Defensive Coaching

[Rowls]

It has become apparent that we basically got away with not being able to defend last season because we could hold the ball and outgun teams.

But whoever is our defensive coach is stealing a living.

I haven't seen consistent disorganisation and a lack of cohesion like this since Stan had to sort out the mess left behind by Waddle and Roeder. Our inability to mark players, be organised and defend as a unit is only compounded by us trying to play as if we're Barcelona.

If we've got a defensive coach then they want sacking. If Vincent isn't going to fix the situation then his position needs to be firmly under review.

[daveisaclaret]

We play a different back 4 every week. I think coaching that into a cohesive defence is an almost impossible task.

[ksrclaret]

You only have to look at the defensive 'line' that we hold during a game to understand how poor the coaching is at our club.

[Goliath]

It has become apparent that we basically got away with not being able to defend last season because we could hold the ball and outgun teams.

But whoever is our defensive coach is stealing a living.

I haven't seen consistent disorganisation and a lack of cohesion like this since Stan had to sort out the mess left behind by Waddle and Roeder. Our inability to mark players, be organised and defend as a unit is only compounded by us trying to play as if we're Barcelona.

If we've got a defensive coach then they want sacking. If Vincent isn't going to fix the situation then his position needs to be firmly under review.

Mike Jackson works with the defence doesnt he?

[Roosterbooster]

We play a different back 4 every week. I think coaching that into a cohesive defence is an almost impossible task.

Doesn't matter if you've got 4 strikers at the back. Some of our errors have been so basic, they wouldn't have been out of place in a pub league. Some really are as simple as marking your man, getting goal-side, tracking, tackling with the correct foot, not diving in, getting rid under pressure, watching for the spare man at the back post, anticipating the cut back...

[Rowls]

You only have to look at the defensive 'line' that we hold during a game to understand how poor the coaching is at our club.

It's non-existent.

Basic stuff like keeping a flat line. Not been apparent since Dyche left.

Following runners down the line - no apparent organisation here or system that players appear to be following.

Picking up runners from midfield/deep - non existent

Marking from set pieces - we are probably the worst in the league for this

Awareness of danger - players are constantly robbed of the ball in dangerous positions

We are one of the worst defensive teams ever to have graced the Premier League. It's been physically painful to watch it.

We are also wrecking the confidence and development of our (very, very expensive) players. When you put talented young players into positions where they are getting thumped for 3 or 4 goals every single game you are actively responsible for wrecking their development. Nobody in our team is able to build up confidence or given the time and space to develop: Everybody is too busy fire fighting and dealing with results of our shambolic and disgraceful disorganisation.

[Rowls]

Mike Jackson works with the defence doesnt he?

He might be the man with a title like "defensive coach" but nothing to do with our defensive coaching can be honestly or accurately described as "work".

Our defensive coaching team are stealing a living.

All of them.

[Stayingup]

We play a different back 4 every week. I think coaching that into a cohesive defence is an almost impossible task.

Yes that's very true and two new players from France coming into a new league a new team - and a poor one - hasn't helped.

[Goliath]

He might be the man with a title like "defensive coach" but nothing to do with our defensive coaching can be honestly or accurately described as "work".

Our defensive coaching team are stealing a living.

All of them.

How do you know? Have you actually seen them coach?

[ksrclaret]

It's non-existent.

Basic stuff like keeping a flat line. Not been apparent since Dyche left.

Following runners down the line - no apparent organisation here or system that players appear to be following.

Picking up runners from midfield/deep - non existent

Marking from set pieces - we are probably the worst in the league for this

Awareness of danger - players are constantly robbed of the ball in dangerous positions

We are one of the worst defensive teams ever to have graced the Premier League. It's been physically painful to watch it.

We are also wrecking the confidence and development of our (very, very expensive) players. When you put talented young players into positions where they are getting thumped for 3 or 4 goals every single game you are actively responsible for wrecking their development. Nobody in our team is able to build up confidence or given the time and space to develop: Everybody is too busy fire fighting and dealing with results of our shambolic and disgraceful disorganisation.

Agree with your summary entirely.

We're getting worse as well.

[whiffa]

Being able to defend is irrelevant at this stage. It's mistakes that are costing us. Not organisation or strategy.

[Rowls]

How do you know? Have you actually seen them coach?

You don't need to know what somebody has eaten to know that their turds are brown.

