Louis XVII
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Louis XVII
Strong parallels between Louis and VK
Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.
Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.
Re: Louis XVII
I worry for some people..Ilkley claret wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:40 pmStrong parallels between Louis and VK
Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.
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Re: Louis XVII
Louis was also reluctant to change
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Re: Louis XVII
Do you not mean King Louis XVI?
XVII was his young lad that died of illness.
XVII was his young lad that died of illness.
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Re: Louis XVI
Ilkley claret wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:40 pmStrong parallels between Louis and VK
Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.
Re: Louis XVII
Awe don't spoil a good yarn with truth and facts CCCoolClaret wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:46 pmDo you not mean King Louis XVI?
XVII was his young lad that died of illness.
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Re: Louis XVII
Then his son became the dolphin and he became the Roy. Whatever that means.
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Re: Louis XVII
Rather looking forward to Connor's 'reign of terror'.
Re: Louis XVII
Louis XVII died aged 10 in 1795 and made very few decisions because he was a prisoner of the republic, kept in solitary confinement in a barred room (with no toilet) which became exctremely flithy, with food pushed through the bars. Later let out into a different cell so they could beat him every night and twice on Sundays.Ilkley claret wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:40 pmStrong parallels between Louis and VK
Loved at first but made bad decisions and ultimately was disposed in Jan 1793.
Few comparisons with Vincent Kompany. (And there aren't many comparisons between Kompany and the beheaded Louis XVI, either.)
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Re: Louis XVII
Are we talking Jean-Louis Valois of the Valois dynasty?
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Re: Louis XVII
We're losing our sense of porpoise here, folks.
Re: Louis XVII
I blame garlic and Garlick.
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Re: Louis XVII
Hello Ilkley Claret from another claret in Ilkley.
If you see a little chap wandering around town / Tescos in a 70s 'V' ski hat... it's me!
If you see a little chap wandering around town / Tescos in a 70s 'V' ski hat... it's me!
Re: Louis XVII
Let them eat cake.
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Re: Louis XVII
Robespierre has been used as a scapegoat for many things… Louis’s demise amongst them. He was guilty of a lot, but the king did accept proportional representation and was retained as head of state. Robespierre was a lawyer trying to prevent anarchy while wrestling power for the middle class… he eventually paid for failing; which cost both the king and himself to face the guillotine at the hands of the revolutionary council… and then be blamed for everything.
The king got his deserts though many would argue, because he was PRO-Revolution when it suited him… it was his open support and funding for the rebellion of the thirteen states of British America that both bankrupted France and created the revolutionary fervour that erupted in France (and very nearly Britain) in the late eighteenth century.
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Re: Louis XVII
Yes - so who is Burnley's Robespierre?!elwaclaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 2:09 pmRobespierre has been used as a scapegoat for many things… Louis’s demise amongst them. He was guilty of a lot, but the king did accept proportional representation and was retained as head of state. Robespierre was a lawyer trying to prevent anarchy while wrestling power for the middle class… he eventually paid for failing; which cost both the king and himself to face the guillotine at the hands of the revolutionary council… and then be blamed for everything.
The king got his deserts though many would argue, because he was PRO-Revolution when it suited him… it was his open support and funding for the rebellion of the thirteen states of British America that both bankrupted France and created the revolutionary fervour that erupted in France (and very nearly Britain) in the late eighteenth century.
Re: Louis XVII
Much prefer Louis XIII
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Re: Louis XVII
Robespierre is most famous for creating the motto… Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and tried to steer the ship… so that role can only go to Alan Pace, it is a bad fit though as the Morman church did not exist until being founded in New York in 1830 by Joseph Smith… and their history was more akin to native American’s than the French Revolution, meaning their outlook is very different from that of the French… they had to keep moving and fighting before landing in Salt Lake, an area no one in their right minds would settle, before they were tolerated if not exactly left alone… it created an insular and self reliant unit, that is ill disposed to outside noise and wider the opinion of non believers.
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Re: Louis XVII
Nice and knowledgeable. I don't think we came close to a revolution here in GB though.elwaclaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 2:09 pmRobespierre has been used as a scapegoat for many things… Louis’s demise amongst them. He was guilty of a lot, but the king did accept proportional representation and was retained as head of state. Robespierre was a lawyer trying to prevent anarchy while wrestling power for the middle class… he eventually paid for failing; which cost both the king and himself to face the guillotine at the hands of the revolutionary council… and then be blamed for everything.
