Imploding Turtle wrote:I'm still yet to get an actual answer to my question, which i've repeated a few different times. None of you going to take a swing at it?
Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Oh, i'd forgot about that question, but that one matters too. I believe i wanted you to not google it, and tell me how many allegations of voter fraud was required to make it worthwhile to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of people?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Didn't want me to Google it but wanted me to guess, get it wrong and then you could belittle me because you knew the answer which you'd googled....Imploding Turtle wrote:Oh, i'd forgot about that question, but that one matters too. I believe i wanted you to not google it, and tell me how many allegations of voter fraud was required to make it worthwhile to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of people?
Yeah alright, I'm well up for playing that game with you.
I'll delete my post so we can go again....
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
No, i didn't want you to guess either. wtf you on about?GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:Didn't want me to Google it but wanted me to guess, get it wrong and then you could belittle me because you knew the answer which you'd googled....
Yeah alright, I'm well up for playing that game with you.
I'll delete my post so we can go again....
I wanted you to tell me how many allegations of voter fraud you would need there to be to make disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of people worth it.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Boris wants to thwart Brexit?Jakubclaret wrote:I don't think a GE would solve the Brexit issue either, I think it's more remainers who want a GE because they realise it's more likely than a 2nd referendum & there's a chance in a GE of further delaying the exit date again & again or a slim chance of removing the tories from power, all a GE will do is frustrate & unsettle Brexit & further delay & try to get people onside with the remain perspective. Anything to basically thwart brexit is the mission.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Far too much information or detail in the response for me to explain why boris doesn’t want to thwart brexit.Claret-On-A-T-Rex wrote:Boris wants to thwart Brexit?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It is often forgotten that the act of leaving the EU is not inherently left or right wing. It can't be. It's what happens after we've left that determines this. I think it absolutely, desperately sad that Corbyn has chucked this election away trying to please remainers, in direct opposition to everything he has believed for decades. I expect he'll never forgive himself for this. I don't know when the left will get another opportunity to govern without the EU's rules. When he loses this election - which is utterly inevitable - the Blairites will be back in charge of Labour for the foreseeable future.aggi wrote:I missed this in all the excitement.
It is possible that Brexit could provide the impetus to update, upgrade, etc. Wouldn't that just shift the issue from foreigners causing the problem to robots causing it.
Also, thinking about it, I'm not really on board with the underlying premise. With our minimum wage the labour in the UK is far more expensive than many other, more productive, territories. Surely the incentive has already been there to upgrade compared to other countries with a much cheaper labour pool?
Where your view is interesting is that obviously most people are foreseeing a Britain with deregulation, more capitalist, etc post-Brexit but you're hoping it will be the impetus for a swing in the other direction. Who knows what we'll end up with.
It'll be interesting what manifesto Labour go with. I think he should put out 2 separate documents: one with all the plans if we do leave the EU (which will presumably resemble his 2017 manifesto), and one for if we remain (which will have to be considerably different to his 2017 manifesto).
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
One is enough. If you can’t be arsed to get to the Town Hall to get your free voter ID then you are disenfranchising yourself.Imploding Turtle wrote:No, i didn't want you to guess either. wtf you on about?
I wanted you to tell me how many allegations of voter fraud you would need there to be to make disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of people worth it.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
My bad sorry, I was waiting for my film to start at the cinema and misread your post.Imploding Turtle wrote:No, i didn't want you to guess either. wtf you on about?
I wanted you to tell me how many allegations of voter fraud you would need there to be to make disenfranchising hundreds of thousands of people worth it.
In regards to disenfranchising X amount of voters with ID requirements, could you consider the possibility they're part of the 30-40% of the eligibilie electorate in the UK who don't vote in general elections?
ID requirements will be neither here nor there for those who aren't bothered about voting.
There are some people who're just never going to vote for varying reasons, including those who're disillusioned with politics as a whole.
If someone really wanted to vote some form of simple ID isn't beyond anyone's reach.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
lol. You think it's gonna be free. Bless.Burnley Ace wrote:One is enough. If you can’t be arsed to get to the Town Hall to get your free voter ID then you are disenfranchising yourself.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Yes I do, like it was free in the trials and negates any argument against it. Hopefully it will be the precursor to a national ID card.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
A national ID card one minute, your own special identification number tattooed on your arm the next.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Why does the age of consent trump all of the other things that you're not legally considered able to do, without parental parental permission or at all, at 16 (leave home, get married, leave "education", watch a scary movie, drink, smoke, make legal contracts, buy a house, buy a knife, serve on a jury, etc.)? All of these suggest that 16-17 year olds aren't judged as responsible enough to make such decisions.Imploding Turtle wrote:You are aware that you can have sex without intending to start a family, right? There are products you can buy that inhibit conception.