You don't have to watch us train to know that we are disgracefully disorganised and weak defensively.

You have to be blind or wilfully ignorant to not be able to see this.

[Rowls]

Being able to defend is irrelevant at this stage. It's mistakes that are costing us. Not organisation or strategy.

We've conceded one goal today because we insist on playing tactics suitable for Barcelona.

The other two have been scored by completely unmarked men.

OK< maybe we were spoiled under Dyche for 11 years and got used to seeing a team that were organised and knew what they were doing but this season has shown us to be one of the very worst defensive teams to have ever played in the Premier League.

The few times I've had the stomach to watch MotD it's been pointed out on there. If the dingbats of MotD can see it then a blind man galloping on a horse can see it.

[whiffa]

We've conceded one goal today because we insist on playing tactics suitable for Barcelona.

The other two have been scored by completely unmarked men.

OK< maybe we were spoiled under Dyche for 11 years and got used to seeing a team that were organised and knew what they were doing but this season has shown us to be one of the very worst defensive teams to have ever played in the Premier League.

The few times I've had the stomach to watch MotD it's been pointed out on there. If the dingbats of MotD can see it then a blind man galloping on a horse can see it.

I'm not disagreeing that our defending is poor. But we could have the most organised defence in the league and still concede if we have men sent off or mistakes from the goalkeeper or defenders.

[oswyclaret]

Defensive coaching...he was a centre half himself, was he not!

Does he not pass on his wealth of knowledge to those around him!

If he does, it certainly isn't working!!

[Buxtonclaret]

I'm not disagreeing that our defending is poor. But we could have the most organised defence in the league and still concede if we have men sent off or mistakes from the goalkeeper or defenders.

Sadly, the mistakes have been our only real consistency this season.
We seem rudderless off the pitch and leaderless on it.

[Rowls]

I'm not disagreeing that our defending is poor. But we could have the most organised defence in the league and still concede if we have men sent off or mistakes from the goalkeeper or defenders.

We won't know for sure unless we get organised.

We had some very stingey defences under Dyche and they were assembled with a fraction of the cost of this one. In short they were almost infinitely better.

OK, so it didn't stop us conceding a hatfuls of screamers and world-classs goals against the likes of Citeh but this team is conceding hatfuls of tap-ins and the most basic or basic goals.

If Chris Brass or Jason Hardy or Peter Leebrook or Lee Roche or Richard Eckersley had been marking either of the players who scored the two tap-ins today there's a chance they could have put them off and nudged it away for a corner. Maybe not a great chance, but a chance nontheless. But with nobody picking them up the chance is zero.

[Rowls]

Sadly, the mistakes have been our only real consistency this season.
We seem rudderless off the pitch and leaderless on it.

That's unfair. We've achieved near-perfect consistency in being disorganised and shambolic in defence.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Whoever is doing it needs to ask Jesse for his manual

[Buxtonclaret]

That's unfair. We've achieved near-perfect consistency in being disorganised and shambolic in defence.

Yep.
Sorry Rowls.
I'm still in shock after watching that.
My excuse, any way.

[Rowls]

Yep.
Sorry Rowls.
I'm still in shock after watching that.
My excuse, any way.

We're all feeling the pain of having to try and digest this week after week.

[Goliath]

You don't need to know what somebody has eaten to know that their turds are brown.

You don't have to watch us train to know that we are disgracefully disorganised and weak defensively.

You have to be blind or wilfully ignorant to not be able to see this.

So youve literally never seen thrm coach but have decided they are terrible at coaching?
Thry might be, i dont know but its definitely not something we can state as a fact. From everything we have heard since this management team came in, i think the coaching side is probably one of the strengths.

[Rowls]

So youve literally never seen thrm coach but have decided they are terrible at coaching?
Thry might be, i dont know but its definitely not something we can state as a fact. From everything we have heard since this management team came in, i think the coaching side is probably one of the strengths.

Hi Goliath,

We can all see the result whatever coaching they're receiving. It's abysmal and woefully disorganised. It's a shocking mess.

I never saw Sean Dyche coach either but I knew his teams were expertly drilled, especially when it came to defensive coaching. You can intuit, comprehend and infer from watching the results of our defending on the pitch to understand if the coaching is working or not.

This isn't a particularly difficult concept to understand. You don't have to observe something first hand if you know what job it's doing.

