Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

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Claret-On-A-T-Rex
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Claret-On-A-T-Rex » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:58 pm

AndyClaret wrote:Election on December 12th, is Corbyn frit ?
Frit?

FRIT?

Did you go to Eton or something?

I've never heard anyone in my life say frit except that idiot Boris Johnson.

nil_desperandum
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:07 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Frit?

FRIT?

Did you go to Eton or something?

I've never heard anyone in my life say frit except that idiot Boris Johnson.
Quoting Thatcher I assume.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by summitclaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:24 pm

Let's hope Macron wins and we have an extension of a couple of weeks and this rotten parliament has to vote for the new deal to avoid no deal. That would be payback to the brexit blockers big style.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Lets hope you manage to keep control of your bottom lip

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Frit?

FRIT?

Did you go to Eton or something?

I've never heard anyone in my life say frit except that idiot Boris Johnson.
Always good to learn something new isn't it :)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Guess we will see

Surprised we are not going for an election to be honest.

Only chance of Corbyn winning is if he has one with Brexit still not sorted.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Devils_Advocate » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:38 pm

Anyone think the reason why the 31st Oct was die in a ditch time and now the urgency to get a Dec election has anything to do with the EU Tax Avoidance legislation coming into play from Jan 1st 2020?

I think its a reasonable assumption that a lot of the money behind Vote Leave and the MPs who do their dirty work has from day dot always been about separating themselves from this legislation that will really hit them hard in the pocket

KateR
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:41 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Guess we will see

Surprised we are not going for an election to be honest.

Only chance of Corbyn winning is if he has one with Brexit still not sorted.

I think the EU will agree the delay until end Jan.

I think Labour and the opposition will agree some form of timetable to debate the WA, I think they will also vote against an election and say they want to see the outcome of the WA first.

I think Gov. will put forward the GE for December next week and have it rejected.

I think Labour/opposition will tear the WA apart, will request numerous amendments.

Jan likely to see Labour and opposition armed with all the failings of this WA say ok now we can look at a GE in March but ONLY if you get another 3 month extension to end April and we are assured that no deal is off the table.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Spijed » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Only chance of Corbyn winning is if he has one with Brexit still not sorted.
One of the articles by a political commentator (think it was the FT) did make the point that after a while defeat, after defeat will start to look poor for BJ.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:43 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Anyone think the reason why the 31st Oct was die in a ditch time and now the urgency to get a Dec election has anything to do with the EU Tax Avoidance legislation coming into play from Jan 1st 2020?

I think its a reasonable assumption that a lot of the money behind Vote Leave and the MPs who do their dirty work has from day dot always been about separating themselves from this legislation that will really hit them hard in the pocket

I would have thought that applied equally to all MP's, some more than others yes, however I do agree where ever money comes in to play people will look to how they can avoid paying it. Wouldn't you?

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by KateR » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:46 pm

Spijed wrote:One of the articles by a political commentator (think it was the FT) did make the point that after a while defeat, after defeat will start to look poor for BJ.

yes I think it's clear for all to see that Labour et al are going to be big winners by continually focusing there efforts to ensuring nothing get's done, a winning philosophy and should be the main headline of there eventual GE Manifesto, I really think you're on to something here.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lancasterclaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:48 pm

I suspect Johnson might have to resign to get his GE.

Of course, that opens up the possibility of a government of National Unity.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by android » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:54 pm

Devils_Advocate wrote:Anyone think the reason why the 31st Oct was die in a ditch time and now the urgency to get a Dec election has anything to do with the EU Tax Avoidance legislation coming into play from Jan 1st 2020?

I think its a reasonable assumption that a lot of the money behind Vote Leave and the MPs who do their dirty work has from day dot always been about separating themselves from this legislation that will really hit them hard in the pocket
Give me strength. In short the answer is NO and your assumption is not reasonable. The UK tends to lead the way on anti avoidance rules and most of the new regs are already in place in the UK and have been for some time. If it helps, I am much more confident about this point than I originally was about the limbo thing. I'm not posting about it again though because it is really boring.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Mala591 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:55 pm

The EU have clearly stated that parliament must have a good reason for them to grant an extension. If parliament refuse a general election on Monday and the WA bill remains in purgatory then there is no reason to grant an extension.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by randomclaret2 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:58 pm

Surely anyone with even a passing knowledge of British politics would be aware of the use of the word " frit " by someone other than Boris Johnson ?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:57 pm

KateR wrote:I think the EU will agree the delay until end Jan.

