Which team wins

[bumba]

Muric
Roberts THB Beyer Maatsen
Cullen Cork
Benson Brownhill Zaroury
Barnes


Trafford
Assignon O'Shea Esteve Delcroix
Berge Brownhill
Ramsey Amdouni Odabert
Fofana

Which team wins the game? How have we managed to get so much worse??

[Westleigh]

Can you imagine Trafford against Barnes?

[Rick_Muller]

Genuinely I think this season team is more talented and “better” than last seasons team.

I expected a knee jerk from being beaten by Arsenal (who hammered the hammers last week don’t forget) but this is UTC supreme high level over reactions going on here.

[ElectroClaret]

How have we managed to get so much worse??

Possibly because the bloke in the dugout has been found wanting at this level?

[Colburn_Claret]

Genuinely I think this season team is more talented and “better” than last seasons team.

I expected a knee jerk from being beaten by Arsenal (who hammered the hammers last week don’t forget) but this is UTC supreme high level over reactions going on here.

I think we have more talented players this season, but the problem is we just aren't a team. We look so disorganised, and a million miles away from where we were last season. Kompany had warned last year that it would take months before the players clicked, and understood their roles without thinking about it. Yet this season against better players, better teams, we have chucked teams together willy nilly all season, and the majority of players who were already into 'his' system have been discarded.

The fault can only go down to VK, he's turned out to be more stubborn than SD, and if part of management is looking after your players, the damage he has inflicted on Muric, Benson and Zaroury............can only be guessed.

[Rick_Muller]

I think we have more talented players this season, but the problem is we just aren't a team. We look so disorganised, and a million miles away from where we were last season. Kompany had warned last year that it would take months before the players clicked, and understood their roles without thinking about it. Yet this season against better players, better teams, we have chucked teams together willy nilly all season, and the majority of players who were already into 'his' system have been discarded.

The fault can only go down to VK, he's turned out to be more stubborn than SD, and if part of management is looking after your players, the damage he has inflicted on Muric, Benson and Zaroury............can only be guessed.

It lies partially with VK but just as the team began to get settled we’ve had injuries. Koleosho, Beyer etc - it’s like everything is stacked against us.

It’s certainly not the time to get rid of VK though as some over reactionary “fans” appear to want.

[Colburn_Claret]

It lies partially with VK but just as the team began to get settled we’ve had injuries. Koleosho, Beyer etc - it’s like everything is stacked against us.

It’s certainly not the time to get rid of VK though as some over reactionary “fans” appear to want.

I agree we haven't had the rub of the green, VAR alone has cost us many points, and I wasn't advocating getting rid of VK, just saying that a lot of the problems could have been avoided. Playing Benson, Zaroury, Muric might have made no difference at all to the results, but at least it wouldn't be a stick for others to beat him with, and the players themselves would appreciate they'd been given a chance.

[alwaysaclaret]

Genuinely I think this season team is more talented and “better” than last seasons team.

I expected a knee jerk from being beaten by Arsenal (who hammered the hammers last week don’t forget) but this is UTC supreme high level over reactions going on here.

Not just Arsenal though is it, we've won 3 in 25, and taken a few other pastings along the way, yes only the best can compete with Arsenal atm, but remember Luton at home a few weeks ago, bit controversial I'll admit, but they had the fight and nous to get over the line, something we don't possess, although can't lay blame fully on the players, it's on vk.

[NewClaret]

I agree we haven't had the rub of the green, VAR alone has cost us many points, and I wasn't advocating getting rid of VK, just saying that a lot of the problems could have been avoided. Playing Benson, Zaroury, Muric might have made no difference at all to the results, but at least it wouldn't be a stick for others to beat him with, and the players themselves would appreciate they'd been given a chance.

I really, really don’t think VK should pick players on the basis

a) fans don’t have a stick to beat him with
b) so players can say they’ve had a chance

I think he needs to pick the best players for each game without considering fans opinions or doing players any favours.

Although I think there is a balance now in terms of focussing on the development of players who will be with us next year.

