ALK’s Strategy: Are We Witnessing A Failing Experiment?

[Orangebernard]

Firstly, apologies for the long post, but I wonder if the current on-field situation is entirely due to ALK’s goal which is primarily to make a huge amount of money for a small handful of individuals which I believe cannot succeed at a club like Burnley. Are we witnessing a failing experiment?

Whilst I have nothing against Alan Pace and his colleagues, nor the smaller investors like JJ and Kealia Watt, whether we like it or not our club is being used as a means to make money for a small group of people. Personally, I believe that the primary goal of any football club should be to win football matches and not to make money. Clubs should not be losing money but surely the primary goal is to achieve on-field success but I think what we are seeing is the need to be financially successful dictating recruitment, team selections and ultimately results on the pitch. As someone who follows the MMT thread, the ALK/Elkasashy thread and is a regular listener of The Price of Football podcast I think I have a grasp of what ALK are trying to achieve but I believe that it’s not actually possible to achieve it at a club the size of Burnley as we will never have huge global support nor be able to attract players of such a quality on a regular basis that will demand huge transfer fees when sold. I’ll nail my colours to the mast and state that I was and still am against the leveraged buyout that enabled ALK to purchase their majority shareholding as immediately they have very little financial risk but an awful lot of return to gain if they get it right and this is driving decision making throughout the club.

As far as I understand it the model is to use player trading, match day income and TV income to provide the day-to-day operational costs and funding for the recruitment of better players in a continuing upward spiral until a point where due to increasing TV rights income the value of the club has increased significantly and ALK sell up and walk away with a huge profit on their initial tiny investment of around $15m. The smaller shareholders will also see a return on their initial investment at this point. In the meantime, the club bear all the risk of having to service debts, continue trading without the money that ALK have taken out of the club to fund their share purchases all whilst trying to win football matches in the toughest league in the world. I may have that strategy incorrect so let me know if it’s it is something different. Was Kompany employed not only for his past playing and managerial experience but also because he too believes that this strategy, in theory, can work and coupled with his own company, MUD Analytics, believes that he can prove that analytics and player trading can be successful? I understand the criticism of Kompany and lets face it this season is proving to be absolutely appalling on the pitch but are we witnessing something akin to a gambler continuing to chase losses in the forlorn hope that they will eventually win it all back? Have ALK and VK pushed their strategy too far and now have no choice but to continue? Surely, from a footballing perspective VK can see the problems on the pitch but are team selections being driven entirely by financial pressures from ALK and the need to prove that his own analytics company can be successful? There is no doubt that ALK’s primary driver is to make money for themselves but are we also hostage to VK’s analytics company driving recruitment and team selections?

As a fan of 55 years who is disillusioned and is genuinely distressed at what is happening on the field I’m very, very concerned about where our club is heading and I believe that we are witnessing and experiencing a failing experiment. Thanks for listening.

[Colburn_Claret]

It's not only the right way to go, it's the only way to go, especially for a club our size.
The problem wasn't what we bought, but what we failed to buy. A leader on the pitch for a start, and a solid defensive midfielder.
We are a side of many good players, but a really poor team. It's fine margins but a couple of solid players, and luck, and this season could have been so different.

[Orangebernard]

I agree, in theory a club of our size cannot compete without player trading being the main source of income (TV money is entirely dependent on which division we are in) but what i may have failed to get across is that i don't think that ALK are the right people to make it work. They are not football people they are Wall St people. That coupled with VK's vested interest in having his own company showing itself to be successful is resulting in what we are seeing on the pitch. If we had football people in decision making positions would they have discarded last seasons team in such a manner or would they have enhanced it with a smaller number of quality players? In all honesty, I'm more inclined to lay the blame for this season at the feet of ALK than at VK's feet as ultimately they will make a profit if they sold up and walked away today,

[claptrappers_union]

Not every single player needs to be a young, upcoming superstar, and you shouldn't be sacrificing the club's place in the division to showcase them. You need need one of two in the matchday squad.

The way we did it before was perfectly fine. It's how football works. Bring through a youngster, tell them to be patient, and give them a few sub appearances, eventually, they get in the team, allow older experienced players to mentor them, and then sell them for a profit. The next player comes through before you've even noticed.

Like Americans do, they call it a strategy, market it as a ‘project’ and try to make money from it quicker.

[evensteadiereddie]

It's not only the right way to go, it's the only way to go, especially for a club our size.
The problem wasn't what we bought, but what we failed to buy. A leader on the pitch for a start, and a solid defensive midfielder.
We are a side of many good players, but a really poor team. It's fine margins but a couple of solid players, and luck, and this season could have been so different.

Absolutely spot on, Colburn.
Those two solid players, scrappers as I often refer to them, would make promotion so much easier next season.

[Orangebernard]

Correct, thats how it should be. Bring in new talent with potential to enhance the team and if they are successful sell them on and repeat. I cannot think of another reason other than the need to service debts and possibly pay some sort of return to the smaller investors in VSL why you would flood the team with inexperienced youngsters who are getting turned over week in week out and believe that was the right thing to do. This is the financial jeopardy that we find ourselves in and its not too big a leap to imagine this could all go horribly wrong very quickly. I really hope all concerned have learnt a lesson and will not repeat the same mistake in the next transfer window but the on-field evidence and team selections is such that i'm not too sure that will be the case.

[Westleigh]

Unfortunately whatever happens they can walk away without any sort of the debt ,and leave a club loaded with an enormous amount of debt ,and the biggest losers ( us fans) looking at a bleak future.

[rufus lumley]

The experiment is still on track with a small setback this season.

