Unpopular opinions

[beddie]

Never stood a chance for Evans though, perplexed you might be, but a choice between burnley or man utd would have been a no brainer for him

I don’t think though at the time he became available there were any offers for him, wasn’t the Man U offer very late towards the start of the season, hence I thought we might move quickly.

[Nori1958]

I don’t think though at the time he became available there were any offers for him, wasn’t the Man U offer very late towards the start of the season, hence I thought we might move quickly.

I've just looked at one transfer site which says he signed on 18th July... How accurate that is I don't know, but if it is, it was quite early in the window. He will have known before then what his options were.

[Jakubclaret]

If you never make the enquiries to start with it stands to reason you'll never make the signings.

[beddie]

I've just looked at one transfer site which says he signed on 18th July... How accurate that is I don't know, but if it is, it was quite early in the window. He will have known before then what his options were.

I guess that must be right then. I thought I’d heard he had not had any offers but that doesn’t appear to be the case from what you’ve found out.

[beeholeclaret]

A good thread this. I’ve enjoyed reading the opinions shared on here even though I’m not in agreement with them all. The absence of vitriolic senseless arguments has helped.

I think the lack of experience on the field has been crucial and after injuries led to constant changes the young lads have suffered from a dip in confidence. To prosper in this league all things have to be in your favour. I thought things were coming together pre Christmas when we almost won at Brighton and then beat Fulham away. The manager has made some strange decisions and also the match officials have been poor and robbed us of points against Forest and Luton which could well have kept us in contention for a place outside the bottom 3.

I just hope VK and his management team can give their heads a collective wobble and carefully sift out the best / worst to be competitive in the Championship next season.

[Boss Hogg]

Iam not sure Barkley was ever mentioned as an option for us, I don't think it would have been a popular signing at the time, Iam sure Drinkwater would have had a mention or two.

Has Townsend really been any better than what we have? I don't know his stats but he's never stood out in the few games I've seen.

Think you are clutching at straws to try and justify your position. Townsend would have offered more than Tresor and Ramsey combined and clearly Barkley would have. Has Rob Edwards done a better job in building a team than VK with much lower resources ? A resounding yes.

[Nori1958]

Think you are clutching at straws to try and justify your position. Townsend would have offered more than Tresor and Ramsey combined and clearly Barkley would have. Has Rob Edwards done a better job in building a team than VK with much lower resources ? A resounding yes.

What is my position?
Not clutching at any straws
Was Barkley ever an option?
What has been townsends input been, like I said I don't know his stats, but hasnt impressed me when I've seen him

[Nori1958]

What is my position?
Not clutching at any straws
Was Barkley ever an option?
What has been townsends input been, like I said I don't know his stats, but hasnt impressed me when I've seen him

I've just checked townsends stats

1 goal
2 assists

[Jakubclaret]

As a substitute most games for the balance of fairness.

[Nori1958]

As a substitute most games for the balance of fairness.

So not even 1st choice

[Jakubclaret]

So not even 1st choice

He doesn't have to be they aren't doing so bad without him. Townsend would have only played a similar role for us as redmond, well before he got injured. Townsend was a wage until the season ended & a option the question is would he have been a better option.

[Nori1958]

He doesn't have to be they aren't doing so bad without him. Townsend would have only played a similar role for us as redmond, well before he got injured. Townsend was a wage until the season ended & a option the question is would he have been a better option.

I think it was Koleosho who was signed instead, so that was the better deal
Nothing in it for me between Redmond and townsend, so nothing lost there

[Jakubclaret]

I think it was Koleosho who was signed instead, so that was the better deal
Nothing in it for me between Redmond and townsend, so nothing lost there

It's difficult to compare between them all. I can remember the big fuss when we was in for Townsend all the baloney about fitness issues & previous injuries & to top it off he's stayed fit & the 2 you have mentioned have been crocked.

[bumba]

I've just checked townsends stats

1 goal
2 assists

Not bad when you consider Benson, Zaroury, Redmond, Gudmundsson, Koleosho, Tresor and Bruun Larsson only have 3 goals and 3 assists between them

[superdimitri]

Those pointing out Lutons relative success are missing the point I made in the OP. Playing the brand of football they do it is easier to have more success with a lower pedigree of players.

