Fitness

[agreenwood]

Maybe, maybe not. Some of our players do noticeably look tired towards the end of games. Without wishing to draw comparison to Dyche’s sides I felt we used to be the opposite and would often not even make a single substitute. Perhaps we play a higher intensity game, also we have younger players who may be less good at managing their efforts during a game, but Foster usually looks knackered and Odobert and Koleosho have both been blowing quite early in games this season.

We also seem to pick up an extraordinarily high number of injuries compared to teams in the recent past.

Foster did look knackered on Saturday, but he’s only just come back from another long lay off. Odobert and Koleosho tend just to drift out of games for me, which I think is often about experience and confidence. As an example Koleosho’s diminishing effectiveness tended to coincide with the games being taken away from us earlier in the season.

As for injuries, have we had any more than any other team this season? Nobody has questioned Luton’s fitness and they have more injuries now than we’ve had at any stage. In fact lots of teams seem to have suffered heavily with injuries this season.

[Goliath]

Fosters been back for ages. We are playing 1 game a week, it really shouldn't be too much to ask for him to get up to fitness

[Rileybobs]

Foster did look knackered on Saturday, but he’s only just come back from another long lay off. Odobert and Koleosho tend just to drift out of games for me, which I think is often about experience and confidence. As an example Koleosho’s diminishing effectiveness tended to coincide with the games being taken away from us earlier in the season.

As for injuries, have we had any more than any other team this season? Nobody has questioned Luton’s fitness and they have more injuries now than we’ve had at any stage. In fact lots of teams seem to have suffered heavily with injuries this season.

I’m not really comparing to other teams as I don’t know their situations. It’s easier to compare to other squads we’ve had recently at this same level and I would say this group is far less robust and less capable of going the distance. Not a criticism of VK’s methods, just an observation, and probably much more to do with the type of player we have recruited and the less emphasis placed on this type of physical attribute. For example, this squad is much faster than any we’ve had at this level which no doubt means a trade-off in other areas.

[dougcollins]

Fosters been back for ages. We are playing 1 game a week, it really shouldn't be too much to ask for him to get up to fitness

He'll found out how fit he is next season with two a week.

[claretspice]

Fosters been back for ages. We are playing 1 game a week, it really shouldn't be too much to ask for him to get up to fitness

It's less than 3 weeks since he was deemed fit enough to start for the first time this year, and that came only one sub appearance which was itself a surprisingly early return.

[helmclaret]

It's less than 3 weeks since he was deemed fit enough to start for the first time this year, and that came only one sub appearance which was itself a surprisingly early return.

A lack of confidence will have a lot to do with us looking ‘tired.’ Playing in a poor team that makes game changing mistakes most weeks is absolutely draining.

[Goliath]

It's less than 3 weeks since he was deemed fit enough to start for the first time this year, and that came only one sub appearance which was itself a surprisingly early return.

Surely he goes through an intense fitness regime before he's deemed fit enough to play football and if he didn't then he should do it himself. I've got very little patience for that kind of thing.

[blatherwickstattoos]

It’s not just fitness it’s strength too. Remember Villa coming and looking like men vs boys. Same with spurs and most teams this season

[claretspice]

Surely he goes through an intense fitness regime before he's deemed fit enough to play football and if he didn't then he should do it himself. I've got very little patience for that kind of thing.

He's recovering from a hernia.

Before he had a hernia I heard various criticisms of Foster, but amongst them was not a lack of fitness or effort. On the contrary he stood out in the Luton game for his workrate.

I'm not sure its wise to default to an assumption that any player lacks basic professionalism and I think Foster in particular warrants the benefit of the doubt.

[helmclaret]

Villa and Spurs did knock us about as well as having a lot of quality in their midfields.

[boatshed bill]

He's recovering from a hernia.

Before he had a hernia I heard various criticisms of Foster, but amongst them was not a lack of fitness or effort. On the contrary he stood out in the Luton game for his workrate.

I'm not sure its wise to default to an assumption that any player lacks basic professionalism and I think Foster in particular warrants the benefit of the doubt.

Absolutely. Well said, Spice.

[claretspice]

Absolutely. Well said, Spice.

And the Luton game is but one example. Presumably at a time when he was awaiting a hernia op.

