Would you vote the same again?

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:59 pm

claretspice wrote:Whilst there are undoubtedly benefits of inflation, it has to be carefully managed if those benefits aren't to exceed the downsides. And it is very difficult to manage inflation when it is being driven by foreign currency fluctuations based on the perception the country's economy is not a good bet, and so the country is, in effect, getting much poorer relative to the rest of the world.

The idea that we can have an export-led recovery is currently pie in the sky for the simple reason that we do not have many export manufacturers of any size, and indeed many of those we do have are here because we're in the single market so may well depart if we leave it. Creating an export manufacturer base is a long term job and we've barely touched the sides of it so far (its a bit like the youth system at Burnley - the infrastructure takes a couple of years to turn around after it was largely destroyed, and it then takes several more years for us to start getting a return). I entirely agree that it as a good aspiration but we have to be realistic about the impact improved export environment will have in the near term.

And in any event, many of the benefits of exports being cheaper are offset by the fact we are heavily reliant on imports from the rest of the world. Inflation in raw materials affects exporters, inflation in food affects everyone and either ends up with us all getting materially poorer (affecting discretionary spend in leisure etc. which is the bedrock of our consumer economy currently, jeopardising thousands of jobs) unless wages go up, in which case the benefits of cheaper exports may well be wiped out. And I haven't even mentioned the negative effects of leaving the single market which in turn have the potential to make the UK a far less attractive place for exporters.

Inflation is a good thing, but in this context it is more likely to be rather scary.

Can you re type it in plain English please

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:00 pm

One further point - it is also correct in theory that inflation can be good for government debt by reducing its real-terms value.

However, if the tax base is decimated because the City of London loses passporting rights, then the amount of borrowing we will have to do to maintain the public infrastructure is frankly frightening and that will in practical terms more than wipe out that theoretical benefit because the actual value of that debt will be an awful lot more than had we not left the Single Market. Even if we don't lose passporting, then a prolongued period of poor growth as a result of uncertainty will reduce corporate profits and so taxes, and potentially with it income taxes, a reduction on non-food spend reducing the VAT take, and so on, will leave us with a lot less money going into government. There is absolutely no way that exporters will cover the gap in the medium term so that will need significant extra borrowing. All at a time when the ability of the UK to borrow at low rates will be tested by the lack of confidence of investors in the pound, and at a time when as we've already discussed the cost of everything the government spends its money on will almost certainly go up.

This cannot be dressed up as a set of circumstances which are likely to be good for the national public finances over the next decade, it really cannot.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:00 pm

Walton wrote:Looking at the ONS' data on NINO registrations, the top 5 EU nations far outweigh the top 5 non-EU nations for migration to the UK.

The truth is - we don't actually have good enough figures.

For the record, NINO allocation is shoddy, unprofessional and should not be used as a proxy for immigration because it isn't. This is particularly true of illegal immigration, which is impossible from the EU.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:01 pm

Dazzler wrote:Can you re type it in plain English please

It is pretty straightforward Dazzler. To be honest, if you don't understand it, you didn't pay enough attention to the potential consequences of Brexit when you voted out.

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:05 pm

claretspice wrote:It is pretty straightforward Dazzler. To be honest, if you don't understand it, you didn't pay enough attention to the potential consequences of Brexit when you voted out.

Just playing along with what Keith wrote

Jeez some people..typical of remoaners.

claretspice · Post by **claretspice** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:08 pm

Dazzler wrote:Just playing along with what Keith wrote

Jeez some people..typical of remoaners.

I'm not a "remoaner". I'm someone who voted remain, thinks voting out was a mistake but we are where we are. Quoting facts about the economic implications of where we are isn't moaning. We have to make the best of it. I can understand people's drivers for voting out and I suspect there are massive lessons for the establishment to learn. Unfortunately, that comes at the expense of my generation and my generation's children.