[bumba]

It lies partially with VK but just as the team began to get settled we’ve had injuries. Koleosho, Beyer etc - it’s like everything is stacked against us.

It’s certainly not the time to get rid of VK though as some over reactionary “fans” appear to want.

One home win against bottom of the league and only 13 points and relegated by Christmas yet you think fans are over reacting?

[daveisaclaret]

Last season's team absolutely dicks on the team we put out yesterday. Last season VK seemed to understand the value of leadership and experience.

[RVclaret]

Let’s make the comparison a bit fairer and use the team that lost 5-2 at Sheffield United mid season and had some injuries

——————Muric
Vitinho THB Beyer Maatsen
—————Cork Cullen
Benson——Bastien—Zaroury
——————-Tella

Which team wins? The one that should have got a point at Anfield or the one that got dicked 5-2 at Sheffield?

[BurnleyFC]

Muric
Roberts THB Beyer Maatsen
Cullen Cork
Benson Brownhill Zaroury
Barnes


Trafford
Assignon O'Shea Esteve Delcroix
Berge Brownhill
Ramsey Amdouni Odabert
Fofana

Which team wins the game? How have we managed to get so much worse??

The first one I think, but we’d still have enough players left over to field a third team, such is the bloated nature of the squad.

[getbennyon]

Let’s make the comparison a bit fairer and use the team that lost 5-2 at Sheffield United mid season and had some injuries

——————Muric
Vitinho THB Beyer Maatsen
—————Cork Cullen
Benson——Bastien—Zaroury
——————-Tella

Which team wins? The one that should have got a point at Anfield or the one that got dicked 5-2 at Sheffield?

The team last season didn't get dicked at Sheffield United, the goalkeeper had a horror game just like the kid currently in goal.

There isn't any evidence to support the idea that the current team is better than the one last season the evidence points to the contrary. Our league position relative to Luton/Sheffield United combined with the performance at Bournemouth and the historic achievements of 100-point promoted teams into the Prem.

It's pretty conclusive.

[bumba]

Let’s make the comparison a bit fairer and use the team that lost 5-2 at Sheffield United mid season and had some injuries

——————Muric
Vitinho THB Beyer Maatsen
—————Cork Cullen
Benson——Bastien—Zaroury
——————-Tella

Which team wins? The one that should have got a point at Anfield or the one that got dicked 5-2 at Sheffield?

I still think the team above wins, Benson, Zaroury or Tella would score one of the chances missed last week

[Newcastleclaret93]

Genuinely I think this season team is more talented and “better” than last seasons team.

I expected a knee jerk from being beaten by Arsenal (who hammered the hammers last week don’t forget) but this is UTC supreme high level over reactions going on here.

First time in Burnley’s premier league history we achieved an Xgot of Zero according to Xg philosopher

It wasn’t just a beating it was an embarrassment. We literally didn’t even threaten Arsenal.

[daveisaclaret]

Let’s make the comparison a bit fairer and use the team that lost 5-2 at Sheffield United mid season and had some injuries

——————Muric
Vitinho THB Beyer Maatsen
—————Cork Cullen
Benson——Bastien—Zaroury
——————-Tella

Which team wins? The one that should have got a point at Anfield or the one that got dicked 5-2 at Sheffield?

It's quite funny and very transparent that in most contexts you'd be furious if someone tried to use the Sheffield United match (one of 3 defeats in 46) to define last season yet when it's necessary you expect everyone to treat it as a good faith debating point.

[RVclaret]

The team last season didn't get dicked at Sheffield United, the goalkeeper had a horror game just like the kid currently in goal.

There isn't any evidence to support the idea that the current team is better than the one last season the evidence points to the contrary. Our league position relative to Luton/Sheffield United combined with the performance at Bournemouth and the historic achievements of 100-point promoted teams into the Prem.

It's pretty conclusive.

I was there. The second half was the very definition of a dicking. We were lucky it wasn’t 7.

[bumba]

It's quite funny and very transparent that in most contexts you'd be furious if someone tried to use the Sheffield United match (one of 3 defeats in 46) to define last season yet when it's necessary you expect everyone to treat it as a good faith debating point.

