Mud analytics

[Blondeclaret]

ICF recruitment by all accounts . Not Mud

ISF Actually.

[blatherwickstattoos]

ISF Actually.

Yeah I realised my typo mistake right away. . Any idea as to why we ditched the ISF and jumped in MUD? Seems strange to change a strategy that clearly worked for us the previous summer.

[Blondeclaret]

Yeah I realised my typo mistake right away. . Any idea as to why we ditched the ISF and jumped in MUD? Seems strange to change a strategy that clearly worked for us the previous summer.

The cost probably it’s charged by subscription. Obviously MUD was a cheaper option that and the saving in employees wages was I imagine a considerable amount.

[blatherwickstattoos]

The cost probability, it’s charged by subscription. Obviously MUD was a cheaper option that and the saving in employees wages was I imagine a considerable amount.

It’s come at a great cost. All a learning curve for both the new to football chairman and 37 year old manager I guess.

[Claretnick]

Exactly… maybe Alan pace’s naivety in these areas are actually a catalyst as to to why Vincent kompany is allowed to be both manager and be a director of a business that runs our recruitment for the same club.

OMG
We have heard, you're not happy with the recruitment, the owners, VK and indeed the club...Do you have to keep going on and and on about the ******* issue...

We're all ******* disappointed..

[blatherwickstattoos]

OMG
We have heard, you're not happy with the recruitment, the owners, VK and indeed the club...Do you have to keep going on and and on about the ******* issue...

We're all ******* disappointed..

My advice to you would be just Ignore the thread mate. You know the bit where you don’t have to click on it and read stuff in it. If you just don’t press your finger on the title of the thread , that should work wonders for you.

[Vim Fuego]

OMG
We have heard, you're not happy with the recruitment, the owners, VK and indeed the club...Do you have to keep going on and and on about the ******* issue...

We're all ******* disappointed..

No need to have a pop at him like that mate. Like many, he is only expressing an opinion

[Paul Waine]

I like reading your posts Paul and understand why you mention it, but I'm just not sure his father being a Mormon missionary in Lancs is a related positive. Some may view it as a negative in terms of understanding how a football community clicks

Mormon missionary knocking on doors in Preston, Blackburn, Burnley and Bolton, I'm sure once or twice they may have been told something along the lines of "sorry, can't chat now, I'm going to the match." Don't forget that LDS built their temple just off the M61 near Chorley. The missions must have had some success if it was worthwhile building the largest Mormon temple outside North America.

[Vim Fuego]

Mormon missionary knocking on doors in Preston, Blackburn, Burnley and Bolton, I'm sure once or twice they may have been told something along the lines of "sorry, can't chat now, I'm going to the match." Don't forget that LDS built their temple just off the M61 near Chorley. The missions must have had some success if it was worthwhile building the largest Mormon temple outside North America.

Seems a bit of a reach that ...

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Someone commented earlier in the thread that MUD only became active with us in August 2023. I would love clarification on this tbh. The whole money ball plan that was eluded to in mission to Burnley was definitely at the front of Alan pace and kompanys vision. Maybe to the detriment of the football club in the long run. It’s certainly not the way forward in the toughest league in the world anyway as this season has proven .

The club needs to be able to buy low and sell high to ensure the club is more sustainable and not reliant on mainly Tv money like it was in the past

A majority of clubs want to do this btw, find cheap, develop and sell on

A number of people on here seem to take issue with this business model, but they also don’t have an alternative either

Our wage bill used to account for the absolute majority of the tv money under the old owners, long term that wasn’t sustainable

I’m not arsed if we use Mud Analytics, it has found, and will continue to find, some good players for us, it will also find some duffers, but again all clubs go through this no matter what process they use to scout for players

Our contract with Mud may or may not be tied into the employment of VK as manager, none of us know the details of the contract between the club and Mud

For whatever reason, this season hasn’t gone according to plan, but then again it didn't go to plan last season either because they weren’t expecting promotion lat season

We go down and we do it all over again, hopefully with VK but if it isn’t to be then I trust the board to find a suitable replacement like they did after Dyche

[Paul Waine]

Yeah I realised my typo mistake right away. . Any idea as to why we ditched the ISF and jumped in MUD? Seems strange to change a strategy that clearly worked for us the previous summer.

Searched "ISF" - it stands for Intelligent Sports Framework and is part of Stats Perform - which also owns Opta.

Stats Perform is an American sports analytics/data business.

