ARTICLE: Substitute Cullen comes out on top in Palace defeat

[ClaretTony]

Man of the match & player ratings result v Palace and player of the month result

See link
https://www.uptheclarets.com/substitute ... ace-defeat

[StayingDown4Ever]

Embarrassing that four players managed to score under 4/10.

[FCBurnley]

Embarrassing that a sun who only plays for two thirds of the game and rarely starts is our mom !

[Sunny Cornwall]

Cullen was the fulcrum around which we played last year. Little pattern of play since he’s been left out

[Goliath]

Cullen was the fulcrum around which we played last year. Little pattern of play since he’s been left out

Think we were all probably too harsh on him earlier this season. He was woeful but he had little support and it was quite obvious that we were trying to play everything through him, he was just getting completely swamped.
If we continue to use Berge as our main playmaker with Cullen filling Brownhills role as the support artist then it may improve us both defensively and in possession.

[superdimitri]

Think we were all probably too harsh on him earlier this season. He was woeful but he had little support and it was quite obvious that we were trying to play everything through him, he was just getting completely swamped.
If we continue to use Berge as our main playmaker with Cullen filling Brownhills role as the support artist then it may improve us both defensively and in possession.

I don't think so, he was woefully bad just like the others.

A team with our quality can't get away with playing two central midfielders. To be able to do that in this league you either need defensive wingers +good defenders too (Dyche style), or you need two very good midfielders that compliment eachother...think Leicester City prime Drinkwater and Kante or Aston Villa Luiz and McGinn.
It doesn't really matter who we play if we play 442 and if we play with 3 central midfielders, we lack a 'Destroyer' type midfielder anyway. Cullen coming back in isn't going to solve a thing.

Cullen and Berge are good with the ball, and bad without. At least in the Prem where Cullen just doesn't have the physical attributes needed.
Brownhill has the physicality but lacks the technical nous. He is good at pressing high up the pitch but doesn't have the positioning to defend well.

I think this is why we tend to do better with Gudmundsson in the side, as he's so good at tracking back and adding much needed help defensively.

Most of us are crying out for Kompany to play 3 in midfield but I can see why he doesn't. We don't have the type of players that work well in that system. Only one that may help us play that way would be Massengo but it's pretty clear Kompany et al don't think he's good enough or he'd already be starting.

[Goliath]

I don't think so, he was woefully bad just like the others.

A team with our quality can't get away with playing two central midfielders. To be able to do that in this league you either need defensive wingers +good defenders too (Dyche style), or you need two very good midfielders that compliment eachother...think Leicester City prime Drinkwater and Kante or Aston Villa Luiz and McGinn.
It doesn't really matter who we play if we play 442 and if we play with 3 central midfielders, we lack a 'Destroyer' type midfielder anyway. Cullen coming back in isn't going to solve a thing.

Cullen and Berge are good with the ball, and bad without. At least in the Prem where Cullen just doesn't have the physical attributes needed.
Brownhill has the physicality but lacks the technical nous. He is good at pressing high up the pitch but doesn't have the positioning to defend well.

I think this is why we tend to do better with Gudmundsson in the side, as he's so good at tracking back and adding much needed help defensively.

Most of us are crying out for Kompany to play 3 in midfield but I can see why he doesn't. We don't have the type of players that work well in that system. Only one that may help us play that way would be Massengo but it's pretty clear Kompany et al don't think he's good enough or he'd already be starting.

Agreed about Jbg, think he has to play every weekbwhen we play this system. If we put an extra man in midfield it may allow us to play Benson whichbis whay id be doing now. Cork, Cullen, Berge is a solid trio at this level

[superdimitri]

Agreed about Jbg, think he has to play every weekbwhen we play this system. If we put an extra man in midfield it may allow us to play Benson whichbis whay id be doing now. Cork, Cullen, Berge is a solid trio at this level

Cullen and Cork in a 4231 maybe. To be honest I forgot about Cork.
I would have doubts about Cork having the physically needed and together with Cullen they may end up trying to occupy the same space... But things can't really get much worse so anything is worth a go.