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:16 pm

I watched nearly everything concerning the referendum before the big day.
Took nearly everything on board.Asked folk of more intellect than me which way to vote best for my son.
Vast majority said LEAVE!

keith1879 · Post by **keith1879** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:18 pm

claretspice wrote:I'm not a "remoaner". I'm someone who voted remain, thinks voting out was a mistake but we are where we are. Quoting facts about the economic implications of where we are isn't moaning. We have to make the best of it. I can understand people's drivers for voting out and I suspect there are massive lessons for the establishment to learn. Unfortunately, that comes at the expense of my generation and my generation's children.

Again - a good well reasoned post. I would happily accept the result of a vote where it was obvious what we were voting for - but this was a case of a choice between two courses of action with no good explanation as to why we should take either. In such a case you should always go with the status quo simply because of the truly massive cost of the reorganisation itself.

jurek · Post by **jurek** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:26 pm

Dazzler I think it is stretching it a little to state a vast majority said LEAVE.
A vast majority in my mind would be closer to 65-60% to 35-40%.
Wouldn't you agree?

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:42 pm

Of whom I asked regarding voting for my son the vast majority said Vote Leave.

Is that too difficult to understand ?

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:51 pm

Paul Waine wrote:Hi Lowbank,

Population of Norway is 5.2 million (end 2015), while the population of the UK is 65 million - or only (approx.) 55 million if we count England alone.

I've never understood why UK should negotiate the same deal as Norway, a country more than 10 times smaller than the UK, or Switzerland (8.3 million, 8 times smaller). The only logic appears to be "these are the deals that have already been negotiated."

Is this "lack of imagination" on behalf of the UK or the EU or the media?

I would have to watch the parlimentary programme again to be exact, but the experts were of the opinion that you would likely start your negotiations based either one of the existing agreements or start on your own grounds. basing it on a preexisting agreement could speed up the process but they didnt feel any current agreement fitted the bill for the UK. They also felt that an every case the UK would be worse off.
I honestly think if they had shown it on prime TV before the vote many leave voters would have changed to remain, not me I might add.

I was not suggesting we do a norway type deal, but the experts felt the EU would expect what we pay now and per head thats the same as Norway.
I have seen the Hard Brexit comments made today, if we left the single market I think the demise of the EU would be fairly rapid.
As for Scotland voting to leave the UK, they have a deficit larger than Greece. Basically Scotlands bankrupt so if they go it alone, good luck to them. They will need it unless the oil revs come back soon.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:56 pm

jurek wrote:Dazzler I think it is stretching it a little to state a vast majority said LEAVE.
A vast majority in my mind would be closer to 65-60% to 35-40%.
Wouldn't you agree?

Burnley voted

Remain: 14,462

Leave: 28,854

I think thats a vast majority if you asked people in burnley, In fact I was surprised remain got that many from the people I spoke to

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 4:58 pm

Burnley's voting has nowt to do with it.

Gibraltar voted 99% to remain - doesn't matter in a countrywide referendum.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:02 pm

I voted remain. My main reason was because the Leave campaign gave no promises to protect human rights or stand by EU environmental targets.

Leave won by a narrow margin. I'd still vote Remain if it were re-run tomorrow.

For some reason the Leave victory has led to certain Leave voters deciding I'm not allowed to be concerned and speak up about with how the leaving process is shaping up. This is disappointing.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:04 pm

Falcon wrote:For some reason the Leave victory has led to certain Leave voters deciding I'm not allowed to be concerned and speak up about with how the leaving process is shaping up. This is disappointing.

Which ones? People on here, or in the outside world?

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:06 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Burnley voted

Remain: 14,462

Leave: 28,854

I think thats a vast majority if you asked people in burnley, In fact I was surprised remain got that many from the people I spoke to

A good few of the people who I spoke to who voted remain in Burnley did so out of fear of a recession and George Osbornes punishment budget. No surprise really, you tell people who can barely afford to pay their rent that they will lose about 4k a year if we vote leave then they will probably only do one thing.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:07 pm

Lowbankclaret wrote:Burnley voted

Remain: 14,462
Leave: 28,854
I think thats a vast majority if you asked people in burnley, In fact I was surprised remain got that many from the people I spoke to

Maybe the 14,462 are all employed by European firms based locally, or work in businesses that were set up using the not insignificant amount of EU funding that has helped rejuvenate the area.

