Louis XVII

[Ilkley claret]

Strong parallels between Louis and VK

Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.

[Nori1958]

Strong parallels between Louis and VK

Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.

I worry for some people..

[Ilkley claret]

Louis was also reluctant to change

[CoolClaret]

Do you not mean King Louis XVI?

XVII was his young lad that died of illness.

[Ilkley claret]

Strong parallels between Louis and VK

Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.

[Bosscat]

Do you not mean King Louis XVI?

XVII was his young lad that died of illness.

Awe don't spoil a good yarn with truth and facts CC

[CoolClaret]

Awe don't spoil a good yarn with truth and facts CC

I just want to know who our Robespierre is!

[Bosscat]

Louis xvii was the Dolphin of France

[Rowls]

Then his son became the dolphin and he became the Roy. Whatever that means.

[Ilkley claret]

I just want to know who our Robespierre is!

Connor Roberts

[CoolClaret]

Connor Roberts

Rather looking forward to Connor's 'reign of terror'.

[dsr]

Strong parallels between Louis and VK

Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.

Louis XVII died aged 10 in 1795 and made very few decisions because he was a prisoner of the republic, kept in solitary confinement in a barred room (with no toilet) which became exctremely flithy, with food pushed through the bars. Later let out into a different cell so they could beat him every night and twice on Sundays.

Few comparisons with Vincent Kompany. (And there aren't many comparisons between Kompany and the beheaded Louis XVI, either.)

[morpheus2]

Then his son became the dolphin and he became the Roy. Whatever that means.

[morpheus2]

Roy of the Roy Veux

[Hipper]

Are we talking Jean-Louis Valois of the Valois dynasty?

[evensteadiereddie]

We're losing our sense of porpoise here, folks.

[bfcjg]

I blame garlic and Garlick.

[Alanstevensonsgloves]

I blame garlic and Garlick.

Garlic is nice with a baguette...

Garlick is Machiavelli.....

[Alanstevensonsgloves]

Hello Ilkley Claret from another claret in Ilkley.

If you see a little chap wandering around town / Tescos in a 70s 'V' ski hat... it's me!

[Westleigh]

Let them eat cake.

[elwaclaret]

I just want to know who our Robespierre is!

Robespierre has been used as a scapegoat for many things… Louis’s demise amongst them. He was guilty of a lot, but the king did accept proportional representation and was retained as head of state. Robespierre was a lawyer trying to prevent anarchy while wrestling power for the middle class… he eventually paid for failing; which cost both the king and himself to face the guillotine at the hands of the revolutionary council… and then be blamed for everything.

The king got his deserts though many would argue, because he was PRO-Revolution when it suited him… it was his open support and funding for the rebellion of the thirteen states of British America that both bankrupted France and created the revolutionary fervour that erupted in France (and very nearly Britain) in the late eighteenth century.

[CoolClaret]

Robespierre has been used as a scapegoat for many things… Louis’s demise amongst them. He was guilty of a lot, but the king did accept proportional representation and was retained as head of state. Robespierre was a lawyer trying to prevent anarchy while wrestling power for the middle class… he eventually paid for failing; which cost both the king and himself to face the guillotine at the hands of the revolutionary council… and then be blamed for everything.

The king got his deserts though many would argue, because he was PRO-Revolution when it suited him… it was his open support and funding for the rebellion of the thirteen states of British America that both bankrupted France and created the revolutionary fervour that erupted in France (and very nearly Britain) in the late eighteenth century.

Yes - so who is Burnley's Robespierre?!

[FCBurnley]

Much prefer Louis XIII

[elwaclaret]

Yes - so who is Burnley's Robespierre?!

Robespierre is most famous for creating the motto… Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and tried to steer the ship… so that role can only go to Alan Pace, it is a bad fit though as the Morman church did not exist until being founded in New York in 1830 by Joseph Smith… and their history was more akin to native American’s than the French Revolution, meaning their outlook is very different from that of the French… they had to keep moving and fighting before landing in Salt Lake, an area no one in their right minds would settle, before they were tolerated if not exactly left alone… it created an insular and self reliant unit, that is ill disposed to outside noise and wider the opinion of non believers.

[Rowls]

Robespierre has been used as a scapegoat for many things… Louis’s demise amongst them. He was guilty of a lot, but the king did accept proportional representation and was retained as head of state. Robespierre was a lawyer trying to prevent anarchy while wrestling power for the middle class… he eventually paid for failing; which cost both the king and himself to face the guillotine at the hands of the revolutionary council… and then be blamed for everything.