[JR1882]

It’s absolutely possible to make money - look at Brentford there’s talk of them going for 400m+ even if ALK get 200m for Burnley they have only put in 10-15m so they will walk away with a HUGE bag.

Sustain us in the prem with lucrative TV deals, build a squad of value and upgrade the infrastructure and we could go for 300+ in 5-10 years.

Any sale is profit as they haven’t actually put anything in.

[Darthlaw]

It’s absolutely possible to make money - look at Brentford there’s talk of them going for 400m+ even if ALK get 200m for Burnley they have only put in 10-15m so they will walk away with a HUGE bag.

Sustain us in the prem with lucrative TV deals, build a squad of value and upgrade the infrastructure and we could go for 300+ in 5-10 years.

Any sale is profit as they haven’t actually put anything in.

I remember suggesting the Brentford model was the way to go on here a few years back (when we were PL and they were championship) and almost getting laughed off the board.

[KRBFC]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the strategy, it’s just you have to find the balance. I’d be interested to know who VK wanted and who he was given, is he the fall guy? Was he really happy with the players we got?

Also I don’t understand fans who are saying Ramsey is a waste of money, I think he’ll develop and be a really good player for us. Whilst his value hasn’t increased since we bought him, his value doesn’t matter until we come to sell. Saying all that, I don’t think we needed him and could have spent it better elsewhere.

[Orangebernard]

It’s absolutely possible to make money - look at Brentford there’s talk of them going for 400m+ even if ALK get 200m for Burnley they have only put in 10-15m so they will walk away with a HUGE bag.

Sustain us in the prem with lucrative TV deals, build a squad of value and upgrade the infrastructure and we could go for 300+ in 5-10 years.

Any sale is profit as they haven’t actually put anything in.

You are correct ALK will make money, lots of money, but at what cost to those of us who remain? The league is littered with clubs that have been pushed close to extinction due to the major shareholders looking after their own interests at a cost to the club. It will be us the fans that are left to pick up the pieces and whilst you can argue that we have a more distinguished history than some other clubs that have almost ceased to exist because of mismanagement we are not that distinguished that there will be a queue of suitors waiting to step in. Its a situation we are now in with shareholders who's sole motivation is to make money and i don't doubt that ALK are sincere and genuine but it smacks currently of the need to continue in case it eventually comes good otherwise the model is failing and I think this is driving everything we are seeing on the pitch. The recruitment has clearly failed in footballing terms and now they are trying to head off potential losses by continuing to put the players they thought would be the ones to sell in the 'shop window'. Its a downward spiral for this season, lets hope they can recover it during the summer.

[Nonayforever]

We had it right about 4 or 5 seasons ago.
Everybody looked up to Burnley as a model club.
The players values were increasing and the clubs value was increasing due to the success on field.
It went pear shaped when Dyche wouldn't sell Tarks for a massive profit.
The way ALK are trying to do it now is very risky.
We need the basics - solid team then introduce youth and flair.
We have got rid of the basics.

[CrosspoolClarets]

The Analytical Kompany that is alluded to in the OP - I have no idea if this rumour is true or false but if true it would be national news really, something a broadsheet or TV media would latch onto and link to our performances. What amazes me then is as far as I know there hasn’t been a single question by any “independent” press at the weekly press conferences about it. As far as I can see the media are more asleep at the wheel than the team are. We’ve seen things with other clubs of course, e.g. players only coming from a single agent, but what I can’t recall is any instance of that kind of limitation working.

Anyway, back to the question, it is way too early to describe this as failing strategy. It is a bump in the road, but we have to see if the thing can be recovered next season. There have been a lot of poor, naive decisions that most experienced and clever fans warned against from day 1 last summer (experience, tactics, positions to prioritise). We all warned Cullen would be light in the PL, we all warned we needed a leader at CB, we all warned we needed new full backs, we all warned we couldn’t go with 2 in midfield. There is also a lot off the pitch (transparency, English culture not American culture so needing to be open and bring the fans with you to build that passion not just inviting them to the ground every 2 weeks as a paying customer). But at this point I’m hopeful that all those weaknesses will improve with experience, and VK does have a strong history now in the league below.

The real question is whether VK and maybe his analytical arm will cut it as a top manager - if ‘yes’ the strategy is on track even though we will now have to turnover some players again. If ‘no’ it could turn into a failing experiment. I still think ‘yes’. But these things take time.

[NewClaret]

Correct, thats how it should be. Bring in new talent with potential to enhance the team and if they are successful sell them on and repeat. I cannot think of another reason other than the need to service debts and possibly pay some sort of return to the smaller investors in VSL why you would flood the team with inexperienced youngsters who are getting turned over week in week out and believe that was the right thing to do. This is the financial jeopardy that we find ourselves in and its not too big a leap to imagine this could all go horribly wrong very quickly. I really hope all concerned have learnt a lesson and will not repeat the same mistake in the next transfer window but the on-field evidence and team selections is such that i'm not too sure that will be the case.

Will reply to your broader message more fully via a reply to Colburn, who I agree wholeheartedly with.

But on this point, I think it’s incredibly foolish to believe there’s a strategy to prioritise signing young, saleable players over staying in the Premier League.

You say these guys are from Wall St so they’ll get money, if not football, as you see it. And what is undoubtedly true is that you receive a lot more money for retaining Premier League status than you ever will selling players (bar a miracle signing). It would be completely stupid to develop a model of becoming a football player marketplace and yo-yo-ing between the Premier League and Championship both financially and from a risk perspective - two things Alan will understand very well and he’s certainly not stupid.

