The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
-
- Posts: 5642
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
- Been Liked: 766 times
- Has Liked: 499 times
- Location: Devon
The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
As the title says, what do you think?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45532566" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45532566" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
I wonder if the nationalised railway would be as good as British Rail used to be?
This user liked this post: thatdberight
-
- Posts: 8539
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:06 pm
- Been Liked: 2473 times
- Has Liked: 2010 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Virgin banned from bidding for West Coast again because partners Stagecoach won’t sign up to cover pensions.
https://news.sky.com/story/east-midland ... d-11689381" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://news.sky.com/story/east-midland ... d-11689381" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Hopefully.
This user liked this post: Taffy on the wing
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
dsr wrote:I wonder if the nationalised railway would be as good as British Rail used to be?
Maybe. Or maybe it'll be as good as that one that was so good that it had to be privatised because it was turning a profit and the customers were too satisfied.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Swiss railways?Imploding Turtle wrote:Maybe. Or maybe it'll be as good as that one that was so good that it had to be privatised because it was turning a profit and the customers were too satisfied.
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
It's amazing how the "believe in Britain" crowd suddenly think that Britain is incapable of the kind of well run nationalised railways that many other countries like Britain have. What is it about the British that makes these people think we're incapable of having an efficiently run nationalisted railways system, like Germany or France.
These 8 users liked this post: basil6345789 Rick_Muller longsidepies Lord Beamish BFCmaj Greenmile dougcollins JohnMcGreal
-
- Posts: 5642
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:55 pm
- Been Liked: 766 times
- Has Liked: 499 times
- Location: Devon
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
dsr wrote:I wonder if the nationalised railway would be as good as British Rail used to be?
Depends how important the Government thinks how necessary that the Country needs a well run and properly invested service to us the public, unlike the last time when governments seemed only interested in cost cutting and starving the railways of funds for investing while continuing to drive ticket prices up.
This user liked this post: Lord Beamish
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Experience of how it's been done before.Imploding Turtle wrote:It's amazing how the "believe in Britain" crowd suddenly think that Britain is incapable of the kind of well run nationalised railways that many other countries like Britain have. What is it about the British that makes these people think we're incapable of having an efficiently run nationalisted railways system, like Germany or France.
This user liked this post: thatdberight
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
They're doing it with the NHS too. Defund it, watch it turn to ****, say to the public "look how bad a job the government does, we should turn it over to the free market", and then hand it over so that billionaires can get richer off your misery.South West Claret. wrote:Depends how important the Government thinks how necessary that the Country needs a well run and properly invested service to us the public, unlike the last time when governments seemed only interested in cost cutting and starving the railways of funds for investing while continuing to drive ticket prices up.
There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a well run nationalised railway like our neighbours. Especially when you learn that our "privatised" railways are owned by those other country's nationalised railways companies. We're ******* subsidising France's and Germany's nationalised railways
Edit: Just in case you thought i was joking https://fullfact.org/economy/who-owns-b ... gy-postal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These 3 users liked this post: longsidepies Buxtonclaret Lord Beamish
-
- Posts: 18102
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:35 am
- Been Liked: 3875 times
- Has Liked: 2073 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
What do you expect?Imploding Turtle wrote:They're doing it with the NHS too. Defund it, watch it turn to ****, say to the public "look how bad a job the government does, we should turn it over to the free market", and then hand it over so that billionaires can get richer off your misery.
There is absolutely no reason why we can't have a well run nationalised railway like our neighbours. Especially when you learn that our "privatised" railways are owned by those other country's nationalised railways companies. We're ******* subsidising France's and Germany's nationalised railways
Edit: Just in case you thought i was joking https://fullfact.org/economy/who-owns-b ... gy-postal/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Tories would sell their own grandmother.
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Let's not pretend New Labour were innocent. But yes, they would.Quickenthetempo wrote:What do you expect?
The Tories would sell their own grandmother.
-
- Posts: 6142
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:53 am
- Been Liked: 2635 times
- Has Liked: 6464 times
- Location: -90.000000, 0.000000
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Yeah but the EU bureaucracy... Brexit... confused... Tommy Robinson...Imploding Turtle wrote:It's amazing how the "believe in Britain" crowd suddenly think that Britain is incapable of the kind of well run nationalised railways that many other countries like Britain have. What is it about the British that makes these people think we're incapable of having an efficiently run nationalisted railways system, like Germany or France.