It's a lot harder to recruit players who have grit, determination and endeavor who also are strong technically. Most of those players are playing for more reputable sides.

A short term philosophy of playing a rigid system works great but it won't benefit Luton in the long term. If they did manage to stay up it will only be a matter of time until they are relegated again.

Kompany thought we would be able to control games better in this league so he almost completely negated how we would perform off the ball. The mistakes we make are natural given the way we play but the difference has been our inability to control games and out score those mistakes.

He tried to change the system to be more pragmatic by going to a 442 but it just didn't suit the players we were using. We would almost be better off trying to play the way we did earlier on and sticking to the same principles.

[CoolClaret]

Those pointing out Lutons relative success are missing the point I made in the OP. Playing the brand of football they do it is easier to have more success with a lower pedigree of players.

It's a lot harder to recruit players who have grit, determination and endeavor who also are strong technically. Most of those players are playing for more reputable sides.

A short term philosophy of playing a rigid system works great but it won't benefit Luton in the long term. If they did manage to stay up it will only be a matter of time until they are relegated again.

No I think you're missing the point by lumping Luton in with some sort of dinosaur long ball side which couldn't be further from the truth - who had 62% of the ball when we played at Turf Moor?...

Your second point is textbook conjecture - of course they'd get relegated again, sides like Leeds/West Ham/Newcastle/Sunderland have been relegated numerous times in the past 20 years, it's going to happen to teams, especially those the size of Luton.

This rationalisation has become a sort of 'defence mechanism' to justify our poor performance, as if consistently losing matches, actually showing signs of regression on the pitch and signing any young player across Europe that is in our price range is the only path to long-term success

We had six straight seasons in the PL and totally transformed the club with a different approach, that did also play some good stuff at times.

It's not the only feasible approach but you cannot possibly come to the conclusions you do based on what Luton and BFC are doing right now.

[Wile E Coyote]

no doubt VK is the right man for the job.
painful to watch him field the post match nonsense for the media, but he was brought in for a reason .
we just failed this time around, we cant compete, but we will come August.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Agree that VK is the right man for the job. The jury is always out after a relegation, as it was with Dyche, but they need a year to try to bounce back. If they do they have redeemed themselves.

A lot of sensible remarks on this thread, which is welcome, but I do take issue with the “talented individuals not a team” insinuation in the mind of a few posters. I could just about (but disagree) see that logic for right back, the number 10, and left wing. The rest, no. I think it belittles all the work done in training. When we get it to click we look fabulous and that can only be done as a team (the final ball or finish has been the lacking thing here).

The bit we should remember (and this is on VK’s door really for bringing is too many) is how many are young. Take Wilson Odobert. Couple of years ago scoring for fun in Paris SG U-19s. Moves to Troyes, first taste of “grown up football”, played 1700 minutes at a far lower level, wasn’t intended to start many games this season, but with 3 goals and 2 assists in 1100 minutes that is a good debut season for that age. The disappointment was big injuries or illnesses to 2 of our front 4, and a first choice CB. I suppose in playing achievements I expected a bit more from Amdouni given his record - he was the established player, but it was a big step up nonetheless, if he stays, a big if, he may kick on.

So overall I think “events, dear boy, events” have caught up with us, and we have been 50% unlucky (injuries and the 12 points lost due to bad officials), 40% poor and 10% good. Next season we need it more like 10%, 10%, 80%.

[superdimitri]

No I think you're missing the point by lumping Luton in with some sort of dinosaur long ball side which couldn't be further from the truth - who had 62% of the ball when we played at Turf Moor?...

Your second point is textbook conjecture - of course they'd get relegated again, sides like Leeds/West Ham/Newcastle/Sunderland have been relegated numerous times in the past 20 years, it's going to happen to teams, especially those the size of Luton.

This rationalisation has become a sort of 'defence mechanism' to justify our poor performance, as if consistently losing matches, actually showing signs of regression on the pitch and signing any young player across Europe that is in our price range is the only path to long-term success

We had six straight seasons in the PL and totally transformed the club with a different approach, that did also play some good stuff at times.

