TRAFFORD (AGAIN)

[dsr]

The bottom line is, we can't afford a GK who regularly lets his first shot on target in.

Yesterday, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, City to name a few.
We need far better.

If you're criticising Trafford because he let in a goal volleyed from the edge of the six yard box, then you've left reasonable criticism way behind.

[Quickenthetempo]

If you're criticising Trafford because he let in a goal volleyed from the edge of the six yard box, then you've left reasonable criticism way behind.

I'm trying not to personalise it with him and just state what we need from a GK.
The game is over for us in the prem if we concede first.

[dsr]

I'm trying not to personalise it with him and just state what we need from a GK.
The game is over for us in the prem if we concede first.

If their first shot is a full blooded volley from the edge of the goal area, then it's irrelevant who the goalkeeper is. Look at the defenders who let him get there, not the keeper who failed to save the shot.

[kentonclaret]

The bottom line is, we can't afford a GK who regularly lets his first shot on target in.

Yesterday, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, City to name a few.
We need far better.

As the second lowest scoring team in the PL we need far better players in the attacking third of the field as well.

[Ric_C]

Just laughable comparing the distribution from Onana (a keeper who cost around £50 million) with that of a young keeper like Trafford. Why don’t you compare the finishing of Fofana with Ollie Watkins?

I was comparing Onanas long ball attribute with Muric if you actually read my post

[Ric_C]

Trafford played at least 3 long, accurate balls to the right wing yesterday.

Not disputing that, but he's not got the long ping in his locker. ie Muric v West Brom last season away as one of many examples.

Not Trafford's fault, but it is an effective plan B when teams press with intensity

[Quickenthetempo]

As the second lowest scoring team in the PL we need far better players in the attacking third of the field as well.

Oh I agree with that, but a decent keeper keeps you in a game and confidence up.

[Quickenthetempo]

If their first shot is a full blooded volley from the edge of the goal area, then it's irrelevant who the goalkeeper is. Look at the defenders who let him get there, not the keeper who failed to save the shot.

I think most Premier league keepers save that shot yesterday.
Anything within reach from a standing position should be saved.

Trafford gambled left, instead of watching and relying on reflex.
It's not a major error but don't make out no other keeper saves it.

[kentonclaret]

I was comparing Onanas long ball attribute with Muric if you actually read my post

Your post was a criticism of Trafford was it not?

Even if the ball is pinged up to our strikers Rashford won’t be there to hammer it in from 25 yards. Second lowest scoring team in the PL for a reason.

As Troy Deeney remarked on MOTD2 we could have carried on playing all day and still not looked like scoring. Totally inept at BOTH ends of the pitch. Disorganised defensively with attackers given acres of space to run in to and bear down on goal and wasteful in attack.

[StayingDown4Ever]

I think most Premier league keepers save that shot yesterday.
Anything within reach from a standing position should be saved.

Trafford gambled left, instead of watching and relying on reflex.
It's not a major error but don't make out no other keeper saves it.

I’m the biggest Trafford critic going but I don’t think there’s a great deal he could have done about that one!

[Darthlaw]

The bottom line is, we can't afford a GK who regularly lets his first shot on target in.

Yesterday, Arsenal, Liverpool, Everton, City to name a few.
We need far better.

Prime Schmeichel concedes the first yesterday (a free volley inside our six yard box), against Arsenal (I assume you mean Odegaards) and City's free header inside our six yard box. Trafford also saved the first shot on target against Everton.

We need a better defence to not allow free efforts inside our six yard box before you start worrying about our GK not making miracle saves.

[dsr]

I think most Premier league keepers save that shot yesterday.
Anything within reach from a standing position should be saved.

Trafford gambled left, instead of watching and relying on reflex.
It's not a major error but don't make out no other keeper saves it.

Give over. Rely on reflexes? If keepers could rely on reflexes to save a volley from 6 yards, then why don't they rely on reflexes to save penalties from twice as far out? Or would you expect most PL goalkeepers to save penalties too?