In summer, I think they completely misjudged:

1. The value of experience
2. The need for an onfield leader
3. The need for a commanding central defensive midfielder

Then by the time you get to January you’re out of it and completely unattractive to signings who could really improve you (or improve you enough to make a material difference this season), especially when you consider European leagues we’d be looking at are a fair way off the Premier League.

In mitigation I think most on here underestimated how big a step up this would be and thought the summer window was very good (I’ve posted links to twitter threads where fans were giving the window scores between 8-16/10!) so I kind of get why the club may also have been a tad complacent.

I also think we have been brutally unlucky: with the way the fixtures fell early doors not allowing us to carry over any of last year’s confidence and build momentum, a few VAR decisions and injuries. Thats no excuses, it’s just been a torrid season all round, but it doesn’t mean the strategy is not the right one or will not work.

[NewClaret]

It’s absolutely possible to make money - look at Brentford there’s talk of them going for 400m+ even if ALK get 200m for Burnley they have only put in 10-15m so they will walk away with a HUGE bag.

Sustain us in the prem with lucrative TV deals, build a squad of value and upgrade the infrastructure and we could go for 300+ in 5-10 years.

Any sale is profit as they haven’t actually put anything in.

That is not true.

The club was sold for £170m. £37m of club own funds were used + a £65m loan. So £70m+ has been paid in by someone unless additional debt has been taken on and nobody knows the current debt position.

We know that there are multiple investors. JJ, Jenkins, the guy whose name I can’t spell. So we know they will have put a lot in, but not how much.

And any sale of their shares will obviously not go in ALK’s pockets but theirs.

My point is there will be investors 100% wanting a strong return on their outlay.

[NewClaret]

Unfortunately whatever happens they can walk away without any sort of the debt ,and leave a club loaded with an enormous amount of debt ,and the biggest losers ( us fans) looking at a bleak future.

That’s basically a risk facing every single football club who has debt, which they all do to some extent, and no sugar daddy owners.

And even those who do (Stoke, Rovers) are hardly staring in to nirvana at the moment.

You’re just describing life as a football fan.

[Paul Waine]

You are correct ALK will make money, lots of money, but at what cost to those of us who remain? The league is littered with clubs that have been pushed close to extinction due to the major shareholders looking after their own interests at a cost to the club. It will be us the fans that are left to pick up the pieces and whilst you can argue that we have a more distinguished history than some other clubs that have almost ceased to exist because of mismanagement we are not that distinguished that there will be a queue of suitors waiting to step in. Its a situation we are now in with shareholders who's sole motivation is to make money and i don't doubt that ALK are sincere and genuine but it smacks currently of the need to continue in case it eventually comes good otherwise the model is failing and I think this is driving everything we are seeing on the pitch. The recruitment has clearly failed in footballing terms and now they are trying to head off potential losses by continuing to put the players they thought would be the ones to sell in the 'shop window'. Its a downward spiral for this season, lets hope they can recover it during the summer.

Hi Orangebernard, welcome to the board. I started going on t'Turf in 1967, so I guess maybe 1 or 2 seasons before you. I hope you, like me, enjoyed the 5-1 victory of Leeds in the season Leeds won the league. I guess you, like me, remember the sales of Ralph Coates, Martin Dobson, Dave Thomas, to mention just a few. Sales that the club had to make to be able to pay the rest of the team - and pay for the "Martin Dobson" (aka Bob Lord) stand.

What I'm saying is that it has always be thus. Player trading has been the life blood of Burnley Football Club, ever since the maximum wage was abolished. Don't forget, as we look at the club's history, BFC were a few minutes from going out of existence at the end of the 1987 season. It took a little over 20 years for the club to turn things around and in May 2009 at Wembley beat Sheffield United and get into the Premier League for the very first time. Then the club "yo-yo'd" between the Premier League and the Championship. Majority ownership switched from local businessmen, led by Barry Kilby, to international businessmen, Mike Garlick and John B, brought up and educated in Burnley, local born Burnley fans - but, for the first time, people running international businesses. Mike Garlick and John B took BFC as far as they could, the Premier League had become a "billionaires" game. The exit process of one group of shareholders always has challenges in finding the next group. The next group has always to be bigger than the last group - unless the club (or business) has failed. Burnley had proved they could "compete" in the Premier League, but it was always a qualified "compete" - as the big clubs got bigger and more and more money was poured into the big clubs (whatever ffp rules apply), the "road to success" for clubs with less resources gets steeper and steeper.

So, Garlick et al sell to ALK Capital because Alan Pace and his team were the only viable. Yes, they have Wall Street backgrounds. They are using their background to bring many people into the BFC investor group. It isn't just ALK Capital, it also has Velocity Sports Partners alongside where a number of investors can become investors, maybe at $5 million for an initial investment. ALK/VSL has to manage the risks of owning a football club. No one would buy into a football club and believe it is a "quick flip." Success for the investors only comes from owning a successful football club. There's no conflict between having a team winning on the field and the owners getting a return on their money. We've seen the ambitions for the club in signing Vincent Kompany as the manager. We've seen the ambitions in building a team that won the Championship last season. We've seen the ambitions in adding to the player resources in both the summer and the January transfer windows.

Yes, there are lots of things that haven't worked out this season. But, the project is to build a successful football team and that is tough, especially when you are competing with many much bigger clubs, with much more money to spend in the Premier League. We'd all love it if the results had been better this season, maybe just 10 more points and we'd all be happy. Maybe just 10 more points and no one would be asking "are we witnessing a failed project."