It's not the only feasible approach but you cannot possibly come to the conclusions you do based on what Luton and BFC are doing right now.

I didn't make any references towards either type of football. That was you, not me. I simply stated the obvious, that it's harder to recruit players that have the qualities to play in our system than it is with Lutons.

I didn't even make the comparison to begin with, it was a reaction of other people's opinions in this thread that ignore what's written in my OP. It's a pretty common thing on here, lots of people posting without much reading.

I really enjoyed our football under Dyche and I have nothing against the way Luton play either. The very reason it's harder to successfully recruit for the way Kompany wants us to play has been part of our downfall this season. But if you insist on adding bias and wild assumptions rather than a meaningful discussion then that's on you bud.

[CoolClaret]

I didn't make any references towards either type of football. That was you, not me. I simply stated the obvious, that it's harder to recruit players that have the qualities to play in our system than it is with Lutons.

I mean you kinda did by referring to their 'brand' of football which is attempting to categorise them a bit - I certainly think they play a better brand than often given credit for -

If you're asserting that playing a more 'progressive' / 'expansive' style is harder to recruit for then I'd somewhat agree, but even if true, then it's surely a
sign that we should probably have a style/system where we easily recruit players for, no?

But again, this is a bit Top Trumps for me, I think if any manager thinks you can plonk a brand new side of young players with little experience playing together in the PL and expect it to gel then it's naive at best, pure idiocy at worst.

I didn't even make the comparison to begin with, it was a reaction of other people's opinions in this thread that ignore what's written in my OP. It's a pretty common thing on here, lots of people posting without much reading.

You referenced Luton in your OP and suggested that we did need a big rebuild to compete, well we did have a big rebuild (which many at the time thought was bizarre) and it flat out hasn't worked - 13 points is utterly shambolic for approaching mid March.

I really enjoyed our football under Dyche and I have nothing against the way Luton play either. The very reason it's harder to successfully recruit for the way Kompany wants us to play has been part of our downfall this season. But if you insist on adding bias and wild assumptions rather than a meaningful discussion then that's on you bud.

Not sure where you got bias and wild assumptions from me in my retort -

I'd argue that the downfall has been multifaceted, can't think of much there has been right, from recruitment to man management to in game decision making etc..

So I'm not sure what's giving you and others confidence that VK is the guy we need if we ever want to remain in the top flight for more than just a season at a time.

Even some of the signings he has made and keeps playing for this supposed 'progressive' style I just do not understand:
Traff, O'Shea, Esteve all terrible passers of the football and do not look comfortable receiving it in close spaces under pressure - so why make them play a system which isn't working? There's genuinely better options on the bench for that.

[superdimitri]

I mean you kinda did by referring to their 'brand' of football which is attempting to categorise them a bit - I certainly think they play a better brand than often given credit for -

If you're asserting that playing a more 'progressive' / 'expansive' style is harder to recruit for then I'd somewhat agree, but even if true, then it's surely a
sign that we should probably have a style/system where we easily recruit players for, no?

But again, this is a bit Top Trumps for me, I think if any manager thinks you can plonk a brand new side of young players with little experience playing together in the PL and expect it to gel then it's naive at best, pure idiocy at worst.



You referenced Luton in your OP and suggested that we did need a big rebuild to compete, well we did have a big rebuild (which many at the time thought was bizarre) and it flat out hasn't worked - 13 points is utterly shambolic for approaching mid March.



Not sure where you got bias and wild assumptions from me in my retort -

I'd argue that the downfall has been multifaceted, can't think of much there has been right, from recruitment to man management to in game decision making etc..

So I'm not sure what's giving you and others confidence that VK is the guy we need if we ever want to remain in the top flight for more than just a season at a time.

Even some of the signings he has made and keeps playing for this supposed 'progressive' style I just do not understand:
Traff, O'Shea, Esteve all terrible passers of the football and do not look comfortable receiving it in close spaces under pressure - so why make them play a system which isn't working? There's genuinely better options on the bench for that.