The king got his deserts though many would argue, because he was PRO-Revolution when it suited him… it was his open support and funding for the rebellion of the thirteen states of British America that both bankrupted France and created the revolutionary fervour that erupted in France (and very nearly Britain) in the late eighteenth century.
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Re: Louis XVII
Yeah I'm not so sure I'd have Pace as Robespierre... prefer the Connor Roberts shouts.elwaclaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 2:36 pmRobespierre is most famous for creating the motto… Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and tried to steer the ship… so that role can only go to Alan Pace, it is a bad fit though as the Morman church did not exist until being founded in New York in 1830 by Joseph Smith… and their history was more akin to native American’s than the French Revolution, meaning their outlook is very different from that of the French… they had to keep moving and fighting before landing in Salt Lake, an area no one in their right minds would settle, before they were tolerated if not exactly left alone… it created an insular and self reliant unit, that is ill disposed to outside noise and wider the opinion of non believers.
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Re: Louis XVII
Will keep an eye out but given you are in your 70s shouldn’t you be shopping in Booths or M&S! That’s where I go!Alanstevensonsgloves wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:18 pmHello Ilkley Claret from another claret in Ilkley.
If you see a little chap wandering around town / Tescos in a 70s 'V' ski hat... it's me!
Plenty of clarets I’ve come across in Ilkley/Burley.
For my birthday the other year there were 25 of us in Ilkley Wetherspoons.
The King Louis theme came from my daughter who is a massive claret and came up with the VK comparison during a recent history lesson!
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Re: Louis XVII
I’d recommend a bit of late eighteenth/early nineteenth lit Rowls…. The leading light of American Revolution enlightenment was Thomas Paine… the English theorist… then there was Shelley, Byron and the whole Age of Enlightenment… terrified the Prince Regent and Sidmouth…. Not least Hunt’s Reform movement that attracted crowds across the land of 40K plus…. 100k in London and Birmingham, 40k in Blackburn, 60k at St Peter’s field Manchester in 1819. The Bristol riots….
I recommend my friend and (my) former lecturer (and Cambridge graduate) Prof. Robert Poole as a go to author for the period, and especially his work around Peterloo… to peek around the curtain of the sanitised history created in Victorian Britain that dominated the history books of our youth.
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Re: Louis XVII
Oh yes, there was a degree of middle class support for the ideals of the Revolution but it never transferred to any real action and our population were relatively free and well-fed compared to the Frenchies. It undoubtedly frightened the ruling class and there was a lot of disruption but we never had a "sans culotte" class as desperate as the French and our middle classes had far too much invested in not rocking the boat.elwaclaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:13 pmI’d recommend a bit of late eighteenth/early nineteenth lit Rowls…. The leading light of American Revolution enlightenment was Thomas Paine… the English theorist… then there was Shelley, Byron and the whole Age of Enlightenment… terrified the Prince Regent and Sidmouth…. Not least Hunt’s Reform movement that attracted crowds across the land of 40K plus…. 100k in London and Birmingham, 40k in Blackburn, 60k at St Peter’s field Manchester in 1819. The Bristol riots….
I recommend my friend and (my) former lecturer (and Cambridge graduate) Prof. Robert Poole as a go to author for the period, and especially his work around Peterloo… to peek around the curtain of the sanitised history created in Victorian Britain that dominated the history books of our youth.
But questions like "How Close Did Great Britain Come to Revolution in the late 18th..." are much better suited to essays and university studies than forum pages.
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Re: Louis XVII
The four famines in France certainly aided the Revolution, but to suggest it did not transfer in any serious manner ignores far too much… from the mis-represented Luddite Movement, Spencerism, the blanketeers, the chartists (all major campaigns for social reform) and from the top of my head…. In Parliament the Foxite movement was another….Rowls wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:31 pmOh yes, there was a degree of middle class support for the ideals of the Revolution but it never transferred to any real action and our population were relatively free and well-fed compared to the Frenchies. It undoubtedly frightened the ruling class and there was a lot of disruption but we never had a "sans culotte" class as desperate as the French and our middle classes had far too much invested in not rocking the boat.
But questions like "How Close Did Great Britain Come to Revolution in the late 18th..." are much better suited to essays and university studies than forum pages.
Britain teetered on the edge of revolution for around fifty years. Most never saw the true deprivations of the period because the slums were hidden from the main roads, behind elegant buildings e.g. Preston, Manchester, London.
I would really like you to look into this, as you are obviously interested and it is a truly fascinating and eye opening study… that demonstrates that the eighteenth century was much more ‘modern’ in approach and outlook than the later Victorian values that infected everything written up to the late 1980’s when challenging existing research became acceptable and the whole study of history shifted.