12 more games - and FFP points deductions for Everton and Notts Forest - it's not as tough as in many other seasons. There's a chance BFC are still Premier League next season...and, if not, gaining promotion from the Championship as been achieved 4 times in the last 15 seasons. ALK will know what they need to do to pursue the football success the team needs.

UTC

[Colburn_Claret]

I agree, in theory a club of our size cannot compete without player trading being the main source of income (TV money is entirely dependent on which division we are in) but what i may have failed to get across is that i don't think that ALK are the right people to make it work. They are not football people they are Wall St people. That coupled with VK's vested interest in having his own company showing itself to be successful is resulting in what we are seeing on the pitch. If we had football people in decision making positions would they have discarded last seasons team in such a manner or would they have enhanced it with a smaller number of quality players? In all honesty, I'm more inclined to lay the blame for this season at the feet of ALK than at VK's feet as ultimately they will make a profit if they sold up and walked away today,

How many clubs are run by 'football' people. They all hire people to see to that side of the game. I think ALK have put their money where their mouth is.
Foster, Odobert, Koleosho, O'shea.......we have bought many players that will make a profit. Its the team on the pitch that doesn't work, and that has to be on VKs head.
He's made some big mistakes, but deserves the chance to put it right. This season has been so bad, so very bad, that it's hard to remember how very good we were last season. It was almost impossible to imagine the fall we've witnessed.

[Woodleyclaret]

The previous directors left seriously minted with the vast profits they made from their quite modest investment. I realise that in some fans eyes Garlick could do no wrong but I believe not backing Sean left us where we are today
Personally I think Alan Pace will sort out our future wether VK is included remains to be seen.
At least we haven't got AP on Sky backing Vinnie only to sack him later

[Orangebernard]

Hi Orangebernard, welcome to the board. I started going on t'Turf in 1967, so I guess maybe 1 or 2 seasons before you. I hope you, like me, enjoyed the 5-1 victory of Leeds in the season Leeds won the league. I guess you, like me, remember the sales of Ralph Coates, Martin Dobson, Dave Thomas, to mention just a few. Sales that the club had to make to be able to pay the rest of the team - and pay for the "Martin Dobson" (aka Bob Lord) stand.

What I'm saying is that it has always be thus. Player trading has been the life blood of Burnley Football Club, ever since the maximum wage was abolished. Don't forget, as we look at the club's history, BFC were a few minutes from going out of existence at the end of the 1987 season. It took a little over 20 years for the club to turn things around and in May 2009 at Wembley beat Sheffield United and get into the Premier League for the very first time. Then the club "yo-yo'd" between the Premier League and the Championship. Majority ownership switched from local businessmen, led by Barry Kilby, to international businessmen, Mike Garlick and John B, brought up and educated in Burnley, local born Burnley fans - but, for the first time, people running international businesses. Mike Garlick and John B took BFC as far as they could, the Premier League had become a "billionaires" game. The exit process of one group of shareholders always has challenges in finding the next group. The next group has always to be bigger than the last group - unless the club (or business) has failed. Burnley had proved they could "compete" in the Premier League, but it was always a qualified "compete" - as the big clubs got bigger and more and more money was poured into the big clubs (whatever ffp rules apply), the "road to success" for clubs with less resources gets steeper and steeper.

So, Garlick et al sell to ALK Capital because Alan Pace and his team were the only viable. Yes, they have Wall Street backgrounds. They are using their background to bring many people into the BFC investor group. It isn't just ALK Capital, it also has Velocity Sports Partners alongside where a number of investors can become investors, maybe at $5 million for an initial investment. ALK/VSL has to manage the risks of owning a football club. No one would buy into a football club and believe it is a "quick flip." Success for the investors only comes from owning a successful football club. There's no conflict between having a team winning on the field and the owners getting a return on their money. We've seen the ambitions for the club in signing Vincent Kompany as the manager. We've seen the ambitions in building a team that won the Championship last season. We've seen the ambitions in adding to the player resources in both the summer and the January transfer windows.

Yes, there are lots of things that haven't worked out this season. But, the project is to build a successful football team and that is tough, especially when you are competing with many much bigger clubs, with much more money to spend in the Premier League. We'd all love it if the results had been better this season, maybe just 10 more points and we'd all be happy. Maybe just 10 more points and no one would be asking "are we witnessing a failed project."

12 more games - and FFP points deductions for Everton and Notts Forest - it's not as tough as in many other seasons. There's a chance BFC are still Premier League next season...and, if not, gaining promotion from the Championship as been achieved 4 times in the last 15 seasons. ALK will know what they need to do to pursue the football success the team needs.

UTC

Hi, Paul Waine, thanks for your response and i enjoy your comments on this board and in particular your comments on the finance related threads. You are correct i attended my first game in 1969 and despite living in various parts of the country i've barely missed a home game since. I do agree that we have always had to sell to 'compete' and we always will but i'm really struggling with the recruitment of last summer for this season. Surely VK and those football people involved knew that wholsesale changes to a winning team was ultra risky especially as those changes were on the whole inexperienced youngsters. Its a bit different selling on a couple of 'stars' to fund the next batch but to try to recruit almost an entire team of inexperienced young players seems like either a fundamental failure to understand how difficult the Premier League is or are ALK feeling the pressure to perform financially which is driving this? I hope they have learnt and the ship can be steadied because at the moment it feels like we are wobbling dangerously close to capsizing! Maybe a bit dramatic but i'm sure you get my point. As you have probably picked up i really want this chapter in our history to work out for all concerned but I'm very concerned for the welfare of our club.