Pretty clear that, though BFC might have subscribed for accessed to ISF data - just like many other clubs will be, ISF was not running BFC analytics/ recruitment.

MUD has the tag line "Making Unbiased Decisions" on their website. Sign-in needed to access more info.

Training Ground Guru reported on Lee Mooney leaving City in Nov 2019 "to launch a start-up."

https://trainingground.guru/articles/ma ... -six-years

[Paul Waine]

Seems a bit of a reach that ...

You never had a missionary knock at your door, VF?

[Vim Fuego]

Not really. Not for a while at least. And even if i did ... I can't see a related positive in terms of understanding the heartbeat of football community. What I think you are getting at though, is how you think they might think they have tuned in to us

To be clear, I'm not being deliberately argumentative like you get on here. Life is too short for all that. Especially for us non-believers

[JohnMcGreal]

The club needs to be able to buy low and sell high to ensure the club is more sustainable and not reliant on mainly Tv money like it was in the past

A majority of clubs want to do this btw, find cheap, develop and sell on

A number of people on here seem to take issue with this business model, but they also don’t have an alternative either]

I think the main thing people take issue with is that we haven't exactly 'bought low' or 'found cheap'. We've paid pretty hefty fees for a handful of players who currently look a long way from being good enough. The exception is probably Koleosho, who was cheap.

If our current business model is as you describe then I must be missing something, because from where I'm sitting we've seriously overspent on a number of players who we'll most likely be making losses on eventually.

[CoolClaret]

The club needs to be able to buy low and sell high to ensure the club is more sustainable and not reliant on mainly Tv money like it was in the past

A majority of clubs want to do this btw, find cheap, develop and sell on

A number of people on here seem to take issue with this business model, but they also don’t have an alternative either

Our wage bill used to account for the absolute majority of the tv money under the old owners, long term that wasn’t sustainable

I’m not arsed if we use Mud Analytics, it has found, and will continue to find, some good players for us, it will also find some duffers, but again all clubs go through this no matter what process they use to scout for players

Our contract with Mud may or may not be tied into the employment of VK as manager, none of us know the details of the contract between the club and Mud

For whatever reason, this season hasn’t gone according to plan, but then again it didn't go to plan last season either because they weren’t expecting promotion lat season

We go down and we do it all over again, hopefully with VK but if it isn’t to be then I trust the board to find a suitable replacement like they did after Dyche

Big old gulp of the ALK koolaid that!

Nothing wrong with buying young players and developing them - in fact it's smart and it's something we did even with Dychey.

Where it becomes daft is signing 10 a season and sticking them into a team and expecting it to click no problem... or borrowing money to purchase them - but that's fine for ALK because all the risk is on BFC and not themselves. so they can 'afford' to wildly speculate.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think the main thing people take issue with is that we haven't exactly 'bought low' or 'found cheap'. We've paid pretty hefty fees for a handful of players who currently look a long way from being good enough. The exception is probably Koleosho, who was cheap.

If our current business model is as you describe then I must be missing something, because from where I'm sitting we've seriously overspent on a number of players who we'll most likely be making losses on eventually.

The average transfer fee is £25 million

You’re looking at what we pay from an outdated perspective, but you’re not alone in that on here, because a number of people still have this same issue
We aren’t paying huge money when compared to other clubs, we’re paying below average for PL clubs

As for making losses, no, we won’t be

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Big old gulp of the ALK koolaid that!

Nothing wrong with buying young players and developing them - in fact it's smart and it's something we did even with Dychey.

Where it becomes daft is signing 10 a season and sticking them into a team and expecting it to click no problem... or borrowing money to purchase them - but that's fine for ALK because all the risk is on BFC and not themselves. so they can 'afford' to wildly speculate.

No alk koolaid at all, that’s a stupid comment

Yes we signed a lot last summer and history suggested it was high risk and quite probably wouldn’t work

Long term it will pay off

[CoolClaret]

No alk koolaid at all, that’s a stupid comment

Yes we signed a lot last summer and history suggested it was high risk and quite probably wouldn’t work

Long term it will pay off

Not sure how you reconcile your two points there.

[Rileybobs]

What is the issue, Rileybobs? There's one thing we can all be certain of, Alan Pace and all the other ALK directors and the other VSP investors in the club won't have set things up with Vincent Kompany in a way that the club will lose out.

