Tresor

[claptrappers_union]

Mostly agree but I think you're wrong on Foster. Young promising striker who we signed for about €11/12m, surely some profit in that - how much profit is debatable, but I think we make some on him eventually.

As callous as it sounds, and business is business, buying clubs might consider other alternatives than investing in a player with public mental health issues, especially when you're looking at outlaying £20m+ (presuming that's his pricetag). For the club to make any reasonable profit, they will have to create a PR campaign claiming that he is mentally fit and healthy and scoring many, many goals.

For other clubs to consider a bid, he'll have to be pretty much an ever-present and score at least 20 goals next season.

[jlup1980]

Not quite following this, are you saying Premier League sides shouldn't sign players from the Belgium League as the Championship is rated tougher ?

Not exactly, but kind of I suppose. I think you can afford to take a risk on one or two stand out performers from lower quality leagues, but most of our signings following promotion were this type of player, and these were being added to a squad without huge Premier League experience in the first place.

Even Zeki Amdouni, who was clearly a stand out performer in his domestic league and Europe last season, plied his trade in a league ranked 18th in the world (ranked as a lesser competition than the MLS and Scottish Premiership no less).

It just feels like we threw a handful of darts in the hope a few would land, but they haven't, and when you analyse why they've struggled it becomes more and more obvious.

If any of Tresor, Amdouni, Trafford, Ramsey, Koleosho, Odobert were integrated into a team like West Ham, Brighton, Wolves I suspect they would have done quite well, but expecting to build a whole team around them was naïve to say the least.

We've gone from ultimate pragmatism with Dyche, who was signing too many players at the wrong end of their career, to the polar opposite with Kompany. The sweet spot, as we saw last season, is somewhere in the middle. Hopefully that's the big learning for Kompany and Pace this season.

[ClaretPete001]

The reality is that VK hasn't rated him enough to play him this season. If you want an explanation of why it's because in the one or two games he has started he hasn't been effective enough tracking back but that's just my opinion. Apparently, he was terrific for 43 minutes against Fulham before being subbed off but clearly that hasn't persuaded VK. Only VK and his team know the real reason.

He may be ok in the Championship but who knows and anyway we have decent wingers at Championship level - so what's the point?

It seems bizarre to me why fans who are trying to explain why the manager doesn't play him are fickle and those who think he is good enough for the Championship, a league he has never played in, are somehow making rational points based upon evidence.

There are so many logic defying argument son here it is befuddling. The manager doesn't pick him not fickle Burnley fans all we can do is try to explain why!

And apart from 43 genius like minutes away to Fulham it seems self-evident.

[Silkyskills1]

For other clubs to consider a bid, he'll have to be pretty much an ever-present and score at least 20 goals next season.

Neither of which is likely to happen.

[JohnMcGreal]

Yet you can’t name one poster that said such nonsense

I just didn't feel the need to dig individual posters out. But it's definitely been claimed on this board, numerous times.

[claptrappers_union]

Neither of which is likely to happen.

Hence, he is on my list of players we have signed for ridiculous amounts of money.

I'm sure Foster was open about his depression before he moved to Burnley (though I might be wrong there - but I'm sure the clubs announcement that he was taking a break didn't come much as a surprise, but I can't find the original source to why I thought that).

Anyway, my point remains - he'll have to be amazing next season if we want to recoup anything from his transfer fee.

[KRBFC]

Anyway, my point remains - he'll have to be amazing next season if we want to recoup anything from his transfer fee.

Anything?

I’m sure there’s several clubs willing to pay us the £8m we paid for him.

[claptrappers_union]

OK, anything above what we paid.

[Anonymous Claret]

I just didn't feel the need to dig individual posters out. But it's definitely been claimed on this board, numerous times.

If any posters have said that they are being completely unrealistic in their claims. I am guessing that ALK know that they will not make money on every investment (player signed) but probably expect to make profits on 60-70% of their buys. The concerning thing at the moment is that none of their larger investments look likely to yield a decent profit if any profit at all.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yet you can’t name one poster that said such nonsense

I don’t think we’ll lose money on any of them

They’re all worth at least what we paid, most are worth more

Only Darko is a doubt but he was ill and is now rebuilding his career out on loan so we should get our money back easy enough

[Jamesy]

I don’t think we’ll lose money on any of them

They’re all worth at least what we paid, most are worth more

Only Darko is a doubt but he was ill and is now rebuilding his career out on loan so we should get our money back easy enough

Cloud cuckoo land. We will struggle to recoup anything like our outlay on these players.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Cloud cuckoo land. We will struggle to recoup anything like our outlay on these players.