It's because their defence of this season has ran out of excuses

[RVclaret]

It's quite funny and very transparent that in most contexts you'd be furious if someone tried to use the Sheffield United match (one of 3 defeats in 46) to define last season yet when it's necessary you expect everyone to treat it as a good faith debating point.

Seems a bit of a fairer comparison given yesterday we played one of the best teams in the world while last season we played a team we’ve beat 5-0 this season. Interesting debating point imo.

[taio]

Let’s make the comparison a bit fairer and use the team that lost 5-2 at Sheffield United mid season and had some injuries

——————Muric
Vitinho THB Beyer Maatsen
—————Cork Cullen
Benson——Bastien—Zaroury
——————-Tella

Which team wins? The one that should have got a point at Anfield or the one that got dicked 5-2 at Sheffield?

Would in not be fairer to judge based on the entirety of last season rather than just cherry picking our worst performance in a great season?

[claretspice]

Muric
Roberts THB Beyer Maatsen
Cullen Cork
Benson Brownhill Zaroury
Barnes


Trafford
Assignon O'Shea Esteve Delcroix
Berge Brownhill
Ramsey Amdouni Odabert
Fofana

Which team wins the game? How have we managed to get so much worse??

This season's team wins. For the same reason that, contrary to folk myth, McNeil would have walked into our team last season. Generally the players are better.

There are though two huge misses. Firstly Maatsen, and secondly Tella. Both added a physical, athletic edge that we have not replaced at full back or further forwards.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Seems a bit of a fairer comparison given yesterday we played one of the best teams in the world while last season we played a team we’ve beat 5-0 this season. Interesting debating point imo.

Why don’t you make it a fairer comparison and use the team that beat a premier league team last season?

Peacock Farrell
Roberts, Beyer, THB, Roberts
Cullen, Brownhill, JBG
Benson, Barnes, Zaroury

Vs the team that beat Sheffield this season

Trafford
Vitinho, O’Shea, Beyer, Taylor
Berge, Brownhill,
Koleosho, Amdouni, Jay, Larsen


I know which team I would prefer straight away

[RVclaret]

Would in not be fairer to judge based on the entirety of last season rather than just cherry picking our worst performance in a great season?

Appreciate that view and it’s a good point albeit the counter is that here we are cherry picking an injury hit, confidence hit team that just got well beaten against one of the best teams in the world. It’s a difficult one cause we haven’t seen this team have 5 games in a row against poor teams who can barely string 5 passes together. If we had, views may be very different!

[RVclaret]

Why don’t you make it a fairer comparison and use the team that beat a premier league team last season?

No we can’t use that one cause Bournemouth didn’t care remember, they wanted to be knocked out of the cup.

(According to yourself)

[taio]

Muric
Roberts THB Beyer Maatsen
Cullen Cork
Benson Brownhill Zaroury
Barnes


Trafford
Assignon O'Shea Esteve Delcroix
Berge Brownhill
Ramsey Amdouni Odabert
Fofana

Which team wins the game? How have we managed to get so much worse??

It's a close call. I'd lean towards the former. But it's a moot point because we weren't able to keep some of the players from last season. The main point is our transfer strategy in the summer wasn't good enough.

[taio]

Appreciate that view and it’s a good point albeit the counter is that here we are cherry picking an injury hit, confidence hit team that just got well beaten against one of the best teams in the world. It’s a difficult one cause we haven’t seen this team have 5 games in a row against poor teams who can barely string 5 passes together. If we had, views may be very different!

I doubt many or any people are forming their judgements based on yesterday's game for the reason you say.

[getbennyon]

This season's team wins. For the same reason that, contrary to folk myth, McNeil would have walked into our team last season. Generally the players are better.

There are though two huge misses. Firstly Maatsen, and secondly Tella. Both added a physical, athletic edge that we have not replaced at full back or further forwards.

You don't believe this season's team wins.

You're a contrarian who uses long words and long paragraphs to try to convince otherwise.

