Self-Driving Cars

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:38 pm

I've been reading that it's predicted that by 2020 there will be self driving taxis worldwide. Volkswagen say they'll have self-driving cars on the road by 2019 and BMW say they'll launch a self-driving electric vehicle by 2021.

What are you thoughts on this - would you be happy to catch a taxi which will drive you to the airpot without anybody in the front?

With drones getting better each week, it wouldn't surprise me to see eventually, self-flying small 4-5 seater planes,where everything is operated via satelite and sensors, making sure nobody crashes into each other during flight.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:45 pm

When they can make a computer that doesn't crash, I'll think about trusting them with my car.

Seriously, I don't fancy it. Maybe I would be safer in a self-driving vehicle, statistically; time will tell. But I think I'd trust myself rather than a machine and take my own chances.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:47 pm

I'm all for it, if it means its easier for me to eat whilst on my way home.

Ps I'll post a more serious answer in a bit

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 pm

It's one of those entertaining studies where when drivers are asked if they think they are above average ability about 90% say yes.

Road accidents are the cause of a huge number of deaths, I'd be more than happy with electronic drivers who aren't on the phone, pondering what to have for tea, knackered after a long day, still drunk from the night before, etc. etc

NottsClaret · Post by **NottsClaret** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:51 pm

Sounds good. I often find watching the road can distract from texting.

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:53 pm

Most of the cars around us are self driving, well, thats the charitable way of describing it

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:22 pm

Will it be animal friendly and anchor on when one runs across the road or will it make mincemeat out of them.. Suppose it depends on if the programmer is an animal lover.

What will happen if a bird flies across the windscreen,how does it distinguish between bird and a plastic bag blown in the wind..
How will it cope with the horrible pot holes in our roads?
How will it cope with road rage and taxis cutting it up,buses pulling out in front without indicating?
How much will insurance be?

Answers on a postcard please to. yourlifeintheirhands@selfdrivingcars

Sutton-Claret · Post by **Sutton-Claret** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:28 pm

I like the idea of them but wouldn't trust them at all - too many unknowns for the car to deal with. Could see it working if every car on the road was self driving where they all interacted with each other

One good point if it happens - you'd never need a taxi home from the pub

ClaretLoup · Post by **ClaretLoup** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:35 pm

Being trialled in Milton Keynes shortly.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:36 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Will it be animal friendly and anchor on when one runs across the road or will it make mincemeat out of them.. Suppose it depends on if the programmer is an animal lover.

What will happen if a bird flies across the windscreen,how does it distinguish between bird and a plastic bag blown in the wind..
How will it cope with the horrible pot holes in our roads?
How will it cope with road rage and taxis cutting it up,buses pulling out in front without indicating?
How much will insurance be?

Answers on a postcard please to. yourlifeintheirhands@selfdrivingcars

You're not meant to swerve to avoid an animal anyway.

MarkGreen · Post by **MarkGreen** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:37 pm

Tesla have very very recently revealed that all of their new models including the model 3 have the necessary hardware for full self driving capabilities.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-te ... edirect=no" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

VW and BMW have some catching up to do, Tesla are 3 years ahead of them already

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:39 pm

Sidney1st wrote:You're not meant to swerve to avoid an animal anyway.

We all know that Sydney,but would a self drive car know that? Not much difference in the size of a large dog and a child,how's it going to distinguish that..

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:41 pm

MarkGreen wrote:Tesla have very very recently revealed that all of their new models including the model 3 have the necessary hardware for full self driving capabilities.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-te ... edirect=no" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

VW and BMW have some catching up to do, Tesla are 3 years ahead of them already

Does it have a "wind down the window and "look where you're going ya blind Bastid " facility?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:46 pm

Right then, serious answer time...

Car manufacturers have been building towards this for a long time.
Electronic accelerators were one of the first arrivals.
Electric steering columns have been used since the early 2000's, I think fiat were one of the first to use them on their Punto, but it had a non electric back up.
Steering columns are in the process of being eliminated and some vehicles have already disposed of them I think.
Look at the cost of a steering column for a Nissan micra from about 2009 ish model and you'll cough at the price.

Electric brakes weren't far behind either, along with things like electric power steering pumps/racks etc.
The aim was to reduce weight as always, with an eye to making a self driving car.

Most people aren't really aware or interested in these changes that have been happening, mainly about where their cup holder is etc, but they're more then happy to complain about the cost of repairs.

I think it's Ford that have the self parking system now and that's only possible with the electric steering and braking advances.