Twice this season we've been away at top sides, had a man sent off early, and then "won" the rest of the game. Twice Foster has been lone striker in those games. That doesn't happen if he's not trying his damnedest for the team.

[boatshed bill]

And the Luton game is but one example. Presumably at a time when we he was awaiting a hernia op.

Twice this season we've been away at top sides, had a man sent off early, and then shown won the rest of the game. Twice Foster has been lone striker in those games. That doesn't happen if he's not trying his damnedest for the team.

Again, 100% correct.
I get the impression that some of our fellow posters will find any angle to have a go at the management/coaches. I'd bet our players are on the same level of fitness as any other squad.

[Goliath]

I agree. He was fantastic pre Injury but since he's been back his fitness has been unacceptable.
Firstly, he was clearly brought back to soon so I think the majority took it quite easy on any criticism but personally I thought his performance was unacceptable on Saturday especially in the second half. He just didn't look to be trying, the very basics of closing down etc just weren't there.

[bumba]

I agree. He was fantastic pre Injury but since he's been back his fitness has been unacceptable.
Firstly, he was clearly brought back to soon so I think the majority took it quite easy on any criticism but personally I thought his performance was unacceptable on Saturday especially in the second half. He just didn't look to be trying, the very basics of closing down etc just weren't there.

I don't know about not trying he just looked absolutely done to me, management should have subbed him they have all the data with the heart monitors they wear he was visible shattered he should have been subbed for Benson. Why we persist with players out of position and even shattered ones over Benson having a cameo is beyond me

[claretspice]

I agree. He was fantastic pre Injury but since he's been back his fitness has been unacceptable.
Firstly, he was clearly brought back to soon so I think the majority took it quite easy on any criticism but personally I thought his performance was unacceptable on Saturday especially in the second half. He just didn't look to be trying, the very basics of closing down etc just weren't there.

Right. So we agree that generally his work rate and fitness are not an issue, so presumably we can rule out a general lack of commitment. Good to clear that up.

Which leaves us agreeing that if he's down on fitness now, its directly related to his injury lay off. If we accept the premise that hes not as fit (and i dont think his performances, especially at Chelsea, particularly support that theory but lets park that for now) there are two options:

A) he's come back from injury with a lesser commitment to fitness than before he left off.

B) he's no less committed but is still hampered in some way by the injury, bearing in mind he returned earlier than expected

For your own reasons you've gone with option A without acknowledging that option B exists, which seems quite remarkable to me. Its at least as possible that he's struggling because he's volunteered to play through the pain barrier to try and help the team in a do and die period. And yet your assumption is that in the space of 2 months he's turned into a wastrel, and is poster boy for some wider fitness malaise within the squad. I don't get that im afraid. It's always worth remembering we don't know what is going on behind closed doors and we almost never have the full picture about a player's fitness or injury position- almost every player is managing something at this stage in a season. And given what Foster has been through this season it seems right to be particularly careful before casting aspertions in his direction.

[Goliath]

Right. So we agree that generally his work rate and fitness are not an issue, so presumably we can rule out a general lack of commitment. Good to clear that up.

Which leaves us agreeing that if he's down on fitness now, its directly related to his injury lay off. If we accept the premise that hes not as fit (and i dont think his performances, especially at Chelsea, particularly support that theory but lets park that for now) there are two options:

A) he's come back from injury with a lesser commitment to fitness than before he left off.

B) he's no less committed but is still hampered in some way by the injury, bearing in mind he returned earlier than expected

For your own reasons you've gone with option A without acknowledging that option B exists, which seems quite remarkable to me. Its at least as possible that he's struggling because he's volunteered to play through the pain barrier to try and help the team in a do and die period. And yet your assumption is that in the space of 2 months he's turned into a wastrel, and is poster boy for some wider fitness malaise within the squad. I don't get that im afraid. It's always worth remembering we don't know what is going on behind closed doors and we almost never have the full picture about a player's fitness or injury position- almost every player is managing something at this stage in a season. And given what Foster has been through this season it seems right to be particularly careful before casting aspertions in his direction.

I'm not sure why you're presuming his work rate isn't an issue. That's literally the issue we are discussing isn't it. I think it's quite a big issue in terms of how we want to press. The reasons for why it is an issue is what is up for debate.
I'm not sure he's really the 'poster boy' as you'd described, it's one thread about a game in which in my opinion his work rate was extremely lacking.