[Newcastleclaret93]

No we can’t use that one cause Bournemouth didn’t care remember, they wanted to be knocked out of the cup.

(According to yourself)

Pick the United game them. Pointless comparing against championship teams

[RVclaret]

Pick the United game them. Pointless comparing against championship teams

We lost 2-0 and you said United never left 1st gear

[Newcastleclaret93]

This season's team wins. For the same reason that, contrary to folk myth, McNeil would have walked into our team last season. Generally the players are better.

There are though two huge misses. Firstly Maatsen, and secondly Tella. Both added a physical, athletic edge that we have not replaced at full back or further forwards.

That’s the issue there is zero evidence at all that this crop are better.

With McNeil we had three seasons of evidence. None of this lot have even remotely looked premier league quality

[Newcastleclaret93]

We lost 2-0 and you said United never left 1st gear

Arsenal literally didn’t even have a gear yesterday.

Genuinely did you even watch us?

[Boss Hogg]

The first team gets us more points this season. It would also show more fight and togetherness. It still needs a different manager though. VK has lost what he had last season and I suspect loyalty from the many of last seasons players who have been frozen out from the off and player buy in to his methods.

[TheFamilyCat]

Muric
Roberts THB Beyer Maatsen
Cullen Cork
Benson Brownhill Zaroury
Barnes


Trafford
Assignon O'Shea Esteve Delcroix
Berge Brownhill
Ramsey Amdouni Odabert
Fofana

Which team wins the game? How have we managed to get so much worse??

At least you're back to your usual MO after your disgusting post about Ramsey last night.

Interesting that you picked last year's strongest XI but failed to include injured players from this season who have been first choice.

[RVclaret]

Arsenal literally didn’t even have a gear yesterday.

Genuinely did you even watch us?

You can’t do anything if you aren’t in a gear. I suggest you go and try drive a car.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You can’t do anything if you aren’t in a gear. I suggest you go and try drive a car.

They didn’t even need to drive to beat us. We were going backwards

[Westleigh]

Can you imagine this team making the comebacks we made last season,especially the Sunderland away match,we’ve shown fighting spirit against Fulham and Liverpool this season and that’s about it.

[Colburn_Claret]

I really, really don’t think VK should pick players on the basis

a) fans don’t have a stick to beat him with
b) so players can say they’ve had a chance

I think he needs to pick the best players for each game without considering fans opinions or doing players any favours.

Although I think there is a balance now in terms of focussing on the development of players who will be with us next year.

I can see that, so why doesn't Muric get a look in.

Like many of our squad, Trafford is a great talent, but he isn't ready for this league. Young talent needs to be eased into a team, not chucked in at the deep end. They require experience around them, or in Traffords case in front of him.

We chucked the baby out with the bathwater this season, and it's too late to put it right. I'm not for potting VK, he is still our best hope, but only if he learns from this season's mistakes. If we do bounce back we really don't want to be in this avoidable situation in 2 years time.

[ClaretPete001]

I think there is an argument to suggest that this seasons players are more suited to the PL in that the likes of Kolosheo and Odebert have the pace and power to compete in the PL whereas I'm not sure Benson or Zaroury have.

Similarly, O' Shea looks to have the physical attributes to be a PL player whereas I'm not sure it's so obvious with THB or Beyer.

But Maatsen and Tella are now looking quality in the Bundesliga. The Cork, Cullen and Brownhill midfield trio really dominated teams.

I think last seasons pre-Christmas team with Jay Rod playing a deep number 10, Tella and Zaroury out wide and Maatsen over lapping on the Left would have run this team ragged.

I just don't see how Odobert or Ramsey would cope with the like of Tella, Maatsen and Zaroury running at them.

I do think that last seasons team could have lost 5-0 against Arsenal as they lost 6-0 to City and ultimately the problem is trying to compete like for like against much better players is a folly.

So, I think last seasons team would have made a better fist in the PL but ultimately with VK in charge would have got relegated because we are too naive and too open and don't have enough money to buy the quality of players required to play like we are....!

