So do you drop Muric after two massive costly howlers?

[123EasyasBFC]

Please stop trying so hard to defend the indefensible. It looks very silly.

What’s indefensible, it’s clear that we have been better in the last 5 games, only lost once.

The error today I have already said on another thread is indefensible but the one last weekend is unlucky.

It’s not hard to see that as a whole we are a much better team with muric in the time, it’s simple.

Just like how all summer people rightly said Taylor at left back doesn’t suit the style we play and his limitations are there to see. It’s clear that we can only play the style we want to with muric in the team. I don’t know how anyone can say they watched Trafford for 28 games and think he suited our style of play

[CoolClaret]

I have to say that as an ex goalkeeper I would expect to be dropped for the 2 errors

There's literally 0 point in doing so at this point.

If anything, we need to throw even more caution to the wind on the off chance that we win 3+ of our remaining games.

We will only win taking big chances and trying to take the game to the opposition.

[Big Vinny K]

Please stop trying so hard to defend the indefensible. It looks very silly.

Exactly this.
Who would use the Sheff United keeper as a defence - they are the only team who have been sh-itter than us !!

Those who thought Muric was the answer have been made to look a bit stupid.

That does not mean he did not deserve a chance to play as he certainly did.

But those who have said that we do not have a keeper at club right now who is good enough for the Premier League are the only ones that are correct.
The keepers we have are not good enough in this league to play the style of football we choose to play - but they are also not good enough to play a more direct style either. They may develop into better keepers - but not sure we have the quality of goalkeeping coaches at the club now either.

You put either Trafford or Muric behind a much more solid and better defence and they still both have big mistakes and inconsistency in them. You look round the other teams and I’d say only Sheff United have 2 keepers as poor as ours.

[deanothedino]

I think I'd keep him in, he took some dangerous crosses very well today so, yeah, keep him in for next week against Sheff U.

Shame he couldn’t take a tame back pass as well though.

[boatshed bill]

There's literally 0 point in doing so at this point.

If anything, we need to throw even more caution to the wind on the off chance that we win 3+ of our remaining games.

We will only win taking big chances and trying to take the game to the opposition.

Possibly, but accepting that level of carelessness isn't a great thing either.

[deanothedino]

Based on Trafford had 28 games to show if he was up to the premier league so based on that muric should be given the same amount of games.

Muric should have started the season and had the errors piled up and his passing stats dropped and the overall play dropped then Trafford comes in, you won’t ever see a team again get promoted to the premier league and drop their keeper who was in team of the year unless it’s a loan signing they don’t sign perm

Maybe this logic would stand if Trafford had dropped 2 absolute clangers two weeks in a row and cost us a minimum of 3 points but he didn’t.

[Guller Bull]

There's literally 0 point in doing so at this point.

If anything, we need to throw even more caution to the wind on the off chance that we win 3+ of our remaining games.

We will only win taking big chances and trying to take the game to the opposition.

In terms of player value there may well be.

Trafford will be be worth a fair wedge once he matures and bounces back.
Muric likewise .

Play Vigoroux four or five dead rubbers and he becomes a Prem keeper with a much higher value. Also gives him game time and a chance to prove his worth.

[123EasyasBFC]

Exactly this.
Who would use the Sheff United keeper as a defence - they are the only team who have been sh-itter than us !!

Those who thought Muric was the answer have been made to look a bit stupid.

That does not mean he did not deserve a chance to play as he certainly did.

But those who have said that we do not have a keeper at club right now who is good enough for the Premier League are the only ones that are correct.
The keepers we have are not good enough in this league to play the style of football we choose to play - but they are also not good enough to play a more direct style either. They may develop into better keepers - but not sure we have the quality of goalkeeping coaches at the club now either.

You put either Trafford or Muric behind a much more solid and better defence and they still both have big mistakes and inconsistency in them. You look round the other teams and I’d say only Sheff United have 2 keepers as poor as ours.

It’s not using the sheff United keeper as a defence, he said wouldn’t see a premier league keeper make the same mistake when a current premier league keeper made the exact same mistake

[CoolClaret]

Exactly this.
Who would use the Sheff United keeper as a defence - they are the only team who have been sh-itter than us !!

Those who thought Muric was the answer have been made to look a bit stupid.

That does not mean he did not deserve a chance to play as he certainly did.

But those who have said that we do not have a keeper at club right now who is good enough for the Premier League are the only ones that are correct.
The keepers we have are not good enough in this league to play the style of football we choose to play - but they are also not good enough to play a more direct style either. They may develop into better keepers - but not sure we have the quality of goalkeeping coaches at the club now either.