[kentonclaret]

Just to add, for all of the seasons that Vincent Kompany spent at Manchester City he clearly didn’t learn much from Pep Guardiola if he underestimated the need for a commanding figure on the pitch to lead the team and having a strong defensive midfielder. During the many seasons he spent at City Kompany WAS that leader on the pitch.
In two weeks time at Cheltenham Constitution Hill is considered by many to be the Banker of the meeting to retain his Champion Hurdle crown and is priced up at odds of 1/3. Burnley to be relegated are 1/10.
Floating this idea that Burnley could still survive and retain their PL status is straw clutching in the extreme.

[CoolClaret]

It's not only the right way to go, it's the only way to go, especially for a club our size.

No idea how anyone can possibly come to this conclusion after witnessing the most successfuL period of oUr clubs history since the 70s doing something very different.

As for the OP - it's clearly failing and the reason this novel 'plan' is erm... novel, is the fact that no other teams do it and has success with it.

Also not sure how much this is purely ALK vs VK - I think it's as much of VKs plan; when ALK first came to the club we didn't buy a bunch of youngsters did we? Cornet, Roberts, Weghorst and the attempts of getting Orsic etc are very different types of players than we've predominantly seen sign this summer and last summer.

We're also not playing 'Man City Tactics' which I keep seeing repeated, it's like a sh1t version of Brighton at best - but really, really sh1t.

[beddie]

Previously we’ve had the luxury of not carrying any debt, that’s all changed now. ALK want a successful team, put simply that’s going to benefit everyone, it then puts ALK in a perfect position to sell the club should they decide to do that for a substantial profit. ALK will be sticking with VK, he bought into their strategy, the mistake they both made this season as highlighted above is not sticking with the team we had and buying some experienced players to enhance that team, even if it meant paying more money we really should have pushed the boat out for Harwood- Bellis - Tella and Maatsen, yes I know all the ins and out of why we couldn’t bring them in but money talks. We needed those players plus an experienced Keeper, another Centre back, and midfielder. That way we’d stand a chance of staying up, that in turn brings in more money to the club, thereafter VK could look at bringing in more youth. We’ve jumped too soon and ALK are to blame for allowing VK to spend all the money on youth. ALK will probably allow him to turn it around next season but if he doesn’t I think they’ll look at their options . So to answer the question ALK is not witnessing a failure at this stage, they are looking at their long term strategy, although depending on how things go next season that could all change.

[Lambo]

Colburn Claret has absolutely nailed it in his post…it is the only way to go for a club our size…ups and downs will be part and parcel of the project and we as fans have to embrace it. This season has been really poor following the highs of last year but it’s noticeable that the standard of the Premier league compared to the Championship has widened even more….for me, Vincent has more than enough credit in the bank, remember he’s a young manager learning his trade and if that means dropping down to rise again, and yes, I believe we’ll come back up at the first attempt…we have some fantastic individual players but not a fantastic team at the moment…time will improve that and next year we won’t be punished for every single mistake those young lads make….keep the faith and UTC

[Orangebernard]

How many clubs are run by 'football' people. They all hire people to see to that side of the game. I think ALK have put their money where their mouth is.
Foster, Odobert, Koleosho, O'shea.......we have bought many players that will make a profit. Its the team on the pitch that doesn't work, and that has to be on VKs head.
He's made some big mistakes, but deserves the chance to put it right. This season has been so bad, so very bad, that it's hard to remember how very good we were last season. It was almost impossible to imagine the fall we've witnessed.

Hi, can i just pick up on what you said about ALK putting their money where their mouth is, as i understand it and as far as can be understood from the accounts ALK have not put any of their own money into the football club at all. The $15m i quoted, and i don't actually know if this is a true amount, went to the previous major shareholders. The money being used to fund transfers etc, is either debt secured against Turf Moor and the training ground and possibly money from JJ and Jenkins etc. ALK have very little financial risk as they own a huge number of shares bought with someone else's money but do have the pressures of delivering a financial return for others. This is why i fear that if things don't go well on the pitch their financial heads will dictate what their sporting hearts do.

[bfcjg]

I think it regarding player trading to much to soon, hopefully lessons will be learnt. We have always sold to survive over the decades I've been a Claret, or players simply outgrowing us and wanting to move for bigger and better things. Hopefully the academy route will fund the investors need to make money and the clubs need to punch above our weight.

[kentonclaret]

My biggest fear is that Vincent Kompany and the owners view winning the Championship next season as a foregone conclusion given the previous title winning season with a haul of 101 points. That would be a huge mistake and enough have been made already.
The Season 2022/23 was the weakest Championship season that I can remember. At the start of that season Luton were 33/1 outsiders yet still managed to finish 5 points clear in 3rd place and come through the playoffs. The fact that all 3 promoted clubs currently fill the bottom 3 places in the PL demonstrates how weak a league it was. It won’t be so easy next time and there should be no room for complacency that it will be just a “gimme”.

[Colburn_Claret]

No idea how anyone can possibly come to this conclusion after witnessing the most successfuL period of oUr clubs history since the 70s doing something very different.

As for the OP - it's clearly failing and the reason this novel 'plan' is erm... novel, is the fact that no other teams do it and has success with it.

Also not sure how much this is purely ALK vs VK - I think it's as much of VKs plan; when ALK first came to the club we didn't buy a bunch of youngsters did we? Cornet, Roberts, Weghorst and the attempts of getting Orsic etc are very different types of players than we've predominantly seen sign this summer and last summer.

We're also not playing 'Man City Tactics' which I keep seeing repeated, it's like a sh1t version of Brighton at best - but really, really sh1t.