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Re: Louis XVII
Did that very essay as part of my Literature/History combined Hons.Rowls wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 4:31 pmOh yes, there was a degree of middle class support for the ideals of the Revolution but it never transferred to any real action and our population were relatively free and well-fed compared to the Frenchies. It undoubtedly frightened the ruling class and there was a lot of disruption but we never had a "sans culotte" class as desperate as the French and our middle classes had far too much invested in not rocking the boat.
But questions like "How Close Did Great Britain Come to Revolution in the late 18th..." are much better suited to essays and university studies than forum pages.
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Re: Louis XVII
As a result of the Black Death towards the end of the 14th century which wiped out in excess of a third of the population and in some areas a half, everything in England was in short supply, including labour. This caused living standards to rise dramatically as artisans and farmers could get good prices for what they produced and labourers could better haggle for acceptable wages and improved conditions. Thus "Serfs" basically disappeared here by 1500. Whilst also being dramatically affected by said Black Death, countries on the continent managed to surpress many of the benefits felt in England and keep prices and people down and feudel/peasant systems still intact. Fast forward to 1789 and despite having admittedly a very "poor class" in England , the English poor still enjoyed much more freedom and better standards than their counterparts on the continent, which helps a lot if you're trying to stave off a mass revolt!
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Re: Louis XVII
I'm 52 cheeky sod! I'm referring to the 'V' strip we had in the 70s!Ilkley claret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:46 pmWill keep an eye out but given you are in your 70s shouldn’t you be shopping in Booths or M&S! That’s where I go!
Plenty of clarets I’ve come across in Ilkley/Burley.
For my birthday the other year there were 25 of us in Ilkley Wetherspoons.
Booths is for special occasions only. My address may be Ilkley, but my bank balance isn't
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Re: Louis XVII
Good post but there is no fast forward from the Black Death to the age of revolt. The Age of Enlightenment aka the age of revolt brought an age of invention where the ‘well off’ artisan class (the middling sort) where split between the law and trade… the lawyers stayed close to the establishment and many of the tradesmen saw their skills replaced by cheaper inferior products produced on early machinery… the luddites were middling sort lacemakers and weavers, today we would call them the middle class; that culminated in the Manchester Luddite riots…. As the nation industrialised the rural classes were forced into industrialising cities…Dark Cloud wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:26 pmAs a result of the Black Death towards the end of the 14th century which wiped out in excess of a third of the population and in some areas a half, everything in England was in short supply, including labour. This caused living standards to rise dramatically as artisans and farmers could get good prices for what they produced and labourers could better haggle for acceptable wages and improved conditions. Thus "Serfs" basically disappeared here by 1500. Whilst also being dramatically affected by said Black Death, countries on the continent managed to surpress many of the benefits felt in England and keep prices and people down and feudel/peasant systems still intact. Fast forward to 1789 and despite having admittedly a very "poor class" in England , the English poor still enjoyed much more freedom and better standards than their counterparts on the continent, which helps a lot if you're trying to stave off a mass revolt!
Do not underestimate the shock and sudden levels of destitution this produced. It is a very different model to agricultural (and famine) of rural France, which was galvanised by the theorists in Britain and beyond… the fight between theories of Method in teaching, religion against feudal ideas of ‘the ruling class’ are just one of the agitations at play as Britain lurched into industrialisation and eventually (much later) modern democracy… all the ingredients for revolution were there. Britain was much more a military state and repression was key to suppressing political agitation in this country… they hung them quietly (including many protestors from Burnley that were hung in the town for taking part in Hunt’s Blackburn Reform meeting), only weeks before Peterloo (and is why few people were from Burnley at Peterloo itself).
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Re: Louis XVII
Who’d have thought so many forumites would be so well versed in French Renaissance political intrigue allied to a cheeky side of regicide !
My main concern would be a clean execution, due the sheer size of Vincent’s Head . Early guilotines were as erratic as an old Renault 5 .
How ironic if Pace was to play the role of Sanson having been so loyal to VK and now having to chop his once worshipped “King’s head “ off . I bet there’d be a good few off here dipping their hankies in too .
My main concern would be a clean execution, due the sheer size of Vincent’s Head . Early guilotines were as erratic as an old Renault 5 .
How ironic if Pace was to play the role of Sanson having been so loyal to VK and now having to chop his once worshipped “King’s head “ off . I bet there’d be a good few off here dipping their hankies in too .