You got it, the system he wants us to play makes it hard to recruit talent for. Very few teams have been able to stay up whilst playing possession based football. Swansea and Bournemouth come to mind, but most teams have had to change how they play.

Getting promoted the Dyche way was a lot easier. It's possible to build a team solid defensively with players of lesser quality, making the step up a lot easier. We were able to see championship players (or even worse sometimes) become premier league players with our success. The gap was still big, but it was possible to change a few players rather than an entire squad to stay up. Staying up isn't about how many players you do, or don't change. It's about how many you change to accomodate the way you want to play when making that huge step up. That's why its actually a benefit to get promoted playing a style similar to Luton than it is to our own.

With a more attacking and possession based approach this just isn't possible. Players like Benson are not going to be afforded the same space and respect they got in the championship. He needed to replace them, and I can see why he did. It didn't work out, but I do not buy for one second the argument that last years team would have done better.

Kompany realised after a few games the severe lack in quality and tried to change the system, hence the move to 442 and less of a possession focussed approach. Cullen was dropped who is basically the heartbeat of the style of play Kompany wants to play and he realised we needed sometimes to mix our play a bit more. The problem by then was none of the players we had recruited for the original system suited the new system. Instead, we drafted players like Brownhill and Taylor back into the side who added some much needed solidarity off the ball.

So this is why I also mention with the way things have turned out, we may have just been better not changing systems at all and trying to continuously play to our new players strengths rather than changing the system in fear we can't take the game to better opposition.

Originally Kompany believed we would have the quality to outplay enough teams at home to get enough results to stay up. He vastly overestimated the quality required but soon tried to change things to have a slightly more pragmatic approach.

I think these are all things he will learn from. He's still young for a manager with a lot to learn and you don't suddenly become a good manager without making mistakes first.

Bias/Wild assumptions - First, you assumed because I mentioned our style of play being harder to recruit for you assumed this was an attack on how I think Luton play. Not at all, I respect every approach teams take. I was simply making a point.

Second, you assume that I am completely and utterly pro Kompany, without accepting his mistakes. Not at all. Sure, I don't believe in sacking him. But that doesn't mean I don't also recognize the things he has done wrong. I am just stating some points which I believe to be valid, and add some balance to the discussion which otherwise seems to be one extreme to the other on here. It's clear the brand of football he wants us to play and its also clear to me that playing that way was going to be much harder in the Premier League than before. If we can stick with him, and it I do believe it will benefit us in the long term and help establish us as a solid premier league team again. Get it right and we can start to control games more rather than nicking 1-0s here and there hoping we get lucky enough to stay up each year.

As for O'Shea, what he lacks is composure and decision making, not passing ability. He has made a few great passes this season, especially the one he made to setup Bruun Larsen's goal vs Sheffield United.

[dandeclaret]

Agree that VK is the right man for the job. The jury is always out after a relegation, as it was with Dyche, but they need a year to try to bounce back. If they do they have redeemed themselves.

A lot of sensible remarks on this thread, which is welcome, but I do take issue with the “talented individuals not a team” insinuation in the mind of a few posters. I could just about (but disagree) see that logic for right back, the number 10, and left wing. The rest, no. I think it belittles all the work done in training. When we get it to click we look fabulous and that can only be done as a team (the final ball or finish has been the lacking thing here).

The bit we should remember (and this is on VK’s door really for bringing is too many) is how many are young. Take Wilson Odobert. Couple of years ago scoring for fun in Paris SG U-19s. Moves to Troyes, first taste of “grown up football”, played 1700 minutes at a far lower level, wasn’t intended to start many games this season, but with 3 goals and 2 assists in 1100 minutes that is a good debut season for that age. The disappointment was big injuries or illnesses to 2 of our front 4, and a first choice CB. I suppose in playing achievements I expected a bit more from Amdouni given his record - he was the established player, but it was a big step up nonetheless, if he stays, a big if, he may kick on.

So overall I think “events, dear boy, events” have caught up with us, and we have been 50% unlucky (injuries and the 12 points lost due to bad officials), 40% poor and 10% good. Next season we need it more like 10%, 10%, 80%.