The king got his deserts though many would argue, because he was PRO-Revolution when it suited him… it was his open support and funding for the rebellion of the thirteen states of British America that both bankrupted France and created the revolutionary fervour that erupted in France (and very nearly Britain) in the late eighteenth century.

Nice and knowledgeable. I don't think we came close to a revolution here in GB though.

[CoolClaret]

Robespierre is most famous for creating the motto… Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and tried to steer the ship… so that role can only go to Alan Pace, it is a bad fit though as the Morman church did not exist until being founded in New York in 1830 by Joseph Smith… and their history was more akin to native American’s than the French Revolution, meaning their outlook is very different from that of the French… they had to keep moving and fighting before landing in Salt Lake, an area no one in their right minds would settle, before they were tolerated if not exactly left alone… it created an insular and self reliant unit, that is ill disposed to outside noise and wider the opinion of non believers.

Yeah I'm not so sure I'd have Pace as Robespierre... prefer the Connor Roberts shouts.

[Ilkley claret]

Hello Ilkley Claret from another claret in Ilkley.

If you see a little chap wandering around town / Tescos in a 70s 'V' ski hat... it's me!

Will keep an eye out but given you are in your 70s shouldn’t you be shopping in Booths or M&S! That’s where I go!
Plenty of clarets I’ve come across in Ilkley/Burley.
For my birthday the other year there were 25 of us in Ilkley Wetherspoons.

The King Louis theme came from my daughter who is a massive claret and came up with the VK comparison during a recent history lesson!

[elwaclaret]

Nice and knowledgeable. I don't think we came close to a revolution here in GB though.

I’d recommend a bit of late eighteenth/early nineteenth lit Rowls…. The leading light of American Revolution enlightenment was Thomas Paine… the English theorist… then there was Shelley, Byron and the whole Age of Enlightenment… terrified the Prince Regent and Sidmouth…. Not least Hunt’s Reform movement that attracted crowds across the land of 40K plus…. 100k in London and Birmingham, 40k in Blackburn, 60k at St Peter’s field Manchester in 1819. The Bristol riots….

I recommend my friend and (my) former lecturer (and Cambridge graduate) Prof. Robert Poole as a go to author for the period, and especially his work around Peterloo… to peek around the curtain of the sanitised history created in Victorian Britain that dominated the history books of our youth.

[Rowls]

I’d recommend a bit of late eighteenth/early nineteenth lit Rowls…. The leading light of American Revolution enlightenment was Thomas Paine… the English theorist… then there was Shelley, Byron and the whole Age of Enlightenment… terrified the Prince Regent and Sidmouth…. Not least Hunt’s Reform movement that attracted crowds across the land of 40K plus…. 100k in London and Birmingham, 40k in Blackburn, 60k at St Peter’s field Manchester in 1819. The Bristol riots….

I recommend my friend and (my) former lecturer (and Cambridge graduate) Prof. Robert Poole as a go to author for the period, and especially his work around Peterloo… to peek around the curtain of the sanitised history created in Victorian Britain that dominated the history books of our youth.

Oh yes, there was a degree of middle class support for the ideals of the Revolution but it never transferred to any real action and our population were relatively free and well-fed compared to the Frenchies. It undoubtedly frightened the ruling class and there was a lot of disruption but we never had a "sans culotte" class as desperate as the French and our middle classes had far too much invested in not rocking the boat.

But questions like "How Close Did Great Britain Come to Revolution in the late 18th..." are much better suited to essays and university studies than forum pages.

[elwaclaret]

Oh yes, there was a degree of middle class support for the ideals of the Revolution but it never transferred to any real action and our population were relatively free and well-fed compared to the Frenchies. It undoubtedly frightened the ruling class and there was a lot of disruption but we never had a "sans culotte" class as desperate as the French and our middle classes had far too much invested in not rocking the boat.

But questions like "How Close Did Great Britain Come to Revolution in the late 18th..." are much better suited to essays and university studies than forum pages.

The four famines in France certainly aided the Revolution, but to suggest it did not transfer in any serious manner ignores far too much… from the mis-represented Luddite Movement, Spencerism, the blanketeers, the chartists (all major campaigns for social reform) and from the top of my head…. In Parliament the Foxite movement was another….

Britain teetered on the edge of revolution for around fifty years. Most never saw the true deprivations of the period because the slums were hidden from the main roads, behind elegant buildings e.g. Preston, Manchester, London.

I would really like you to look into this, as you are obviously interested and it is a truly fascinating and eye opening study… that demonstrates that the eighteenth century was much more ‘modern’ in approach and outlook than the later Victorian values that infected everything written up to the late 1980’s when challenging existing research became acceptable and the whole study of history shifted.