You put either Trafford or Muric behind a much more solid and better defence and they still both have big mistakes and inconsistency in them. You look round the other teams and I’d say only Sheff United have 2 keepers as poor as ours.

Disagree.

This system/style of play is incredibly hard for a goal keeper and even St. Nick Pope would look terrible if expected to pass/receive the ball and sweep up like we expect our keeper to do.

If we played with a lower block, wingers effectively playing as defensive wingers/ extra pair of fullbacks both keepers would have looked 'better'.

With the way we play we will make mistakes at the back until we keep slowly improving where the mistakes become less and less frequent.

The argument all along has been if we persist playing this way that Muric will give the team the best chance in getting a result... No one being honest expected it to be smooth sailing, mistake free football from game one to game 38.

[123EasyasBFC]

Maybe this logic would stand if Trafford had dropped 2 absolute clangers two weeks in a row and cost us a minimum of 3 points but he didn’t.

But the fact we only had 8 positive results in 20 games with Trafford in goal and we have had 4 positive results in 5 games with muric in goal doesn’t say logically you would keep muric in goal

[123EasyasBFC]

The keeper that gives us the best chance of winning matches in muric without a doubt

2 mistakes have been costly, over a 38 game season muric would save us more times

[Goliath]

Obviously not, hes a significantly better goalkeeper than Trafford. I think he has 1 defeat in 5 since he came in

[Quickenthetempo]

Muric is a far better keeper and hasn't made a single keeper error. He's made two errors with his feet.

I would put Trafford back in goal so our players stop turning into cowards and passing back to the keeper all the time.
Before Trafford goy dropped we had stopped passing backwards and he just launched it .

Fine the players a grand for every pass back.

Why would any player pass back to the keeper in the line of the goals when the weather had turned for the worse?
Not even schoolboy stuff.

[123EasyasBFC]

People need to watch the last 5 games and look at how different teams set up against us from set pieces and pressing from goal kicks to what they did in the reverse fixture when Trafford was in goal

[equinox]

Jack Butland at Rangers is better than both Trafford and Muric.

Sometimes it's not that difficult this management thing.

[CoolClaret]

Jack Butland at Rangers is better than both Trafford and Muric.

Sometimes it's not that difficult this management thing.

I like Butland and he's doing well north of the border - but Butland cannot do what VK wants from his goalkeeper...

(not many can).

[Big Vinny K]

It’s not using the sheff United keeper as a defence, he said wouldn’t see a premier league keeper make the same mistake when a current premier league keeper made the exact same mistake

The last keeper to make an error like Muric did today in the Premier League was nearly 22 years ago.

God only knows how many years it was since a keeper made mistakes as bad as Muric did in consecutive games. But I’m guessing there were only 3 TV channels.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I like Butland and he's doing well north of the border - but Butland cannot do what VK wants from his goalkeeper...

(not many can).

There lies the problem.

Managers need to find systems that work. Not shoe horn players that arnt good enough into a system.

[CoolClaret]

The last keeper to make an error like Muric did today in the Premier League was nearly 22 years ago.

God only knows how many years it was since a keeper made mistakes as bad as Muric did in consecutive games. But I’m guessing there were only 3 TV channels.

Knock yourself out - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofevr9XrYOs

[ksrclaret]

Jack Butland at Rangers is better than both Trafford and Muric.

Sometimes it's not that difficult this management thing.

Far too sensible a suggestion for our managerial genius.

[123EasyasBFC]

The last keeper to make an error like Muric did today in the Premier League was nearly 22 years ago.

God only knows how many years it was since a keeper made mistakes as bad as Muric did in consecutive games. But I’m guessing there were only 3 TV channels.

Right we all know muric made an error today, last week is not an error it’s unfortunate.

It’s a very lazy view to not take into consideration all the positives muric has brought to the last 5 games. The last 5 games have resulted in our best form (as I said early not much to shout about) the games have been 100x more bearable to watch. How can anyone question kompanys decisions from week one of the season but Trafford not be one of the wrong decisions.

[CoolClaret]

Oh and btw

If Muric played for Rangers he would look like the second coming of Christ in that league... and you know what - so would Traff.

[123EasyasBFC]

There lies the problem.

Managers need to find systems that work. Not shoe horn players that arnt good enough into a system.

We had a player suited to the system he played 41 games in the championship and was in team of the year.

You aren’t going to turnaround now and suddenly say muric doesn’t suit the system, that would really by something even by your standards

[warksclaret]

Another meaningless stat (we have only lost one in 5/6 games) when they have mainly been against teams in the bottom half of the PL Table and none against teams in the top 6. We even played Wolves when they were toothless without the injured pair of Neto and Cunha.