I think Labour and the opposition will agree some form of timetable to debate the WA, I think they will also vote against an election and say they want to see the outcome of the WA first.

I think Gov. will put forward the GE for December next week and have it rejected.

I think Labour/opposition will tear the WA apart, will request numerous amendments.

Jan likely to see Labour and opposition armed with all the failings of this WA say ok now we can look at a GE in March but ONLY if you get another 3 month extension to end April and we are assured that no deal is off the table.
Macron would love that he's already wary of a longish extension now,how on earth can no deal be off the table,if there isn't an agreed deal,if you're right and this impasse carries into next spring the only winner that i can see is Nigel Farage,Johnson will lose votes to the BP and Corbyn will be accused of running scared of the electorate.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by tiger76 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:00 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:I suspect Johnson might have to resign to get his GE.

Of course, that opens up the possibility of a government of National Unity.
Possible but that would require parliament finding a uniting figure to be a temporary PM,the Lib Dems have already made it clear they'll never approve a Corbyn premiership,even a stop-gap one,and the other parties don't appear enthusiatic.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Elizabeth » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:06 pm

If I've read it right, at this moment in time, Parliament have been offered a couple of weeks to scrutinise the new deal bill. In addition Parliament are being asked to grant a GE after they have scrutinised it.
Parliament wanted more than the couple of days that had been offered previously to scrutinise the bill. They have got it.
Parliament want a GE. They can have it.
Only MPs and members of the public wanting to stop Brexit would have any argument with this.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:00 pm

Elizabeth wrote:If I've read it right, at this moment in time, Parliament have been offered a couple of weeks to scrutinise the new deal bill. In addition Parliament are being asked to grant a GE after they have scrutinised it.
Parliament wanted more than the couple of days that had been offered previously to scrutinise the bill. They have got it.
Parliament want a GE. They can have it.
Only MPs and members of the public wanting to stop Brexit would have any argument with this.
The government knows a 2nd referendum would be the death of Brexit so they seek a GE a minority vote thanks to FPTP will give them the pretense of a mandate to push through this pig of a deal.

This is all about Brexit, a general election is to cover all issues of the UK. So stop pretending and have a proper binary question referndum now there is a deal which should have been in place when the question was asked in the first place instead of the blank cheque Brexit presented to the country which turned out to be only exchangeable for monopoly money.
We've had one yes, but this could also be the third general election in four years so don't say we have to stick to one vote forever.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:16 pm

Elizabeth wrote:If I've read it right, at this moment in time, Parliament have been offered a couple of weeks to scrutinise the new deal bill. In addition Parliament are being asked to grant a GE after they have scrutinised it.
Parliament wanted more than the couple of days that had been offered previously to scrutinise the bill. They have got it.
Parliament want a GE. They can have it.
Only MPs and members of the public wanting to stop Brexit would have any argument with this.
This seems absolutely right.

The MPs wanted longer - two more weeks seems ample, most of it was analysed in Theresa’s time, the new bits don’t take much debating, you either like it or you do not.

Corbyn has repeatedly promised a GE once no deal is not a risk. If MPs pass the bill, and the EU ratifies it, that satisfies that, with the 31st Jan fallback extension as a “backstop”.

So, one can only conclude, that if the other parties do not agree to this they have been telling us a pack of lies, and in fact are the cowards Johnson has labelled them. Running from the people is never a good look in a politician, it tends to get hammered in the polling booth, that image may stick even if the people have to wait 3 years.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by claret_in_exile » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:31 pm

CombatClaret wrote:The government knows a 2nd referendum would be the death of Brexit so they seek a GE a minority vote thanks to FPTP will give them the pretense of a mandate to push through this pig of a deal.

This is all about Brexit, a general election is to cover all issues of the UK. So stop pretending and have a proper binary question referndum now there is a deal which should have been in place when the question was asked in the first place instead of the blank cheque Brexit presented to the country which turned out to be only exchangeable for monopoly money.
We've had one yes, but this could also be the third general election in four years so don't say we have to stick to one vote forever.
There are two problems with having a second referendum:

1) It negates the will of the 52% who voted to Leave in the first one - those who voted Leave in 2016 will have the (very good) argument that they would be expected to win two referendums whereas Remain would only have to win 1 out of 2.