A big feature of the Kompany style was Cullen dropping back into defence to let the right back and left centre back bomb forward but that's such an attacking strategy you just can't do it in this league. At least not with our players.

Kompany needs to do what Dyche also struggled with and have the ability to play different systems and players against different opponents. Under Dyche we mainly struggled to break down teams in attack but we were excellent against better opposition playing the the likes of Airfield and Boyd. Dyche needed to let the chains go a bit in games where we had a better chance of doing well.

Kompany needs to play more defensively away from home and against better teams and play attacking against the select few teams we have good odds against. At the moment Cullen is very much an attacking choice imo. Despite playing further back he doesn't offer enough in defence to use him in most of our games.

[Claret3495]

I should imagine he'll get another game on Sunday, with Brownhill being suspended?

[jojomk1]

We should be playing a midfield 5
Cullen holding with Cork and Berge further forward
The two wide men can then support the striker with Cork and Berge moving out slightly wider when they do

[warksclaret]

I know some on here dont rate Cullen, but he was definitely one of our better players v Palace, and my player of the season last year. He is also a regular for his country. I would play him with Berge, with Cullen sitting deeper. Cullen gets round the pitch more than Cork, whose legs have gone (he struggled in the Championship). VK failed badly in not bringing in Lakonga , particularly as he knew him, and a slap in the face that he preferred Luton. Alternatively should have brought in a midfielder with strong athleticism and defending skills

[ClaretTony]

Cullen and Cork in a 42To be honest I forgot about Cork.

So it appears have the manager and his staff

[Nonayforever]

I honestly think VK isn't playing Cork in case he actually plays well then he would be obliged ( by the fans ) to extend his contract, when he clearly doesn't want him at the club.
I get the impression VK doesn't like to be challenged.

[Goliath]

I honestly think VK isn't playing Cork in case he actually plays well then he would be obliged ( by the fans ) to extend his contract, when he clearly doesn't want him at the club.
I get the impression VK doesn't like to be challenged.

Cork seems to get on well with Kompany and is part of his leadership group so this is made up ********

[claretspice]

Cullen and Cork in a 4231 maybe. To be honest I forgot about Cork.
I would have doubts about Cork having the physically needed and together with Cullen they may end up trying to occupy the same space... But things can't really get much worse so anything is worth a go.

A big feature of the Kompany style was Cullen dropping back into defence to let the right back and left centre back bomb forward but that's such an attacking strategy you just can't do it in this league. At least not with our players.

Kompany needs to do what Dyche also struggled with and have the ability to play different systems and players against different opponents. Under Dyche we mainly struggled to break down teams in attack but we were excellent against better opposition playing the the likes of Airfield and Boyd. Dyche needed to let the chains go a bit in games where we had a better chance of doing well.

Kompany needs to play more defensively away from home and against better teams and play attacking against the select few teams we have good odds against. At the moment Cullen is very much an attacking choice imo. Despite playing further back he doesn't offer enough in defence to use him in most of our games.

I'm not sure we have started once this season with what appears to me to be our best midfield unit: Cullen and Berge playing as a double pivot, and Brownhill playing in a box to box role ahead of them with licence to lead our pressing and support the attack but also provide cover to the full backs on occasion (i.e. the role he played for a chunk of last season before VK decided we were good enough that we didn't need a double pivot). We've seen Berge and Brownhill play as a two, and we started the season with Cullen and Brownhill in the two, but I don't think we've combined the 3 together in the way that best plays to their strengths of all 3. I assume that has been because of the desire to fit Amdouni into a sort of "number 10" role but to my mind it's been to the detriment of the team structure.

I don't think the issue with Cork particularly extends beyond the fact he's 34, 35 in June. I suspect the view is that at this level he's not got the legs to start regularly. However, there's no doubt in my mind that a couple of times when we've been holding leads, most obviously against Luton, his experience absolutely should have been on the pitch earlier.

[bfcjg]

Last season we had Muric getting the ball to Cullen rapidly giving him time to pick a pass and open up play,this season we have the ponderous Trafford taking an age to play the ball.out giving the opposition time to mark up, Cullen didn't become a bad player overnight, the tactics did though.