The issue is the conflict of interest that exists from our manager owning the company which providing player analytics which form the primary basis of our transfer decisions. I’ve already given several examples of how this conflict of interest could manifest itself in a negative way on the success of the team so forgive me for not repeating myself.

And we can’t be certain that AP and the other directors and investors will have set things up in a way that the club won’t lose out, I’m surprised you of all people would state that so confidently. Primarily as we don’t know whether ALK’s objectives align with the things we may think are important as fans, which for me is the success of the team on the pitch.

[Vim Fuego]

Yes we signed a lot last summer and history suggested it was high risk and quite probably wouldn’t work

Really I don't like to bicker, but that's a damning statement mate if you are trying to defend things. In an absolutely pivotal season. And it is all on the manager and the recruitment policy.

[JohnMcGreal]

The average transfer fee is £25 million

You’re looking at what we pay from an outdated perspective, but you’re not alone in that on here, because a number of people still have this same issue
We aren’t paying huge money when compared to other clubs, we’re paying below average for PL clubs

As for making losses, no, we won’t be

We've been over this before but I honestly don't know where your confidence comes from on this. I wish I felt it!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Not sure how you reconcile your two points there.

Easy

We’ve signed a number of young players with huge potential who’ve now got PL experience, which will stand them in good stead for the future

Potential suitors won’t be overly fussed about the outcome of our season, they’ll be looking at the stats etc of the players they’re interested in buying
Those same players are on decent length contracts

So we’ll make money on players we sell, even if we go down
I know that goes against the desired narrative on here that we’ll lose money on most of them, but we won’t
Players are very rarely sold at a loss by any club when they’ve got several years left on their contracts

Again, people don’t grasp this sort of stuff and are adamant our players will be flogged cheaply

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Really I don't like to bicker, but that's a damning statement mate if you are trying to defend things. In an absolutely pivotal season. And it is all on the manager and the recruitment policy.

I’m stating a fact, we aren’t the first club to sign a huge number of players in a summer transfer window and won’t be the last either

It’s worth noting that Forest did it the other year and stayed up, maybe there was an idea we could do the same
If we’d done it and kicked on, the none of you would give a toss at the number of players signed let’s be honest about that

[GodIsADeeJay81]

We've been over this before but I honestly don't know where your confidence comes from on this. I wish I felt it!

I’m looking at the facts

We pay below the average rate for PL clubs
We have signed our players up to contracts that are generally 4yrs minimum so they’ll all have at least 3yrs left on them
They’re all young lads who’ll improve with age and experience

Some of you want to be despondent, that’s not my thing

[Rileybobs]

Easy

We’ve signed a number of young players with huge potential who’ve now got PL experience, which will stand them in good stead for the future

Potential suitors won’t be overly fussed about the outcome of our season, they’ll be looking at the stats etc of the players they’re interested in buying
Those same players are on decent length contracts

So we’ll make money on players we sell, even if we go down
I know that goes against the desired narrative on here that we’ll lose money on most of them, but we won’t
Players are very rarely sold at a loss by any club when they’ve got several years left on their contracts

Again, people don’t grasp this sort of stuff and are adamant our players will be flogged cheaply

I think your confidence is wildly misplaced. For a start, we signed players with potential who may have been good enough for the Premier League, now we have players with potential who we know aren’t good enough for the Premier League. There aren’t many teams in the world who can afford to spend 8 figure transfer fees on players, let alone entice them away from a club like ours with a higher salary. Look at the situation with Weghorst, a player with more pedigree than almost all of our current squad.

We’ll no doubt make a return on some players, but equally it looks very likely we’ll have to move players on at a loss.

[boatshed bill]

Easy

We’ve signed a number of young players with huge potential who’ve now got PL experience, which will stand them in good stead for the future

Potential suitors won’t be overly fussed about the outcome of our season, they’ll be looking at the stats etc of the players they’re interested in buying
Those same players are on decent length contracts

So we’ll make money on players we sell, even if we go down
I know that goes against the desired narrative on here that we’ll lose money on most of them, but we won’t
Players are very rarely sold at a loss by any club when they’ve got several years left on their contracts

Again, people don’t grasp this sort of stuff and are adamant our players will be flogged cheaply

I think some (many) are thinking about Tresor, Ramsey and Trafford who were not cheap.
But in most cases the fees we've paid should give us a decent chance of a profit.

