IF ONLY

[Bazer1882]

Berges goal at Forest had stood!

[AGENT_CLARET]

Without VAR and us gifting team's we'd be top 12

[ElectroClaret]

....Muric hadn't had his Monty Python moment against
Brighton.

[ClaretTony]

Berges goal at Forest had stood!

It was Foster who scored it

[jedi_master]

Forest VAR - 2 points
Luton VAR - 2 points
Brighton Muric - 2 points

That is our relegation really. Lots of what if’s in other games, but these are points that we have objectively had cheated out of us or made an unbelievable error in. As poor as we’ve been this season, we’d have probably done it with those!

[Zooniverser]

The Forest and Luton ones take a point of each of them too.
Those two alone would put us out of the zone.
Personally, I'm not up to speed on whether or not Luton and Forest also have incidents where they feel badly served by VAR but relegation feels incredibly unfair based on just those two.

Still, it's not over yet.

[jojomk1]

Forest VAR - 2 points
Luton VAR - 2 points
Brighton Muric - 2 points

That is our relegation really. Lots of what if’s in other games, but these are points that we have objectively had cheated out of us or made an unbelievable error in. As poor as we’ve been this season, we’d have probably done it with those!

Those incidents did not happen in the final seconds of the games - even if VAR came to another decision nobody could predict the end results after those events

Stop blaming VAR and look at the managers decision to start the season with an unproven GK and how he managed to oversee 24 lost points when we were winning games as another possible reason

[bumba]

The Forest and Luton ones take a point of each of them too.
Those two alone would put us out of the zone.
Personally, I'm not up to speed on whether or not Luton and Forest also have incidents where they feel badly served by VAR but relegation feels incredibly unfair based on just those two.

Still, it's not over yet.

All these ifs and buts are based on Burnley getting extra points for VAR decisions, what about decision against other teams at the bottom? Maybe they'd have more points too.
What about points we've gained that we shouldn't have had through VAR?

[ElectroClaret]

Overall, it's been self-inflicted.

[Stayingup]

....Muric hadn't had his Monty Python moment against
Brighton.

And his keystone cops moment at Everton. Two very costly howlers.

[Tricky Trevor]

Forest VAR - 2 points
Luton VAR - 2 points
Brighton Muric - 2 points

That is our relegation really. Lots of what if’s in other games, but these are points that we have objectively had cheated out of us or made an unbelievable error in. As poor as we’ve been this season, we’d have probably done it with those!

The Forest and Luton results would have been 3 for us and zero for them instead it was 1 for 1. So a 3 point swing.

[CombatClaret]

Forest got shafted in their 1-1 with Brentford
Everton at Spurs
etc, etc, etc

Point is VAR is bad for all teams, we're here because of our performances not a few dropped points that every team could claim.

[Colburn_Claret]

It's certainly true VAR has shafted us, and without it we'd be safe, but hand on heart looking at our overall performances, we can't have any complaints. If only we'd found this form earlier, or the fixture list had been kinder. It always felt like we would be on an uphill struggle.

[Rick_Muller]

Don’t ignore what a win at Forest could have done for our confidence early in the season after a massively daunting task in the first few games against very good opposition. That really was a sliding doors moment, and I’ve said it before that had that goal stood we would have won, Foster would not have been carded and may not have had such a crash with his mental health.

[claret2018]

If only we’d won every game we’d be top of the league by a mile

[bfcjg]

If only we'd have started the season with Muric.

[equinox]

If you think we've been hard done to, how would you feel if you were an Everton or Forest supporter after having points deducted?

[KRBFC]

Those incidents did not happen in the final seconds of the games - even if VAR came to another decision nobody could predict the end results after those events

Stop blaming VAR and look at the managers decision to start the season with an unproven GK and how he managed to oversee 24 lost points when we were winning games as another possible reason

The Luton one was almost the last kick of the game. Not like you to slag the manager off though, never seen a supposed fan so angry whilst their team is winning.

[taio]

If you think we've been hard done to, how would you feel if you were an Everton or Forest supporter after having points deducted?

That they got off lightly

[equinox]

That they got off lightly

The supporters got off lightly?

[CombatClaret]

This is what I loathe, the Trumpification of the debate. It can't just be a mistake, it has to be a mistake AND a conspiracy.

Every fanbase thinking there is a conspiracy against them is the best proof there isn't one.

Untitled-1.jpg (115.16 KiB) Viewed 2449 times

[taio]

The supporters got off lightly?

No, if I supported either of those I'd think the club got off lightly

[bfcjg]

This is what I loathe, the Trumpification of the debate. It can't just be a mistake, it has to be a mistake AND a conspiracy.

Every fanbase thinking there is a conspiracy against them is the best proof there isn't one.

Untitled-1.jpg

Operation save Everton on show today even commentators amazed that at least the first handball wasn't a penalty
I think it was a stonewall penalty, Tbh

[CombatClaret]

Operation save Everton on show today

Is this Operation Save Everton from the same league that docked them points?

Is the PGMOL in the room with you now?

fb1.jpg (35.38 KiB) Viewed 2372 times

[Stproc]

The EPL / PGMOL have not only to be fair but have to be seen to be fair. They pass neither test.

[Stproc]

The EPL / PGMOL have not only to be fair but have to be seen to be fair. They pass neither test.