Funny how we lost games v WHU, Chelsea (convincingly), and Brentford (convincingly) with Trafford in goal. We have not beaten a top 6 with either keeper so I don't see your point. For me its irrelevant who you beat -its getting enough points during the season that counts. Man City have a real chance of winning the PL again, but their record this season v the top 5 is abysmal

[deanothedino]

But the fact we only had 8 positive results in 20 games with Trafford in goal and we have had 4 positive results in 5 games with muric in goal doesn’t say logically you would keep muric in goal

We’ve had 3 positive results from 5 with Muric and lost 3 points solely because of him. I can’t accept a point today is a positive.

I’d say logic says you go back to the keeper who didn’t cost you results. Though ultimately it proves we’re not a good enough side to be giving either keeper so much of the ball and expect to get results.

[123EasyasBFC]

I would have money on with anyone that even at 25 years old muric is more successful in his career than Trafford. Muric has natural ability that every modern keeper needs to have. It can’t be coached into Trafford to be anywhere near the level of muric with his feet

[123EasyasBFC]

We’ve had 3 positive results from 5 with Muric and lost 3 points solely because of him. I can’t accept a point today is a positive.

I’d say logic says you go back to the keeper who didn’t cost you results. Though ultimately it proves we’re not a good enough side to be giving either keeper so much of the ball and expect to get results.

4 positive results in 5 league games 1 win 3 draws 1 defeat, if you are going to argue at least get the figures right.

Again another person not looking at the all round game that is instantly better with muric in the game. We lost 20 games in 28 games with Trafford in the side it’s simple don’t know why it’s so hard to understand

[deanothedino]

4 positive results in 5 league games 1 win 3 draws 1 defeat, if you are going to argue at least get the figures right.

Again another person not looking at the all round game that is instantly better with muric in the game. We lost 20 games in 28 games with Trafford in the side it’s simple don’t know why it’s so hard to understand

A draw from a comfortable winning position because your keeper has knocked it into his own net is not a positive result.

I’d consider 3 positives from 5 the correct figures, unless you’re not interested in how results happen.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I would have money on with anyone that even at 25 years old muric is more successful in his career than Trafford. Muric has natural ability that every modern keeper needs to have. It can’t be coached into Trafford to be anywhere near the level of muric with his feet

Come on 123, this is just getting silly. You have a very wierd agenda with Muric.

He’s just an ok keeper. Probably going to float around championship/turkish leagues the rest of his career. These wierd suggestions that he is some kind of top keeper is just getting a bit embarrassing.

No idea where Trafford ends up but so far he’s won a pretty prestigious tournament and is only a young lad.

[deanothedino]

No idea where Trafford ends up but so far he’s won a pretty prestigious tournament and is only a young lad.

And while becoming the first keeper to not concede a single goal in winning that tournament and having to save a penalty in the final to achieve that.

[123EasyasBFC]

A draw from a comfortable winning position because your keeper has knocked it into his own net is not a positive result.

I’d consider 3 positives from 5 the correct figures, unless you’re not interested in how results happen.

We draw the game we didn’t lose, you can’t pick and chose when a draw is a positive result or not, it’s still a positive result. Otherwise you can’t class any draw from being in the lead a positive.

Even if you want to go off 3 positive results out of 5 that’s still a hell of a lot better than 8 out of 28

[123EasyasBFC]

Come on 123, this is just getting silly. You have a very wierd agenda with Muric.

He’s just an ok keeper. Probably going to float around championship/turkish leagues the rest of his career. These wierd suggestions that he is some kind of top keeper is just getting a bit embarrassing.

No idea where Trafford ends up but so far he’s won a pretty prestigious tournament and is only a young lad.

His ability on the ball Trafford will never have that kind of ability, physically Trafford will bulk and may even grow a couple of inches so that part of his game can obviously improve.

You can’t use the u21s euros as a benchmark to the career he will have, that’s like saying ‘well muric saved a penalty against Kane and England’

[jlup1980]

Right we all know muric made an error today, last week is not an error it’s unfortunate.

It’s a very lazy view to not take into consideration all the positives muric has brought to the last 5 games. The last 5 games have resulted in our best form (as I said early not much to shout about) the games have been 100x more bearable to watch. How can anyone question kompanys decisions from week one of the season but Trafford not be one of the wrong decisions.

I like Muric and I think we look a lot better with him in the team. He's played five games, he was arguably MoM in two of them, but he made costly individual errors in two of them as well. Our fans seem to be Team Muric or Team Trafford which seems to be causing unnecessary arguments. Muric has had a positive impact but that doesn't mean we ignore the negatives. Trafford, for all his failings, hasn't made an individual error on the same level as the ones we've seen in the last week.