2) It doesn't change the Parliamentary arithmetic, which has been the problem since 2017. Of course, another hung Parliament is quite within the realms of possibility after another General Election, but leaving the numbers as they are right now has proven to be gridlock.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:40 pm

claret_in_exile wrote:There are two problems with having a second referendum:

1) It negates the will of the 52% who voted to Leave in the first one - those who voted Leave in 2016 will have the (very good) argument that they would be expected to win two referendums whereas Remain would only have to win 1 out of 2.

2) It doesn't change the Parliamentary arithmetic, which has been the problem since 2017. Of course, another hung Parliament is quite within the realms of possibility after another General Election, but leaving the numbers as they are right now has proven to be gridlock.
You’d be looking at 3 referendums if remain won, & they will be likely thousands of people (elderly) who have died since 2016 who didn’t live long enough to see there vote honoured & the younger generation who are more pro remain & didn't vote in the first one now would be eligible to vote, it’d be morally wrong & disrespectful to 1s that have passed away.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by If it be your will » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:44 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:Guess we will see

Surprised we are not going for an election to be honest.

Only chance of Corbyn winning is if he has one with Brexit still not sorted.
Weird you say this, because I think precisely the opposite. I think the only hope in hell of Labour winning is to get back most of the Labour leave vote that has recently deserted them. If Brexit is still in the balance, they'll go with the Tories to get it over the line. If Brexit is already dealt with, they might (might) forgive Labour and reluctantly return. They might (might) also get some of the ultra-remainers back from the Lib Dems, too.

(I'm actually pretty certain Labour have blown it either way, though.)
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:53 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:You’d be looking at 3 referendums if remain won, & they will be likely thousands of people (elderly) who have died since 2016 who didn’t live long enough to see there vote honoured & the younger generation who are more pro remain & didn't vote in the first one now would be eligible to vote, it’d be morally wrong & disrespectful to 1s that have passed away.
I’ve decided you’re a parody account. That’s got to be it.

It’s disrespectful because old people who voted leave don’t get to see the wreckage they leave and the people who’s very future they voted about don’t get a say?!
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:55 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:You’d be looking at 3 referendums if remain won, & they will be likely thousands of people (elderly) who have died since 2016 who didn’t live long enough to see there vote honoured & the younger generation who are more pro remain & didn't vote in the first one now would be eligible to vote, it’d be morally wrong & disrespectful to 1s that have passed away.
Is it not also morally wrong to ignore these newly enfranchised young citizens now eligible to vote but denied a say in a choice that will effect the rest of their lives in favour of people who no longer exist so therefor will not effect them in any way?

If anything that's an argument FOR a second referendum because democracy should come from the people, those new young remainers are part of said people. Callous as it sounds the dead, I'm afraid, are no longer part of the democratic process.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:57 pm

jontybfc wrote:I’ve decided you’re a parody account. That’s got to be it.

It’s disrespectful because old people who voted leave don’t get to see the wreckage they leave and the people who’s very future they voted about don’t get a say?!
That’s your opinion not fact on a predicted future, I’d trust the older generation myself personally because of the experience & more importantly living when things were different, it’s the only way to compare change, the younger generation don’t have that same gift.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:01 am

claret_in_exile wrote:There are two problems with having a second referendum:

1) It negates the will of the 52% who voted to Leave in the first one - those who voted Leave in 2016 will have the (very good) argument that they would be expected to win two referendums whereas Remain would only have to win 1 out of 2.

2) It doesn't change the Parliamentary arithmetic, which has been the problem since 2017. Of course, another hung Parliament is quite within the realms of possibility after another General Election, but leaving the numbers as they are right now has proven to be gridlock.
1) it's been shown there is no one will of the people many wills of groups of people all lumped into one. This next referendum is the one which should have taken place in the first place, with a deal, everyone can read and scrutinize, no promises that can be broken. Ink on a page, vote for it or don't.