We'd been punching above our weight for years,and in SDs last season it was all coming apart. We had an aging squad, and not enough money to buy the necessary replacements. As I said at the time, relegation was a blessing in disguise. We lost some great players we would love to have kept, but we also lost a lot of players who weren't upto the Premier League anymore.
As in a previous post, we have always been a selling club, even at our most successful. The rise and rise of tv revenue money, only kept pace with the rise and rise of wages/running costs. There was very little left over to chase those 'better' players we were after.

One thing we have shown an improvement in, whether down to ALK or VK, is recruiting from abroad, where the bargains are to be had. If we had got the balance right, as many have stated, between finding some of the many talented players we have, but keeping us solid on the pitch we wouldn't be having this discussion. Fine margins, and hopefully a mistake we won't repeat.

[NewClaret]

Hi, Paul Waine, thanks for your response and i enjoy your comments on this board and in particular your comments on the finance related threads. You are correct i attended my first game in 1969 and despite living in various parts of the country i've barely missed a home game since. I do agree that we have always had to sell to 'compete' and we always will but i'm really struggling with the recruitment of last summer for this season. Surely VK and those football people involved knew that wholsesale changes to a winning team was ultra risky especially as those changes were on the whole inexperienced youngsters. Its a bit different selling on a couple of 'stars' to fund the next batch but to try to recruit almost an entire team of inexperienced young players seems like either a fundamental failure to understand how difficult the Premier League is or are ALK feeling the pressure to perform financially which is driving this? I hope they have learnt and the ship can be steadied because at the moment it feels like we are wobbling dangerously close to capsizing! Maybe a bit dramatic but i'm sure you get my point. As you have probably picked up i really want this chapter in our history to work out for all concerned but I'm very concerned for the welfare of our club.

Enjoyed the debate on this thread - it’s much more reasonable and adult than most - but I do think you’re being hugely over dramatic here. Capsizing would be 1987. We’re at the top table for goodness sake, going back to the second best league in the country (which, being honest, is a league more suited to our natural size). We’ll go down with a very talented team and a squad consisting of nearly all the players that took us up last time around. It’s not a disaster and we’re not capsizing at all. May have hit a few big waves though and of course work to do to steady the ship.

As per my previous post, I don’t think there’s any financial pressure on ALK as such, I think they’ve just hugely miss judged the value of experience, balance and leadership. I think they thought these kids could keep us up and that’s been proven wrong.

There is no world in which ALK make money on our sale unless they’re in the Premier League so it’s imperative to them that we’re there. I think they will learn and improve.

There is another theory though:

According to online sources, our wage bill is just north of £30m. That is well under half what it used to be. Think it previously pushed £90m.

IF that is true, even with other operating expenses you’d expect our c.£130m revenue to deliver a lot of surplus cash this year and potentially enough to have funded a significant amount of last years signings £96m spending.

Maybe the plan isn’t to buy in experience that eats away at that wage ratio and rather build it up from within, using surplus TV money (assuming future return to the Premier League) to build the club up with a core of youth that gains experience here over a number of years? It’s a viable strategy because in some ways that’s what Dyche did with Pope, Mee & Tarks and others; they came here quite young and built their experience here (although still weren’t good enough to keep us up).

Final point here is that I think the way our transfer business is being done (loans with options) is very sensible and protects us somewhat from the fall. I think we all dislike the leveraged buy out, but my point is I sense risks are also being managed effectively.

[Colburn_Claret]

Hi, can i just pick up on what you said about ALK putting their money where their mouth is, as i understand it and as far as can be understood from the accounts ALK have not put any of their own money into the football club at all. The $15m i quoted, and i don't actually know if this is a true amount, went to the previous major shareholders. The money being used to fund transfers etc, is either debt secured against Turf Moor and the training ground and possibly money from JJ and Jenkins etc. ALK have very little financial risk as they own a huge number of shares bought with someone else's money but do have the pressures of delivering a financial return for others. This is why i fear that if things don't go well on the pitch their financial heads will dictate what their sporting hearts do.

Of course it is their money. Whether it comes out of their pockets, or loans, if they sell the club the loans need to be repaid before they claim anything.
I don't understand the negativity towards AP and ALK, there wasn't a queue trying to buy us, they've committed to the area. When you are watching the football on your phone, at your daughters wedding reception, it's about a lot more than money. My faith in VK is wavering, although still there, but I have no doubts about the board. Even if it goes wrong it won't be because they don't care.

[Big Vinny K]

NewClaret

Our wage bill was around £30m directly after the first summer transfer window under VK.
It went up in subsequent windows and then will have gone up again of course with promotion.
I estimate it now to be between £60m and £70m.

[Paul Waine]

We'd been punching above our weight for years,and in SDs last season it was all coming apart. We had an aging squad, and not enough money to buy the necessary replacements. As I said at the time, relegation was a blessing in disguise. We lost some great players we would love to have kept, but we also lost a lot of players who weren't upto the Premier League anymore.
As in a previous post, we have always been a selling club, even at our most successful. The rise and rise of tv revenue money, only kept pace with the rise and rise of wages/running costs. There was very little left over to chase those 'better' players we were after.

One thing we have shown an improvement in, whether down to ALK or VK, is recruiting from abroad, where the bargains are to be had. If we had got the balance right, as many have stated, between finding some of the many talented players we have, but keeping us solid on the pitch we wouldn't be having this discussion. Fine margins, and hopefully a mistake we won't repeat.

Broadening the recruitment pool, i.e looking for and signing players from abroad is a massive improvement for BFC. It's one of the massive changes that Alan Pace/ALK have brought to the club. We shouldn't forget that Vincent Kompany is the first Burnley manager with African and European heritage. Plus the most successful footballer every connected to BFC, in terms of both national and international success.

