Arijanet Muric

[Dark Cloud]

Trafford has come in for a lot of flack this season, rightly or wrongly, but I think most would agree he will develop into a quality goalkeeper. He started the season as our number one, aged 20. He turned 21 last October. To even be considered in the PL at that age you need to have something about you. As a comparison...

Nick Pope was playing in the Conference Premier with Cambridge Utd when he was 20. He followed that up with loan spells at Aldershot, York and Bury before breaking into the Charlton team in the Championship. He made his PL debut with us aged 25.

Tom Heaton was playing in League One with Swindon Town when he was 20. He bounced around a lot of loans without ever being the no.1 at Royal Antwerp, Cardiff, QPR, Rochdale, Wycombe. He wasn't first choice anywhere until he got to Bristol City when he was 26 and made his PL debut with us aged 28.

Saturday was Muric's PL debut and he's 25. He's had a mediocre career until last season. Various unsuccessful loans at NAC Breda, Forest, Girona, Willem II, followed by a decent season in Turkey with Adana Demirspor. Even Jordan Pickford, who started in the PL as a young lad, was playing in League One with Bradford City at 20, followed by a season in the Championship with PNE before getting his break in the PL.

Goalkeepers take time to develop and clearly go on longer. On the face of it, Trafford is miles ahead of this lot already.

What you say is dead right, especially the factual parts and like pretty much everyone else I've no idea yet how good Trafford will become over the years and I would never openly slag off or boo one of our own players, but as you've pointed out, Heaton and Pope were getting their early experiences and doing their learning curve at Swindon or Bury or wherever in front of 4, 000 fans, not in the glare of the PL with millions watching on TV every week and behind a team that was always going to find it extremely tough in the higher league. It's not Trafford's fault, but as an experienced PL player himself, VK should have allowed Trafford to develop skowly and carefully, away from the spotlight as the way he's gone about it has been detrimental not just to Trafford, but to Kompany himself who hasn't done himself any favours with it and more importantly the team.

[StayingDown4Ever]

The final few games was like watching a boxing match where you knew he’d had enough and keeping him out there could actually cause some serious harm.

Vincent was like the trainer who wouldn’t throw the towel in.

[Billyblah]

Made Kompany look foolish. Massive performance.

We were playing against ten men for the bulk of the game but you wouldn't have known it. Brentford were unlucky in not being awarded a penalty. We scraped a win.

Some big saves from Muric just as there have been big saves from Trafford previously.

Time to give Trafford a rest for the sake of his own mental health. He's picked the ball out of the net on far too many occasions. It's a Championship standard defence.

[CoolClaret]

Trafford has come in for a lot of flack this season, rightly or wrongly, but I think most would agree he will develop into a quality goalkeeper. He started the season as our number one, aged 20. He turned 21 last October. To even be considered in the PL at that age you need to have something about you. As a comparison...

Nick Pope was playing in the Conference Premier with Cambridge Utd when he was 20. He followed that up with loan spells at Aldershot, York and Bury before breaking into the Charlton team in the Championship. He made his PL debut with us aged 25.

Tom Heaton was playing in League One with Swindon Town when he was 20. He bounced around a lot of loans without ever being the no.1 at Royal Antwerp, Cardiff, QPR, Rochdale, Wycombe. He wasn't first choice anywhere until he got to Bristol City when he was 26 and made his PL debut with us aged 28.

Saturday was Muric's PL debut and he's 25. He's had a mediocre career until last season. Various unsuccessful loans at NAC Breda, Forest, Girona, Willem II, followed by a decent season in Turkey with Adana Demirspor. Even Jordan Pickford, who started in the PL as a young lad, was playing in League One with Bradford City at 20, followed by a season in the Championship with PNE before getting his break in the PL.

Goalkeepers take time to develop and clearly go on longer. On the face of it, Trafford is miles ahead of this lot already.

This thread was started just to give credit to Muric rather than a comp but alas -

Progression isn't nowhere near as linear or as simple as you're trying to suggest. For every example you're trying to show being young and kicking on there's ample that never did or late bloomers that slipped through the cracks.