The new Land Rover Discovery that's due out next year can actually be driven using a mobile phone app, although only at low speed and in close proximity - in car parks or tight spaces.

I live near the A34 in Oxfordshire and they're constantly blaming the road itself for accidents when its more then likely poor driving ability that's the issue.

Self driving cars you ask about?
I'm all for it, would make travelling the country easier, I could go to sleep on the long drives to see family.
However they do need to do more to prevent hackers being able to take control of them.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:48 pm

conyoviejo wrote:We all know that Sydney,but would a self drive car know that? Not much difference in the size of a large dog and a child,how's it going to distinguish that..

If all cars are self drive then they'll currently stop for anything in its path, easy enough.

People panic and serve, losing control and probably making an accident worse.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:53 pm

Cars have rain sensors, lights that switch on automatically, running lights on all the time etc.

These are designed to make it safer on the road in the event their human driver is a little bit dim.

Moving forwards all modern cars will also have cameras fitted to enable them to stop hitting cars in front, prevent lane drifting etc.

Just means if you replace a windscreen, wing mirror or suspension/steering component you'll need to get the cameras realigned or your insurance is invalid apparently.
Its expensive to get them realigned though, so queue more moaning by car owners who're always looking to have the best cars repaired on the cheap and then accuse garages of ripping them off when they don't fully understand what's on their own car.

LoveCurryPies · Post by **LoveCurryPies** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:16 pm

Most passenger planes are on autopilot 95% of the time.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:21 pm

: C__Data_Users_DefApps_AppData_INTERNETEXPLORER_Temp_Saved Images_images(1).jpg (7.55 KiB) Viewed 4261 times

LoveCurryPies wrote:Most passenger planes are on autopilot 95% of the time.

dsr · Post by **dsr** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:35 pm

LoveCurryPies wrote:Most passenger planes are on autopilot 95% of the time.

But they don't have a collision avoidance system.

How do automatic cars know who or what to avoid? If another car comes across the road at them, do they know to sit tight and let themselves be hit rather than drive over the small child on the pavement? Bearing in mind that more pedestrians are killed than car travellers, do they have a system for slowing down on recognising pedestrians who currently on the footpath but may be about to walk into the road?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:47 pm

No, but a self driving car won't be speeding and it's cameras/sensors will have a quicker reaction time then a human.

Advances in technology will ease some of the concerns you're having, but they've been working on and testing these cars for a fair while now.

aggi · Post by **aggi** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:11 pm

Tesla have the hardware but that's the easy part, it doesn't yet have the software to be fully self-driving (unfortunately as shown by the one on "autopilot" that crashed into a white truck). Germany have banned them from using the term autopilot.

Google's self-driving cars have done millions of miles and have been involved in (I think) 2 accidents that were their fault.

For how the self-driving cars see the world, the second half of this video is interesting https://www.ted.com/talks/chris_urmson_ ... anguage=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lucs86 · Post by **lucs86** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:14 pm

I'm all for them, it's pretty much inevitable that this is where we're going, the roads will become safer and after a bit more efficient, traffic should just move better without people involved. Tesla are pushing hard in America and I know Uber have been talking about driverless cabs for a while. I can imagine we'll drag our feet on it here but can see America and parts of Europe going for it in the coming years. I've read somewhere it's thought that haulage firms could lead the way with driverless lorries, once a few do it they all will.

On the moral question of will they swerve to avoid a cat etc. give this a go, it's pretty good fun http://moralmachine.mit.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:26 pm

lucs86 wrote:I'm all for them, it's pretty much inevitable that this is where we're going, the roads will become safer and after a bit more efficient, traffic should just move better without people involved. Tesla are pushing hard in America and I know Uber have been talking about driverless cabs for a while. I can imagine we'll drag our feet on it here but can see America and parts of Europe going for it in the coming years. I've read somewhere it's thought that haulage firms could lead the way with driverless lorries, once a few do it they all will.

On the moral question of will they swerve to avoid a cat etc. give this a go, it's pretty good fun http://moralmachine.mit.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Driverless Lorries..more people on the dole..

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:30 pm

conyoviejo wrote:Driverless Lorries..more people on the dole..

Please step forward the idea of people being given x amount of money from the state, I can't remember the proper term for it, but it's been mooted before.

ablueclaret · Post by **ablueclaret** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:36 pm

Need new roads just for them.

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:37 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Please step forward the idea of people being given x amount of money from the state, I can't remember the proper term for it, but it's been mooted before.