UTC

[CoolClaret]

We'd been punching above our weight for years,and in SDs last season it was all coming apart. We had an aging squad, and not enough money to buy the necessary replacements. As I said at the time, relegation was a blessing in disguise. We lost some great players we would love to have kept, but we also lost a lot of players who weren't upto the Premier League anymore.
As in a previous post, we have always been a selling club, even at our most successful. The rise and rise of tv revenue money, only kept pace with the rise and rise of wages/running costs. There was very little left over to chase those 'better' players we were after.

One thing we have shown an improvement in, whether down to ALK or VK, is recruiting from abroad, where the bargains are to be had. If we had got the balance right, as many have stated, between finding some of the many talented players we have, but keeping us solid on the pitch we wouldn't be having this discussion. Fine margins, and hopefully a mistake we won't repeat.

Only reason it came apart is because the club was sold and investment wasn't made available.

We can look to buy players and develop them and sell them for a profit - but I think chasing that as the primary objective is futile - for me it should be a side effect of having a successful team, when one happens to outgrow it and bids come in then you reinvest etc

Expect more futile, hapless performances if the plan is to have a squad of players with the aim to have sold most of them within 2-3 seasons after signing.

[Burnley1989]

I remember suggesting the Brentford model was the way to go on here a few years back (when we were PL and they were championship) and almost getting laughed off the board.

I think I remember also, if I remember correctly a very prominent member was one that called it out as rubbish

[Colburn_Claret]

Only reason it came apart is because the club was sold and investment wasn't made available.

We can look to buy players and develop them and sell them for a profit - but I think chasing that as the primary objective is futile - for me it should be a side effect of having a successful team, when one happens to outgrow it and bids come in then you reinvest etc

Expect more futile, hapless performances if the plan is to have a squad of players with the aim to have sold most of them within 2-3 seasons after signing.

We couldn't afford the investment required to retain Prem status, which is why I said relegation was a blessing in disguise. We needed too many players at once. In the championship, with the money raised from Pope etc. we could afford the necessary rebuild.

Getting a balance between selling and maintaining a viable team on the pitch is obviously where the skill comes in, nobody has suggested we will be selling for sellings sake, more that we can sell when needed to keep the books balanced/reinvest. No doubt if successful ALK will make money too, but that's modern life inside or outside football.

[Middle-agedClaret]

Yes.

[NewClaret]

NewClaret

Our wage bill was around £30m directly after the first summer transfer window under VK.
It went up in subsequent windows and then will have gone up again of course with promotion.
I estimate it now to be between £60m and £70m.

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/burnley-fc/payroll/

Does incorrectly state we signed Reguilon, so that has to be deducted from the £35m total at the bottom.

Which do you think is inaccurate though? Some will be so I can guess it is higher.

Even at £60-70m though you could envisage a healthy chunk of the fees would be paid from the surplus though.

[clarethomer]

No I don't think we are witnessing a failing experiment.

What we are witnessing is the problems of short term impacts against the longer term goal.

We have been what - 18 months into VK tenure.

We have players like Koleosho, Odebert, Amdouni, Esteve, Bayer, Trafford, O Shea etc who are all very young in terms of PL perspective. The experiment as I understood it was.

Chuck them in and get them game time and experience - sign them on longish contracts that allows for this period and you know what - as they come into the last couple of years of their contract, we have some PL experience players where we can see some good profitability on them.

This allows us to buy in at a higher level and over a number of years, you set the club up in a better position. The issue is that as fans we cant cope with the longer term thinking when your sat there witnessing what we are each week.

What is happening will be understood by the board and the manager - its just the fans that just seem to be struggling with it.

[gawthorpe_view]

For a club like Burnley, rebuilding the team whilst playing in the Premier League is a bit like trying to fix your car with the engine running.

[hoskinsgoalatswansea]

I’m interested to see which players will be sold, and how much we get for them, and how this ties in with the ‘plan’. Will the plan revert to buying for the championship, with the belief that they’re not then good enough for the prem again if we go up?

[CoolClaret]

No I don't think we are witnessing a failing experiment.

What we are witnessing is the problems of short term impacts against the longer term goal.

We have been what - 18 months into VK tenure.

We have players like Koleosho, Odebert, Amdouni, Esteve, Bayer, Trafford, O Shea etc who are all very young in terms of PL perspective. The experiment as I understood it was.

Chuck them in and get them game time and experience - sign them on longish contracts that allows for this period and you know what - as they come into the last couple of years of their contract, we have some PL experience players where we can see some good profitability on them.

This allows us to buy in at a higher level and over a number of years, you set the club up in a better position. The issue is that as fans we cant cope with the longer term thinking when your sat there witnessing what we are each week.

What is happening will be understood by the board and the manager - its just the fans that just seem to be struggling with it.

Sounds good in theory..

See the problem is the short-term in football massively impacts the long term; especially when players have been purchased with cash that the club has borrowed...

[boyyanno]

We couldn't afford the investment required to retain Prem status, which is why I said relegation was a blessing in disguise. We needed too many players at once. In the championship, with the money raised from Pope etc. we could afford the necessary rebuild.

Getting a balance between selling and maintaining a viable team on the pitch is obviously where the skill comes in, nobody has suggested we will be selling for sellings sake, more that we can sell when needed to keep the books balanced/reinvest. No doubt if successful ALK will make money too, but that's modern life inside or outside football.

That's just not true at all and for a number of reasons.