Most teams only lose money on a player when they’re near the end of their contract or the player has been injured for the majority of their stay, or in the case of someone like Drinkwater just fall away

It’s extremely rare a player is bought and sold at a loss a year later

I assume you’ve got a list of examples to prove me wrong though

[Vim Fuego]

Alot of our recruitment has been a disaster apart from loans

Including Tresor, we will be lucky to get our money back

Not only that, the 'pull' of VK has been damaged by the way he has treated players. The way he uses then discards is all a bit worrying for future squad morale

[boatshed bill]

Some of you need to remember that this is a football club not a retail outlet.
We earn money through the workforce.

[boyyanno]

Most teams only lose money on a player when they’re near the end of their contract or the player has been injured for the majority of their stay, or in the case of someone like Drinkwater just fall away

It’s extremely rare a player is bought and sold at a loss a year later

I assume you’ve got a list of examples to prove me wrong though

I mean you're absolutely wrong- Saints and Orsic as a recent example? Klassen at Everton? Di Maria at United? But why is it that you've moved the goalposts to within a year? You've made your opinion clear, you don't think we'll lose money on anyone period.

Even KRBFC who is the most staunch supporter of this plan and regime thinks its bonkers.

Weird that all clubs haven't cottoned on to the fact you can just keep buying players and moving them on for profit or money back isn't it.

[claretspice]

I think there is a good player in Tresor and it may well be that he's someone who, if he is here next season (and I have to say the fact he's been so absent since Christmas and now describes himself as a "ghost" does make me wonder if he's below the threshold for the permanent move to be mandatory), makes a real impact in the second tier.

However, he's clearly struggled with the intensity of the league. His defensive work at times has been lacking for intensity (which is not necessarily the same as effort - it might be, but it might just be that he's not used to having to work so hard off the ball and that requires an adaptation) and he's certainly been guilty of wanting too much time on the ball at times.

More fundamentally, I think his challenges are best set in a wider context. I still cannot for the life of me imagine how we thought Tresor, Amdouni (for whom the previous paragraph might equally have been written) and Odobert (who has stepped up better as an attacking threat but has been equally anonymous defensively) would fit into the same team (particularly a team for which 16th was always going to be a great outcome), and yet on some reports we've committed to spending well north of £40m on the 3 of them.

The reality is that had any one of those 3 gone into a team with a really solid base, plenty of aggression and physicality and a bit more experience/understanding of what the Premier League entails, they might well have made the transition easier and quicker (although it is worth noting that Steven Defour took pretty much a season, and he was seemingly a more robust type in the first place and walked into exactly that dressing room). But trying to integrate 3 players of that ilk at the same time, in a team otherwise so short of leadership and premier league experience was suicide. There are some good players and good characters/potential leaders in there and I do think they're trying, but they're so short on experience and knowledge of the premier league, and so unfamiliar with being dressing room leaders, that I just don't think there was any chance of creating the sort of resilient, demanding culture that you need to survive.

[Big Vinny K]

Most teams only lose money on a player when they’re near the end of their contract or the player has been injured for the majority of their stay, or in the case of someone like Drinkwater just fall away

It’s extremely rare a player is bought and sold at a loss a year later

I assume you’ve got a list of examples to prove me wrong though

Is this a serious point you are making ?

There’s loads of examples of teams losing money on players - just look at some of the players Brighton were buying 4 or 5 years ago and the where they ended up going and for how much.
Look at some of the West Ham signings - the 2 Italian players they bought were sold quicker than you make Spaghetti Bol…..at a huge loss.
Loads of examples at most clubs who have been in the PL - it’s the nature of the beast.

As for Burnley not losing money on the players we have bought….especially the ones last summer. Not really sure the basis of such a view. If you pay £15m to £20m for players who have looked massively out of their depth or hardly played in the PL then if (and it’s a big if) you do manage to offload them to an inferior league there is little to no chance you are recouping what you have paid. Why would you ?