50% luck? I can’t agree remotely with that. Even if it is, there’s always the old adage of “You make your own luck”

[CoolClaret]

***superdimitri's content***

I think you're making a bit of a simplistic assumption - the team we had last year would be better than 13 points at this stage of the season playing that way - surely?

The whole point about making wholesale changes to the team is about how it affects cohesion and things that aren't easy to quantify - it's stuff like the centre halves not knowing each others game / responsibility properly leading to goals that we've conceded like Kluivert's for Bournemouth at the weekend, players just not being 'in tune' with each other - remember it did take us 10-15 games to really gel in the Championship!

No one in the right mind is suggesting that Benson would be the same player in the PL that he was in the Champ, more that he still has something unique to offer and is a lot more than a left foot shot top bins, even though that's what his ridiculous ability is being reduced to now.

The change to a 4-4-2 was just as much about being possession based in all honesty - our tempo and buildup has dropped even lower - offered some defensive stability just because fullbacks etc weren't coming into midfield and we aren't being caught out of position as much.

Fair enough on the rest re Kompany.

On O'Shea specifically - yes that was a lovely pass vs Sheff U and his long balls are ok - I meant more in the typical skills needed to play out consistently, trapping/passing ability in tighter spaces, that's what I don't see him have... although somewhat ironic that you bring up a bit of skill that he did against Sheff U who are are worse outfit than they were last season in the Champ, whilst citing that players like Benson needed replacing.

[JohnMcGreal]

All teams have their own cases of bad luck. It's part of football and can be pretty much discounted completely.

We are where we are because as a club we've made a complete hash of things and the teams we put out every week are miles away from being good enough. The results have naturally followed.

The season has been a total disaster.

[TsarBomba]

All teams have their own cases of bad luck. It's part of football and can be pretty much discounted completely.

We are where we are because as a club we've made a complete hash of things and the teams we put out every week are miles away from being good enough. The results have naturally followed.

The season has been a total disaster.

Completely agree on your first point. Every team has VAR decisions go against them, and we’ve also got away with a few. We can’t keep using VAR as a convenient excuse.

For me, the priority this summer is to instil the ‘legs, hearts, minds’ back into the club. To survive in this league again, we need the ‘strong jaw’ back, and the ability to hang on in games and ride out difficult spells. At the moment, we concede, heads drop, and we capitulate.

[superdimitri]

who are are worse outfit than they were last season in the Champ

That doesn't make much sense. Like the posts on here stating we are worse now than last season.
You would need both teams to play with each squad in each league to know.

I think you underestimate the gap in quality between leagues. Because we (or utd) are doing so bad this year doesn't mean we had better teams last year. It means the step up is massive and we haven't been able to show enough quality.

O'Shea's passing and control is good for a centre half. It's his composure and judgement that lets him down.

And yes, Kompany obviously believed at first that players like Benson weren't good enough. If he didn't, he wouldn't have signed so many wingers. Hopefully we hang on to some of the ones we signed to see how well they do in championship together with Benson.

[StayingDown4Ever]

Reading this thread makes out like we’re the only side in the league who have had a few injuries and a handful of debatable decisions go against us.

The fact is we’ve been pony all season and absolutely miles off it.

If you saw Sheffield United the other night against Arsenal - just remember - we have the same amount of points as they do - and we might finish below them.

[Hapag Lloyd]

Reading this thread makes out like we’re the only side in the league who have had a few injuries and a handful of debatable decisions go against us.

The fact is we’ve been pony all season and absolutely miles off it.

If you saw Sheffield United the other night against Arsenal - just remember - we have the same amount of points as they do - and we might finish below them.

Not like you to remind us how poor we’ve been this season.

[Turftalkers mentor]

I agree largely with the OP .
I think James Trafford is the better keeper needs to stop getting shoved around too easily but that will come
Muric played in a lower league last year behind a mostly the same defence line up all season and was better protected and even he had a shaky start to the season. Wether Kompany should have taken Trafford out of the firing line for the lads own morale is a decision for the Manager. So I think on balance Trafford is the better keeper.
Some of the rest though they may have potential may prove good enough others who in my view include O'Shea ,Tresor, Roberts and another couple probably not .
Sander Berge should stand out head and shoulders above everyone one else , however his too often five yard square passes , too easily knocked off the ball ,means he does not influence the games in the way he should, presumably had he been such a sort after player he wouldnt have been at the Turf but one of the established Premier League clubs for the price we got him for.
Up front when everyone is fit we should not have a problem.