[superdimitri]

I'm not sure we have started once this season with what appears to me to be our best midfield unit: Cullen and Berge playing as a double pivot, and Brownhill playing in a box to box role ahead of them with licence to lead our pressing and support the attack but also provide cover to the full backs on occasion (i.e. the role he played for a chunk of last season before VK decided we were good enough that we didn't need a double pivot). We've seen Berge and Brownhill play as a two, and we started the season with Cullen and Brownhill in the two, but I don't think we've combined the 3 together in the way that best plays to their strengths of all 3. I assume that has been because of the desire to fit Amdouni into a sort of "number 10" role but to my mind it's been to the detriment of the team structure.

I don't think the issue with Cork particularly extends beyond the fact he's 34, 35 in June. I suspect the view is that at this level he's not got the legs to start regularly. However, there's no doubt in my mind that a couple of times when we've been holding leads, most obviously against Luton, his experience absolutely should have been on the pitch earlier.

Whilst playing that way may help us in possession, despite having an extra man in defensive midfield I'm not sure it will help us out of possession simply because Berge and Cullen are not particularly suited to breaking up play.

Not a problem when you can keep the ball in most games as we did in the championship but a big problem when you can't in the Premier League.

I think we need a cheap version of Rodri or Rice to successfully play this way, but as I said before we may as well try it because it can't get any worse.

I think the recent interview with the AFC Bournemouth fan on the TurfCsst podcast was pretty telling. When asked about Kompany he compared his style to Frank at Brentford.

When Brentford were promoted from the championship they were a possession based team but Frank quickly saw it wasn't possible to play that way in the Premier League and he adapted, something Kompany isn't doing.

To a similar extent Howe had success at Bournemouth who were possession based where he had to change the system. Now at Newcastle Howe sets his team up very differently.

Possession based football just doesn't work very well in the Premier League unless you're a top 4 team.

[claretspice]

Last season we had Muric getting the ball to Cullen rapidly giving him time to pick a pass and open up play,this season we have the ponderous Trafford taking an age to play the ball.out giving the opposition time to mark up, Cullen didn't become a bad player overnight, the tactics did though.

Although i'd play him and take Cullen out of the firing line on Sunday, I think the Muric thing is a bit overdone to be honest. Muric improved markedly last season and I was a big fan but he made mistakes in overplaying very similar to the one Trafford made last weekend. It just didn't cost us as often or as badly. He made one at Spurs in the cup when his throw out was (together with the way Amdouni dealt with the ball) culpable for their winning goal. The fact is that the quick pass to Cullen (which didn't always happen, that is a myth) was used more because it was available more because teams weren't as good.

Whilst playing that way may help us in possession, despite having an extra man in defensive midfield I'm not sure it will help us out of possession simply because Berge and Cullen are not particularly suited to breaking up play.

Not a problem when you can keep the ball in most games as we did in the championship but a big problem when you can't in the Premier League.

I think we need a cheap version of Rodri or Rice to successfully play this way, but as I said before we may as well try it because it can't get any worse.

I think the recent interview with the AFC Bournemouth fan on the TurfCsst podcast was pretty telling. When asked about Kompany he compared his style to Frank at Brentford.

When Brentford were promoted from the championship they were a possession based team but Frank quickly saw it wasn't possible to play that way in the Premier League and he adapted, something Kompany isn't doing.

To a similar extent Howe had success at Bournemouth who were possession based where he had to change the system. Now at Newcastle Howe sets his team up very differently.

Possession based football just doesn't work very well in the Premier League unless you're a top 4 team.

I think this is partly true, but I don't think breaking up the play in midfield has been a particular problem for us this season (or at least, it is far from our biggest problem). I think our biggest problem has been the ease with which a less effective press has been overcome and teams have basically bypassed our central midfield area as a result.