[CoolClaret]

Easy

We’ve signed a number of young players with huge potential who’ve now got PL experience, which will stand them in good stead for the future

Potential suitors won’t be overly fussed about the outcome of our season, they’ll be looking at the stats etc of the players they’re interested in buying
Those same players are on decent length contracts

So we’ll make money on players we sell, even if we go down
I know that goes against the desired narrative on here that we’ll lose money on most of them, but we won’t
Players are very rarely sold at a loss by any club when they’ve got several years left on their contracts

Again, people don’t grasp this sort of stuff and are adamant our players will be flogged cheaply

Not saying they'll go for as cheap as some make out but I don't think many will significantly appreciate either.
Who would you sign from our lot as a PL or top team in Europe?

Given that we have borrowed money to finance incomings and our revenue streams are going to be significantly lower next season then we will absolutely have to sell a few - then you need to replace them, so it seems to me like it's just spinning our wheels at best our at worst just kicking the can down the road...

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think some (many) are thinking about Tresor, Ramsey and Trafford who were not cheap.
But in most cases the fees we've paid should give us a decent chance of a profit.

Remind us which English, PL keeper got relegated, sold for a huge profit, then got relegated again and sold for even more money

Tresor was highly rated before he came to us, he will still be highly rated by some in the game who’ll look past this season

Ramsey - still only 21, has played just 525 mins of PL football this season and is now out injured
He will get better but he’s been playing in a team that’s collectively struggling

[blatherwickstattoos]

Some good points made by all the last few posts. We’ve taken a gamble this season . Hopefully we come back stronger and build next season to compete better if we come back up.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think your confidence is wildly misplaced. For a start, we signed players with potential who may have been good enough for the Premier League, now we have players with potential who we know aren’t good enough for the Premier League. There aren’t many teams in the world who can afford to spend 8 figure transfer fees on players, let alone entice them away from a club like ours with a higher salary. Look at the situation with Weghorst, a player with more pedigree than almost all of our current squad.

We’ll no doubt make a return on some players, but equally it looks very likely we’ll have to move players on at a loss.

Very likely we’ll move players on at a loss?
That’s based on what?
Just a feeling?

Not when they’re tied to contracts that are 3-4yrs in length still

We can keep them, develop them further in the championship and come back up

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Not saying they'll go for as cheap as some make out but I don't think many will significantly appreciate either.
Who would you sign from our lot as a PL or top team in Europe?

Given that we have borrowed money to finance incomings and our revenue streams are going to be significantly lower next season then we will absolutely have to sell a few - then you need to replace them, so it seems to me like it's just spinning our wheels at best our at worst just kicking the can down the road...

People are saying losses, they’re very clear/adamant we’ll be forced to sell cheap and lose money on our signings

Given that the club were planning on promotion within 3yrs of being relegated last time, I’d say that financially we should be alright next season if we can turn it around again, because we’ve just had a year of PL money and I’d suggest the wage bill was much lower than our last PL season

[Mansfield claret]

I think your confidence is wildly misplaced. For a start, we signed players with potential who may have been good enough for the Premier League, now we have players with potential who we know aren’t good enough for the Premier League. There aren’t many teams in the world who can afford to spend 8 figure transfer fees on players, let alone entice them away from a club like ours with a higher salary. Look at the situation with Weghorst, a player with more pedigree than almost all of our current squad.

We’ll no doubt make a return on some players, but equally it looks very likely we’ll have to move players on at a loss.

Most clubs, including burnley don't normally sell players at a loss when players have long contracts, that won't change.

[Rileybobs]

Looking at our summer business on Transfermarkt (I know figures aren’t entirely accurate), but if we were to list all of our players this summer for sale I think Koleosho is the only player we would comfortably make a return on. Berge and O’Shea we could probably make a little on.

Obviously, we’ve had a return from a lot of our players in terms of minutes played, so it shouldn’t always be viewed as selling players for profit. We also won’t have to sell all of our players in summer so there may come a point where their value increases. But the PL is the shop window and almost all of these signings have failed show they can go on to better things.

The more I think about it, and cast my mind back to the MTB documentary, the more I think we are reliant on selling a couple of players for very good money every season. This summer’s windfall is looking doubtful - not helped by an injury to Koleosho. It could well be why Kompany has persisted with Amdouni for so long.

[Rileybobs]

Very likely we’ll move players on at a loss?
That’s based on what?
Just a feeling?