Popey clearly slipped through the cracks as a goalkeeper and won't have been receiving anywhere near the same level of coaching (both quality and number of sessions a week) that Traff has from a young age but the raw aspects/traits of goalkeeping was obviously there.

Jack Butland as an example burst on to the scene even younger than Traff and showed more in his first few seasons in the PL but then fizzled out - recently has somewhat rejuvenated himself with Rangers.

Traff has played more senior games of league football than Muric has done and far more in the English leagues. Last season was Muric's first full season of football in England and quite literally went from strength to strength in front of our eyes.

Can you say the same for Traff? Yes he's still young but there's aspects of his goalkeeping that have major question marks for me and arguably regressed rather than progressed as this season went on.

It is shocking management by VK though; if he is hellbent on Traff as the future then a loan to the Champ and bringing in a vet #2 would have been the smart decision.

[spt_claret]

Trafford has come in for a lot of flack this season, rightly or wrongly, but I think most would agree he will develop into a quality goalkeeper. He started the season as our number one, aged 20. He turned 21 last October. To even be considered in the PL at that age you need to have something about you.
...
Goalkeepers take time to develop and clearly go on longer. On the face of it, Trafford is miles ahead of this lot already.

Just clipping the rest as these are the 2 points I wanted to highlight.I agree that provided he's not over-exposed and not had his development set back by excess pressure, lost confidence, etc. (including the boo boys), Trafford is likely to become a Premier League keeper and you'd expect at least a few England caps before the end.
However, the idea that to get considered/played in the PL at that age means you have to have something about you is, I think, more theory than practice. For every Rooney, Walcott, arguably Wilshere, or even the likes of McNeil, there's also players who play at that age in the Prem and get over exposed then never make it in the Prem or sometimes even the Championship. There's ones who peak at 18-20 then regress- Macheda aged 17 looked like the next Inzaghi or Rossi, didn't happen. Nile Ranger had around a season in the PL at 19 or 20 and never made it regularly above League 1, James Vaughan I appreciate had bad luck with injuries but even as the PL's youngest scorer, he never pushed on.

And player development is nowhere near as linear as Fifa or FM. In Football Manager, players have a set potential stat, your coaches give an abstraction of it, and the more you play a guy the more points they build to reach that potential and grow their attributes. Real football isn't like that. Heaton is a pefect example- in 18 months he went from Championship relegation to a very very capable PL keeper, 18 months later again and he was arguably for a period England's best actual available keeper even if he wasn't favoured, and he was at an age where a lot of the more superficial analysis would say is past development.
Taking it for granted that Trafford will be better than Pope/Muric/whoever one day, or that he will just develop into a top keeper if we just play him enough, could be nearly as harmful for his development as excess negativity. It's complacency mixed with high expectations. I've never seen a young player man-managed the way he has been, even elite prospects like Rooney, Ronaldo, Messi- they all got slowly blooded into their main side even if it began at younger ages than Trafford, they didn't abruptly leap 2 tiers to become a perennial starter. The fact he's been picked so young shouldn't be taken as too great an indication of anything, just like his current level of performance shouldn't be taken too seriously as an indicator of his future ability. We need current ability right now, not potential, which isn't a knock on Trafford, just a statement of fact. And again, I'm thinking he WILL be a PL mainstay keeper one day who I'd expect to get 5-10 caps minimum, maybe more depending on the competition for the shirt.

[Poulton-le-Claret]

We were playing against ten men for the bulk of the game but you wouldn't have known it. Brentford were unlucky in not being awarded a penalty. We scraped a win.

Some big saves from Muric just as there have been big saves from Trafford previously.

Time to give Trafford a rest for the sake of his own mental health. He's picked the ball out of the net on far too many occasions. It's a Championship standard defence.

I think scraped a win is very harsh on us. Their penalty shout is irrelevant since they scored immediately after anyway and to say you wouldn't have known we were against 10 men for the majority is beyond me. We dominated the vast majority of the game and only came under pressure at the end when they threw caution to the wind and launched everything they had at us. We could and should have had the game tucked up earlier but for Fofana's horrendous miss.