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Today I Learned that France and Germany aren't a part of the EU. Every day's a school day.If it be your will wrote:In answer to the thread title, definitely not while we're in the EU. The Fourth Railway Package strictly forbids a fully state owned, vertically integrated railway system that excludes competition. (The Swiss can do it - being outside the EU - but had to negotiate hard to keep it that way during their negotiations with the EU.)
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
No, I didn't.If it be your will wrote:No you didn't.
-
- Posts: 4298
- Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:30 pm
- Been Liked: 1031 times
- Has Liked: 1521 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Imploding Turtle wrote:It's amazing how the "believe in Britain" crowd suddenly think that Britain is incapable of the kind of well run nationalised railways that many other countries like Britain have. What is it about the British that makes these people think we're incapable of having an efficiently run nationalisted railways system, like Germany or France.
Ah, so you've never been on either of those named.
Shame. You'd have an idea if you had.
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Hmm... you've upset him now. He'll have been furiously Googling all night and will shortly respond with a graph to show you how right he's been all along.
This user liked this post: GodIsADeeJay81
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
When the NHS swallows up over 50% of national income, maybe, just maybe there will be a re-think of how it should be run and financed.
As for the Railways my experience of it is that it is shed loads better than the pre-privatisation but not for all who use it and it is ridiculously expensive.
As well as David Cameron, Dr Beeching will be regarded as a bit of a disaster with his ideas.
As for the Railways my experience of it is that it is shed loads better than the pre-privatisation but not for all who use it and it is ridiculously expensive.
As well as David Cameron, Dr Beeching will be regarded as a bit of a disaster with his ideas.
-
- Posts: 10171
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
- Been Liked: 4188 times
- Has Liked: 57 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Anything that results in Northern rail losing their contract has my vote
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Absolutely but apart from the expense which is a given Virgin NW has always offered me a better service than before it appeared on the sceneclaretonthecoast1882 wrote:Anything that results in Northern rail losing their contract has my vote
-
- Posts: 10171
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
- Been Liked: 4188 times
- Has Liked: 57 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Virgin and Transpenine have always been fine for me, Northern are just a work shy lazy operation with unreliable staffmdd2 wrote:Absolutely but apart from the expense which is a given Virgin NW has always offered me a better service than before it appeared on the scene
This user liked this post: thatdberight
-
- Posts: 1507
- Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:34 am
- Been Liked: 695 times
- Has Liked: 297 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
You can't compare privatising the railways and the NHS imo. The NHS is massively inefficient, I don't agree with privatising it but it needs to be rethought.
As for railways, the East Coast franchise was the lowest subsidised franchise when it was state-run... so maybe we could be more efficient if they were state-run.
As for railways, the East Coast franchise was the lowest subsidised franchise when it was state-run... so maybe we could be more efficient if they were state-run.
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 4980
- Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:31 pm
- Been Liked: 2341 times
- Has Liked: 1041 times
- Location: Ightenhill,Burnley
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Because those of us who remember State owned railways, remember what a crock of **** they were !!Imploding Turtle wrote:It's amazing how the "believe in Britain" crowd suddenly think that Britain is incapable of the kind of well run nationalised railways that many other countries like Britain have. What is it about the British that makes these people think we're incapable of having an efficiently run nationalisted railways system, like Germany or France.
And for them to happen, Corbyn would have to be Prime Minister, oh dear !!
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Clarets4me wrote:Because those of us who remember State owned railways, remember what a crock of **** they were !!
And for them to happen, Corbyn would have to be Prime Minister, oh dear !!
We already have state owned railways. France and Germany run trains on them. Except unlike their own railways which are run well and with the customer's interests as a priority, they get to run ours terribly because they're entirely profit driven whereas at home they have to answer to the customers in the form of votes.
But maybe you're right. Maybe this country is too stupid to run it's own railways as well as other countries run theirs. It would certainly explain why we choose to pay for them, because we're idiots.
-
- Posts: 9601
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
- Been Liked: 3150 times
- Has Liked: 10260 times
- Location: Staffordshire
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
We're idiots for putting up with greedy, short-sighted governments running down our services and then flogging them off to our competitors.
These 2 users liked this post: fatboy47 Buxtonclaret
-
- Posts: 4649
- Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 am
- Been Liked: 1031 times
- Has Liked: 3192 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
You Sir are an idiot!.. Thatcher & Co. sold off the railways (owned and paid for by Taxpayers) for pennies on the pound.Clarets4me wrote:Because those of us who remember State owned railways, remember what a crock of **** they were !!