[TopCat]

Apart from him dawdling on the ball, not sure where you can criticise him yesterday.
And even then there was little/no movement in front of him.

[Quickenthetempo]

Prime Schmeichel concedes the first yesterday (a free volley inside our six yard box), against Arsenal (I assume you mean Odegaards) and City's free header inside our six yard box. Trafford also saved the first shot on target against Everton.

We need a better defence to not allow free efforts inside our six yard box before you start worrying about our GK not making miracle saves.

If I said Sheff Utd or Luton need a keeper that saves the first shot on target to keep them in games. Would you understand the point better, Without needing to defend the keeper?

[dsr]

If I said Sheff Utd or Luton need a keeper that saves the first shot on target to keep them in games. Would you understand the point better, Without needing to defend the keeper?

I understand why we need a goalkeeper who saves every shot, not just the first. But just as importantly, we need a man who can score a goal from the kickoff every week which would prevent us going behind to the first shot on target.

The problem with what you are saying is that we need a goalkeeper who doesn't exist. No goalkeeper on earth will save every shot.

[Darthlaw]

If I said Sheff Utd or Luton need a keeper that saves the first shot on target to keep them in games. Would you understand the point better, Without needing to defend the keeper?

If you gave examples of the Luton keeper conceding from players unmarked in the 6 yard box, indicating they should have been saved, then no I wouldnt.

As it is, you're merely making the point (regardless of the team) that everyone needs a keeper who can save the first shot, even if its a miracle save.

[Casper2]

Apart from him dawdling on the ball, not sure where you can criticise him yesterday.
And even then there was little/no movement in front of him.

He’s told to dawdle , not his fault

[Jamesy]

Apart from him dawdling on the ball, not sure where you can criticise him yesterday.
And even then there was little/no movement in front of him.

Shite coaching.

[alwaysaclaret]

Wasting your breath. People seem to remember football's a team game when it suits, people took a while to get used to Muric last year (myself included, he was scary early doors) but that was a new system, the same people who understood and defended that system then suddenly have amnesia as to how important the keeper is in our system. Even though we've been lurching into ill-defined long balls to small guys an awful lot, we still deploy the keeper more than almost any time and at least attempt to build out before after a good bit of stalling we hit it long. Even if you do think he's better at shot stopping, positioning, commanding the box, aerial balls, or set plays (all of which I'd dispute) there's a very important part of our system that relies on something he is poor at.

He's not developed much- I think Kompany's hanging him out to dry on that front, I've not got anger towards Trafford just pity. He's managed to avoid being lobbed from range for a while, he's not had a mare from a corner for a while. He's still not exactly demonstrating himself as much of a key asset, let alone future England worthy outside of the media opinion machine. Particularly don't get "We'll make a profit even if we go down, look at Ramsdale". Slight difference is Ramsdale was Sheffield's player of the season. Trafford isn't ours.

Like muric was championship keeper of the season last season, he was the one to develop, but according to vk best to s***k £19m on a rookie that's played at league one level and develop him, can't think of anything more stupid.

[alwaysaclaret]

I’ll third that. O’Shea was especially dishing out a bollocking yesterday.

Yes, I noticed that too

[NL Claret]

One thing that is clear, some UTC posters have really lost the plot and James Trafford is spoiling their quality of life.

The level of knowledge of the art of goalkeeping is now above the levels we saw when Hart was 1st choice. Some comedy gold on here.

[burnleymik]

Muric was very good at the sweeper role and made us far more effective at dealing with those through balls and balls over the top. Trafford just isn't anywhere near as good as that and also then Distributing the ball well, which also takes the pressure off.

Given VK wants to play a high line and out from the back choosing Trafford for this style, one he has no real experience of, it seems bonkers that we have a keeper on the bench that managed to do all these things very well last season.

Apart from shot stopping, there isn't anything I would say that Trafford is better than Muric at.