[Jamesy]

Without wishing to upset anyone. Quite a few posters are saying Trafford will develop into a top keeper with no real basis behind it.
I hope he does but at the moment it is pure speculation.
I don’t think he would have been the England U21 keeper if he hadn’t been on Man City’s books.
Anyway it was refreshing to see Muric put in a confident reasonably assured performance on Saturday. His rapid distribution was a breath of fresh air and got us on the front foot quickly.
If he is selected against Chelsea he should be subjected to more pressure than he had on Saturday so will be thoroughly tested.
The biggest travesty in all this is that Kompany allowed the glaringly obvious goalkeeping situation to linger on through stubbornness or stupidity and therefore has consigned us to almost certain relegation back to the Championship.
The buck stops with him, not James Trafford.

[The Shire Claret]

I am of the thought and have been all season that the first game against City should have had Muric in nets ....

It's not JT's fault he gets picked and you can see clear as day why he's going to be a great keeper.

Muric is better suited to our style of play and going to the cup games where he played, especially the one at Forrest... you could see why...

--

With all that in mind.... I think we would have won that game on Saturday regardless of the keeper between the sticks ....

UTC

[jlup1980]

This thread was started just to give credit to Muric rather than a comp but alas -

Progression isn't nowhere near as linear or as simple as you're trying to suggest. For every example you're trying to show being young and kicking on there's ample that never did or late bloomers that slipped through the cracks.

Popey clearly slipped through the cracks as a goalkeeper and won't have been receiving anywhere near the same level of coaching (both quality and number of sessions a week) that Traff has from a young age but the raw aspects/traits of goalkeeping was obviously there.

Jack Butland as an example burst on to the scene even younger than Traff and showed more in his first few seasons in the PL but then fizzled out - recently has somewhat rejuvenated himself with Rangers.

Traff has played more senior games of league football than Muric has done and far more in the English leagues. Last season was Muric's first full season of football in England and quite literally went from strength to strength in front of our eyes.

Can you say the same for Traff? Yes he's still young but there's aspects of his goalkeeping that have major question marks for me and arguably regressed rather than progressed as this season went on.

It is shocking management by VK though; if he is hellbent on Traff as the future then a loan to the Champ and bringing in a vet #2 would have been the smart decision.

Muric was superb last season, deserves all the plaudits from the weekend and should be no.1 for the rest of this season. Absolutely he deserves the credit.

There are so many ifs, buts and maybes with all footballers. I'm not saying Trafford will 100% become a top class keeper, just that the trajectory of a goalkeepers career tends to show that they improve with age and experience. There are anomalies, but most top class goalkeepers mature into the role. This season came at least a year too soon for him, but it doesn't mean he won't be ready one day.

Take the Pickford comparison. He did well at Bradford in League One (see Bolton for Trafford), then he was great for PNE in the Championship (I remember his MoM performace at the Turf that season, he was sensational), then he got into the Sunderland team on merit in the PL. He worked up through the leagues, under the radar, to become a PL regular and England International in his early 20's. He is very much the exception to the rule though.

For Trafford to be rushed from League One to the PL was a huge step up and has been too much for him. He should have been on loan at a decent club in the Championship this season. However, if he's coached correctly I see no reason why he can't learn from this year and kick on. You say he's regressed, which I agree with, but he's not the only one (Amdouni for example). It's not easy being in a relegation battle. You can see that the younger players are struggling badly due to losing every week. VK needs to take the out of the firing line for their protection and development.

[dsr]

I think scraped a win is very harsh on us. Their penalty shout is irrelevant since they scored immediately after anyway and to say you wouldn't have known we were against 10 men for the majority is beyond me. We dominated the vast majority of the game and only came under pressure at the end when they threw caution to the wind and launched everything they had at us. We could and should have had the game tucked up earlier but for Fofana's horrendous miss.

The penalty shout they're talking about was the one where Fofana may or may not have wrestled their man to the ground, and it wasn't immediately before the goal.

The penalty shout that was immediately before the goal was when Muric flattened Toney while punching the ball away, and that's the one that was irrelevant.