[elwaclaret]

Oh yes, there was a degree of middle class support for the ideals of the Revolution but it never transferred to any real action and our population were relatively free and well-fed compared to the Frenchies. It undoubtedly frightened the ruling class and there was a lot of disruption but we never had a "sans culotte" class as desperate as the French and our middle classes had far too much invested in not rocking the boat.

But questions like "How Close Did Great Britain Come to Revolution in the late 18th..." are much better suited to essays and university studies than forum pages.

Did that very essay as part of my Literature/History combined Hons.

[Dark Cloud]

As a result of the Black Death towards the end of the 14th century which wiped out in excess of a third of the population and in some areas a half, everything in England was in short supply, including labour. This caused living standards to rise dramatically as artisans and farmers could get good prices for what they produced and labourers could better haggle for acceptable wages and improved conditions. Thus "Serfs" basically disappeared here by 1500. Whilst also being dramatically affected by said Black Death, countries on the continent managed to surpress many of the benefits felt in England and keep prices and people down and feudel/peasant systems still intact. Fast forward to 1789 and despite having admittedly a very "poor class" in England , the English poor still enjoyed much more freedom and better standards than their counterparts on the continent, which helps a lot if you're trying to stave off a mass revolt!

[Alanstevensonsgloves]

Will keep an eye out but given you are in your 70s shouldn’t you be shopping in Booths or M&S! That’s where I go!
Plenty of clarets I’ve come across in Ilkley/Burley.
For my birthday the other year there were 25 of us in Ilkley Wetherspoons.

I'm 52 cheeky sod! I'm referring to the 'V' strip we had in the 70s!

Booths is for special occasions only. My address may be Ilkley, but my bank balance isn't

[elwaclaret]

As a result of the Black Death towards the end of the 14th century which wiped out in excess of a third of the population and in some areas a half, everything in England was in short supply, including labour. This caused living standards to rise dramatically as artisans and farmers could get good prices for what they produced and labourers could better haggle for acceptable wages and improved conditions. Thus "Serfs" basically disappeared here by 1500. Whilst also being dramatically affected by said Black Death, countries on the continent managed to surpress many of the benefits felt in England and keep prices and people down and feudel/peasant systems still intact. Fast forward to 1789 and despite having admittedly a very "poor class" in England , the English poor still enjoyed much more freedom and better standards than their counterparts on the continent, which helps a lot if you're trying to stave off a mass revolt!

Good post but there is no fast forward from the Black Death to the age of revolt. The Age of Enlightenment aka the age of revolt brought an age of invention where the ‘well off’ artisan class (the middling sort) where split between the law and trade… the lawyers stayed close to the establishment and many of the tradesmen saw their skills replaced by cheaper inferior products produced on early machinery… the luddites were middling sort lacemakers and weavers, today we would call them the middle class; that culminated in the Manchester Luddite riots…. As the nation industrialised the rural classes were forced into industrialising cities…

Do not underestimate the shock and sudden levels of destitution this produced. It is a very different model to agricultural (and famine) of rural France, which was galvanised by the theorists in Britain and beyond… the fight between theories of Method in teaching, religion against feudal ideas of ‘the ruling class’ are just one of the agitations at play as Britain lurched into industrialisation and eventually (much later) modern democracy… all the ingredients for revolution were there. Britain was much more a military state and repression was key to suppressing political agitation in this country… they hung them quietly (including many protestors from Burnley that were hung in the town for taking part in Hunt’s Blackburn Reform meeting), only weeks before Peterloo (and is why few people were from Burnley at Peterloo itself).

[AlargeClaret]

Who’d have thought so many forumites would be so well versed in French Renaissance political intrigue allied to a cheeky side of regicide !

My main concern would be a clean execution, due the sheer size of Vincent’s Head . Early guilotines were as erratic as an old Renault 5 .

How ironic if Pace was to play the role of Sanson having been so loyal to VK and now having to chop his once worshipped “King’s head “ off . I bet there’d be a good few off here dipping their hankies in too .

[elwaclaret]

Who’d have thought so many forumites would be so well versed in French Renaissance political intrigue allied to a cheeky side of regicide !

My main concern would be a clean execution, due the sheer size of Vincent’s Head . Early guilotines were as erratic as an old Renault 5 .

How ironic if Pace was to play the role of Sanson having been so loyal to VK and now having to chop his once worshipped “King’s head “ off . I bet there’d be a good few off here dipping their hankies in too .