The logic for keeping playing him at this point is what?

[Leisure]

Muric was very good at the sweeper role and made us far more effective at dealing with those through balls and balls over the top. Trafford just isn't anywhere near as good as that and also then Distributing the ball well, which also takes the pressure off.

Given VK wants to play a high line and out from the back choosing Trafford for this style, one he has no real experience of, it seems bonkers that we have a keeper on the bench that managed to do all these things very well last season.

Apart from shot stopping, there isn't anything I would say that Trafford is better than Muric at.

The logic for keeping playing him at this point is what?

Shot stopping!

[Burnley1989]

One thing that is clear, some UTC posters have really lost the plot and James Trafford is spoiling their quality of life.

The level of knowledge of the art of goalkeeping is now above the levels we saw when Hart was 1st choice. Some comedy gold on here.

The boards gone a little mental, we now even have a thread on what our 3rd choice goalkeeper must be thinking of the matter

[THEWELLERNUT70]

Apart from him dawdling on the ball, not sure where you can criticise him yesterday.
And even then there was little/no movement in front of him.

Again that's utter BS regarding yesterday's match as there was a number of Burnley players showing their frustration at Traffords slow distribution. It wasn't just the fans yesterday it was actually team mates too showing their frustration

[Bordeauxclaret]

Again that's utter BS regarding yesterday's match as there was a number of Burnley players showing their frustration at Traffords slow distribution. It wasn't just the fans yesterday it was actually team mates too showing their frustration

Clear as day from his team mates.

So he’s either being told by the manager to do it but the rest of the team don’t want him to or he’s not following instructions which begs the question of why he’s still being picked.

[burnleymik]

Shot stopping!

If we played a Dyche style I would be with you 100%!

[quoonbeatz]

Clear as day from his team mates.

So he’s either being told by the manager to do it but the rest of the team don’t want him to or he’s not following instructions which begs the question of why he’s still being picked.

Confidence thing. He's waiting for a less risky option but often waits so long it ends up risky. The movement ahead of him is crap so it's a vicious cycle really. He needs taking out of the firing line for everyone's sake now, but mainly his. Season is long gone anyway.

[spt_claret]

That's why I mentioned the rating. It doesn't say what the rating is trying to say, but I assume it's an assessment of all factors, and Trafford wins.

It's a lot easier to play a short pass to a man who isn't marked than it is to play a long pass to a man who is marked. That, I suspect, is why Verbruggen has higher pass accuracy, not because he is inherently a better passer. Or at least, not necessarily because he's a better passer. The number of short passes that Trafford messes up, Palace last week notwithstanding, is small. Perhaps on the columns we didn't see, the percentage for long passes are separated out from the percentage for short passes?

They claim their rating is based on an algorithm but it also contains a results weighting for outfielders and has been criticised in the past for not actually being an algorithm. It also refers to impact on a game, so I would be interested to see if it prioritises quantity over percentage rates. I'd suspect it does for the simple fact that a player who has lots of passes, dribbles, shots etc will have been involved more thus "impacted" more than a player with a better percentage who only played part of the game and had less quantitative involvement. Pure speculation on my part but I'm very familiar with misleading statistics and interpretations and the rating stat is an interpretation of descriptive statistics, not the raw stats themselves. Without knowing what the algorithm actually is in full it's not worth looking at over raw stats and ideally the pass ranges, heatmaps, and difficulty stats. The rating stat gives some players very low or high ratings even if their metrics are pretty good it's the measure I pay least attention to on any of these sites as they never say how they reach it.

No one was moving to allow him to have done that. You’re all so fixated on watching Trafford that you’re not seeing the bigger picture.

I disagree, the bigger picture is exactly the point in terms of how our keeper enables our play style. Yes the defence don't always show for the ball great but his decision making and accuracy is still poor. He's not able to find a pass like Muric, who while he definitely has a scare in him as well is better at finding passes at all ranges or when there's not as good immediate options or movement. The difference has genuinely been apparent when he's played in the cup- yes I know about the Amdouni muckup which I think is a mix but more Amdounis fault for mucking about, which he also did in the league one game. He's not 100% of the problem but he still is a big part of the problem.