And for them to happen, Corbyn would have to be Prime Minister, oh dear !!
Private companies carved up the best routes between them, and let the more rural, less profitable routes rot, essentially stranding thousands of people, with no way to get where they wanted to go......... leaving the Taxpayer with high ticket prices AND the cost of closing the unprofitable lines....and on and on, all in the name of profit!
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
You can’t seriously think the way trains are run in this country now is any better than it used to be? That is unless you never use them or you live in a small area of the south of England. If you live in the north and hold this view then you’re just weirdly sticking to your ideological guns for no reason.dsr wrote:Experience of how it's been done before.
-
- Posts: 4197
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:58 am
- Been Liked: 2327 times
- Has Liked: 2701 times
- Location: Isles of Scilly
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Sooner the better....the railways need to be in public ownership......such an important part of the infrastructure can't just be a feeding trough for pigs.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
The railways in Europe are better than we have. Britain’s privatisation led to underfunding, overcrowding, excessive fares, delays, and disruption. The Labour Party have said they will renationalise but that’s not enough. We need a complete upgrade of our railway stations, a part reversal of what Beeching butchered to open up some disused routes, HS2, HS3 in the North connecting towns and cities up here, electric services across the entire network to reduce our carbon use. Major job. But we’ll worth doing.
This user liked this post: Falcon
-
- Posts: 9337
- Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:48 pm
- Been Liked: 4108 times
- Has Liked: 6591 times
- Location: Burnley
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Whilst we are on about how wonderful the German rail network is, does anyone know how much income tax the Germans pay?
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Agreed. But we also need a sensible integrated transport policy that links all forms of transport and transport hubs. Also scrapping BRB and introducing privatisation on the railways was meant to show that private companies would do a better job. This, clearly, is demonstrably not the case.mikeS wrote:The railways in Europe are better than we have. Britain’s privatisation led to underfunding, overcrowding, excessive fares, delays, and disruption. The Labour Party have said they will renationalise but that’s not enough. We need a complete upgrade of our railway stations, a part reversal of what Beeching butchered to open up some disused routes, HS2, HS3 in the North connecting towns and cities up here, electric services across the entire network to reduce our carbon use. Major job. But we’ll worth doing.
These 2 users liked this post: longsidepies mikeS
-
- Posts: 3748
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
- Been Liked: 927 times
- Has Liked: 716 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
They're not as much better, or cheaper, as it's perceived.mikeS wrote:The railways in Europe are better than we have. Britain’s privatisation led to underfunding, overcrowding, excessive fares, delays, and disruption.
30, since you'll no doubt ask.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
I’ve had the experience of travelling on trains in Europe for over 50 years, I’ve always had a seat, as has everyone else. It can happen here too if there’s a proper plan and an integrated system, with proper state and private funding.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
They were however far less costly to the country than the current set-up. Any time you read that the current railway system is more efficiient you should dig into the figures and I guarantee that you will find that the annual £4 billion subsidy to network rail has been conveniently excluded. BR was considered (throughout Europe) to be a highly efficient organisation and other countries used to visit BR to learn from them. Their failings were (at least in part) due to an endless lack of investment from successive governments.Clarets4me wrote:Because those of us who remember State owned railways, remember what a crock of **** they were !!
And for them to happen, Corbyn would have to be Prime Minister, oh dear !!
BR was expected to break even over the medium term and did so .....our current railway system is so far from breaking even that it cannot even be considered as a possibility. Both the conservatives and "new" labour have colluded in the deception that the privatised railway system makes a profit in order to shore up their doctrinaire support of private ownership.
All that said ...... there are now more trains carrying more people which must be a good thing. Just don't run away with the idea that it is because of private ownership .....the fares are higher in real terms and the tax-payer is providing more support (also in real terms) while at least 100 private companies seek to make profits where previously there was none.
-
- Posts: 3748
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
- Been Liked: 927 times
- Has Liked: 716 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Privatisation of the rail industry is not an unalloyed success story. But it is a success story.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Income tax in Germany is progressive: first, income tax rates start at 14%, then they rise incrementally to 42%; last, very high income levels are taxed at 45%. The top tax rate of 42% applies to taxable income above €55,961. Finally, for taxable income above €265,327, a 45% tax is applicable.bobinho wrote:Whilst we are on about how wonderful the German rail network is, does anyone know how much income tax the Germans pay?