[Carlos the Great]

We are definitely going to lose matches even with Muric in nets ..He could a 10 every week and we still more than likely are getting relegated but to leave him out all season has made a lot of people ask if VK really knows what he is doing .: He has possibly had too much success as a player to acknowledge he might not have all the answers and he is capable of making mistakes .. The fact he has played Traff all season is shocking really

[Mansfield claret]

We are definitely going to lose matches even with Muric in nets ..He could a 10 every week and we still more than likely are getting relegated but to leave him out all season has made a lot of people ask if VK really knows what he is doing .: He has possibly had too much success as a player to acknowledge he might not have all the answers and he is capable of making mistakes .. The fact he has played Traff all season is shocking really

I would guess, without major errors he plays until the end of the season, judge him then, and how the team improves, or not...... Please not after 1 game against 10 men, in which I thought he did well

[Mansfield claret]

It was only last week he was accusing other posters of having multiple accounts and here we are now and he’s been rumbled for that exact thing

If that's aimed at me, please leave me out of your petty squabbles

I've given permission for the mods to check, that I am presently in Italy and that I have no connection to the poster you have a problem with

Until you can prove otherwise please just concentrate on football.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Didn’t you claim the person behind your old user name had died last time you switched?

[Brugge Claret]

IMG_1533.png (1.73 MiB) Viewed 2317 times

Not bad for a debut.

[AfloatinClaret]

How could he possibly consider including Fofana in the team of the week; yes, he scored and was creative, but Fofana also missed two absolute sitter's. That said, it must've taken some serious ability on Fofana's part put the ball outside that goalpost from three feet away... I don't think I could've managed it.

[Brugge Claret]

How could he possibly consider including Fofana in the team of the week; yes, he scored and was creative, but Fofana also missed two absolute sitter's. That said, it must've taken some serious ability on Fofana's part put the ball outside that goalpost from three feet away... I don't think I could've managed it.

You need to remember there were probably only 6 or 8 Premier League teams playing this week so there weren’t meant to pick from.

[Carlos the Great]

I would guess, without major errors he plays until the end of the season, judge him then, and how the team improves, or not...... Please not after 1 game against 10 men, in which I thought he did well

He did well … yes he did what he did all last season ..we didn’t need a new keeper .. we have wasted so much money not only on a keeper but 7 wingers too .. I get it we played a poor team who had 10 men but even if we lost .. he did well

[Mansfield claret]

He did well … yes he did what he did all last season ..we didn’t need a new keeper .. we have wasted so much money not only on a keeper but 7 wingers too .. I get it we played a poor team who had 10 men but even if we lost .. he did well

Yes he did what he did last season, agreed. Hopefully that carries on.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

He did well … yes he did what he did all last season ..we didn’t need a new keeper .. we have wasted so much money not only on a keeper but 7 wingers too .. I get it we played a poor team who had 10 men but even if we lost .. he did well

If we’d have bought a destroyer in midfield instead of you know who we probably wouldn’t have been near the bottom. The clubs biggest premier league cock up I would say.

Looking forward to the next matches now to see what the difference is!

We need to sell all the dross signings and buy some afcon big lads for the midfield.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

He did well … yes he did what he did all last season ..we didn’t need a new keeper .. we have wasted so much money not only on a keeper but 7 wingers too .. I get it we played a poor team who had 10 men but even if we lost .. he did well

Some people just can’t praise him even after that performance. Mind boggling.

[South West Claret.]

Special mention for this legend - simply magnificent today.

Genuinely had it all to do - massive saves in key moments, brilliant distribution and even went to war at the end there receiving a few clatterings.

Could have easily downed tools after being cast aside like he had but to put that performance in today speaks volumes about his professionalism.

Superb.

He certainly made some fundermentle saves on Saturday.

[bfcjg]

So pleased that Muric played so well and proved he should be number one. However the cynical side of me thinks the club know we are down,they know Trafford's value has plummeted, with good displays Murics will soar so when we sell him at the end of the season the Trafford deficit will be mitigated to a certain extent.