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:09 pm

Quite a few folk of whom I spoke to on the referendum who voted leave do not live in Burnley.

Clitheroe,St Annes,Wilmslow,Lune Valley and the Dales.

Colburn_Claret · Post by **Colburn_Claret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:12 pm

A majority is a majority, quoting percentages is straw clutching.

Considering the biased media and political arguments promoting remain, the very fact Brexit won shows the strength of feeling of the British people.

The scare stories still continue. Considering that most pundits have gone back on their original prophecies of doom and gloom, there is no reason to believe the latest forecasts either.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:12 pm

Jurek was questioning dazzler saying majority he spoke to said vote leave. I f he lives in Burnley thats no surprise based on the vote.
Thats what I was refering to Falcon

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:14 pm

dsr wrote:Which ones? People on here, or in the outside world?

Can't say I've seen it on here (well done everyone). Usually seen in comments sections on newspaper articles, news sites and worst of all Facebook.

"You lost, get over it" being a favourite.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:17 pm

Dazzler wrote:Quite a few folk of whom I spoke to on the referendum who voted leave do not live in Burnley.

Clitheroe,St Annes,Wilmslow,Lune Valley and the Dales.

This is a v important point actually. It wasn't just old industrial towns who voted to leave, there were some very affluent and "leafy" places too. It was a pretty odd affair all round really, but it does suggest that people voted leave for different reasons and expect different outcomes.
One oddity was that some of the areas with really low immigration and a lot of jobs dependent on the EU, (such as Sunderland) voted leave,whilst other areas with high levels of immigration voted remain.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:23 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote: Considering the biased media ........

That is one point that can be proved not to be true. The newspapers were overwhelmingly and in some cases hysterically anti- EU and pro-Brexit.
(The Sun, The Mail, The Express and The Telegraph have much higher sales figures than "Remainers" The Times, The Guardian and The Mirror)

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:45 pm

Just to put some 'meat on the bones' I'll give you their professions
(Sorry if I have offended you vegans-Not

)

Clitheroe-Firefighter
St Annes-Managers in Care (Learning Disabilities)
Wilmslow-Teachers
Lune Valley-Builder
Dales-Farmers

longsidetrumpet · Post by **longsidetrumpet** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:02 pm

Yes, I'd vote Remain in a heartbeat. What a tragic future is in store for my children and grandchildren.

Lowbankclaret · Post by **Lowbankclaret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:26 pm

longsidetrumpet wrote:Yes, I'd vote Remain in a heartbeat. What a tragic future is in store for my children and grandchildren.

Not sure what you base that statement on, I am not convinced.

There are severals countries who already what to do trade deals with us who we cannot deal with whilst in the EU. There are massive oppertunities out there.

We dont need to be stiffled by the EU .

If they push for hard Brexit I think they may regret it.

SmudgetheClaret · Post by **SmudgetheClaret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:51 pm

Yes to leave the road to communism...

Paul Waine · Post by **Paul Waine** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:10 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Dsr/Paul - I get the concerns about the way the EU is going, but it depends on how willing you are to accept change.

Whatever happens (as far as I'm concerned), I'll still be British, and English, and a part of Europe.

You are both knocking on a bit, so you be long gone (apologies for the terminology!!) but I look at my kids (for example, and I know other people will have differing views) and they will happily be chatting to the Hungarian and Polish kids at their school, without drawing any negative connotations from it.

Thats the future, not some vaguely remembered "better time" that the likes of Farage go on about.

The rise of anti-immigration rhetoric, the almost certain economic impact and the resulting scramble to heap yet more blame on the blameless (immigrants) is not something that I'm ever going to be comfortable with, and if stopping that means being more integrated into our closest neighbours and allies, then I'm happy with that.

I fully understand others are not, but it doesn't mean that you are right.

Hi Lancs,

You are tough debater; yes, I'm in my 7th decade - but my financial consultant/pension advisor tells me I need to plan to make my pension fund last 30 years - and that's after a heart attack early this year! (I'm doing my best to make it).

Of course, at my age I don't need to vote for myself. I've got 3 grown children and many nieces and nephews and a wider family beyond, including some in a 3rd generation. Maybe I'll be lucky also to be around when there is a 4th generation coming after me.