[NL Claret]

Whilst Trafford is taking all flak it helps other under performers to stay under the radar.

Taylor for example, set the tone at Palace with a crackpot volleyed back pass, some did question Trafford’s heading ability, honestly they did.

What was Taylor doing for the 2nd goal? Why did he turn his back on the ball? Possibly Trafford’s fault as Charlie has no confidence in.

Some will give Taylor 6 or 7 on the player ratings based on they like him and he played well in 2018.

Another issue though is that Taylor has no competition, not his fault.

[quoonbeatz]

There was a complete bellend behind us yesterday abusing Trafford throughout the game, especially the second half. The height of this was when Vitinho made that lung busting run to get back and turn away from their forward, our guy chose to berate Trafford for not coming out of his box to clear.

And by abuse, I mean calling him a ******* prick every 2 minutes.

That's why he needs taking out. If his inclusion is not toxic already, it will be soon enough.

[Row Z]

Just laughable comparing the distribution from Onana (a keeper who cost around £50 million) with that of a young keeper like Trafford. Why don’t you compare the finishing of Fofana with Ollie Watkins?

And yet Muric cost a small percentage of that of Trafford and yet managed to put Tella clean through countless times last season to score, win penalties, win corners etc with exactly this long range pass ….

[Row Z]

Clear as day from his team mates.

So he’s either being told by the manager to do it but the rest of the team don’t want him to or he’s not following instructions which begs the question of why he’s still being picked.

One O’Shea telling off led to Trafford looking over at Kompany as if to say ‘I’m doing what I’m being coached to do’ - looked like a school child telling his teacher.

[Darthlaw]

And yet Muric cost a small percentage of that of Trafford and yet managed to put Tella clean through countless times last season to score, win penalties, win corners etc with exactly this long range pass ….

... in the championship.

[Nori1958]

And yet Muric cost a small percentage of that of Trafford and yet managed to put Tella clean through countless times last season to score, win penalties, win corners etc with exactly this long range pass ….

He did, no argument.

Do you think the opposition defenders in the premier league would allow that to happen?

And if by chance they did, who is he passing it to that would have a similar outcome?

[bumba]

He did, no argument.

Do you think the opposition defenders in the premier league would allow that to happen?

And if by chance they did, who is he passing it to that would have a similar outcome?

Bruun Larsson scores a goal from a long ball over the top from a centre back, so those goals can be scored if the pass is good enough.

[IanMcL]

Again that's utter BS regarding yesterday's match as there was a number of Burnley players showing their frustration at Traffords slow distribution. It wasn't just the fans yesterday it was actually team mates too showing their frustration

I cannot think of another club, where a keeper with his current record, would retain his place in the team.

Teammates also dissatisfied. It reflects poorly on the managers judgement.

[boatshed bill]

He did, no argument.

Do you think the opposition defenders in the premier league would allow that to happen?

And if by chance they did, who is he passing it to that would have a similar outcome?

I don't think any PL team would allow Muric to take up the out-of -box positions he was afforded in the Championship.

[StayingDown4Ever]

If we’re all agreed Muric was very, very good at Championship level (as per his goalkeeper of the season award etc) and that he will meet the requirements of us playing out from the back when we should have 60/ 70% of the ball every game - would it be even more outrageous to start Trafford next season than it was this season?

[CoolClaret]

If we’re all agreed Muric was very, very good at Championship level (as per his goalkeeper of the season award etc) and that he will meet the requirements of us playing out from the back when we should have 60/ 70% of the ball every game - would it be even more outrageous to start Trafford next season than it was this season?

For me yes and would be a very strange position to be in to have the PFA Champ keeper of the year potentially sat on the bench - this applies to the entire squad though.

If we don't win the league then we will have by definition gone backwards.