[Brugge Claret]

So pleased that Muric played so well and proved he should be number one. However the cynical side of me thinks the club know we are down,they know Trafford's value has plummeted, with good displays Murics will soar so when we sell him at the end of the season the Trafford deficit will be mitigated to a certain extent.

Mentioned this earlier on in the post ,it wouldn’t suprise me knowing how the club appears to be run.

[Mansfield claret]

Some people just can’t praise him even after that performance. Mind boggling.

I've not seen anyone not praising him about Saturday, some a bit over the top, but not one saying he didn't play well

[Jamesy]

If we’d have bought a destroyer in midfield instead of you know who we probably wouldn’t have been near the bottom. The clubs biggest premier league cock up I would say.

Looking forward to the next matches now to see what the difference is!

We need to sell all the dross signings and buy some afcon big lads for the midfield.

Problem is, said dross signings won’t command anywhere near the money we spent on them. Here lies the big problem.

[StayingDown4Ever]

So pleased that Muric played so well and proved he should be number one. However the cynical side of me thinks the club know we are down,they know Trafford's value has plummeted, with good displays Murics will soar so when we sell him at the end of the season the Trafford deficit will be mitigated to a certain extent.

Great - then we are back to square one with Trafford in goal again next season?

[Mansfield claret]

Problem is, said dross signings won’t command anywhere near the money we spent on them. Here lies the big problem.

We will money on every signing... There are no "dross" signings

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Problem is, said dross signings won’t command anywhere near the money we spent on them. Here lies the big problem.

I dont know if we cashed them all in it could probably raise enough money for one really good player, Id like to see Benson given at least some of the last ten games to see if hes any good at this level.

Brownhill £10m?

Benson £10m?

Kolo £10m? (done well obv)



If VK is not going to play Benson at all might as well sell him to southampton or something

Id rather us get someone really good than have players on the bench that he doesnt fancy to bring on anyway, seems a waste of wages.

£30m should get us one really good starting centre mid don't you think?

There are loads of other squad players i would sell on too, too many to mention.

The squad is really bloated with players that havent made the grade. Sell and upgrade them for every four to five of them sold.

[Brugge Claret]

We will money on every signing... There are no "dross" signings

See your still towing the party line.

[Jamesy]

We will money on every signing... There are no "dross" signings

Stop it my sides are splitting and my ribs are aching from laughter.

[Mansfield claret]

See your still towing the party line.

As I said on another thread, you registered a week ago, why are you targeting me?.....

[Mansfield claret]

Stop it my sides are splitting and my ribs are aching from laughter.

Who are the "dross" signings?

[Jamesy]

Who are the "dross" signings?

The majority of his signings have been poor. Open your eyes.

[evensteadiereddie]

The majority?
Well, go on then, you may as well name them.

[IanMcL]

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/sport/fo ... rd-4558198

Mr Kompany did no favours to Trafford, keeping him in the firing line for so long. In the end, the crowd was on his back and that was unfair.

The adulation of Muric was over the top, simply because the change was months overdue.

The poorest of management decisions.

[Brugge Claret]

The majority?
Well, go on then, you may as well name them.

Not all been poor but some haven’t worked out.
Poor I would say Trafford , Amdouni ,Tresor,Redmond,Ramsey,both did nothing up to being injured
Not worked out Twine McNally,Churlinov ,Egan -Riley,Obafemi,the German goalkeeper whose name a cant remember,however the not worked out ones may have been bought thinking we weren’t going to get promoted.

[spt_claret]

You're using commas like Westleigh used to do
None of the ones you mention are "dross" and I would guess we'd make a profit on them all eventually as all of them are on long contracts and won't be sold this summer, other than for a profit

How do you know who Westleigh is if you're new? Still running away from posts that engage with your points and only debating trolls because they're easy pickings, Nori?

I highly doubt we make a profit on Tresor if he's been signed permanently. Amdouni, we will probably break even on similar to Cornet, at best. Trafford it's hugely contingent on his development- as it stands, if I was an outside club I wouldn't pay what we paid for him.
We need Ramsey to get fit and perform well to turn a profit on him, no guarantee of either, I think we should make a small profit but it's not guaranteed.