[bfcjg]

It was an indepent panel and commission that deducted and returned points not the Premier League. The PL were obliged to do something as their accounts clearly showed a breach.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

We had played Muric from game one, this season is all down to the managers choices unfortunately.

[equinox]

We had played Muric from game one, this season is all down to the managers choices unfortunately.

If we'd played Trafford against Brighton?

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

If we'd played Trafford against Brighton?

He’d have conceded two going off his previous form.

Our points per game prove the point that Muric should never have been dropped in the first place. I can see past two mistakes.

[Zooniverser]

All these ifs and buts are based on Burnley getting extra points for VAR decisions, what about decision against other teams at the bottom? Maybe they'd have more points too.
What about points we've gained that we shouldn't have had through VAR?

Not sure if you are directing that at me but if so I agree with you and I tried to get that point into my post.
As for points gained for us through VAR I have it in my head (without spending time going back through the season in detail) that we are about 6 points worse off thanks to VAR.

I do believe that we are where we are mostly because we've been pretty crap a lot through the season. The point I was trying to make was that even though that is the case I often feel aggrieved when looking at the table and thinking of those two decisions.

[equinox]

He’d have conceded two going off his previous form.

Our points per game prove the point that Muric should never have been dropped in the first place. I can see past two mistakes.

How do you know he wouldn't have scored an overhead kick from the half way line?

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

How do you know he wouldn't have scored an overhead kick from the half way line?

That sounds like something Muric would do tbh

In fact I think Muric would do it from the oppositions corner

[dsr]

He’d have conceded two going off his previous form.

Our points per game prove the point that Muric should never have been dropped in the first place. I can see past two mistakes.

Just out of interest, how many points do you think we would have got from the last 6 games if Trafford had been playing? Do you not think him capable of playing in a 1-1 draw with Brighton, because I think he could do that. (Especially at Brighton at the Turf was a bare shadow of Brighton at their place.) I think Trafford is capable of playing in a stuffing of Sheffield United. I even think he is capable of playing in a side that could beat an out of form Brentford side playing with 10 men who gave us a penalty in the 4th minute. I don't see that Muric has given us 9 points where Trafford would have given us 0.

Still, the next three games will be a good test. If Muric keeps up his average of 1.5 points per game we will get at minimum a win and a draw from Man U-Spurs-Newcastle, so here's hoping.

[alwaysaclaret]

Just out of interest, how many points do you think we would have got from the last 6 games if Trafford had been playing? Do you not think him capable of playing in a 1-1 draw with Brighton, because I think he could do that. (Especially at Brighton at the Turf was a bare shadow of Brighton at their place.) I think Trafford is capable of playing in a stuffing of Sheffield United. I even think he is capable of playing in a side that could beat an out of form Brentford side playing with 10 men who gave us a penalty in the 4th minute. I don't see that Muric has given us 9 points where Trafford would have given us 0.

Still, the next three games will be a good test. If Muric keeps up his average of 1.5 points per game we will get at minimum a win and a draw from Man U-Spurs-Newcastle, so here's hoping.

Without even mentioning the Brighton and Brentford games, just on Saturday at sheff utd we'd have been 2 down in the first 10 minutes with Trafford in the nets, but to stress further muric is light year's ahead of Trafford imo, I know it's been done to death on the subject but fact imo. It was just a dream to get to 20 points with Trafford, now it's reality and we've surpassed it, and even given murics mistakes we're still in the race, and with a real chance of survival as thing's stand.

[Goliath]

I'm not sure why people are still debating Trafford v Muric. We have the answer now and it's quite a resounding one.

[dsr]

Without even mentioning the Brighton and Brentford games, just on Saturday at sheff utd we'd have been 2 down in the first 10 minutes with Trafford in the nets, but to stress further muric is light year's ahead of Trafford imo, I know it's been done to death on the subject but fact imo. It was just a dream to get to 20 points with Trafford, now it's reality and we've surpassed it, and even given murics mistakes we're still in the race, and with a real chance of survival as thing's stand.

Obviously if you believe that Trafford can't make saves, then you're going to want Muric in nets. I understood that Muric's strength was supposed to be how he leads the attack with his passing skills.

Like I said earlier, if Muric really is that good then we ought to be getting 4 or 5 points from the Man U-Newcastle-Spurs games and we should survive. We'll see.

[Bosscat]

....Muric hadn't had his Monty Python moment against
Brighton.

If only Muric had been in the nets from match one ...

[CrosspoolClarets]

Two more wins and Muric will have more points than Trafford this season, they are currently on 14 and 9. Games played are 28 and 6.

Spending up to £18m on a rookie kid keeper was inexplicable, throwing him straight in was bizarre and self defeating, keeping him in for 28 games was, if we were any other team, a sackable offence.

Vinny has a lot of errors to make up for. We have been shafted by officials, but most of the relegation will be on him, no doubt. He has to stay and rectify those errors, which I am sure he will.

[dsr]

Two more wins and Muric will have more points than Trafford this season, they are currently on 14 and 9. Games played are 28 and 6.

You're forgetting that Muric got wins in the League Cup against Forest and Salford. He already has more wins than Trafford. You can't (in fact, you don't) take onto account the quality of the opposition.