My argument, which i've made crystal-*******-clear and yet some how you're still not grasping it, is that you are legally deemed responsible enough to start a family at 16 years old. But deemed NOT legally responsible enough to cast a vote for a politician. And that is clearly ridiculous since obviously choosing to raise a child is a much bigger decision to make than deciding for whom to cast a vote.
You might be right about the DAOR. I remember it having a time limit after beginning training, but the under 18 thing also rings a bell. I'll amend my point then, you're deemed responsible enough to handle an SA80 but not a ballot. I'm sure i don't need to explain why an SA80 requires more responsibility.
You're also viewing the age of consent as if it's sole consideration was when do we view people as old enough to reproduce without taking into account the other factors around it. However, attempting to allow sex at one age but not allow reproduction until a later age is somewhat tricky.
When the age of consent was 12 would you have been pushing for 12 year olds to have the vote? Why is 16 the magic number?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
For balance
We have people who are happy to believe that because they haven't met Johnson he can't be a liar.
Then we have this 16 year old on Question Time
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/sta ... 6406418438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Who deserves the vote more?
We have people who are happy to believe that because they haven't met Johnson he can't be a liar.
Then we have this 16 year old on Question Time
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/sta ... 6406418438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Who deserves the vote more?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I've watched the clip & she raises some valid points, but realistically you've got to look at her position & say men/women of a older age bracket who've worked a great deal of their working lifes, at the end of the day she's 16yrs old & her life is in front of her, I fail to see how she can predict with any certainty about huge generational changes, its speculation on her part, watching it I'm thinking life is tough & that's just the way the cookie crumbles, get over it stop whinging, she's in control of her own destiny.Lancasterclaret wrote:For balance
We have people who are happy to believe that because they haven't met Johnson he can't be a liar.
Then we have this 16 year old on Question Time
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/sta ... 6406418438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Who deserves the vote more?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
She's not though is she?Jakubclaret wrote:I've watched the clip & she raises some valid points, but realistically you've got to look at her position & say men/women of a older age bracket who've worked a great deal of their working lifes, at the end of the day she's 16yrs old & her life is in front of her, I fail to see how she can predict with any certainty about huge generational changes, its speculation on her part, watching it I'm thinking life is tough & that's just the way the cookie crumbles, get over it stop whinging, she's in control of her own destiny.
You have the vote, she does not.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Her turn will come, it's not my fault she's too young, we've all got to wait for certain things.Lancasterclaret wrote:She's not though is she?
You have the vote, she does not.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Her turn will come, but people are a lot more informed at 16 than they were.Jakubclaret wrote:Her turn will come, it's not my fault she's too young, we've all got to wait for certain things.
And in pure demographic terms, you need as many voters as possible, from as many groups as possible to make sure the best decisions are made in the best interests of the country.
Too many old people voting isn't a danger if its counterbalanced by too many 16+ voting
And too many 16+ voting is counter balanced by too many old people voting.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
More hyperbole to try to undermine an appropriate and sensible idea.ClaretAndJew wrote:A national ID card one minute, your own special identification number tattooed on your arm the next.
National ID cards are issued to citizens of all EU countries except Denmark, Ireland and the U.K. Do they all have ID numbers tattooed on their arms or are you just talking ****?
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Under 18's are considered children for numerous good and valid reasons, you can not change that or advocate that surely, therefore you're argument could be they are adults and we should let them vote, or we change the official terminology of when one becomes an adult, say 16 and we take away all there rights of children protection, which I do not believe you're advocatingLancasterclaret wrote:Her turn will come, but people are a lot more informed at 16 than they were.
And in pure demographic terms, you need as many voters as possible, from as many groups as possible to make sure the best decisions are made in the best interests of the country.
Too many old people voting isn't a danger if its counterbalanced by too many 16+ voting
And too many 16+ voting is counter balanced by too many old people voting.
I know a few sensible 14 and 15 year olds to, what if they complain, where do we go, the old are living longer and longer so part of your rationale is to counter balance, so in a few years it will be reduce to 14 then according to your rationale.