[Goalposts]

I looked back at last season on all the games i recorded and highlights for the championship. A few things that people seem to have forgotten in my opinion.

Muric made a lot of mistakes and gifted a goal a game, or an absolute goal scoring chance a game with some bad positional play and pass choices. The difference is in the championship we could compensate by scoring 2-3 goals a game. We cant do that in the prem…

At about 18 games in it gelled for the team and they started clicking consistently.. the side settled and we went on a long run only losing a couple of games the remainder of the season..

That was never going to be the case this year , and the learning curve is steeper than ever in the prem if your philosophy is open attacking play. The Luton/ dyche style may keep you up.. and works for a few years then becomes somewhat dull for fans. (Though we may welcome a couple of years dullness at this point)…

The player step up required is massive.. Cullen last year was championship player of the year , bossed every game, same with brownhill, but in the premier league they struggle. To good for the championship - not good enough for the prem. berge looks the only real prem player .

I do wonder about THB and Tella, i think we would have been stronger , but based on the model we have now we were not going to outlay that money.

It’s been pretty obvious since November we are down, the only real challenge is will we even break 20 pts.. the bigger question is what is the team for the championship, which players are going and which players can match the physicality and relentless run of games…. Thats were the managements heads need to be..

[CoolClaret]

I looked back at last season on all the games i recorded and highlights for the championship. A few things that people seem to have forgotten in my opinion.

Muric made a lot of mistakes and gifted a goal a game, or an absolute goal scoring chance a game with some bad positional play and pass choices. The difference is in the championship we could compensate by scoring 2-3 goals a game. We cant do that in the prem…

At about 18 games in it gelled for the team and they started clicking consistently.. the side settled and we went on a long run only losing a couple of games the remainder of the season..

That was never going to be the case this year , and the learning curve is steeper than ever in the prem if your philosophy is open attacking play. The Luton/ dyche style may keep you up.. and works for a few years then becomes somewhat dull for fans. (Though we may welcome a couple of years dullness at this point)…

The player step up required is massive.. Cullen last year was championship player of the year , bossed every game, same with brownhill, but in the premier league they struggle. To good for the championship - not good enough for the prem. berge looks the only real prem player .

I do wonder about THB and Tella, i think we would have been stronger , but based on the model we have now we were not going to outlay that money.

It’s been pretty obvious since November we are down, the only real challenge is will we even break 20 pts.. the bigger question is what is the team for the championship, which players are going and which players can match the physicality and relentless run of games…. Thats were the managements heads need to be..

We conceded less than a goal a game in the Champ. So your opening premise is just blatantly false.

[Carlos the Great]

Get Tella in that team and it’s a no brainer

[Rick_Muller]

First time in Burnley’s premier league history we achieved an Xgot of Zero according to Xg philosopher

It wasn’t just a beating it was an embarrassment. We literally didn’t even threaten Arsenal.

It was one sided, granted, but we did have chances (I know as I was actually at the game) and had we gone in at half time only 1-0 down instead of VAR and the ref gifting a team (who had everything anyway) a free penalty it might not have knocked the stuffing out of them like it did.

[Goalposts]

We conceded less than a goal a game in the Champ. So your opening premise is just blatantly false.

Read it again, a goal a game or an absolute goal scoring chance - fact watch last season back

[ClaretPete001]

I looked back at last season on all the games i recorded and highlights for the championship. A few things that people seem to have forgotten in my opinion.

Muric made a lot of mistakes and gifted a goal a game, or an absolute goal scoring chance a game with some bad positional play and pass choices. The difference is in the championship we could compensate by scoring 2-3 goals a game. We cant do that in the prem…

At about 18 games in it gelled for the team and they started clicking consistently.. the side settled and we went on a long run only losing a couple of games the remainder of the season..

That was never going to be the case this year , and the learning curve is steeper than ever in the prem if your philosophy is open attacking play. The Luton/ dyche style may keep you up.. and works for a few years then becomes somewhat dull for fans. (Though we may welcome a couple of years dullness at this point)…

The player step up required is massive.. Cullen last year was championship player of the year , bossed every game, same with brownhill, but in the premier league they struggle. To good for the championship - not good enough for the prem. berge looks the only real prem player .