Not when they’re tied to contracts that are 3-4yrs in length still

We can keep them, develop them further in the championship and come back up

Obviously just a feeling as, like you, I can’t predict the future. Yet my statements are still said with less certainty than yours.

We already have too many players hence a number being out on loan. We will no doubt need to free up space in the squad for more signings, probably quite a significant number. We will have players who will have no intention of playing for us next season and likely some who have such an agreement written into their contract.

So I think it’s a pretty good feeling.

[Rileybobs]

Most clubs, including burnley don't normally sell players at a loss when players have long contracts, that won't change.

Really? Would you class not being able to sell them for a positive return so repeatedly loaning them out until their contract runs down making a loss?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Obviously just a feeling as, like you, I can’t predict the future. Yet my statements are still said with less certainty than yours.

We already have too many players hence a number being out on loan. We will no doubt need to free up space in the squad for more signings, probably quite a significant number. We will have players who will have no intention of playing for us next season and likely some who have such an agreement written into their contract.

So I think it’s a pretty good feeling.

Clubs buy players and loan them out to help them develop, because sitting on the bench doesn’t do that

Yes there may well be agreements in regards to relegation, but there will be minimum sale fees built into those contracts
Can’t see the club accepting a lesser fee clause

[Rileybobs]

Clubs buy players and loan them out to help them develop, because sitting on the bench doesn’t do that

Yes there may well be agreements in regards to relegation, but there will be minimum sale fees built into those contracts
Can’t see the club accepting a lesser fee clause

So we keep the player and keep loaning them out like we have done with Weghorst. And then finally they move on a permanent transfer at a loss.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So we keep the player and keep loaning them out like we have done with Weghorst. And then finally they move on a permanent transfer at a loss.

Do you know what fees we’re getting/got as part of the loan deals?
We’ve loaned him to 3 clubs so far
Hoffenheim may want to sign him this summer

If they did, that fee plus any loan fees could potentially cover what we paid for him

Do we know what we paid for him?
Transfer deals can include clauses that are activated when the player achieves certain things at a club, like Andre Gray did when here, whereas Gibson didn’t so we only paid around half the reported transfer fee and we potentially recouped most of that when we sold him on

[CoolClaret]

The more I think about it, and cast my mind back to the MTB documentary, the more I think we are reliant on selling a couple of players for very good money every season. This summer’s windfall is looking doubtful - not helped by an injury to Koleosho. It could well be why Kompany has persisted with Amdouni for so long.

This has been a concern of mine with certain players from the off, that more finacial decisions takeover from pure footballing ones, rather than it just being a more natural progression.

If that is the case - then the plan is dead in the water and should be a complete non-starter, IMO.

[Rileybobs]

Do you know what fees we’re getting/got as part of the loan deals?
We’ve loaned him to 3 clubs so far
Hoffenheim may want to sign him this summer

If they did, that fee plus any loan fees could potentially cover what we paid for him

Do we know what we paid for him?
Transfer deals can include clauses that are activated when the player achieves certain things at a club, like Andre Gray did when here, whereas Gibson didn’t so we only paid around half the reported transfer fee and we potentially recouped most of that when we sold him on

Sounds like a great business model. Buy players, if they do well we can sell them at a profit - if they fail we can sell them at a profit. Surprised more people haven’t cottoned on to this no-lose strategy.

[Quickenthetempo]

Very likely we’ll move players on at a loss?
That’s based on what?
Just a feeling?

Not when they’re tied to contracts that are 3-4yrs in length still

We can keep them, develop them further in the championship and come back up

Which clubs do you think will be buying players in the Summer?
Seems all the prem clubs are on the verge of FFP and championship clubs can't afford our players.

[Paul Waine]

The issue is the conflict of interest that exists from our manager owning the company which providing player analytics which form the primary basis of our transfer decisions. I’ve already given several examples of how this conflict of interest could manifest itself in a negative way on the success of the team so forgive me for not repeating myself.

And we can’t be certain that AP and the other directors and investors will have set things up in a way that the club won’t lose out, I’m surprised you of all people would state that so confidently. Primarily as we don’t know whether ALK’s objectives align with the things we may think are important as fans, which for me is the success of the team on the pitch.

Hi Rileybobs, let's find some stuff we can all agree on.

You say that for you it is important that the team is successful on the pitch. We can all agree on that. No fan wants to watch the team they support lose. We can extend that, we were all thrilled at the success of the team last season, 101 points, winning the Championship and gaining promotion back to the Premier League. In the 2015/16 seasons we were all singing "23, 23 undefeated" and again winning the Championship and gaining promotion back to the Premier League. In May 2009 we were all celebrating winning the Championship play-off and gaining promotion to the Premier League for the very first time.