Scroungers ?

brexit · Post by **brexit** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:42 pm

As someone is working on the avoidance algorithms for self driving cars we are facing a few problems.
1) Reliable LIDAR hardware ( that images the road) needs to drop below £1000 before we can get them on the roads.
2) We need help in deciding what the cars priorities should have. If you have time please go to http://moralmachine.mit.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and undertake the test.

Imploding Turtle · Post by **Imploding Turtle** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:49 pm

A couple of excellent relevent videos by CGP Grey

The Simple Solution to Traffic
Humans need not apply

The traffic one gives an excellent reason not to tailgate, or cutting people off, beyond the fact that it's dangerous.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:01 pm

ablueclaret wrote:Need new roads just for them.

No we don't.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:04 pm

brexit wrote:As someone is working on the avoidance algorithms for self driving cars we are facing a few problems.
1) Reliable LIDAR hardware ( that images the road) needs to drop below £1000 before we can get them on the roads.
2) We need help in deciding what the cars priorities should have. If you have time please go to http://moralmachine.mit.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and undertake the test.

I haven't finished it, but what a bizarre test.

Seems to be concentrating on sudden brake failure more then anything else....

keith1879 · Post by **keith1879** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:45 pm

Thinking about it from a project implementation point of view. if you actually mean cars that can drive themselves safely on any road in the country then it seems to me that you are talking about something so complex that you can never ever say it has been fully tested. In terms of complexity it makes the Apollo program look simple. Thinking about risk - NASA were putting at risk the lives of about 20 people who had volunteered and were highly trained whereas the self driving car puts the lives of every single person in the country at risk.
Technically I have no doubt that it is possible - and in fact potentially safer than a human driver. I'm just not convinced that we will ever be able to trust the idea.

conyoviejo · Post by **conyoviejo** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:49 pm

It's nearly as bad as trusting your wife driving the car ..

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:52 pm

keith1879 wrote: I'm just not convinced that we will ever be able to trust the idea.

I'd rather trust a self driving car then some of the complete idiots I see driving around on a daily basis.

I wonder what people who seem to hug their steering wheel will do if the car will drive itself?

Joe14 · Post by **Joe14** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:51 pm

Driving instructors won't be required soon

starting_11 · Post by **starting_11** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:33 pm

Not being funny but I'd prefer to be driven by a computer by the "types" who normally drive taxis. Being un-racialist, I'd go as far as saying that these people don't have the mental capacity to operate a vehicle.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:39 am

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:56 am

Yeah I expect so nutsinmay.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:53 am

So what happens if the technology fails on a lorry whilst going past a school at home time? Just go over the lolly pop lady and pupils? Good idea but can't see it being safe. You'll have to make the equivalent of preflight checks before every journey.

Quicknick · Post by **Quicknick** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:55 am

I'd be delighted if all cars were computer driven as long as motorcycles weren't. I never go in a car. Hate them.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:10 pm

Dyched wrote:So what happens if the technology fails on a lorry whilst going past a school at home time? Just go over the lolly pop lady and pupils? Good idea but can't see it being safe. You'll have to make the equivalent of preflight checks before every journey.

Lorries are currently checked more regularly before every journey, that's mandatory, its 95% of cars that aren't checked before every journey, due to lack of knowledge/ignorance or a simple desire to do so.

Rules/regulations could be put in place that self driving lorries aren't allowed down certain roads at certain times etc.

Self driving vehicles are going to happen, it's inevitable.

I'd also like to see buses and taxis made electric/hybrid, especially in the larger cities.

In regards to bigger lorries, it's a bit surprising that they haven't been banned from certain cities/roads as yet.

Wile E Coyote · Post by **Wile E Coyote** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:12 pm

It would be nice if the self driving cars still drove too close to other road users and cut in at the last minute near roadworks, at least we'd have both hands free to flick vee's at the occupants of the neighbouring vehicle.

If it be your will · Post by **If it be your will** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:18 pm

keith1879 · Post by **keith1879** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:37 pm

Sidney1st wrote:I'd rather trust a self driving car then some of the complete idiots I see driving around on a daily basis.

If it worked yes. But I've seen many big and expensive computer programs be implemented (or sometimes abandoned) and there is no way on earth that I would trust my life to the quality of software and testing employed. The self-driving car (and more particularly it's mass adaptation throughout the country) is based on the massively complex interaction of many computer systems and I don't believe that it will ever be properly tested.

Theoretically I agree - it should be safer. In practice I doubt that it will.

We now have record levels of traffic on the roads and deaths and serious injuries at or near record LOW levels - without the self-driving car.