[Ric_C]

Maybe not an unpopular opinion, but here goes:

I thin VK needs to evolve the style next season in preparation for the premier league. This maybe perceived as an arrogant thing to do, but for me if the end goal of the 4 year plan is to become a decent premier league outfit, he needs to ditch the ultra possession style and evolve it into something more of a Brentford or Fulham or Wolves. Even last season there were so many games where we just passed the ball to death, and then won the game in the last 15-20 as the opposition were shattered. Good fun at the time, but it is not sustainable for the league above. He also needs to learn that not every buy needs to be some up and coming raw diamond that he can mould into a sellable asset. The only way we will thrive ultimately is to have a good mix of youth and experience.

I hope our signings next season have experience in the english league, and a few more games under their belt, so they can augment our younger players.

[StayingDown4Ever]

Not like you to remind us how poor we’ve been this season.

I know it’s an “Unpopular Opinion” thread but I find it staggering some people still try and defend what we’ve produced - a THIRTEEN point haul from TWENTY SEVEN games!

[CoolClaret]

That doesn't make much sense. Like the posts on here stating we are worse now than last season.
You would need both teams to play with each squad in each league to know.

I think you underestimate the gap in quality between leagues. Because we (or utd) are doing so bad this year doesn't mean we had better teams last year. It means the step up is massive and we haven't been able to show enough quality.

O'Shea's passing and control is good for a centre half. It's his composure and judgement that lets him down.

And yes, Kompany obviously believed at first that players like Benson weren't good enough. If he didn't, he wouldn't have signed so many wingers. Hopefully we hang on to some of the ones we signed to see how well they do in championship together with Benson.

It does make sense - they sold their best two players literally a week before starting the season - that's a huge spanner in the work for any manager to deal with.

Certainly not underestimating the gap in quality; just feel a manager with a bit more about them navigates this season better than we have.

O'Shea's short range passing is poor, he's been found out loads of times with poorly weighted passes and struggles passing through midfield. His crossfield balls are fine.

[Casper2]

I know it’s an “Unpopular Opinion” thread but I find it staggering some people still try and defend what we’ve produced - a THIRTEEN point haul from TWENTY SEVEN games!

It’s the emperors new clothes scenario

[StayingDown4Ever]

Maybe not an unpopular opinion, but here goes:

I thin VK needs to evolve the style next season in preparation for the premier league. This maybe perceived as an arrogant thing to do, but for me if the end goal of the 4 year plan is to become a decent premier league outfit, he needs to ditch the ultra possession style and evolve it into something more of a Brentford or Fulham or Wolves. Even last season there were so many games where we just passed the ball to death, and then won the game in the last 15-20 as the opposition were shattered. Good fun at the time, but it is not sustainable for the league above. He also needs to learn that not every buy needs to be some up and coming raw diamond that he can mould into a sellable asset. The only way we will thrive ultimately is to have a good mix of youth and experience.

I hope our signings next season have experience in the english league, and a few more games under their belt, so they can augment our younger players.

That should go in the Sensible Opinion thread.

[Jamesy]

I know it’s an “Unpopular Opinion” thread but I find it staggering some people still try and defend what we’ve produced - a THIRTEEN point haul from TWENTY SEVEN games!

I don’t care if it’s unpopular to say it or not but we have been utter shite this season.

Sheffield United made no attempt to be anything other than shite. We spent a small fortune and are just as shite.
We may as well have given Nick Leeson the £110 million and told him to go and sign 15 players. I don’t think he would have done any worse.

As the saying goes, you can’t polish a turd. However, some of our optimists are trying to be popular by rolling the turd in glitter.

[Dark Cloud]

I know it’s an “Unpopular Opinion” thread but I find it staggering some people still try and defend what we’ve produced - a THIRTEEN point haul from TWENTY SEVEN games!