[Jamesy]

Most teams only lose money on a player when they’re near the end of their contract or the player has been injured for the majority of their stay, or in the case of someone like Drinkwater just fall away

It’s extremely rare a player is bought and sold at a loss a year later

I assume you’ve got a list of examples to prove me wrong though

I don’t need to give you a list of examples. I can see with my own eyes how poor these signings have been. Additionally, the ones warming the bench like the ineffectual Tresor ain’t going to be rising in value any time soon.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I think there is a good player in Tresor and it may well be that he's someone who, if he is here next season (and I have to say the fact he's been so absent since Christmas and now describes himself as a "ghost" does make me wonder if he's below the threshold for the permanent move to be mandatory), makes a real impact in the second tier.

However, he's clearly struggled with the intensity of the league. His defensive work at times has been lacking for intensity (which is not necessarily the same as effort - it might be, but it might just be that he's not used to having to work so hard off the ball and that requires an adaptation) and he's certainly been guilty of wanting too much time on the ball at times.

More fundamentally, I think his challenges are best set in a wider context. I still cannot for the life of me imagine how we thought Tresor, Amdouni (for whom the previous paragraph might equally have been written) and Odobert (who has stepped up better as an attacking threat but has been equally anonymous defensively) would fit into the same team (particularly a team for which 16th was always going to be a great outcome), and yet on some reports we've committed to spending well north of £40m on the 3 of them.

The reality is that had any one of those 3 gone into a team with a really solid base, plenty of aggression and physicality and a bit more experience/understanding of what the Premier League entails, they might well have made the transition easier and quicker (although it is worth noting that Steven Defour took pretty much a season, and he was seemingly a more robust type in the first place and walked into exactly that dressing room). But trying to integrate 3 players of that ilk at the same time, in a team otherwise so short of leadership and premier league experience was suicide. There are some good players and good characters/potential leaders in there and I do think they're trying, but they're so short on experience and knowledge of the premier league, and so unfamiliar with being dressing room leaders, that I just don't think there was any chance of creating the sort of resilient, demanding culture that you need to survive.

Very good post but I’m unsure about this Odobert stepping up better as an attacking threat. He has done great for a 18/19 year old but Tresor was dropped in, stupidly I think, against all the top teams, I think only Fulham and Brentford weren’t one of the big 6 in games where he played 40+ minutes. It seems so hard to judge him, given that in those two other games, one we won, the other the whole team was rank. Liverpool and Man Utd he was good, Chelsea he was stuck on the right.

So I don’t disagree about what you say about defence, nor about it seeming he is off, but I do think given a fair crack he could have had 5 goals and 5 assists to help us up the table, more than the youngsters on the left, especially given the deal ball prowess and our deficiencies in that area. One does have to ponder if the loan / buy arrangement and thus potential return on investment has affected team selection from quite an early stage.

[Nori1958]

Is this a serious point you are making ?

There’s loads of examples of teams losing money on players - just look at some of the players Brighton were buying 4 or 5 years ago and the where they ended up going and for how much.
Look at some of the West Ham signings - the 2 Italian players they bought were sold quicker than you make Spaghetti Bol…..at a huge loss.
Loads of examples at most clubs who have been in the PL - it’s the nature of the beast.

As for Burnley not losing money on the players we have bought….especially the ones last summer. Not really sure the basis of such a view. If you pay £15m to £20m for players who have looked massively out of their depth or hardly played in the PL then if (and it’s a big if) you do manage to offload them to an inferior league there is little to no chance you are recouping what you have paid. Why would you ?

That might be a fair assumption had we actually paid 20m for any player last summer

[Goliath]

To be fair i dont think Odobert was expected to play as big a part as he did. He was brought in as a young talent and didnt even make the match day squad initially.

He then took his chance when he got it and regularly looked really dangerous off the bench and scored in his start v Chelsea. Tresor also got numerous opportunities off the bench and a few starts but never looked close to taking them.

[daveisaclaret]

Very good post but I’m unsure about this Odobert stepping up better as an attacking threat. He has done great for a 18/19 year old but Tresor was dropped in, stupidly I think, against all the top teams, I think only Fulham and Brentford weren’t one of the big 6 in games where he played 40+ minutes. It seems so hard to judge him, given that in those two other games, one we won, the other the whole team was rank. Liverpool and Man Utd he was good, Chelsea he was stuck on the right.