[Nori1958]

If we’re all agreed Muric was very, very good at Championship level (as per his goalkeeper of the season award etc) and that he will meet the requirements of us playing out from the back when we should have 60/ 70% of the ball every game - would it be even more outrageous to start Trafford next season than it was this season?

One will be sold, if that's Muric ( fingers crossed so this board can get back to normal, and people can revert to having only one username) then yes Trafford starts

[Rileybobs]

Worth noting that Connor Roberts and Josh Brownhill were both also in the PFA team of the year.

[StayingDown4Ever]

One will be sold, if that's Muric ( fingers crossed so this board can get back to normal, and people can revert to having only one username) then yes Trafford starts

wow. Still wants Trafford in goal after the pony season he’s had and having the most recent Championship keeper of the season available for the Championship.

[Nori1958]

wow. Still wants Trafford in goal after the pony season he’s had and having the most recent Championship keeper of the season available for the Championship.

I didn't say I wanted him in goal, another day and still you're making stuff up. If he's the one left here he plays, that would be the managers decision, not mine. I'd have no problem with Muric in goal on a footballing basis, but this board would be insufferable

[CoolClaret]

Worth noting that Connor Roberts and Josh Brownhill were both also in the PFA team of the year.

Yes and the same would apply there - if we have two players in their respective positions that do not perform to their levels that they did last season it would be a strange position to be in.

[Rileybobs]

Yes and the same would apply there - if we have two players in their respective positions that do not perform to their levels that they did last season it would be a strange position to be in.

Yes, sorry I wasn’t really suggesting otherwise. More making the point that being in the PFA champ team of the season doesn’t necessarily make you the best in said position, and definitely doesn’t mean you are good enough to make the step up to the PL as Brownhill and Roberts have proven. In fact, I don’t think Roberts is even a stand out right back at Championship level.

[CoolClaret]

Yes, sorry I wasn’t really suggesting otherwise. More making the point that being in the PFA champ team of the season doesn’t necessarily make you the best in said position, and definitely doesn’t mean you are good enough to make the step up to the PL as Brownhill and Roberts have proven. In fact, I don’t think Roberts is even a stand out right back at Championship level.

Roberts was awesome last year for us in that role - specifically post WC

Brownhill was great last season as well and like Roberts has been in his recent years of playing into the Champ... Of course that doesn't necessarily suggest that you'll make the grade in the PL but we're talking about where we're going to be next season.

PFA remember is voted for by other players.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Roberts was getting pelters for half the season by some on here.

[123EasyasBFC]

Roberts was getting pelters for half the season by some on here.

Roberts admitted his levels weren’t as they should due to his mind being on the World Cup

[spt_claret]

Roberts was getting pelters for half the season by some on here.

He was awful for the first half of the season and by his own admission not giving it 100%. Fully deserved criticism. Even now he's a divisive player for me, something about his brand of shithousery tips over into the wrong sort for me- the phantom handball attempt, his tendency at times to feign injury I distinctly remember one corner where he fell down holding his head at nothing. He's a trier when he's not distracted by the Welsh team, but he's not a Barnes type loveable dickhead to me.

One will be sold, if that's Muric ( fingers crossed so this board can get back to normal, and people can revert to having only one username) then yes Trafford starts

I didn't say I wanted him in goal, another day and still you're making stuff up. If he's the one left here he plays, that would be the managers decision, not mine. I'd have no problem with Muric in goal on a footballing basis, but this board would be insufferable

Well that's a new stance. Wanting a player gone so the posts on here are more to your liking. Most of your posts seem to be more about ridiculing/silencing other posters than about a positive footballing contribution, even this is framed as "let's shut up the people I dont like" rather than an actual footballing justification. Plenty posted on here bothers me. You don't have to post, you don't get to shut others up because you don't like their posts, and your priorities seem here to be more about one upping other posters than anything else. To complain about the content on this board when that's your focus is ironic to say the least.