My vote is for all of them - and everyone else both in this country and in other countries. Intellectually/spiritually/emotionally I'm a "citizen of the world." I'm working now as a consultant, my client has a global business, offices in Asia, Europe and the Americas (I was on the phone with Houston yesterday, it will be the same with Singapore in a few days or so). I've been employed in a number of "global" roles: hired staff and led teams across 3 continents on a number of occasions. My small team in my last role were 3 x Italians, 1 x Malaysian and 1 x Guyana (formerly British Guiana). My friends come from all nations and from multiple racial backgrounds/heritages. I care for them all - and I think of them all when I'm voting (of course, my votes have always been limited to UK elections/referendums). My vote was not a selfish vote.

I'm not "anti-immigration." I've lived and worked in Netherlands and USA in years past - in addition to working globally from a London/UK base for the majority of my working life - my employers include firms from Japan, Arab Gulf and USA. (Even at my age, I'm still ready to work elsewhere and experience other cultures).

Yes, there are obviously some who don't recognise the debt we all owe to Poland: the experienced Polish fighter pilots were the foundation of the UK's survival through the difficult days of the Battle of Britain. Of course, I'm not one of them.

My children - all now grown adults - also had friends at school from immigrant backgrounds. I was pleased, proud and encouraged that for their generation, differences of race or nationality (and all the other diversities) are not differences to be feared, rather values to be celebrated and the foundations for great friendships.

Let's take courage in our democracy. Let's acknowledge the outcome of the referendum - and be thankful we all got the chance to have a vote. Let's now move forward and make a success of the new opportunities we have, both in the UK and with the rest of the world, including our friends in Europe.

Barry_Chuckle · Post by **Barry_Chuckle** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:19 pm

Great post Paul Waine.

AndrewJB · Post by **AndrewJB** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:32 pm

Regardless of which side you were on, one inescapable fact is it has been extremely divisive. Fifty-two percent to forty-eight percent - and I would say this were the result the other way around - is a result that leaves a lot of people unhappy. The parallel Tory campaigns were spiteful and dishonest (the other parties were mostly ignored). Osborne and Cameron were appalling in the way they invoked the spectres of war and financial ruin. But then Gove and Johnson were equally bad in pushing outright lies (£350 Million a week) and nonsense (what do experts know?). Farage dehumanising a long queue of miserable refugees (not entirely different from one of the many columns of Jews the Nazis marched off to murder). It was awful, and the real losers in all of it were the British public.

OdihamClaret · Post by **OdihamClaret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:47 pm

Saw an amusing comment by the Luxembourg PM a couple of days ago: " ... Before, they were in and they had many opt-outs; now they want to be out with many opt-ins..". Just about sums the position up.

Surprisingly, the most UK friendly comment was from Portuguese PM: " "We want to work towards a constructive, open and close relationship with the UK, both bilaterally and also in terms of the UK's relationship with the EU as a whole. The UK can leave the EU, but the UK doesn't stop being a big European partner."

Overall though, one gets the collective impression from this week's EU politicians statements that they want to give us a real hard lesson. Not all need to sabre rattle for home electorate consumption - as Merkel and Hollande do.

Read in FT that UK gov't lawyers say we have upwards of €20bn of ongoing legal liabilities (outside of the budget) , post Brexit, that the EU will not want us to renege on. Perhaps there is a spark of leverage we have to secure a transitional trade arrangement. If we do walk from these liabilities though, I imagine there will be no agreement, not even on WTO rules basis.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:41 pm

Got to remember Odiham that Portugal is Englands oldest ally.

Great post Paul btw

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:45 pm

I voted in. Yes i would vote in again.
That said we have voted for out. Lets just get on with it and make this country great again. Uncertainity is not good for anyone or any business.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:08 pm

I believe that when the British people were originally asked about joining back in 1973 they said yes to joining a relatively small group of like minded countries in a kind of closely tied trading syndicate. Fine. But by the time of the referendum it had become a conglomerate of almost 30 very diverse countries with extremely close political as well as economic ties with an ever increasing degree of centralism. This is what people decided to call a halt to before it became irreversible. Had the EU stuck to its original principles and intentions and left it at that it would have been fine and would have thrived, but the moves (perceived or real) towards a super state with the inherent loss of our own autonomy have caused us to back away. That to some extent is a real shame because we'll lose the good things in terms of trade and shared market etc, but the bad had started to far outweigh the good in many people's minds. That may have been simply media hysteria, but people became nervous and voted with their feet. Like me. And I'd have to make the same decision again! (Reluctantly - again!)