Over the period that Burnley have been in the Premier League, including the 3 relegations and 2 promotions back to the Premier League before December 2020 the value of the club increased very significantly. Barry Kilby, Mike Garlick and John B and the fellow directors bought their shares in Burnley Football Club at modest prices (shares were also awarded f.o.c. to season ticket buyers before the first promotion to encourage the purchase of season tickets - those small shareholders haven't done too badly with their f.o.c. shares, either) and kept the club developing through this period - and saw the value of their shares rise and they sold to the new owners.

My point is that success on the field also leads to success for investors. I'd argue that Alan Pace, ALK and the VSP investors all want the same thing. A successful team on the pitch because that's the way their investments will also be successful and Alan Pace et al will make money. I don't see how there can be any other objectives.

Of course, it's tough to build a successful football team. There are 19 other teams in the Premier League this season and BFC will only avoid relegation if the team can achieve at least 17th position. There are even more teams in the Championship and many of those also want the go at getting into the Premier League. It's very tough to get to the top of the pyramid. It's even tougher, I feel, to stay there, except for the teams who have established their position at the very top of the Premier League and can add to their finances with European tv money.

We can also look at the interests of MUD Analytics - assuming Vincent Kompany and MUD are rewarded for bringing footballers into Burnley that can be sold at a profit plus part of that profit being paid to MUD. Again, success for MUD is their analytics model producing, identifying footballers who can be developed and sold for a profit by Burnley Football Club. There's no profit to share if BFC aren't successful. Maybe MUD could argue that their analytics model has been successful, but Burnley Football Club have failed to make the most of and deliver on field success with the players MUD recommended. But, Vincent Kompany is also Burnley's manager, so Vincent Kompany is on both sides, to be a successful manager and develop successful teams, Burnley have to be a success. He can't be a success with MUD without also being a success with Burnley. I don't see a conflict of interests here, very much the opposite, very much that everyone is aligned in achieving success for Burnley Football Club as a football team on the field of play.

As I said, maybe we can find some things that we can all agree with.

UTC

[CoolClaret]

As I said, maybe we can find some things that we can all agree with.

UTC

Don't disagree with any of that;

I'm more concerned/wondering if there 'novel plan' of trying to solely buy low/sell high on players was an attempt to have financial success even without necessarily having footballing success as an attempt of risk mitigation, ie can still make money for shareholders or whatever even if relegated for example but are totally in over their heads with it all and are seeing that it doesn't mitigate risk but infact adds even more to proceedings.

[blatherwickstattoos]

It’s all conjecture really. But the only worry I think most people have is the idea that kompany may have some bias to players he’s brought in using his own business model . He may want to give them an extra chance to shine when maybe another coach wouldn’t.

[Rileybobs]

Hi Rileybobs, let's find some stuff we can all agree on.

You say that for you it is important that the team is successful on the pitch. We can all agree on that. No fan wants to watch the team they support lose. We can extend that, we were all thrilled at the success of the team last season, 101 points, winning the Championship and gaining promotion back to the Premier League. In the 2015/16 seasons we were all singing "23, 23 undefeated" and again winning the Championship and gaining promotion back to the Premier League. In May 2009 we were all celebrating winning the Championship play-off and gaining promotion to the Premier League for the very first time.

Over the period that Burnley have been in the Premier League, including the 3 relegations and 2 promotions back to the Premier League before December 2020 the value of the club increased very significantly. Barry Kilby, Mike Garlick and John B and the fellow directors bought their shares in Burnley Football Club at modest prices (shares were also awarded f.o.c. to season ticket buyers before the first promotion to encourage the purchase of season tickets - those small shareholders haven't done too badly with their f.o.c. shares, either) and kept the club developing through this period - and saw the value of their shares rise and they sold to the new owners.

My point is that success on the field also leads to success for investors. I'd argue that Alan Pace, ALK and the VSP investors all want the same thing. A successful team on the pitch because that's the way their investments will also be successful and Alan Pace et al will make money. I don't see how there can be any other objectives.