The sensible 14 & 15 yr olds I know are all girls, not one boy in the small snapshot of children within my family and also my youngest's friends, none of the boys are what I would call sensible, so maybe you can also just make it all girls who are 16 can have the vote. Obviously this is also wrong and never going to happen, but I believe it is fairly wide spread in the thought that girls mature faster than boys, I really don't understand anyone advocating that we should reduce the age of voting to 16. Thankfully this is not the case for this GE and hope not for any future GE either.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
No one should have the vote. This whole democracy thing is obviously not working as people are idiots, time to revert back to the divine right of kings.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I'm talking about 16 to 17 year olds.KateR wrote:Under 18's are considered children for numerous good and valid reasons, you can not change that or advocate that surely, therefore you're argument could be they are adults and we should let them vote, or we change the official terminology of when one becomes an adult, say 16 and we take away all there rights of children protection, which I do not believe you're advocating
I know a few sensible 14 and 15 year olds to, what if they complain, where do we go, the old are living longer and longer so part of your rationale is to counter balance, so in a few years it will be reduce to 14 then according to your rationale.
The sensible 14 & 15 yr olds I know are all girls, not one boy in the small snapshot of children within my family and also my youngest's friends, none of the boys are what I would call sensible, so maybe you can also just make it all girls who are 16 can have the vote. Obviously this is also wrong and never going to happen, but I believe it is fairly wide spread in the thought that girls mature faster than boys, I really don't understand anyone advocating that we should reduce the age of voting to 16. Thankfully this is not the case for this GE and hope not for any future GE either.
So do me a favour, and remove the completely irrelevant 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
BTW, I'm 100% in favour of the idealism and dynamism of youth ahead of the cynicism and terror of change of the old. And in a rapidly changing world, a voter demographic absolutely **** scared of change could do enormous damage to the county.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Welcome to the board Cersei Lannisterclaret2018 wrote:No one should have the vote. This whole democracy thing is obviously not working as people are idiots, time to revert back to the divine right of kings.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm talking about 16 to 17 year olds.
So do me a favour, and remove the completely irrelevant 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
BTW, I'm 100% in favour of the idealism and dynamism of youth ahead of the cynicism and terror of change of the old. And in a rapidly changing world, a voter demographic absolutely **** scared of change could do enormous damage to the county.
No you're talking drivel, but of course only in my opinion, good luck with your crusade
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I'm genuinely on the fence regarding lowering the voting age; yes, young people today have more more access to information but they also have more access to propaganda and lies. Are they able to think critically at that age on what is fact and make decisions in their best interests? I'd say some are and some aren't. But I'd say exactly the same for 26, 36, 46, 56 year olds etc.Jakubclaret wrote:I've watched the clip & she raises some valid points, but realistically you've got to look at her position & say men/women of a older age bracket who've worked a great deal of their working lifes, at the end of the day she's 16yrs old & her life is in front of her, I fail to see how she can predict with any certainty about huge generational changes, its speculation on her part, watching it I'm thinking life is tough & that's just the way the cookie crumbles, get over it stop whinging, she's in control of her own destiny.
Is a 16-year old susceptible to being manipulated into making a decision based on lies? Probably no more so than adults, judging by this board.
When I was 16 I didn't take politics seriously; during the 1992 election our school ran a mock election in school (think it was a BBC thing. Some kid put himself up as the Labour candidate and another weirdo wanted to be the Tory. Being the rebels we are, we formed our own party on the manifesto of challenging some of the school's more ridiculous rules.
We won a landslide and when I asked the deputy head when we would be able to implement our rule changes he pointed out that the school was not a democracy so basically eff off.
It is only now, all these years later that I should've spent the next years banging on about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE and THE SINGLE LARGEST EXPRESSION OF DEMOCRACY THE SCHOOL HAD EVER SEEN
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Agreed. The issue is that it's all currently being driven by the Tories and what goes in the Withdrawal Agreement and the subsequent trade deal will set the scene for years to come. I can't picture a Corbyn led labour winning the election outright and having the clout to negotiate their own deal so I fully expect that whatever deal comes through will have state aid rules very similar to the current ones.If it be your will wrote:It is often forgotten that the act of leaving the EU is not inherently left or right wing. It can't be. It's what happens after we've left that determines this. I think it absolutely, desperately sad that Corbyn has chucked this election away trying to please remainers, in direct opposition to everything he has believed for decades. I expect he'll never forgive himself for this. I don't know when the left will get another opportunity to govern without the EU's rules. When he loses this election - which is utterly inevitable - the Blairites will be back in charge of Labour for the foreseeable future.