You observation about guillotines is wide of the mark, but I see the need for it in your piece (without being drawn into the rights and wrongs of its arguments main thrust). Interesting the guillotine was seen as a breakthrough in corporal punishment as it was so clean quick and effective. Of course the inventor himself would eventually testify to its effectiveness when he fell foul of the revolutionaries.

So to quote Carry on… Don’t lose your head, trying to claim Vinnie’s.

[AlargeClaret]

You observation about guillotines is wide of the mark, but I see the need for it in your piece (without being drawn into the rights and wrongs of its arguments main thrust). Interesting the guillotine was seen as a breakthrough in corporal punishment as it was so clean quick and effective. Of course the inventor himself would eventually testify to its effectiveness when he fell foul of the revolutionaries.

So to quote Carry on… Don’t lose your head, trying to claim Vinnie’s.

They were certainly better than an often drunk executioner with an axe ! And how otherwise could I have shoehorned the size of VK’s head in ( so to speak ) the dipping of hankies in his blood was of course also surely utter nonsense . Was it a later Masonic thing inserted into folklore ? I think Dumas alluded to it or maybe he didn’t .

[Ilkley claret]

I'm 52 cheeky sod! I'm referring to the 'V' strip we had in the 70s!

Booths is for special occasions only. My address may be Ilkley, but my bank balance isn't

Apologies mis read your post!

[elwaclaret]

They were certainly better than an often drunk executioner with an axe ! And how otherwise could I have shoehorned the size of VK’s head in ( so to speak ) the dipping of hankies in his blood was of course also surely utter nonsense . Was it a later Masonic thing inserted into folklore ? I think Dumas alluded to it or maybe he didn’t .

Indeed, and is why the victim often paid their executioner handsomely to do the job right. We have a rather lopsided view of the French Revolution generally… a good fiction account of the early revolution is Dickens tale of two cities. The middle class quickly lost control of the poorest areas of Paris but it all started at a tennis club meeting! They Revolutionary committee chose guillotines as more humane than the British penalty of hanging… pre method thinking hanging was little more than death by slow strangulation.

It is hard not to think of life without method today… but that is purely the result of the joined up thinking of the often ignored long eighteenth century (age of revolt/enlightenment/reason) It took a lot of decapitations to learn to just snap a neck… (for example).Before the eighteenth century we only had the Devine Rights… dating back to the Norman invasion (Devine right of a class/religious sect to rule).

[houseboy]

Awe don't spoil a good yarn with truth and facts CC

Looks like a possible good view on Friday Boss. New series called The Completely Made Up Story of Dick Turpin starting. Might be worth a look. I’ll miss it cos I’m away but I’m sure I’ll catch up.

[Bosscat]

Looks like a possible good view on Friday Boss. New series called The Completely Made Up Story of Dick Turpin starting. Might be worth a look. I’ll miss it cos I’m away but I’m sure I’ll catch up.

Started watching "Masters of the Air" on our free months trial of "Apple TV" last night ... not too bad either

[jdrobbo]

Will keep an eye out but given you are in your 70s shouldn’t you be shopping in Booths or M&S! That’s where I go!
Plenty of clarets I’ve come across in Ilkley/Burley.
For my birthday the other year there were 25 of us in Ilkley Wetherspoons.

The King Louis theme came from my daughter who is a massive claret and came up with the VK comparison during a recent history lesson!

Get yourself to a West Yorkshire Clarets gathering. You’d be very welcome. UTC

John (Menston)

[Ilkley claret]

Get yourself to a West Yorkshire Clarets gathering. You’d be very welcome. UTC

John (Menston)

Yes must admit I have followed where you lot meet up. You were in central Leeds no long back and I was planning on popping in but something came up. I can usually be found in The Hermit.

[Hipper]

'The middling sort'. I'd never heard of this phrase until last year when I read a book on the history of a school founded in the Elizabethan times. It was used incessantly without explanation for many pages until I thought I'd finally grasped what it meant. I'm not sure I actually did!

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ab ... 177A14E7A2

[dsr]

Judging from the vocabulary of the article, I would presume that the "middling sort" is used because the author thinks too many plebs would understand what he meant by "middle class".

[jdrobbo]

Yes must admit I have followed where you lot meet up. You were in central Leeds no long back and I was planning on popping in but something came up. I can usually be found in The Hermit.

Back there in four weeks!

IMG_4272.jpeg (1.01 MiB) Viewed 742 times

[IanMcL]

Thought we had signed a new number 17, probably from Italy, as he uses Roman numerals.