Your point about him playing through the pain barrier is valid, that's a distinct possibility, however if that was the case I very much doubt he'd be playing as much as he is without being subbed or being brought on off the bench, so I'm inclined to think it isn't related to the injury it's just his general fitness.

We are never going to know the real reason but from what I saw in the last few games something isn't right and I don't know what game you watched against Chelsea but from what I saw and I commented at the time, he clearly wasn't fit for that game and seemed to have been told to conserve energy as much as possible by staying central and waiting for the right opportunities. It nearly paid off with the big chance he got before going off.

However I thought by now he would have had time to build his fitness back up but it doesn't seem to have improved one bit since then, which is what angered me whilst watching the match and resulted in this thread (which was probably harsher than it would have been if I hadn't posted it straight after the game)

[evensteadiereddie]

This myth of the players not being fit enough is as daft as the ones claiming the players aren't trying or VK has "lost the dressing room".

[Goliath]

This myth of the players not being fit enough is as daft as the ones claiming the players aren't trying or VK has "lost the dressing room".

It's about being fit enough for the system and now we are trying to play 90 minutes of man to man pressing all over the pitch, I think they are struggling to maintain that for a full game. I've seen us really struggle fitness wise for the last half an hour at least against Wolves, West Ham and now Brighton in recent weeks.

I don't think it helps that we are trying to play that system with a front 4 of which 2 are definitely lazy in terms of work rate (Odobert and Fofana) and one in Foster who isn't fit (for whatever reason). It's asking a lot of the rest of the team and is probably why we looked like we are right on the ragged edge at times with players having to just drag opposition players down in desperation numerous times per game

[AlargeClaret]

It's about being fit enough for the system and now we are trying to play 90 minutes of man to man pressing all over the pitch, I think they are struggling to maintain that for a full game. I've seen us really struggle fitness wise for the last half an hour at least against Wolves, West Ham and now Brighton in recent weeks.

I don't think it helps that we are trying to play that system with a front 4 of which 2 are definitely lazy in terms of work rate (Odobert and Fofana) and one in Foster who isn't fit (for whatever reason). It's asking a lot of the rest of the team and is probably why we looked like we are right on the ragged edge at times with players having to just drag opposition players down in desperation numerous times per game

Correct! It’s nothing to do with individual cardio etc , it’s the aspect of playing a system we’re unable to fully compete with v other sides . This leading to constant “ dead runs” leading to nothing /possession loss/ foul etc , leaving is a touch ragged late on .

Nearly all teams , top 2/3 flights have more or less identical fitness stats the world over .Modern aerobic/anaerobic training methods are tailored for a bloody hard 90+ mins . You can only be so fit .

[Goliath]

Correct! It’s nothing to do with individual cardio etc , it’s the aspect of playing a system we’re unable to fully compete with v other sides . This leading to constant “ dead runs” leading to nothing /possession loss/ foul etc , leaving is a touch ragged late on .

Nearly all teams , top 2/3 flights have more or less identical fitness stats the world over .Modern aerobic/anaerobic training methods are tailored for a bloody hard 90+ mins . You can only be so fit .

Yep but teams usually sign players to fit the system they are going to play so it's less of an issue. I'm not sure we've done that

[Bullabill]

........ he's struggling because he's volunteered to play through the pain barrier to try and help the team in a do and die period.

Quite right Spice, do and die.

[Goliath]

Foster off with potential cramp, Assignon pulled up with cramp and possibly a couple more that I've missed

[ClaretOfMancunia]

Most of them out there looked gassed by 70 mins today. Did put a shift in though.

[Goliath]

Most of them out there looked gassed by 70 mins today. Did put a shift in though.

Agreed but every team puts a shift in at this level. If we don't have the fitness to do it for 90 minutes then we will get caught out with late goals

[Clovius Boofus]

I'm beginning to wonder whether some people on here have ever said anything positive in their entire life.

[Goliath]

I'm beginning to wonder whether some people on here have ever said anything positive in their entire life.

Regularly. I don't think we need to be getting carried with a win where we rode our luck against a very poor side.

[Clovius Boofus]

Rode our luck 1-4. Oh well...