FactualFrank · Post by **FactualFrank** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:43 pm

Regarding safety, one thing I'm absolutely sure will happen and that's kids trying to purposely step out infront of them, either to narrowly miss them, or to make them stop (and not moving out of the way to let it carry on).

You'll also no doubt have them used for transporting drugs or used as get-away vehicles, that sort of thing.

When software companies release software, they often don't bother trying to figure out all of the errors. They instead let the customers do that for them. The customers then report back with the problem and the company/software writers then fix the error. That could also happen with these - the cars won't be fool proof until Joe Bloggs has been in one and experienced an error, not noticed by the car designers.

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:56 pm

What does this mean for getaway drivers? Is this the end of bank jobs?

Seriously though, what about the emergency services?

Or terrorists for that matter, planting a bomb in a car and sending to a city centre?

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:00 pm

Sidney1st wrote:Lorries are currently checked more regularly before every journey, that's mandatory, its 95% of cars that aren't checked before every journey, due to lack of knowledge/ignorance or a simple desire to do so.

Rules/regulations could be put in place that self driving lorries aren't allowed down certain roads at certain times etc.

Self driving vehicles are going to happen, it's inevitable.

I'd also like to see buses and taxis made electric/hybrid, especially in the larger cities.

In regards to bigger lorries, it's a bit surprising that they haven't been banned from certain cities/roads as yet.

It's people not checking cars. That's a big problem. Who's going to check before every journey. Still if they do what's to stop it having a fault?

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:59 pm

keith1879 wrote:If it worked yes. But I've seen many big and expensive computer programs be implemented (or sometimes abandoned) and there is no way on earth that I would trust my life to the quality of software and testing employed. The self-driving car (and more particularly it's mass adaptation throughout the country) is based on the massively complex interaction of many computer systems and I don't believe that it will ever be properly tested.

Theoretically I agree - it should be safer. In practice I doubt that it will.

We now have record levels of traffic on the roads and deaths and serious injuries at or near record LOW levels - without the self-driving car.

In regards to big expensive programs being abandoned etc, this isn't the NHS or another government office phucking things up.

I'd still prefer self driving cars, plus I'd like more electric/hybrid cars/buses/lorries too.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:05 pm

Dyched wrote:It's people not checking cars. That's a big problem. Who's going to check before every journey. Still if they do what's to stop it having a fault?

What stops your normal current car having a fault?

Absolutely nothing, if a fault develops on my well maintained MK 5 Golf, then it just happens, there's nothing I can do to prevent certain things happening, whether its brake hydraulic failure, electrical failure or the gearbox punching a hole in itself.

The same will apply to self driving cars, faults will happen despite the best will in the world, its down to the manufacturer to put in the best fail safe devices they can and its down to the vehicle owners to maintain them as best as possible.

The key part is owners maintaining their cars regularly, because large numbers of people don't bother doing it properly now with normal cars.

Sidney1st · Post by **Sidney1st** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:10 pm

Dyched wrote:What does this mean for getaway drivers? Is this the end of bank jobs?

Seriously though, what about the emergency services?

Or terrorists for that matter, planting a bomb in a car and sending to a city centre?

You're a proper bundle of joy aren't you?

Have you forgotten about the IRA setting up car bombs, or vans with mortars in the back set to fire at a predetermined time etc?

You can't calculate or program for terrorists, just like you humanly can't stop them now.

As for the emergency services, I doubt they'd get self driving vehicles for a very long time, but on the plus side they'd probably get some sort of signal sending device to let self driving cars know they're coming and to get out of the way.
How many morons do you see who clearly don't check their rearview mirrors and don't see or hear the emergency vehicle behind them??

Dyched · Post by **Dyched** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:51 pm

Sidney1st wrote:You're a proper bundle of joy aren't you?

Have you forgotten about the IRA setting up car bombs, or vans with mortars in the back set to fire at a predetermined time etc?

You can't calculate or program for terrorists, just like you humanly can't stop them now.

As for the emergency services, I doubt they'd get self driving vehicles for a very long time, but on the plus side they'd probably get some sort of signal sending device to let self driving cars know they're coming and to get out of the way.
How many morons do you see who clearly don't check their rearview mirrors and don't see or hear the emergency vehicle behind them??

I try to be

Just trying to look at it from all points of you. Going back to the subject of checking cars. It's not the actual state of the car I'm concerned about eg brakes in good order. It's the 'brains' behind the system telling the car to brake. If that were to fail at the lights on the corner of Harry Potts way on a match day then there's a big problem.

Anyway c'mon you clarets!!