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Re: Louis XVII
You observation about guillotines is wide of the mark, but I see the need for it in your piece (without being drawn into the rights and wrongs of its arguments main thrust). Interesting the guillotine was seen as a breakthrough in corporal punishment as it was so clean quick and effective. Of course the inventor himself would eventually testify to its effectiveness when he fell foul of the revolutionaries.AlargeClaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:02 pmWho’d have thought so many forumites would be so well versed in French Renaissance political intrigue allied to a cheeky side of regicide !
My main concern would be a clean execution, due the sheer size of Vincent’s Head . Early guilotines were as erratic as an old Renault 5 .
How ironic if Pace was to play the role of Sanson having been so loyal to VK and now having to chop his once worshipped “King’s head “ off . I bet there’d be a good few off here dipping their hankies in too .
So to quote Carry on… Don’t lose your head, trying to claim Vinnie’s.
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Re: Louis XVII
They were certainly better than an often drunk executioner with an axe ! And how otherwise could I have shoehorned the size of VK’s head in ( so to speak ) the dipping of hankies in his blood was of course also surely utter nonsense . Was it a later Masonic thing inserted into folklore ? I think Dumas alluded to it or maybe he didn’t .elwaclaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:14 pmYou observation about guillotines is wide of the mark, but I see the need for it in your piece (without being drawn into the rights and wrongs of its arguments main thrust). Interesting the guillotine was seen as a breakthrough in corporal punishment as it was so clean quick and effective. Of course the inventor himself would eventually testify to its effectiveness when he fell foul of the revolutionaries.
So to quote Carry on… Don’t lose your head, trying to claim Vinnie’s.
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Re: Louis XVII
Apologies mis read your post!Alanstevensonsgloves wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:37 pmI'm 52 cheeky sod! I'm referring to the 'V' strip we had in the 70s!
Booths is for special occasions only. My address may be Ilkley, but my bank balance isn't
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Re: Louis XVII
Indeed, and is why the victim often paid their executioner handsomely to do the job right. We have a rather lopsided view of the French Revolution generally… a good fiction account of the early revolution is Dickens tale of two cities. The middle class quickly lost control of the poorest areas of Paris but it all started at a tennis club meeting! They Revolutionary committee chose guillotines as more humane than the British penalty of hanging… pre method thinking hanging was little more than death by slow strangulation.AlargeClaret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:34 pmThey were certainly better than an often drunk executioner with an axe ! And how otherwise could I have shoehorned the size of VK’s head in ( so to speak ) the dipping of hankies in his blood was of course also surely utter nonsense . Was it a later Masonic thing inserted into folklore ? I think Dumas alluded to it or maybe he didn’t .
It is hard not to think of life without method today… but that is purely the result of the joined up thinking of the often ignored long eighteenth century (age of revolt/enlightenment/reason) It took a lot of decapitations to learn to just snap a neck… (for example).Before the eighteenth century we only had the Devine Rights… dating back to the Norman invasion (Devine right of a class/religious sect to rule).
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Re: Louis XVII
Started watching "Masters of the Air" on our free months trial of "Apple TV" last night ... not too bad either
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Re: Louis XVII
Ilkley claret wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:46 pmWill keep an eye out but given you are in your 70s shouldn’t you be shopping in Booths or M&S! That’s where I go!
Plenty of clarets I’ve come across in Ilkley/Burley.
For my birthday the other year there were 25 of us in Ilkley Wetherspoons.
The King Louis theme came from my daughter who is a massive claret and came up with the VK comparison during a recent history lesson!
Get yourself to a West Yorkshire Clarets gathering. You’d be very welcome. UTC
John (Menston)
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Re: Louis XVII
Yes must admit I have followed where you lot meet up. You were in central Leeds no long back and I was planning on popping in but something came up. I can usually be found in The Hermit.
Re: Louis XVII
'The middling sort'. I'd never heard of this phrase until last year when I read a book on the history of a school founded in the Elizabethan times. It was used incessantly without explanation for many pages until I thought I'd finally grasped what it meant. I'm not sure I actually did!
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ab ... 177A14E7A2
https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ab ... 177A14E7A2
Re: Louis XVII
Judging from the vocabulary of the article, I would presume that the "middling sort" is used because the author thinks too many plebs would understand what he meant by "middle class".
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Re: Louis XVII
Back there in four weeks!Ilkley claret wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2024 3:15 pmYes must admit I have followed where you lot meet up. You were in central Leeds no long back and I was planning on popping in but something came up. I can usually be found in The Hermit.
Re: Louis XVII
Thought we had signed a new number 17, probably from Italy, as he uses Roman numerals.