What Brentford had when they came up, and which after losing Tella we didn't have, were some dynamic, robust pacey wide forwards (Mbueno etc.) who were willing to work back, could press aggressively but also provide a threat behind - which makes that long ball much more effective, and indeed is the key to making a 3 man midfield work. The biggest difference for us between last season and this is the fact we no longer have Brownhill and Tella (and to a lesser extent, because Foster has done OK when he's played in this regard, Barnes) leading an aggressive press. Pretty much until this time last season when our mastery of the ball became complete, that plus Tella's threat behind was for me the single biggest factor in us dominating teams because it forced teams back and meant we controlled the field. We were never going to do that as comprehensively this season but without that press and pace in transition it's been even more difficult.

[Clive 1960]

Brownhill being out on Sunday no fault of his own we will give Cullen a chance to play a few games as we all know if you usually get sent off you don't come straight back in the team..

[claretcarrot93]

Although i'd play him and take Cullen out of the firing line on Sunday, I think the Muric thing is a bit overdone to be honest. Muric improved markedly last season and I was a big fan but he made mistakes in overplaying very similar to the one Trafford made last weekend. It just didn't cost us as often or as badly. He made one at Spurs in the cup when his throw out was (together with the way Amdouni dealt with the ball) culpable for their winning goal. The fact is that the quick pass to Cullen (which didn't always happen, that is a myth) was used more because it was available more because teams weren't as good.



I think this is partly true, but I don't think breaking up the play in midfield has been a particular problem for us this season (or at least, it is far from our biggest problem). I think our biggest problem has been the ease with which a less effective press has been overcome and teams have basically bypassed our central midfield area as a result.

What Brentford had when they came up, and which after losing Tella we didn't have, were some dynamic, robust pacey wide forwards (Mbueno etc.) who were willing to work back, could press aggressively but also provide a threat behind - which makes that long ball much more effective, and indeed is the key to making a 3 man midfield work. The biggest difference for us between last season and this is the fact we no longer have Brownhill and Tella (and to a lesser extent, because Foster has done OK when he's played in this regard, Barnes) leading an aggressive press. Pretty much until this time last season when our mastery of the ball became complete, that plus Tella's threat behind was for me the single biggest factor in us dominating teams because it forced teams back and meant we controlled the field. We were never going to do that as comprehensively this season but without that press and pace in transition it's been even more difficult.

Trafford takes an age with the ball at his feet then has no power or accuracy. Muric has both. Distribution is night and day.

[ChorltonCharlie]

I'd agree with Spice on Cullen. I've been of the opinion all season that our problems are much more to do with tactics than individuals. Cullen for me was hung out to dry earlier in the season. The box midfield would seem to work well when you're in control of a game, but we didn't have that control. So often in the first few months you'd see us spring into an attacking shape. The ball wouldn't have progressed far enough up the pitch for a full back to have moved infield with Cullen, and when the opposition won the ball he was left like King Canute as teams swarmed over him.

The double pivot is one obvious way you do that, but in a 4-4-1-1 and a more orthodox midfielder (Brownhill) as the the advanced one. It's a shape which we haven't tried this season. I've felt though that there was not much wrong with the set up in the early games. We just needed to go direct more often and avoiding aggressive presses and have the two box to box players applying more of a handbreak and not leaving Cullen isolated. I'd still like to see us end the season like that, and I'd like JBG to be given back his role from the back end of last season. I think Amdouni was identified as the upgrade to JBG, but it didn't work and we seem to do everything we can to accommodate Amdouni, who I do think is a decent player but is very low on confidence. Ramsey would have been the other option, but he looked lost against Fulham playing a similar role, and of course is now out injured. When he returns Ramsey could still be a great option learning the role in the more forgiving Championship.

[karatekid]

Trafford takes an age with the ball at his feet then has no power or accuracy. Muric has both. Distribution is night and day.

Maybe Trafford has been told to wait for the press to try and take those players out of the equation when he knocks it upfield.

[claretspice]

I'd agree with Spice on Cullen. I've been of the opinion all season that our problems are much more to do with tactics than individuals. Cullen for me was hung out to dry earlier in the season. The box midfield would seem to work well when you're in control of a game, but we didn't have that control. So often in the first few months you'd see us spring into an attacking shape. The ball wouldn't have progressed far enough up the pitch for a full back to have moved infield with Cullen, and when the opposition won the ball he was left like King Canute as teams swarmed over him.