How else can this be explained to you? Here's another example: You've probably never seen our own heart (unless you've had open surgery and watched it back on video) but you know you have a heart and you know it's there doing its job because you're still alive.

You know your heart is there and still working not because you can observe it directly but because you can be aware of it in other ways: You can feel your pulse. You are conscious. You are not dead. You know what a heart is because of learning very basic anatomy in school and through common knowledge. And yet you've never once seen it in your entire life and you most likely never will.

It's like that with our defensive coaching. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see how disorganised we are simply by watching our games. We don't have to witness the training sessions first hand because the evidence is on display on matchdays.

I've endured 25 league games this season* where it is obvious that we aren't well enough organised at the back. We haven't played well defensively once this season in the league.

* Sheffield United simply didn't threaten us. Even in our rare wins, we have to ride our luck, rely on Trafford and hope the opposition fluff their chances, like for example, Fulham away.

[helmclaret]

Defending starts from the front and we have no desire to press up there and the midfield is none existent.

[Rowls]

Defending starts from the front and we have no desire to press up there and the midfield is none existent.

This still comes under the category of "defensive coaching".

[Goliath]

Hi Goliath,

We can all see the result whatever coaching they're receiving. It's abysmal and woefully disorganised. It's a shocking mess.

I never saw Sean Dyche coach either but I knew his teams were expertly drilled, especially when it came to defensive coaching. You can intuit, comprehend and infer from watching the results of our defending on the pitch to understand if the coaching is working or not.

This isn't a particularly difficult concept to understand. You don't have to observe something first hand if you know what job it's doing.

How else can this be explained to you? Here's another example: You've probably never seen our own heart (unless you've had open surgery and watched it back on video) but you know you have a heart and you know it's there doing its job because you're still alive.

You know your heart is there and still working not because you can observe it directly but because you can be aware of it in other ways: You can feel your pulse. You are conscious. You are not dead. You know what a heart is because of learning very basic anatomy in school and through common knowledge. And yet you've never once seen it in your entire life and you most likely never will.

It's like that with our defensive coaching. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see how disorganised we are simply by watching our games. We don't have to witness the training sessions first hand because the evidence is on display on matchdays.

I've endured 25 league games this season* where it is obvious that we aren't well enough organised at the back. We haven't played well defensively once this season in the league.

* Sheffield United simply didn't threaten us. Even in our rare wins, we have to ride our luck, rely on Trafford and hope the opposition fluff their chances, like for example, Fulham away.

Well this is incredibly patronising. Sean Dyche is very good at what he does. Kompany is trying (or was) to coach a much more complex system which is a lot harder to implement and it hasnt worked probably because of the standard of player we have.
Theres a lot more goes into building a strong team than being a good coach. Its such an overly simplistic view of things that its almost laughable.

Do you think if Pep was given this group of players then theyd suddenly be solid?

[Rowls]

Well this is incredibly patronising. Sean Dyche is very good at what he does. Kompany is trying (or was) to coach a much more complex system which is a lot harder to implement and it hasnt worked probably because of the standard of player we have.
Theres a lot more goes into building a strong team than being a good coach. Its such an overly simplistic view of things that its almost laughable.

Do you think if Pep was given this group of players then theyd suddenly be solid?

It was deliberately patronising because your point was so obtuse and you insisted on making it twice.

I've never claimed that being a football manager or coach is easy. I'm only saying that defensively, we are as bad as I've seen in the Premier League. We are abysmal and there's no two ways about. Nothing about this is "overly simplistic". Sadly, it's true.

To answer your question, I think there are many coaches out there who could improve our squad defensively and I think a good defensive coach could do so in a short amount of time because we aren't even doing the basic things right.

[helmclaret]

The players aren’t good enough. As stated above Pep wouldn’t be able to get a tune out of them.

[StayingDown4Ever]

More alarmingly, maybe the coaches are telling them all the right things and the players are just that bad.

[Rileybobs]

I suppose we don’t know how good our coaches are, but they’re obviously not good enough to coach these players to play at this level. Whether this is a poorer reflection of the players or the coaches remains to be seen.

I’ve mentioned it a couple of times and don’t want to pick on a young lad - but Odobert’s work off the ball today was a disgrace. Either our coaches are watching this and think it’s acceptable, or he is briefed not to track a man or put any effort in off the ball. This is where our problems start.