So I don’t disagree about what you say about defence, nor about it seeming he is off, but I do think given a fair crack he could have had 5 goals and 5 assists to help us up the table, more than the youngsters on the left, especially given the deal ball prowess and our deficiencies in that area. One does have to ponder if the loan / buy arrangement and thus potential return on investment has affected team selection from quite an early stage.

Players with at least 5 goals and 5 assists this season in the Premier League: Ollie Watkins, Mohammed Salah, Leon Bailey, Son, Cole Palmer, Bukayo Saka, Julian Alvarez, Anthony Elanga, Phil Foden, Darwin Nunez, James Ward-Prowse, Matheus Cunha, Martin Odegaard, Erling Haaland, Declan Rice, Rodri.

Imagining Tresor in that group is beyond fanciful.

[JarrowClaret]

Players with at least 5 goals and 5 assists this season in the Premier League: Ollie Watkins, Mohammed Salah, Leon Bailey, Son, Cole Palmer, Bukayo Saka, Julian Alvarez, Anthony Elanga, Phil Foden, Darwin Nunez, James Ward-Prowse, Matheus Cunha, Martin Odegaard, Erling Haaland, Declan Rice, Rodri.

Imagining Tresor in that group is beyond fanciful.

Now it is fanciful I agree but reading what Claretspice and now Crosspool have said if he had been used correctly from the start and given the time to play in the correct position etc he could have been a major asset this season. I’m not sure if he would have got 5 and 5 but he wouldn’t be far away anyway all academic now he will go back to his parent Club at the end of the season and move somewhere else and probably show us what we missed out on this season.

[dougcollins]

Now it is fanciful I agree but reading what Claretspice and now Crosspool have said if he had been used correctly from the start and given the time to play in the correct position etc he could have been a major asset this season. I’m not sure if he would have got 5 and 5 but he wouldn’t be far away anyway all academic now he will go back to his parent Club at the end of the season and move somewhere else and probably show us what we missed out on this season.

If he's doing it in a league rated below Championship level, would that still count as showing us what we missed?

[JarrowClaret]

If he's doing it in a league rated below Championship level, would that still count as showing us what we missed?

No idea I will leave that too others to decide, to be honest once he isn’t a Burnley player anymore I won’t care.

[boatshed bill]

Apparently he's been ill recently. Perhaps he's still recovering.

[dougcollins]

Apparently he's been ill recently. Perhaps he's still recovering.

Seems to be a theme in this squad.

[boatshed bill]

Seems to be a theme in this squad.

Yes, maybe adjusting to East Lancs

[CrosspoolClarets]

Players with at least 5 goals and 5 assists this season in the Premier League: Ollie Watkins, Mohammed Salah, Leon Bailey, Son, Cole Palmer, Bukayo Saka, Julian Alvarez, Anthony Elanga, Phil Foden, Darwin Nunez, James Ward-Prowse, Matheus Cunha, Martin Odegaard, Erling Haaland, Declan Rice, Rodri.

Imagining Tresor in that group is beyond fanciful.

A better comparison would be someone like Pascal Gross at BHA who got 9 goals and 8 assists last season and is far from a top player. This season we still have over a quarter to go.

I look at some of the chances our wide players get and we just cry out for a finisher. We also need someone to fizz in a dead ball. Not playing the ones we had who are proven to be able to do that feels a waste. Personally I don’t give a hoot if they track back like Scottie Arfield in his pomp.

Anyway, it’s too late now. No way VK makes any dramatic changes.

[South West Claret.]

Anyone else fall asleep when our Vincent starts another story

[boatshed bill]

Anyone else fall asleep when our Vincent starts another story

"anyone else", so you fell asleep? .... no you didn't!

[Big Vinny K]

That might be a fair assumption had we actually paid 20m for any player last summer

I said “if you pay between £15m and £20m for players”.
It’s not really that difficult to understand the point I am making that if you are spending decent amounts of monies on young inexperienced players (as we clearly have) then it’s going to be very difficult to recoup your monies when they have had poor seasons.

I wouldn’t get too hung up on the exact numbers - finances aren’t exactly your strong point either !