The double pivot is one obvious way you do that, but in a 4-4-1-1 and a more orthodox midfielder (Brownhill) as the the advanced one. It's a shape which we haven't tried this season. I've felt though that there was not much wrong with the set up in the early games. We just needed to go direct more often and avoiding aggressive presses and have the two box to box players applying more of a handbreak and not leaving Cullen isolated. I'd still like to see us end the season like that, and I'd like JBG to be given back his role from the back end of last season. I think Amdouni was identified as the upgrade to JBG, but it didn't work and we seem to do everything we can to accommodate Amdouni, who I do think is a decent player but is very low on confidence. Ramsey would have been the other option, but he looked lost against Fulham playing a similar role, and of course is now out injured. When he returns Ramsey could still be a great option learning the role in the more forgiving Championship.

Agree with all of that but would add that Amdouni (and others) has been caught wanting for the physicality of the league - some adapt, some don't, but it's certainly not unusual for it to take a while. Overall, the importance of wide players who can be as effective without the ball as with it is for me the biggest single thing we've got wrong this season. Once you can get round a team and into a crossing position as easily as teams have against us this season, the defence is always likely to struggle.

Obviously, for Saturday, we don't have the option of Brownhill in the advanced midfield role, and we will miss his athleticism. But I'd like to see us play JBG there, and I'd probably then bring Brunn Larsen in to play a more orthodox right sided role - fitness and form being equal etc..

[Goliath]

I'd agree with Spice on Cullen. I've been of the opinion all season that our problems are much more to do with tactics than individuals. Cullen for me was hung out to dry earlier in the season. The box midfield would seem to work well when you're in control of a game, but we didn't have that control. So often in the first few months you'd see us spring into an attacking shape. The ball wouldn't have progressed far enough up the pitch for a full back to have moved infield with Cullen, and when the opposition won the ball he was left like King Canute as teams swarmed over him.

The double pivot is one obvious way you do that, but in a 4-4-1-1 and a more orthodox midfielder (Brownhill) as the the advanced one. It's a shape which we haven't tried this season. I've felt though that there was not much wrong with the set up in the early games. We just needed to go direct more often and avoiding aggressive presses and have the two box to box players applying more of a handbreak and not leaving Cullen isolated. I'd still like to see us end the season like that, and I'd like JBG to be given back his role from the back end of last season. I think Amdouni was identified as the upgrade to JBG, but it didn't work and we seem to do everything we can to accommodate Amdouni, who I do think is a decent player but is very low on confidence. Ramsey would have been the other option, but he looked lost against Fulham playing a similar role, and of course is now out injured. When he returns Ramsey could still be a great option learning the role in the more forgiving Championship.

Theres an obvious flaw in this plan as well though in Brownhill. He would need to be showing for the ball, getting in the spaces and being able to turn and play forward. He isnt able to do this, he treats the ball like a hot potato which is probably why he has been trying Amdouni there.

The one who can genuinely link the play from that position is Rodriguez but then we obviously lose the pressing if Brownhill and its more of a traditional 442.
Its a shame Ramsey hasnt worked because his skillset suits that role perfectly.

As it is i think we have to resort to a proper 3 man midfield who are all able to receive the ball under pressure and feed the widemen like they did in the last 10 minutes against Palace.
A midfield of Cork Berge and Cullen does that and probably gives Berge more license to drive forward as well. We may also then have the protection behind the right winger which allows us to play Benson over JBG

[claretspice]

Theres an obvious flaw in this plan as well though in Brownhill. He would need to be showing for the ball, getting in the spaces and being able to turn and play forward. He isnt able to do this, he treats the ball like a hot potato which is probably why he has been trying Amdouni there.

The one who can genuinely link the play from that position is Rodriguez but then we obviously lose the pressing if Brownhill and its more of a traditional 442.
Its a shame Ramsey hasnt worked because his skillset suits that role perfectly.

