him.

[ksrclaret]

I didnt clearly imply anything. Read it again.

I was highlighting the inconsistencies of those who seem to promote this idea Trafford makes mistakes every week. I gave four examples where Trafford had been firmly blamed for concession of goals where others were involved. I then gave an example of a goal where Muric definitely had involvement but blame was firmly placed on the other player.

Hmm. Inconsistency has certainly been the theme of the goalkeeper debate, that much is true, at least.

[forzagranata]

Its hard to escape the feeling that Trafford is playing because the club invested a huge amount of money in him.

Same with Amdouni and to some extent Ramsey.

[Darthlaw]

Its hard to escape the feeling that Trafford is playing because the club invested a huge amount of money in him.

Same with Amdouni and to some extent Ramsey.

Or Muric monumentally **** the bed in June last year.

Something is off for him not to be playing considering corners against us are like penalties.

[123EasyasBFC]

Its hard to escape the feeling that Trafford is playing because the club invested a huge amount of money in him.

Same with Amdouni and to some extent Ramsey.

I agree regarding Trafford and Amdouni but Ramsey has had spells out the matchday squad which seems crazy how a team like Burnley can afford to keep 15m players out the match day squad.

I’m beginning to wonder if Ramsey is getting more game time now with an eye on next season. I do think he played well today

[whiffa]

Its hard to escape the feeling that Trafford is playing because the club invested a huge amount of money in him.

Same with Amdouni and to some extent Ramsey.

I see flares and potential with Amdouni, that warrants him starting. Ramsey I feel is playing out of position whereas I think if he was playing in the #10 role that Amdouni fills I think we'd see a lot more from him.

[Boss Hogg]

Looked diabolical on MOTD and rightly criticised.

[Casper2]

Kompany bought a League 1 keeper with potential, Trafford is still a League 1 keeper with potential.

[Swizzlestick]

I don’t even think it’s the money. He did drop Tresor eventually and he preferred Koleosho ahead of Odobert pre injury despite him costing less. I think he’s just gone ‘all in’ with him and he’s been expecting him to grow into the role as number one. Unfortunately for us, it hasn’t happened, so it’s whether he bites the bullet now. Again, unfortunately, it’s all rather academic now.

[123EasyasBFC]

Watching MOTD, the first goal we all know is Traffords error but the second and third are so avoidable before it gets to Trafford which is frustrating. I think Trafford is weak for the second too it’s a weak ball from Elliott, Trafford could claim before Diaz gets there

[Westleigh]

Thanks.

As I see it, Muric throws it for Amdouni to run onto at which point Porro is underway to intercept, having anticipated the throw out. As it gets closer to Amdouni, he goes for the flick which then Porro does intercept as he's a yard away from him at that point. To be clear, I never suggested this was 100% Muric's fault but he certainly has a part to play.

I think the important distinction I'm trying to make here (from my original post) though is that when Trafford is involved in build up to a goal, the anti-trafford echo chamber blame him 100%. Whereas when the Spurs goal happened it was 100% Amdouni. Clearly neither is the case.

It’s rich when the Trafford brigade are scratching around to find a fault that Muric may have made weeks ago ,it would be nice if he was given half a chance to see if he could cope in the Premier League ,but it obviously want happen.

[Darthlaw]

Hmm. Inconsistency has certainly been the theme of the goalkeeper debate, that much is true, at least.

Interestingly (this is genuinely not accusatory) when you saw my examples of Trafford being attributed with 100% blame where others were involved, did this mean you judged my Muric example as me being the counter and suggesting him being 100% at fault?

I only ask as this would support my original theory of the illusion of truth around Traffords mistakes ‘every week’ being purported by the 5-6 (possibly less as it’s becoming apparent they had multiple usernames).

[Westleigh]

Despite the fact that was the first error that Trafford has made that is solely attributable to him. I expect Muric to start next week - as we’ve seen, VK punishes mistakes fairly relentlessly.

Touch of irony there Lincs

[Wile E Coyote]

Looked diabolical on MOTD and rightly criticised.

in fairness though Boss Hogg, they highlighted how shocking the team were regarding set pieces, not just our keeper.
Shearer commented on trafford being at fault admittedly, but he saw the lack of ability in the entire defence too.

[alwaysaclaret]

Kompany bought a League 1 keeper with potential, Trafford is still a League 1 keeper with potential.

Absolutely agree with this

[ksrclaret]

Interestingly (this is genuinely not accusatory) when you saw my examples of Trafford being attributed with 100% blame where others were involved, did this mean you judged my Muric example as me being the counter and suggesting him being 100% at fault?

I only ask as this would support my original theory of the illusion of truth around Traffords mistakes ‘every week’ being purported by the 5-6 (possibly less as it’s becoming apparent they had multiple usernames).

Yes I did judge it like that, but only because you said Muric threw it directly to the Spurs player so to me it sounded like you considered him to be 100% at fault.

Had you described what had actually happened originally, I'd have viewed it as a totally fair point because there is without doubt inconsistency in the way the two goalkeepers are held accountable.

It is certainly true that there are a select few posters on this message board that have a strange obsession with Muric or strange hatred of Trafford, or both.