You forgot to add "after spending in excess of £100 million".

[StayingDown4Ever]

You forgot to add "after spending in excess of £100 million".

Don’t remind us!

[CrosspoolClarets]

50% luck? I can’t agree remotely with that. Even if it is, there’s always the old adage of “You make your own luck”

Sorry for the delay.

Foster having a severe mental health problem, then surgery, plus Koleosho missing most of the season, Beyer missing most of the season, and having a huge number of points taken off by officials, some being 3 point swings (Forest, Luton and West Ham where a stonewall penalty would have put us 2-0 up) and some being 1 or 2 points (Bournemouth away, Villa away).

I’d say that is outrageously bad luck, without which I reckon we would be on 30+ points and nearly safe (despite being rocky at the back with iffy goalkeeper distribution and aerial domination).

[CrosspoolClarets]

Sorry for the delay.

Foster having a severe mental health problem, then surgery, plus Koleosho missing most of the season, Beyer missing most of the season, and having a huge number of points taken off by officials, some being 3 point swings (Forest, Luton and West Ham where a stonewall penalty would have put us 2-0 up) and some being 1 or 2 points (Bournemouth away, Villa away).

I’d say that is outrageously bad luck, without which I reckon we would be on 30+ points and nearly safe (despite being rocky at the back with iffy goalkeeper distribution and aerial domination).

Just add to this (can’t edit, arrrghh) that I don’t subscribe to this “all teams have bad luck”. That is saying that Wilder is wrong in his assertion that refs subconsciously favour the teams likely to stay up. That is a persuasive assertion. It is also saying all sides have the same injuries - had Everton been within McNeil and Calvert Lewin for most of the season they would have struggled more, or Tarky / Branthwaite. Same with Forest and Gibbs White / Awonyi. Those players miss a bit, our key ones have missed huge.

Now the one side who has also had bad luck - Luton. If they drop, as I expect, they will point to Lockyer etc being ill. I will feel for them if so.

[boyyanno]

Sorry for the delay.

Foster having a severe mental health problem, then surgery, plus Koleosho missing most of the season, Beyer missing most of the season, and having a huge number of points taken off by officials, some being 3 point swings (Forest, Luton and West Ham where a stonewall penalty would have put us 2-0 up) and some being 1 or 2 points (Bournemouth away, Villa away).

I’d say that is outrageously bad luck, without which I reckon we would be on 30+ points and nearly safe (despite being rocky at the back with iffy goalkeeper distribution and aerial domination).

With the greatest of respect but I could acknowledge we'd been unlucky if we signed 4 fit strikers all good enough for this level and then they all got freak injuries and couldn't play.

But when you go into a PL season with one forward of the quality required, (ignoring anything that was known about his injury/illness) its not exactly bad luck is it- it's poor planning.

[Theivley Pike]

Sorry but I don’t think we’ve been any different to the other 19 clubs,Forest had more dodgy decision against them in the first couple of months of the season than we’ve had all season,and they were robbed again last week when Tierney gave the ball back to Liverpool.,I’m sure if you look at a league table without VAR we wouldn’t be any nearer being safer than we are now.

[Theivley Pike]

I’ve just checked and after the 3rd week in Feb Sheff Utd would have the same points ,we would have 2 more,and Luton would have 1 more.

[fidelcastro]

I’ve just checked and after the 3rd week in Feb Sheff Utd would have the same points ,we would have 2 more,and Luton would have 1 more.

Aye, but we've been soooooo unlucky!!!

[Vegas Claret]

I know it’s an “Unpopular Opinion” thread but I find it staggering some people still try and defend what we’ve produced - a THIRTEEN point haul from TWENTY SEVEN games!

he's not defending it, he is taking the **** out of you for mentioning it all the time - it's not like any of us aren't aware of how bobbins we have been this season

[Dark Cloud]