Odobert doesn’t follow the opposition full back, Taylor gets doubled up on which 1.) allows the opposition a free cross, all the time in the world to put an accurate cross into the box completely unchallenged, and 2.) means that one of our centre backs makes a move out wide in an effort to support Taylor which in turn leaves Assignon doubled up on at the back post. I’ve never worked in football, but I can see this so what the hell are those earning a living doing?

Obviously a sending off compounds issues in open play, but there were numerous set pieces where Assignon had 2 or 3 men up against him and we had 3 or 4 defenders marking 1 player. Its rank bad.

[CoolClaret]

What's one of the reasons as to why we could keep the ball so well and not have to defend as much last season?

[taio]

What's one of the reasons as to why we could keep the ball so well and not have to defend as much last season?

The standard of the opposition last season is starkly different to this season. That's the mean reason.

[CoolClaret]

The standard of the opposition last season is starkly different to this season. That's the mean reason.

Well I never.

[taio]

Well I never.

Do you disagree?

[Goliath]

I suppose we don’t know how good our coaches are, but they’re obviously not good enough to coach these players to play at this level. Whether this is a poorer reflection of the players or the coaches remains to be seen.

I’ve mentioned it a couple of times and don’t want to pick on a young lad - but Odobert’s work off the ball today was a disgrace. Either our coaches are watching this and think it’s acceptable, or he is briefed not to track a man or put any effort in off the ball. This is where our problems start.

Odobert doesn’t follow the opposition full back, Taylor gets doubled up on which 1.) allows the opposition a free cross, all the time in the world to put an accurate cross into the box completely unchallenged, and 2.) means that one of our centre backs makes a move out wide in an effort to support Taylor which in turn leaves Assignon doubled up on at the back post. I’ve never worked in football, but I can see this so what the hell are those earning a living doing?

Obviously a sending off compounds issues in open play, but there were numerous set pieces where Assignon had 2 or 3 men up against him and we had 3 or 4 defenders marking 1 player. Its rank bad.

I think thats an individual issue rather than coaching. Theres too much said about how good the coaching is for that to be the issue. Belgium, Spurs were sniffing a while back too, if the coaching was crap word would have got round.
He has a fantastic reputation and we need to remember that, if we can get through this season without turning on him we may well reap the benefits later down the line

[ksrclaret]

Getting a back four to hold a straight line when the opposition have the ball is the most basic defensive tactic in the book. We don't and this is because the coaches are either unable to coach it, or don't want it to happen.

Getting a back four to hold each other and the players in front of them accountable for the shape of the team is another basic. How often did Tarkowski and Mee shout and even physically place a player into the correct position? This isn't happening and it's because the culture at the club is one of laziness and sloppiness.

The coaching at the club is abysmal.

[Rowls]

The players aren’t good enough. As stated above Pep wouldn’t be able to get a tune out of them.

It wasn't stated; it was a question posed and it's purely hypothetical and we cannot be sure on this.

Are the players good enough? Well the jury is well and truly out on that.

Results say they're not good enough. In which case, we've overpaid for the lot of them.

But I think it would be much fairer to judge the players abilities if we could see that they were properly organised.

Anyone remember Michael Duff's last regular starting performance against Hull? It was sad. He'd been such an amazing servant but he got too old and his legs finally gave up on him. He wasn't good enough anymore. He got dropped and we went on a 23 game unbeaten run. However, the defensive unit he was part of was superbly well drilled, organised and well marshalled. I don't see that parallel here.

I see players who may (or may not) be good enough but more than that I see them running around without any discernible coaching, tactics, positional training or any discipline. These are the marks of good coaching and they are entirely lacking in our defensive play.

[Rileybobs]

It wasn't stated; it was a question posed and it's purely hypothetical and we cannot be sure on this.

Are the players good enough? Well the jury is well and truly out on that.

Results say they're not good enough. In which case, we've overpaid for the lot of them.

But I think it would be much fairer to judge the players abilities if we could see that they were properly organised.

Anyone remember Michael Duff's last regular starting performance against Hull? It was sad. He'd been such an amazing servant but he got too old and his legs finally gave up on him. He wasn't good enough anymore. He got dropped and we went on a 23 game unbeaten run. However, the defensive unit he was part of was superbly well drilled, organised and well marshalled. I don't see that parallel here.

I see players who may (or may not) be good enough but more than that I see them running around without any discernible coaching, tactics, positional training or any discipline. These are the marks of good coaching and they are entirely lacking in our defensive play.