The one position that needs to be dependable is goalkeeper. You need to know he's a 6/10 on a bad day (christ, we were blessed with Heaton and Pope!) as you can't build a house on shakey foundations. What we've seen this season is neither Trafford or Muric appear to be ready for the PL yet.

[123EasyasBFC]

And while becoming the first keeper to not concede a single goal in winning that tournament and having to save a penalty in the final to achieve that.

Worst thing to ever happen to Trafford that penalty save in the final

[deanothedino]

We draw the game we didn’t lose, you can’t pick and chose when a draw is a positive result or not, it’s still a positive result. Otherwise you can’t class any draw from being in the lead a positive.

Even if you want to go off 3 positive results out of 5 that’s still a hell of a lot better than 8 out of 28

We need to win games, not throw them away with stupid errors. It’s not a positive and you’re only saying it is because you love Muric and can’t possibly accept he could do something wrong.

[123EasyasBFC]

I like Muric and I think we look a lot better with him in the team. He's played five games, he was arguably MoM in two of them, but he made costly individual errors in two of them as well. Our fans seem to be Team Muric or Team Trafford which seems to be causing unnecessary arguments. Muric has had a positive impact but that doesn't mean we ignore the negatives. Trafford, for all his failings, hasn't made an individual error on the same level as the ones we've seen in the last week.

The one position that needs to be dependable is goalkeeper. You need to know he's a 6/10 on a bad day (christ, we were blessed with Heaton and Pope!) as you can't build a house on shakey foundations. What we've seen this season is neither Trafford or Muric appear to be ready for the PL yet.

Nobody is ignoring the negatives, the error today is bad but the people who seem to want Trafford back in the side are failing to look at all the positives muric has brought to the last 5 games

[deanothedino]

Worst thing to ever happen to Trafford that penalty save in the final

Yeah, absolutely awful for him to win a tournament and keep six clean sheets.

Also awful that City wanted a buy back clause for him, when they didn’t for Muric. Painful that almost everyone outside our fan base rates him higher than Muric.

[CoolClaret]

The one position that needs to be dependable is goalkeeper. You need to know he's a 6/10 on a bad day (christ, we were blessed with Heaton and Pope!) as you can't build a house on shakey foundations. What we've seen this season is neither Trafford or Muric appear to be ready for the PL yet.

Whilst I do agree you have to remember that we also played in a system that gave both of them a lot of protection in this league. I think Pope would have looked terribly if put in this iteration of Burnley and I was (and still am) a ginormous Nick Pope fan.

[deanothedino]

Nobody is ignoring the negatives, the error today is bad but the people who seem to want Trafford back in the side are failing to look at all the positives muric has brought to the last 5 games

Positives like gifting a goal each to two sides who never looked like scoring?

[123EasyasBFC]

We need to win games, not throw them away with stupid errors. It’s not a positive and you’re only saying it is because you love Muric and can’t possibly accept he could do something wrong.

More than once tonight I have explained the error today is a shocker but you cannot pick and chose when a draw is a positive or not, it’s 1 point rather than 0 points.

So you don’t count forest away, Brighton away, Luton at home, West Ham away as positive results all games in which we scored first and ended up drawing the game

[alwaysaclaret]

Also what has been Benson's crime?
How has he offended VK so badly that he would bring on on Tresor in front of him when we need to score???

It seems vk will do everything bar give Benson a fair chance in a game, he's been given 5-10 minutes on maybe 3 or 4 occasions, today we have Larsen and Odobert on the pitch yet vk continues to have foster running round like a headless chicken swapping from wing to centre, so much so he hasn't a clue where vk wants him to be, and the same could be said for all 3 but less so for Odobert and Larsen, then he brings tresor on who again has given absolutely zero again today, and still Benson is sat getting splinters so to speak, baffling.

[Big Vinny K]

Right we all know muric made an error today, last week is not an error it’s unfortunate.

It’s a very lazy view to not take into consideration all the positives muric has brought to the last 5 games. The last 5 games have resulted in our best form (as I said early not much to shout about) the games have been 100x more bearable to watch. How can anyone question kompanys decisions from week one of the season but Trafford not be one of the wrong decisions.

I’m talking about the last 2 games where Muric has made 2 calamitous errors - to argue anything other than that is just plain daft.

As for the positive impact he has made in other games - I agree to a degree but let’s not exaggerate his impact. We have played a number of teams recently who have been bang average (for a variety of reasons). Our results have still been not been good enough considering how poor the opposition have played.