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:07 am

AndrewJB wrote:Regardless of which side you were on, one inescapable fact is it has been extremely divisive. Fifty-two percent to forty-eight percent - and I would say this were the result the other way around - is a result that leaves a lot of people unhappy.

I also think that whatever "brexit" eventually looks like will leave at least a sizeable minority of leave voters dissatisfied, if not unhappy, whereas staying in would have satisfied all of the remain voters.

Not suggesting we should reverse a democratic decision, but it's a crying shame imo.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:21 am

'Words, words, words.', my favorite quote from Shakespeare (Hamlet). That is all you are spouting on this topic. It is not going to make make a ha'porth of difference, the decision was to leave the EU, what more do you need to know?

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:10 am

Greenmile wrote:I also think that whatever "brexit" eventually looks like will leave at least a sizeable minority of leave voters dissatisfied, if not unhappy, whereas staying in would have satisfied all of the remain voters.

Not suggesting we should reverse a democratic decision, but it's a crying shame imo.

I doubt that staying in would have satisfied all the remain voters. It didn't last time.

Think about it. One of the Remainers whinges is that young people voted in while old people voted out. The best estimate of over 65's vote was that 61% voted to leave.

But remember 1975? The majority of voters in favour of entering, or confirming the entry into, the EEC was 67-33. People of all ages voted strongly to join. And these are the ame people, or the survivors of those people, who voted so strongly to leave nowadays. Clearly they weren't content with their vote last time round.

Greenmile · Post by **Greenmile** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:16 am

dsr wrote:I doubt that staying in would have satisfied all the remain voters. It didn't last time.

Think about it. One of the Remainers whinges is that young people voted in while old people voted out. The best estimate of over 65's vote was that 61% voted to leave.

But remember 1975? The majority of voters in favour of entering, or confirming the entry into, the EEC was 67-33. People of all ages voted strongly to join. And these are the ame people, or the survivors of those people, who voted so strongly to leave nowadays. Clearly they weren't content with their vote last time round.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Many leave voters, particularly the older ones, have used "this is not what we signed up for in 1975" as a reason for their decision (which is fair enough), but a remain vote was a vote for the status quo. I realise that there is no such thing as a permanent status quo and that these things will always evolve over time but - within the timeframe it is going to take for Brexit to be fully worked out and implemented - I couldn't see the EU evolving to such an extent that remain voters may regret their vote.

On the other hand, if you voted leave to reduce immigration, for example, and the negotiations end up with us accepting freedom of movement (or if you voted so we could give the NHS £350m a week

), I think you would immediately be unhappy with the outcome.

firstclaret · Post by **firstclaret** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:17 pm

Nobody has any idea, we've been governed by Europe for so long that our politicians are going to have to actually work, instead of being happy to let Brussels make all the rules, while drinking in their subsidised bar, then sleeping it off in the Commons.

If we don't like the rules, then we will be able to vote them out.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:22 pm

Greenmile wrote:I'm not sure I understand your point. Many leave voters, particularly the older ones, have used "this is not what we signed up for in 1975" as a reason for their decision (which is fair enough), but a remain vote was a vote for the status quo. I realise that there is no such thing as a permanent status quo and that these things will always evolve over time but - within the timeframe it is going to take for Brexit to be fully worked out and implemented - I couldn't see the EU evolving to such an extent that remain voters may regret their vote.

On the other hand, if you voted leave to reduce immigration, for example, and the negotiations end up with us accepting freedom of movement (or if you voted so we could give the NHS £350m a week ), I think you would immediately be unhappy with the outcome.