I think one of the problems is asking a bunch of blokes who’ve just met each other to play in a complicated system. VK himself admitted it has always taken his teams 100 sessions to get to grips with his systems, so why did he then throw away all of the work done to get to that point and dismantle a well drilled side.

[Rowls]

I think one of the problems is asking a bunch of blokes who’ve just met each other to play in a complicated system. VK himself admitted it has always taken his teams 100 sessions to get to grips with his systems, so why did he then throw away all of the work done to get to that point and dismantle a well drilled side.

That could be a factor. It's certainly a complex way to play football. Even last season when teams couldn't get close to us it was exceptionally complicated.

It worked 90% of the time last season but this season hasn't come close once*. We're not only failing to to win games, we're getting stuffed week in, week out and we aren't competing.

Most worrying for me is that we're trashing the young talent we've paid so handsomely for because we are wrecking their confidence.

[Goliath]

I think one of the problems is asking a bunch of blokes who’ve just met each other to play in a complicated system. VK himself admitted it has always taken his teams 100 sessions to get to grips with his systems, so why did he then throw away all of the work done to get to that point and dismantle a well drilled side.

Naivety. I think his interviews before the season were telling, he couldnt get himself to say the aim of the season was to avoid relegation. He was aiming higher and thought he could do it in one window. He's been proved very wrong on that one.

[Bfc]

The most basic of a players skill, should be the ability to pass a ball accurately to another player, stood 10 yards away, when not even under pressure. Not put the ball behind a teammate whose unmarked, or worse still, pass it to an opponent.
The number of times we’ve made that mistake, shows a lack of skill and cost us conceded goals. The defensive coach should be all over them in training for doing that.

[helmclaret]

It wasn't stated; it was a question posed and it's purely hypothetical and we cannot be sure on this.

Are the players good enough? Well the jury is well and truly out on that.

Results say they're not good enough. In which case, we've overpaid for the lot of them.

But I think it would be much fairer to judge the players abilities if we could see that they were properly organised.

Anyone remember Michael Duff's last regular starting performance against Hull? It was sad. He'd been such an amazing servant but he got too old and his legs finally gave up on him. He wasn't good enough anymore. He got dropped and we went on a 23 game unbeaten run. However, the defensive unit he was part of was superbly well drilled, organised and well marshalled. I don't see that parallel here.

I see players who may (or may not) be good enough but more than that I see them running around without any discernible coaching, tactics, positional training or any discipline. These are the marks of good coaching and they are entirely lacking in our defensive play.

The jury is out? The players are clearly not good enough, yet, for this level.

Have you ever seen a weaker back 4 in a PL team?

[123EasyasBFC]

I suppose we don’t know how good our coaches are, but they’re obviously not good enough to coach these players to play at this level. Whether this is a poorer reflection of the players or the coaches remains to be seen.

I’ve mentioned it a couple of times and don’t want to pick on a young lad - but Odobert’s work off the ball today was a disgrace. Either our coaches are watching this and think it’s acceptable, or he is briefed not to track a man or put any effort in off the ball. This is where our problems start.

Odobert doesn’t follow the opposition full back, Taylor gets doubled up on which 1.) allows the opposition a free cross, all the time in the world to put an accurate cross into the box completely unchallenged, and 2.) means that one of our centre backs makes a move out wide in an effort to support Taylor which in turn leaves Assignon doubled up on at the back post. I’ve never worked in football, but I can see this so what the hell are those earning a living doing?

Obviously a sending off compounds issues in open play, but there were numerous set pieces where Assignon had 2 or 3 men up against him and we had 3 or 4 defenders marking 1 player. Its rank bad.

I have noticed with Odobert, he always seems better defensively when he’s on the same side as kompany, and I’m stretching really by saying better.

I was one who thought the main reason benson wasn’t being used was because of his defensive work but he would be no worse than what is on current show at the moment and if we put an extra body in the middle instead of amdouni we can afford to have 2 actual attack minded wingers

[boatshed bill]

en't competing.

Most worrying for me is that we're trashing the young talent we've paid so handsomely for because we are wrecking their confidence.

Agreed.
One can only hope that it makes rather than breaks them.

[bfcjg]

When it comes to our defence the phrase " you can't polish a turd " springs to mind.

[Blyclaret]

Is he gone yet