Now we can pretend this is all to do with changing our keeper if that’s what you really want to do.

There are not many people on this board who disagreed with bringing Muric back. There are not many people who have said that he deserved dropping in the first place. It’s just suits yours and a few other peoples agendas to suggest this.

The reality is both Trafford and Muric are not good enough for the Premier League right now.

There’s only a few posters who have argued that Muric is good enough….just like only the odd poster argued Trafford was. Most fans have taken a pretty balanced view.

[Newcastleclaret93]

His ability on the ball Trafford will never have that kind of ability, physically Trafford will bulk and may even grow a couple of inches so that part of his game can obviously improve.

You can’t use the u21s euros as a benchmark to the career he will have, that’s like saying ‘well muric saved a penalty against Kane and England’

Ability with the ball is not going to dictate the career. All round keeping ability will.

Muric is good with his feet but his all round play is knowhere near premier league level. His temperament is so erratic it’s unreal, this will massively hinder his career prospects.

Serious question do you honestly believe Muric will end up playing top league football?

Under 21s euros is a big career achievement I’m not sure why you wouldn’t include it? England have only won it 3 times in history.

[123EasyasBFC]

Positives like gifting a goal each to two sides who never looked like scoring?

Who knows what Everton would of done in the second half, you can’t say Brighton didn’t look like scoring even though we dominated the first half they still looked dangerous and they controlled large parts of the second half

[deanothedino]

More than once tonight I have explained the error today is a shocker but you cannot pick and chose when a draw is a positive or not, it’s 1 point rather than 0 points.

So you don’t count forest away, Brighton away, Luton at home, West Ham away as positive results all games in which we scored first and ended up drawing the game

You’re right I wouldn’t call most of those results positive either. Brighton away I would as we were being absolutely battered and came away with a point that we arguably didn’t deserve. West Ham was a positive with 10 men. Luton was definitely a negative because we should have won bar an error from Trafford of going for the ball when he was unlikely to get there as well as being unlucky that it wasn’t disallowed when a player blatantly changed path to obstruct him.

[123EasyasBFC]

Ability with the ball is not going to dictate the career. All round keeping ability will.

Muric is good with his feet but his all round play is knowhere near premier league level. His temperament is so erratic it’s unreal, this will massively hinder his career prospects.

Serious question do you honestly believe Muric will end up playing top league football?

Under 21s euros is a big career achievement I’m not sure why you wouldn’t include it? England have only won it 3 times in history.

Trafford is much more erratic than muric, if anything muric is to calm.

Muric will be a number one in a top league in Europe, if not with us after next season then either Spain Italy Germany France 100%

Winning the u21s doesn’t mean he will go on to have a better career than Muric

[CrosspoolClarets]

I’m devastated after today, as a big Muric fan. Really feel for him.

I really believe ordinary people (us) cannot make this decision. It is too hard.

Muric has star dust. Like few keepers I have ever seen. But he has brain fades. I suspect he took his eye off the ball to look at the players. A Sunday League error. Trafford will be like Pope, solid, unspectacular, great at stopping goals.

We have to sell one. But City kicked out Hart for not playing the way City need to play. Trafford is similar. Muric had a stinker at Bramall Lane last season (I was on the front row next to the post). Keep him in, show loyalty, banish the demons both from this week or two, and Bramall Lane. Could be the best decision.

[alwaysaclaret]

Of course he hasn’t

Bring Trafford and watch multiple goals go in again.

[123EasyasBFC]

You’re right I wouldn’t call most of those results positive either. Brighton away I would as we were being absolutely battered and came away with a point that we arguably didn’t deserve. West Ham was a positive with 10 men. Luton was definitely a negative because we should have won bar an error from Trafford of going for the ball when he was unlikely to get there as well as being unlucky that it wasn’t disallowed when a player blatantly changed path to obstruct him.

Which West Ham game were you watching we didn’t have 10 men, if you don’t class forest and Luton as positives then that’s even less positive results in Traffords 28 games, by your logic that’s now only 6 positive results in 28 games but you’d still have him in over someone with 3 positive results in 5 games

[Newcastleclaret93]

Trafford is much more erratic than muric, if anything muric is to calm.

Muric will be a number one in a top league in Europe, if not with us after next season then either Spain Italy Germany France 100%

Winning the u21s doesn’t mean he will go on to have a better career than Muric

Muric is the most erratic keeper I have ever seen for us. He’s a disaster just waiting to happen. Good keepers just don’t make mistakes as regular as he does.

Winning the U21s has given Trafford a better career so far. Muric is already playing catch up. Look at this way, he’s four years younger has already won a prestigious trophy and played nearly a full season of premier league football.