The point is, you claim that everyone who voted to stay in 2016 would have been satisfied with the long-term effects of the vote. And yet at least half of the surviving Remain voters from 1975 have since changed their minds - they are clearly not happy with the effects of their vote.

Even if the Brexit negotiations resulted in a rotten deal equating to what we have now, we would still be better off in two ways. One, we would still be free to negotiate trade deals (or free trade deals) with countries like the USA which the EU does not have a deal with; two, we could at least withdraw from that rotten deal without having to ask the EU's permission, if we got a set of politicians with a bit more backbone. So I could well see myself being unhappy with the outcome, but not as unhappy as I would be if the vote had gone the other way.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:22 pm

I love the idea that we'll get a better deal with the USA than the EU managed.

Oh, because Trump said so?

I'd rather believe whats written on the side of a bus.........oh wait

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:53 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I love the idea that we'll get a better deal with the USA than the EU managed.

Well, there's only two possibilities. We get a better deal than the EU, or we don't get a deal at all. The EU has been unable to agree any deal with the USA. Achieving something better than nothing at all isn't an impossible target.

Gnulty · Post by **Gnulty** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:04 pm

Some don't get the point of a EU membership...some of them think that D.Trump is a fine candidate for the job...some of us are stupid all of the time...all of us are stupid sometimes...referendums are just stupid.....Some guys have all the luck! UTC!

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:09 pm

Just like that.

No offense mate, but you'll more than likely to have shuffled off the mortal coil before we get deals as complex as they are going to be sorted.

Hell, i don't fancy my chances of seeing it either!

RingoMcCartney · Post by **RingoMcCartney** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:12 am

What's really funny is that people who class themselves as being socialist. are highly concerned with trade deals

Socialists used to be concerned with adverse effects on the working class of trade deals.

The times they are a changing...

Dazzler · Post by **Dazzler** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:13 am

Hang on a minute !

What the feck happened ?
we play a big part in liberating France from them German scumbags and then they stealthily get together and try to tell us how to run our own country.

Feck that for a game of soldiers
We should be calling the shots..even shooting em

Right_winger · Post by **Right_winger** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:26 am

Id vote to leave again in a heartbeat.
Personally I wouldn't even negotiate with the EU before we leave. just tell them to stick it and cut all funding then we can start negotiations.

Hopefully the EU will collapse after this anyway as its not fit for purpose.

ClaretMoffitt · Post by **ClaretMoffitt** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:16 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:What's really funny is that people who class themselves as being socialist. are highly concerned with trade deals

Socialists used to be concerned with adverse effects on the working class of trade deals.

The times they are a changing...

I saw anarchists protesting against brexit in June. Think about that for a second, anarchists protesting in favour of maintaining the status quo and in favour of globalisation. These people have no idea who they are or what they want. They are just virtue signalling hipsters stuck in an identity crisis.

nil_desperandum · Post by **nil_desperandum** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:03 am

Right_winger wrote:Id vote to leave again in a heartbeat.
Personally I wouldn't even negotiate with the EU before we leave. just tell them to stick it and cut all funding then we can start negotiations.
.

I'm sure that would turn out really well, especially when we then try to negotiate with the rest of the world having broken treaties and reneged on our obligations and responsibilities.
That's before we think of the short term implications of that for Europe wide issues such as security, and of course the fact that at present we rely on EU countries for 27% our food, and that over half of our power (fuel) comes from or via Europe.
Not to mention the position of companies like Nissan etc ..........................................................................
Oh,- and also protecting the rights of the millions of UK citizens who currently either live in Europe or work out there.

Who honestly knows what the future holds for the UK outside the EU, and indeed the EU without us, but anyone that thinks the upcoming negotiations aren't important has a poor grasp of the international situation and the depth to which we are currently in Europe - (not the same thing as the EU).

dpinsussex · Post by **dpinsussex** » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:12 am

Blackrod wrote:Would I pay more for holidays and fuel in the short term but benefit from controlling our borders and making our own laws in the future ? Yes. Some people really are short sighted. Would I pay more to protect our rights. Yes.

Its all well and good you being willing to pay more but how many people that voted leave in the traditionally poorer north can actually afford to pay more. Where do you expect the extra cash to come from ?