2) The above second referendum solves your second point, the deadlock in parliament is predominately about HOW we leave, which was not on the ballot. But now with this deal, it can be. So if Leave wins with this deal, we know exactly HOW people want to leave and parliament can move to implement it with absolute clarity.
While I would not agree with it I would 100% back the implementation of the deal if it won as the way it came about (ie a majority vote for the specific deal) would be clear and unequivocal.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:07 am

Jakubclaret wrote:That’s your opinion not fact on a predicted future, I’d trust the older generation myself personally because of the experience & more importantly living when things were different, it’s the only way to compare change, the younger generation don’t have that same gift.
So the only people you don’t trust are experts. Your fantastic common sense abilities don’t stretch as far as experts. Economists don’t meet that criteria. But old people who lived before we used computers do.

They all lived during the ‘let him have it Chris’ generation. Times were different then, great times.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by martin_p » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:09 am

Jakubclaret wrote:That’s your opinion not fact on a predicted future, I’d trust the older generation myself personally because of the experience & more importantly living when things were different, it’s the only way to compare change, the younger generation don’t have that same gift.
How on earth can you respect the older generation without meeting every single one of them face to face?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:09 am

Devils_Advocate wrote:Anyone think the reason why the 31st Oct was die in a ditch time and now the urgency to get a Dec election has anything to do with the EU Tax Avoidance legislation coming into play from Jan 1st 2020?

I think its a reasonable assumption that a lot of the money behind Vote Leave and the MPs who do their dirty work has from day dot always been about separating themselves from this legislation that will really hit them hard in the pocket
Here you go, DA,

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... rective_en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Anti Tax Avoidance Directive

On 28 January 2016 the Commission presented its proposal for an Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive as part of the Anti-Tax Avoidance Package. On 20 June 2016 the Council adopted the Directive (EU) 2016/1164 laying down rules against tax avoidance practices that directly affect the functioning of the internal market.
In order to provide for a comprehensive framework of anti-abuse measures the Commission presented its proposal
Search for available translations of the preceding link
••• on 25th October 2016, to complement the existing rule on hybrid mismatches. The rule on hybrid mismatches aims to prevent companies from exploiting national mismatches to avoid taxation.

The Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive contains five legally-binding anti-abuse measures, which all Member States should apply against common forms of aggressive tax planning.

Member States should apply these measures as from 1 January 2019.

It creates a minimum level of protection against corporate tax avoidance throughout the EU, while ensuring a fairer and more stable environment for businesses.
The anti-avoidance measures in the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive other than the rule on hybrid mismatches, are:

Controlled foreign company (CFC) rule: to deter profit shifting to a low/no tax country.

Switchover rule: to prevent double non-taxation of certain income.

Exit taxation: to prevent companies from avoiding tax when re-locating assets.

Interest limitation: to discourage artificial debt arrangements designed to minimise taxes.

General anti-abuse rule: to counteract aggressive tax planning when other rules don’t apply.

1) We see that these rules apply to corporations.
2) By and large, without getting into the minutia of tax law, the UK has had these, or the equivalent tax laws for a very long time. The "Interest limitation" directive is the equivalent of what's known as the "thin capitalisation" rule: the offshore parent company sets up a UK subsidiary, pays in a little equity and finances the rest with debt. Of course, the interest on the debt takes profits out of the UK company - interest is tax free, whereas dividends are paid to the parent company only after corporation tax has been paid. Thin cap rules put a limit, so that the UK company still pays tax equivalent to the "excess interest" as though it was a dividend payment.

3) Yes, in other EU countries these schemes that the directive rules against, would previously have worked.

4) My guess is that UK tax specialists were included in the group that advised the EU on making these new regs. Who knows, maybe someone who posts on here has been involved in the debates concerning the development of these regs.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:10 am

martin_p wrote:How on earth can you respect the older generation without meeting every single one of them face to face?
I’ll predict something involving common sense.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:14 am

jontybfc wrote:So the only people you don’t trust are experts. Your fantastic common sense abilities don’t stretch as far as experts. Economists don’t meet that criteria. But old people who lived before we used computers do.

They all lived during the ‘let him have it Chris’ generation. Times were different then, great times.
Yes that true, it’s absolutely impossible it’s a irrefutable fact, you cannot replace the wisdom of say a 70 year old men/women probably even older who maybe served in the war with somebody almost straight out of school/college, it’s absurd.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:19 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Yes that true, it’s absolutely impossible it’s a irrefutable fact, you cannot replace the wisdom of say a 70 year old men/women probably even older who maybe served in the war with somebody almost straight out of school/college, it’s absurd.
My mates mum who’s seventy voted leave because of the bus. Can’t replace that wisdom.