1- We had money, we just didn't invest it in the squad. We used it to buy ourselves.
2- We had no debt, not only did we have money, we actually had 0 debt. We could have leveraged some just as ALK have, we'd have been in a much better position had we done so.
3- We'd have retained a lot more players if we went down and probably made more money if we did sell- Nick Pope wouldn't have gone cheap, I very much think Mee would have renewed.

There's some notion floating about that ALK have got loads of money, what's this based on? Loading the club with debt? If we couldn't afford to be a PL club then then we wouldn't be able to now- unless your of the opinion that this is some sort of sugar daddy type thing?

I don't get why you think Garlick couldn't have done exactly the same after operating sustainably for many years, would that not put us in an even better position? Of course it would, so no there isn't only one way to skin a cat.

[KRBFC]

Also it’s fickle to really make judgement on the strategy just yet, 6 months ago you would have said it was a success, now you will say failure, 6 months down the line you could be saying it’s a success again.

[KRBFC]

That's just not true at all and for a number of reasons.

1- We had money, we just didn't invest it in the squad. We used it to buy ourselves.
2- We had no debt, not only did we have money, we actually had 0 debt. We could have leveraged some just as ALK have, we'd have been in a much better position had we done so.
3- We'd have retained a lot more players if we went down and probably made more money if we did sell- Nick Pope wouldn't have gone cheap, I very much think Mee would have renewed.

There's some notion floating about that ALK have got loads of money, what's this based on? Loading the club with debt? If we couldn't afford to be a PL club then then we wouldn't be able to now- unless your of the opinion that this is some sort of sugar daddy type thing?

I don't get why you think Garlick couldn't have done exactly the same after operating sustainably for many years, would that not put us in an even better position? Of course it would, so no there isn't only one way to skin a cat.

You’re absolutely spot on with everything you said but I don’t see the point in now saying “Garlick could’ve taken out loans and invested the cash in the clubs account” when he obviously didn’t want to, he wanted out.

[CoolClaret]

Also it’s fickle to really make judgement on the strategy just yet, 6 months ago you would have said it was a success, now you will say failure, 6 months down the line you could be saying it’s a success again.

Depends on what the barometer is really -

No doubt about it, last season was very enjoyable, a breathe of fresh air and a wildly successful season overall.

Ultimately it only got us to where we were in August 2021, albeit with pretty much a brand new and much younger squad...

Now we look to return to where we were Summer 2022. Has to be a point in the line where one deems it a success or a failure, can either take a short-term look or a longer term view - can even use the Clubs' quotes verbatim Three or Five year plan (Whichever it is).

Not sure how putting up this sort of season can be seen as conducive into achieving the "five year plan" mind.

[RickyBobby]

The ALK strategy is to buy a load of kids, and only kids, when they become good sell them on and pocket the profit.
If that doesn’t work then assest strip.
They are in this to make money and they will do that. If that means the clubs gets liquidated then so what? Why should they care! They are business men who want profit at all costs.
Caring about the club doesn’t pay for the new mansion and Bugatti.

[KRBFC]

Depends on what the barometer is really -

No doubt about it, last season was very enjoyable, a breathe of fresh air and a wildly successful season overall.

Ultimately it only got us to where we were in August 2021, albeit with pretty much a brand new and much younger squad...

Now we look to return to where we were Summer 2022. Has to be a point in the line where one deems it a success or a failure, can either take a short-term look or a longer term view - can even use the Clubs' quotes verbatim Three or Five year plan (Whichever it is).

Not sure how putting up this sort of season can be seen as conducive into achieving the "five year plan" mind.

If we win the title next season, this horror season will have been worth it imo. Stack up our trophy cabinet with more trophies (even if it is the 2nd division title). Then hopefully we go into a new PL season, more experienced and with a more settled side (not 6 loan players, a bunch of kids and experienced players way past their best)

[forzagranata]

The original post is very good.

In reality, the much-heralded ALK 'project' is nothing new or innovative in any way- literally every club outside the Big Six in England and almost all clubs around the world are selling clubs. The idea of bringing in regular revenue by selling talent at a profit is just what most football clubs do. ALK sold this 'idea' to American investors as something radical, a brilliant idea that no-one else had ever thought of.....it's nothing of the sort.

The trick, of course, is to produce and sell players whilst remaining successful on the field. A good team will be a better place for young talent to develop and rise in value of course. This year has been a total disaster from that point of view.

There are some basic truths about the Championship and the Premier League and recruitment. By and large you get into the PL with an English core and then you have to start to mix it with a world blend as the PL is a world league and the championship is an English league

With English players alone you will ultimately end up back in the championship But with cheaper internationals the fate is also the same

There has been no balance at all to what has been done since promotion and we are seeing the results of that madness on the field every week.

The only way ALK will make money out of Burnley is by selling the club. They had a great window to sell at the end of last season when the value would have been high on re-entering the Premier League.

At the moment, Burnley don't look a great investment - large debts and heading into the Championship. They'll have to turn that around if they want to be back in a position to sell at a profit.

[KRBFC]

The ALK strategy is to buy a load of kids, and only kids, when they become good sell them on and pocket the profit.
If that doesn’t work then assest strip.
They are in this to make money and they will do that. If that means the clubs gets liquidated then so what? Why should they care! They are business men who want profit at all costs.
Caring about the club doesn’t pay for the new mansion and Bugatti.

That’s a very dangerous statement to post online. There has been no evidence of them asset stripping so I’d be careful with that.

The money is in the Premier League, not selling players as a 2nd tier side, that’s just treading water. Rovers just sold Wharton for £18m, they’re still making a loss every year.