I do wonder about THB and Tella, i think we would have been stronger , but based on the model we have now we were not going to outlay that money.

It’s been pretty obvious since November we are down, the only real challenge is will we even break 20 pts.. the bigger question is what is the team for the championship, which players are going and which players can match the physicality and relentless run of games…. Thats were the managements heads need to be..

To be fair, Cullen suffered because VK started with a high pressing 4-3-3. I thought he played well against Spurs away given the chance. Berge looked sh*te in those games and was heavily criticised on here.

Brownhill is a PL squad player but he is the kind of player we can afford and you have to find a way to use them... Playing in a 4-4-2 alongside a teenager and a 21 year old is a bit unfair.

[CoolClaret]

Read it again, a goal a game or an absolute goal scoring chance - fact watch last season back

We had the best defence in the Championship and played an extremely high line. A lot less protection for the goalkeeper and a lot more sweeping up required.

Not many could do what Muric did in that role last season, can't be underestimated.

[ClaretPete001]

It was one sided, granted, but we did have chances (I know as I was actually at the game) and had we gone in at half time only 1-0 down instead of VAR and the ref gifting a team (who had everything anyway) a free penalty it might not have knocked the stuffing out of them like it did.

I think you'd have to have smoked an awful lot of wacky backy to believe that...!

They completely outclassed us in every department.

[Darthlaw]

Muric
Roberts THB Beyer Maatsen
Cullen Cork
Benson Brownhill Zaroury
Barnes


Trafford
Assignon O'Shea Esteve Delcroix
Berge Brownhill
Ramsey Amdouni Odabert
Fofana

Which team wins the game? How have we managed to get so much worse??

Seeing Maatsen defend in the PL fills me with as much fear as actually seeing Roberts do it this year. The Jury is out on Beyer being good enough for the PL and I think it's shown that Cullen and Zaroury in his cameo's hasn't exactly looked the part.

On to the two teams competing against each other - It's the ability to bully Trafford vs Muric's potential for gifting the opposition a goal. I'd probably prefer Muric although its akin to asking if I want to be punched in the left or right side of my face.

Neither team can defend (last seasons didnt need to, they were that good at keeping possession against Championship opposition). I'd have Berge and Brownhill anyday against Cullen and Cork.

I'm more inclined to compare JBG, Amdouni and Odobert against Benson, Brownhill and Zaroury at which point JBG, Amdouni and Odobert are streets ahead.

Barnes v Fofana is a tough one. I think Fofana is likely to score more vs Muric but Barnes is gonna toy with Trafford all game long.

I don't think its too huge a gap in quality (hence why we're struggling in the PL) but this seasons team still edges it for me.

[Rick_Muller]

I think you'd have to have smoked an awful lot of wacky backy to believe that...!

They completely outclassed us in every department.

Explain to me where I contradict that? I stated it was one sided. Were you at the game, or are you one of the illegal streaming keyboard warriors?

[Rick_Muller]

Seeing Maatsen defend in the PL fills me with as much fear as actually seeing Roberts do it this year. The Jury is out on Beyer being good enough for the PL and I think it's shown that Cullen and Zaroury in his cameo's hasn't exactly looked the part.

On to the two teams competing against each other - It's the ability to bully Trafford vs Muric's potential for gifting the opposition a goal. I'd probably prefer Muric although its akin to asking if I want to be punched in the left or right side of my face.

Neither team can defend (last seasons didnt need to, they were that good at keeping possession against Championship opposition). I'd have Berge and Brownhill anyday against Cullen and Cork.

I'm more inclined to compare JBG, Amdouni and Odobert against Benson, Brownhill and Zaroury at which point JBG, Amdouni and Odobert are streets ahead.

Barnes v Fofana is a tough one. I think Fofana is likely to score more vs Muric but Barnes is gonna toy with Trafford all game long.

I don't think its too huge a gap in quality (hence why we're struggling in the PL) but this seasons team still edges it for me.

Fair assessment that