As it is i think we have to resort to a proper 3 man midfield who are all able to receive the ball under pressure and feed the widemen like they did in the last 10 minutes against Palace.
A midfield of Cork Berge and Cullen does that and probably gives Berge more license to drive forward as well. We may also then have the protection behind the right winger which allows us to play Benson over JBG

I think the counterpoint to that is that Brownhill played that role effectively in the Championship last season in a team that was dominating the ball and was also used there by Dyche. Whilst he may not be the most composed in possession - particularly when he's not full of confidence - he's tidy enough when charged with supporting others and playing simple give and go football. He's also good at finding space and his movement is generally one of his strengths, and he carries the ball well on the counter attack. He's not a world beater but he's an unfairly denigrated player at times and through his time at Burnley I don't think he's been helped especially by the fact he's often been asked to sit in a midfield 2, which rarely showcases his athleticism.

[Nonayforever]

We are discussing tactics as though the next game is the 4th or 5rh game of the season.
We have witnessed 26 games of tactical ineptness. There have only been a handful of games where we have competed and looked dangerous, most of them because of Foster.
The root cause of the ineffectiveness is distribution from the goalie and lack of strength in midfield.

[Goliath]

I think the counterpoint to that is that Brownhill played that role effectively in the Championship last season in a team that was dominating the ball and was also used there by Dyche. Whilst he may not be the most composed in possession - particularly when he's not full of confidence - he's tidy enough when charged with supporting others and playing simple give and go football. He's also good at finding space and his movement is generally one of his strengths, and he carries the ball well on the counter attack. He's not a world beater but he's an unfairly denigrated player at times and through his time at Burnley I don't think he's been helped especially by the fact he's often been asked to sit in a midfield 2, which rarely showcases his athleticism.

Hes a very important player for the squad as he as the experience of the Dyche days, which i think is important in keeping a strong hard working core within the squad. However the longer hes in the team the more his limitations show. This has been the case since he joined.
I dont understand your comment about a midfield 2 not showcasing his athleticism. Thats exactly when it should show, he has to cover a hell of a lot of ground in a midfield 4, especially covering for Odoberts questionable work rate.

I also wasn't particularly impressed with him last season, he did ok and his pressing was vital to the team but his technical levels dont even stand out at that level never mind the league above and there in lies the conundrum we have with him.

[claretspice]

Hes a very important player for the squad as he as the experience of the Dyche days, which i think is important in keeping a strong hard working core within the squad. However the longer hes in the team the more his limitations show. This has been the case since he joined.
I dont understand your comment about a midfield 2 not showcasing his athleticism. Thats exactly when it should show, he has to cover a hell of a lot of ground in a midfield 4, especially covering for Odoberts questionable work rate.

I also wasn't particularly impressed with him last season, he did ok and his pressing was vital to the team but his technical levels dont even stand out at that level never mind the league above and there in lies the conundrum we have with him.

He's asked to hold a position as a holding player in a 2, so he doesnt have the scope to get ahead of the ball or make third man runs that would really showcase his athleticism. No player can cover 2 positions defensively in the modern game and that isn't asked of Brownhill in a 2 for that reason, so if you want him to cover Odobert that's precisely why you need a third midfielder.

[ElectroClaret]

We have witnessed 26 games of tactical ineptness.

In a nutshell.

[Goliath]

He's asked to hold a position as a holding player in a 2, so he doesnt have the scope to get ahead of the ball or make third man runs that would really showcase his athleticism. No player can cover 2 positions defensively in the modern game and that isn't asked of Brownhill in a 2 for that reason, so if you want him to cover Odobert that's precisely why you need a third midfielder.

Odobert is incapable of doing the defensive side of his role in a 442 so Brownhill regularly gets dragged over.
Are Brownhills 3rd man runs dangerous enough to make it worth playing him in the 10 role, Im not so sure. I doubt hed ever get more than 3 or 4 goals in a season at this level and he wouldnt get many assists either. So we would be playing him their primarily because he can press. I think what we are showing is we dont have anyone good enough to play in that role.

In my opinion we should have gone in for Lallana as someone with experience who is good on and off the ball and isnt usually first choice for Brighton. He'd have been a good fit.