But as others have pointed out, there is too much of an obsession with turning profit on players. I'm not a member of ALK, turning a profit on player trading is irrelevant to me. I'm a supporter of the club, I want the club to do well. Remaining financially solvent is part of that (Although that also means being debt free in my book, which I doubt the club will ever be again). But success on the pitch is a huge part of that too (and a part of financial success). I want players to stay and keep us in the Prem, ideally competing respectably in the Prem as we did for a few years under the previous regime. I'm fine with us not making a profit on players if it means keeping them and producing on pitch success. It's easy for armchair investors to say we should have sold Tarkowski for £20-30m and reinvested it, but it's very possible that reinvestment wouldn't have found as good players and that we would have been relegated 1-2 years sooner, missing out on a LOT more than £30m. There's opportunity cost in not selling, but there's also the opportunity cost in selling and weakening the team to the point of relegation.

That said however- even if you're taking the argument that not all players need to be sold for profit, those players you're not selling need to play well and perform well to achieve on pitch success- which likely would result in profit if they were to then be sold. So most players need to grow in quality or value somewhere. And we've not seen that in some, and there's never a guarantee you will. People are far, far too complacent and videogame-like in their belief that young or inexperienced players will always improve, or improve when you need them to as quickly as you need them to. Same as they're too videogame-like in believing players past a certain age can't improve or develop.

[daveisaclaret]

We are seeing users get banned for trolling and clogging up threads, they immediately and transparently start using new usernames to do the exact same thing, and yet people still engage with them. There's only so much the mods can do - if we want to have a good messageboard we need users who are willing to cultivate it.

[Jamesy]

The majority?
Well, go on then, you may as well name them.

Why are you always trying to provoke an argument? Trafford, Amdouni, Ramsey, Tresor just for starters. That’s 60 million pounds worth.
Then several costing a few million here a few million there. More money spunked away.
Let’s turn it on its head then. You tell me why these individual players are any good, listing their individual merits.
It shouldn’t take you too long.
We are down the bottom of the league for a reason. Poorly recruited players and a stubborn or naive manager.

[Darnhill Claret]

With Muric back in the team, the players in front of him might come into a run of form that makes them look better players. Additionally if our 'back 4' come under less pressure, the players further forward, midfielders, might become more forward thinking and support our front players better. That is why we could start to improve our playing fortunes.

[evensteadiereddie]

Why are you always trying to provoke an argument? Trafford, Amdouni, Ramsey, Tresor just for starters. That’s 60 million pounds worth.
Then several costing a few million here a few million there. More money spunked away.
Let’s turn it on its head then. You tell me why these individual players are any good, listing their individual merits.
It shouldn’t take you too long.
We are down the bottom of the league for a reason. Poorly recruited players and a stubborn or naive manager.

Don't be so childish. YOU made the claim that the majority of VK's signings are dud. I merely asked you, out of curiosity, to clarify which ones you included in that and, perhaps, why.
You have done although four isn't really a majority but much obliged anyway.

So back in yer box, Jakub, nothing for you to get involved in here, lad.

[evensteadiereddie]

As I said, YOU made the claim, I asked for clarification which you've partly given.
No provocation intended, I was just curious which players you considered to have performed so badly or were, in my words, "a dud".
Sorry you were offended by my query.

[CoolClaret]

Just put in one of those 'signature' performances from a Burnley keeper - up there with Heaton at Old Trafford that.

Sensational. Supreme talent.

[Pickles]

I absolutely love him. I'm like a teenage girl. What a player.

[expoultryboy]

Hope he's fit for Tuesday

[StayingDown4Ever]

Muric absolutely humiliating all those Trafford fans.

[PremierLeagueClass]

Muric absolutely humiliating all those Trafford fans.

The only one continually humiliating themselves is you pal

[Bosscat]

The only one continually humiliating themselves is you pal

[BurnleyFC]

Regardless of how he’s been treated this season and the circumstances behind it, we need to do all we can to keep hold of him next season.

He has to be our number one, even if that means moving Trafford on.