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:20 am

jontybfc wrote:So the only people you don’t trust are experts. Your fantastic common sense abilities don’t stretch as far as experts. Economists don’t meet that criteria. But old people who lived before we used computers do.

They all lived during the ‘let him have it Chris’ generation. Times were different then, great times.
Hi jonty. I was born before computers were common. In 1970 I chose "data processing" as an A-level subject. The "computer" came to school on a bus; it filled the whole of the bottom deck: input device (punch card reader), processor (I think the power of a very small light 5w bulb, hard to tell when it was switched on and when it was switched off....) and an output device (I can't remember whether this was also punch cards, or was readable print on the A3(ish) green lined computer printing paper. If there was a monitor, it was about 5 inches square and either white on black or orange on black! School cancelled the class because only 3 of us signed up.

In my 45 year career I've experienced the progress with computers. Yes, I'm an "older guy" but still able to keep up with the under 30s, recent grads with MScs and the like.

So, yes, being "born before computers" isn't a barrier to a bit of understanding as what's going on today.

EDIT: and, I wasn't thinking of any of Boris's buses when I said the 1970 computer required a bus to port it around. ;)

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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:22 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi jonty. I was born before computers were common. In 1970 I chose "data processing" as an A-level subject. The "computer" came to school on a bus; it filled the whole of the bottom deck: input device (punch card reader), processor (I think the power of a very small light 5w bulb, hard to tell when it was switched on and when it was switched off....) and an output device (I can't remember whether this was also punch cards, or was readable print on the A3(ish) green lined computer printing paper. If there was a monitor, it was about 5 inches square and either white on black or orange on black! School cancelled the class because only 3 of us signed up.

In my 45 year career I've experienced the progress with computers. Yes, I'm an "older guy" but still able to keep up with the under 30s, recent grads with MScs and the like.

So, yes, being "born before computers" isn't a barrier to a bit of understanding as what's going on today.
That’s great, so do you understand we’re all going to be poorer and people’s lives tougher?

Jakubclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Jakubclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:24 am

jontybfc wrote:My mates mum who’s seventy voted leave because of the bus. Can’t replace that wisdom.
1 reason 1 person that doesn’t apply to all the old people, you might be comfortable disregarding the democratic votes of people dead when the wishes haven’t been enacted, I’m not. Night I’ll sleep well.

dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:26 am

jontybfc wrote:That’s great, so do you understand we’re all going to be poorer and people’s lives tougher?
Perhaps that's the point. Older people have got past the "Janet and John" approach to politics.

In general, when anyone has the attitude of "I know all the answers and anyone who disagrees is wrong", their opinions are not reliable. And there are plenty of them on here.

jontybfc
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:26 am

Jakubclaret wrote:1 reason 1 person that doesn’t apply to all the old people, you might be comfortable disregarding the democratic votes of people dead when the wishes haven’t been enacted, I’m not. Night I’ll sleep well.

What if they’re still alive and realise they’ve been sold a pup?
Last edited by jontybfc on Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lowbankclaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Lowbankclaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:26 am

Jakubclaret wrote:You’d be looking at 3 referendums if remain won, & they will be likely thousands of people (elderly) who have died since 2016 who didn’t live long enough to see there vote honoured & the younger generation who are more pro remain & didn't vote in the first one now would be eligible to vote, it’d be morally wrong & disrespectful to 1s that have passed away.
To be fair, those youngsters will be able to spend most of their life regretting their decision, and thinking the old farts had a very valid point.

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:28 am

jontybfc wrote:That’s great, so do you understand we’re all going to be poorer and people’s lives tougher?
Hi jonty, is that you making that decision about "all going to be poorer and people's lives tougher?" How do you reach that conclusion and back it up?

I can discuss economic models and economic forecasting with you, if you'd like.

CombatClaret
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by CombatClaret » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:30 am

Jakubclaret wrote:Yes that true, it’s absolutely impossible it’s a irrefutable fact, you cannot replace the wisdom of say a 70 year old men/women probably even older who maybe served in the war with somebody almost straight out of school/college, it’s absurd.
Plenty of respect for anyone who served but when it comes to complex situations, say for example macro economics. I'll take the 28 year of with a doctorate earned through a decade of learning on the subject over the 'wisdom' of a 90+ year old veteran who failed his O level math but got a couple weeks of basic rifle training.

jontybfc
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:34 am

dsr wrote:Perhaps that's the point. Older people have got past the "Janet and John" approach to politics.