If that's wrong blame Google.
These 2 users liked this post: thatdberight Imploding Turtle
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
You can't post that graph and then mic drop. I can't think what happened post war, can you? Oh yeah, everyone bought a car and as a country we went on a road building spree to drive them on. At the end of the 90s people started reverting to rail because frankly the roads had suffered under investment and you struggled to drive anywhere, fuel also started getting progressively more expensive.thatdberight wrote:Privatisation of the rail industry is not an unalloyed success story. But it is a success story.
As much as nationalisation, those facts can explain your graph.
-
- Posts: 3748
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
- Been Liked: 927 times
- Has Liked: 716 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
The privatised rail companies got very lucky that this combination of effects happened just as they came into being.mealdeal wrote:You can't post that graph and then mic drop. I can't think what happened post war, can you? Oh yeah, everyone bought a car and as a country we went on a road building spree to drive them on. At the end of the 90s people started reverting to rail because frankly the roads had suffered under investment and you struggled to drive anywhere, fuel also started getting progressively more expensive.
As much as nationalisation, those facts can explain your graph.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
Nonsense. These effects didn't 'just happen', they were engineered.
-
- Posts: 4298
- Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:30 pm
- Been Liked: 1031 times
- Has Liked: 1521 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
The unions won't let them.Imploding Turtle wrote:It's amazing how the "believe in Britain" crowd suddenly think that Britain is incapable of the kind of well run nationalised railways that many other countries like Britain have. What is it about the British that makes these people think we're incapable of having an efficiently run nationalisted railways system, like Germany or France.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
PLUS ...as I said above the taxpayer support for the current rail system is massively greater than it was for the nationalised BR. That is the irony of our "private" system ......it is more closely managed by the civil service and more heavily funded by the treasury than BR ever was.mealdeal wrote:You can't post that graph and then mic drop. I can't think what happened post war, can you? Oh yeah, everyone bought a car and as a country we went on a road building spree to drive them on. At the end of the 90s people started reverting to rail because frankly the roads had suffered under investment and you struggled to drive anywhere, fuel also started getting progressively more expensive.
As much as nationalisation, those facts can explain your graph.
In practice of course Network Rail (which is the single biggest part of what BR used to be) is a nationalised company.
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
We have the management skills but we have a meddling, political elite and a history of self serving unions that would exploit its economic power and grip on services for selfish reasons at the expense of the travelling public. See London tube strikes.Imploding Turtle wrote:It's amazing how the "believe in Britain" crowd suddenly think that Britain is incapable of the kind of well run nationalised railways that many other countries like Britain have. What is it about the British that makes these people think we're incapable of having an efficiently run nationalisted railways system, like Germany or France.
Last edited by COBBLE on Thu May 09, 2019 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
-
- Posts: 3748
- Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:49 am
- Been Liked: 927 times
- Has Liked: 716 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
And the last detailed analysis I saw showed that the nationalised part was the part of the system that is economically inefficient.keith1879 wrote:PLUS ...as I said above the taxpayer support for the current rail system is massively greater than it was for the nationalised BR. That is the irony of our "private" system ......it is more closely managed by the civil service and more heavily funded by the treasury than BR ever was.
In practice of course Network Rail (which is the single biggest part of what BR used to be) is a nationalised company.
I can't pretend to understand the details of all the financials. I would like to see government spend split between operating and capital to make sure I understand the contention that there's much more public subsidy. By the way, I'm in favour of public subsidy and more investment in the rail industry. Just not in favour of public ownership.
-
- Posts: 2103
- Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:12 am
- Been Liked: 500 times
- Has Liked: 509 times
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
.
Last edited by If it be your will on Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 19799
- Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:12 am
- Been Liked: 5483 times
- Has Liked: 2540 times
- Location: Burnley, Lancs
Re: The beginning of the end for privatised railways?
COBBLE wrote:We have the management skills but we have a meddling, political elite and a history of self serving unions that would exploit its economic power and grip on services for selfish reasons at the expense of the travelling public. See London tube strikes.
I don't agree with you, but pretending you had a point for a moment I much prefer that unions exploit the economic power of something for the benefit of their members than private companies exploiting workers and their necessity for a meagre wage to the benefit of their shareholders.