1. I'd be absolutely amazed if our manager (or any manager in his position: 13 points from 26 games and just 3 wins) hasn't been to his chairman at some point and offered his resignation. You'd have to have huge balls not to at least have offered, even if it was refused and even if you were fairly confident it would get refused before you even went in!
2. We passed the point where sacking VK, despite him clearly struggling with the"learning curve", was going to make any difference whatsoever ages and ages ago, probably straight after the opening fixture. Bringing in Pep wouldn't keep this squad up because they were never, ever good enough. I like him anyway so I'm happy to give him another shot.
3. Dyche had a reputation for somewhat attritional football, but he was a defender by trade and he knew that especially for clubs like ours, priority number one HAS to be making it really, really hard for the opposition to score against you, no matter how stupefying that can become. After that you can always nick summut at the other end. Kompany was also a defender and judging from his playing career a miles better one than Dyche, but he's never embraced this when it should be bleeding obvious!

[Theivley Pike]

1. I'd be absolutely amazed if our manager (or any manager in his position: 13 points from 26 games and just 3 wins) hasn't been to his chairman at some point and offered his resignation. You'd have to have huge balls not to at least have offered, even if it was refused and even if you were fairly confident it would get refused before you even went in!
2. We passed the point where sacking VK, despite him clearly struggling with the"learning curve", was going to make any difference whatsoever ages and ages ago, probably straight after the opening fixture. Bringing in Pep wouldn't keep this squad up because they were never, ever good enough. I like him anyway so I'm happy to give him another shot.
3. Dyche had a reputation for somewhat attritional football, but he was a defender by trade and he knew that especially for clubs like ours, priority number one HAS to be making it really, really hard for the opposition to score against you, no matter how stupefying that can become. After that you can always nick summut at the other end. Kompany was also a defender and judging from his playing career a miles better one than Dyche, but he's never embraced this when it should be bleeding obvious!

I’m not saying Kompany wasn’t anything but a top defender,but sometimes being in the right place at the right time helps,as an example take John Stones who for ages was an accident waiting to happen but Peps stuck with him and he’s now one of the best,if VK had gone into a struggling side he may never have achieved the success he had,take Ekdal and AAD they came into a side beating everyone before them and looked brilliant ,this season against better opposition they’ve looked dodgy .

[boyyanno]

1. I'd be absolutely amazed if our manager (or any manager in his position: 13 points from 26 games and just 3 wins) hasn't been to his chairman at some point and offered his resignation. You'd have to have huge balls not to at least have offered, even if it was refused and even if you were fairly confident it would get refused before you even went in!
2. We passed the point where sacking VK, despite him clearly struggling with the"learning curve", was going to make any difference whatsoever ages and ages ago, probably straight after the opening fixture. Bringing in Pep wouldn't keep this squad up because they were never, ever good enough. I like him anyway so I'm happy to give him another shot.
3. Dyche had a reputation for somewhat attritional football, but he was a defender by trade and he knew that especially for clubs like ours, priority number one HAS to be making it really, really hard for the opposition to score against you, no matter how stupefying that can become. After that you can always nick summut at the other end. Kompany was also a defender and judging from his playing career a miles better one than Dyche, but he's never embraced this when it should be bleeding obvious!

Not a chance he has offered his resignation and nor should he in my opinion. Regardless of where you stand on Kompany he clearly believes in what he's doing or he wouldn't be doing it.

Kompany has been a proven winner on the pitch and off it throughout his life, I'd be amazed if he had offered to resign just because things are going badly- I personally think that's a good thing regardless of how I think he's doing right now.

[boatshed bill]

Sorry but I don’t think we’ve been any different to the other 19 clubs,Forest had more dodgy decision against them in the first couple of months of the season than we’ve had all season,and they were robbed again last week when Tierney gave the ball back to Liverpool.,I’m sure if you look at a league table without VAR we wouldn’t be any nearer being safer than we are now.

"These thing even themselves out" we often see this getting wheeled out.
The thing is that points we've been robbed of, Forest and Luton, are different to giving away a dodgy penalty against the top 6. It's not just points in question, it has an affect on morale.
And as for Villa, we should never have lost that game.

[Bosscat]

Face tattoos, and tattoos visible while wearing a long sleeve shirt should be illegal

(Im aware this makes me sound like Tory McBoomer)

you said it ZC

[dougcollins]

And as for gloves- one hand removed for a first offence.

Player gets to choose.