In general, when anyone has the attitude of "I know all the answers and anyone who disagrees is wrong", their opinions are not reliable. And there are plenty of them on here.
You can’t have a discussion with people who won’t listen, more or less every post on this thread discussing the benefits of the eu involves facts or expert predictions. We were promised so much once we left and now we want to make sure we damage so little. In any other circumstance it would be a disgrace. I just don’t get it. No one gives reasons to leave.
Last edited by jontybfc on Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

jontybfc
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:39 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi jonty, is that you making that decision about "all going to be poorer and people's lives tougher?" How do you reach that conclusion and back it up?

I can discuss economic models and economic forecasting with you, if you'd like.
If you could present an economic model or forecast that predicts the benefits to us for leaving then I’d love to see it. I’m just going off what almost every expert says. I’m yet to read a better deal situation than the one we already have. If you have it, let me know, might change my mind.

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:39 am

CombatClaret wrote:Plenty of respect for anyone who served but when it comes to complex situations, say for example macro economics. I'll take the 28 year of with a doctorate earned through a decade of learning on the subject over the 'wisdom' of a 90+ year old veteran who failed his O level math but got a couple weeks of basic rifle training.
How does someone mid-60s stack up - with an economics degree plus 40 years real life experience on top?

dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:39 am

CombatClaret wrote:Plenty of respect for anyone who served but when it comes to complex situations, say for example macro economics. I'll take the 28 year of with a doctorate earned through a decade of learning on the subject over the 'wisdom' of a 90+ year old veteran who failed his O level math but got a couple weeks of basic rifle training.
That applies if all you want to boil life down to is macroeconomics and university doctorates. I would rather have the old bloke than the permanent student when it comes to knowing what to do when the pipes start leaking.

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:41 am

jontybfc wrote:If you could present an economic model or forecast that predicts the benefits to us for leaving then I’d love to see it. I’m just going off what almost every expert says. I’m yet to read a better deal situation than the one we already have. If you have it, let me know, might change my mind.
Hi jonty, I can show you my economic model - but, I would like you to show me your's first. Is that a deal? ;)

jontybfc
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:41 am

Paul Waine wrote:How does someone mid-60s stack up - with an economics degree plus 40 years real life experience on top?
Depends if they hate foreigners.

dsr
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by dsr » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:45 am

jontybfc wrote:If you could present an economic model or forecast that predicts the benefits to us for leaving then I’d love to see it. I’m just going off what almost every expert says. I’m yet to read a better deal situation than the one we already have. If you have it, let me know, might change my mind.
Is money all that matters to you? Do you choose your wife (or husband) that way? That's all we hear from Remainers - money, money, money. If they aren't getting more money, they don't want to know.

For one thing, I don't think we will be materially poorer. (Though even if it costs you tuppence a week, you would no doubt hate to part with your tuppence.) There's independence. Some people like independence - the Scots Nats aren't routinely sneered at because they can't prove that Scotland would be richer withuot England. Sinn Fein's primary reason for a united independent Ireland isn't because they see financial benefits. The Baltic states' revolutions, the Prague Spring and the Hungary rebellion, the anti-colonial movement in Africa, the initial stages of the French Revolution and the Spanish Civil War, even our own Civil War - they weren't about money. We can pursue independence without war, fortunately. But if there's no money in it, you needn't despise it.

Paul Waine
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by Paul Waine » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:47 am

jontybfc wrote:Depends if they hate foreigners.
???? I was at an event this evening - part of celebration of Black history month. The (well known) key speaker is a British Nigerian. He was speaking about Britain's black history - and lancashire cotton is a big part of it. I think we might all have been foreigners to one or two on here. We were all friends at the celebration.

jontybfc
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth

Post by jontybfc » Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:50 am

Paul Waine wrote:Hi jonty, I can show you my economic model - but, I would like you to show me your's first. Is that a deal? ;)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -recession" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No-deal Brexit could cause £30bn economic hit, watchdog says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/upload ... posals.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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