Of course, it's tough to build a successful football team. There are 19 other teams in the Premier League this season and BFC will only avoid relegation if the team can achieve at least 17th position. There are even more teams in the Championship and many of those also want the go at getting into the Premier League. It's very tough to get to the top of the pyramid. It's even tougher, I feel, to stay there, except for the teams who have established their position at the very top of the Premier League and can add to their finances with European tv money.

We can also look at the interests of MUD Analytics - assuming Vincent Kompany and MUD are rewarded for bringing footballers into Burnley that can be sold at a profit plus part of that profit being paid to MUD. Again, success for MUD is their analytics model producing, identifying footballers who can be developed and sold for a profit by Burnley Football Club. There's no profit to share if BFC aren't successful. Maybe MUD could argue that their analytics model has been successful, but Burnley Football Club have failed to make the most of and deliver on field success with the players MUD recommended. But, Vincent Kompany is also Burnley's manager, so Vincent Kompany is on both sides, to be a successful manager and develop successful teams, Burnley have to be a success. He can't be a success with MUD without also being a success with Burnley. I don't see a conflict of interests here, very much the opposite, very much that everyone is aligned in achieving success for Burnley Football Club as a football team on the field of play.

As I said, maybe we can find some things that we can all agree with.

UTC

A couple of points, Paul.

There is more than one way for club to be successful in the short term as a business, one is success on the pitch and continued PL revenue, the other is trading players. This was explained by VK to AP in the MTB documentary. Successfully trading players is helped by the on-pitch success of the team, but not wholly reliant on it. For example, Amdouni could have scored 10 goals this season and we would still have been relegated. He may have attracted interest from another PL club and been sold for a very healthy return.

We don’t know if ALK’s business model is reliant on us having on-pitch success as they speculated so little when buying the club.

[Rileybobs]

It’s all conjecture really. But the only worry I think most people have is the idea that kompany may have some bias to players he’s brought in using his own business model . He may want to give them an extra chance to shine when maybe another coach wouldn’t.

It’s pretty obvious really. Not sure why some people are ignoring it. I’m not saying that this is what Kompany is actually doing but the above example illustrates a clear conflict of interest.

[NewClaret]

It’s all conjecture really. But the only worry I think most people have is the idea that kompany may have some bias to players he’s brought in using his own business model . He may want to give them an extra chance to shine when maybe another coach wouldn’t.

Hard to explain his treatment of Muric, Benson, Zaroury, Tresor, Ramsey, Massengo, etc etc - all of whom were presumably acquired using this method - while playing the likes of Brownhill over Cullen, Charlie when fit all season, starting Roberts over Vitinho early season, JBG over a number of his signings this year and last, etc. Tony also corrected me on how many times he played Cork and Barnes played last season too, when he had Foster benched and Obafemi available.

I think he just picks who he thinks is most likely to win him games, which is the only way he’ll build his reputation and develop his career. If he does that he stands to earn way more as an elite coach than some hypothetical commission ever would.

It’s crazy to think he’d detriment his whole career, reputation and earning potential for some for some recruitment company he’s probably a minority holder in.

[Theivley Pike]

Do you know what fees we’re getting/got as part of the loan deals?
We’ve loaned him to 3 clubs so far
Hoffenheim may want to sign him this summer

If they did, that fee plus any loan fees could potentially cover what we paid for him

Do we know what we paid for him?
Transfer deals can include clauses that are activated when the player achieves certain things at a club, like Andre Gray did when here, whereas Gibson didn’t so we only paid around half the reported transfer fee and we potentially recouped most of that when we sold him on

Isn’t he out of contract? if so we’ll only get the loan fees and he’ll walk for free.

[IanMcL]

I have been looking into MUD abd done some analysing.

Dirt 95% Water 5%

[blatherwickstattoos]

Hard to explain his treatment of Muric, Benson, Zaroury, Tresor, Ramsey, Massengo, etc etc - all of whom were presumably acquired using this method - while playing the likes of Brownhill over Cullen, Charlie when fit all season, starting Roberts over Vitinho early season, JBG over a number of his signings this year and last, etc. Tony also corrected me on how many times he played Cork and Barnes played last season too, when he had Foster benched and Obafemi available.

I think he just picks who he thinks is most likely to win him games, which is the only way he’ll build his reputation and develop his career. If he does that he stands to earn way more as an elite coach than some hypothetical commission ever would.

It’s crazy to think he’d detriment his whole career, reputation and earning potential for some for some recruitment company he’s probably a minority holder in.

The new business model (mud) was only started to be used the summer just gone (August 23) apparently