It'll be interesting what manifesto Labour go with. I think he should put out 2 separate documents: one with all the plans if we do leave the EU (which will presumably resemble his 2017 manifesto), and one for if we remain (which will have to be considerably different to his 2017 manifesto).
I don't agree that Corbyn has chucked the election away trying to please remainers. He's tried to please remainers and leavers and not pleased anyone.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
One-off examples are a bit pointless though. That was deemed newsworthy as it's an exception to what you'd expect from a sixteen year old, not the norm.Lancasterclaret wrote:For balance
We have people who are happy to believe that because they haven't met Johnson he can't be a liar.
Then we have this 16 year old on Question Time
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/sta ... 6406418438" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Who deserves the vote more?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Lies & truth shouldn't even be the sole deciding factor anyway. You will only ever find anything out for yourself, I don't think people should you have a automatic entitlement to vote anyway, I think it's should be earnt based on a strict criteria, I'd raise the age to 21 & you'd have to be in full-time (25+hrs) employment & qualify also by undergoing a medical passing a psychological test to determine if you are sane enough, I think giving everybody the right to vote can be a dangerous thing for society.TheFamilyCat wrote:I'm genuinely on the fence regarding lowering the voting age; yes, young people today have more more access to information but they also have more access to propaganda and lies. Are they able to think critically at that age on what is fact and make decisions in their best interests? I'd say some are and some aren't. But I'd say exactly the same for 26, 36, 46, 56 year olds etc.
Is a 16-year old susceptible to being manipulated into making a decision based on lies? Probably no more so than adults, judging by this board.
When I was 16 I didn't take politics seriously; during the 1992 election our school ran a mock election in school (think it was a BBC thing. Some kid put himself up as the Labour candidate and another weirdo wanted to be the Tory. Being the rebels we are, we formed our own party on the manifesto of challenging some of the school's more ridiculous rules.
We won a landslide and when I asked the deputy head when we would be able to implement our rule changes he pointed out that the school was not a democracy so basically eff off.
It is only now, all these years later that I should've spent the next years banging on about THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE and THE SINGLE LARGEST EXPRESSION OF DEMOCRACY THE SCHOOL HAD EVER SEEN
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Right, that's it. You are definitely a spoof account. Well done, you had us.Jakubclaret wrote:Lies & truth shouldn't even be the sole deciding factor anyway. You will only ever find anything out for yourself, I don't think people should you have a automatic entitlement to vote anyway, I think it's should be earnt based on a strict criteria, I'd raise the age to 21 & you'd have to be in full-time (25+hrs) employment & qualify also by undergoing a medical passing a psychological test to determine if you are sane enough, I think giving everybody the right to vote can be a dangerous thing for society.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Lancasterclaret wrote:I'm talking about 16 to 17 year olds.
So do me a favour, and remove the completely irrelevant 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
BTW, I'm 100% in favour of the idealism and dynamism of youth ahead of the cynicism and terror of change of the old. And in a rapidly changing world, a voter demographic absolutely **** scared of change could do enormous damage to the county.
Your not normally prone to say things that sound questionable.
If the old are in terror of change, why then did they vote to come out of the EU.
Apparently staying according to you guys is the status quo and no change so the old should have voted for that.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I see you don’t fancy a minimum IQ.Jakubclaret wrote:Lies & truth shouldn't even be the sole deciding factor anyway. You will only ever find anything out for yourself, I don't think people should you have a automatic entitlement to vote anyway, I think it's should be earnt based on a strict criteria, I'd raise the age to 21 & you'd have to be in full-time (25+hrs) employment & qualify also by undergoing a medical passing a psychological test to determine if you are sane enough, I think giving everybody the right to vote can be a dangerous thing for society.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I picked up on that but I couldn't be bothered continuing on the line of argument, it's contradictory really it's the older generation voting for change & the younger wanting to stick with the same thing.Lowbankclaret wrote:Your not normally prone to say things that sound questionable.
If the old are in terror of change, why then did they vote to come out of the EU.
Apparently staying according to you guys is the status quo and no change so the old should have voted for that.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Because a lot of them seem to think once we leave we'll go back to being a global superpower with a massive empire and all our problems are caused by those bloody foreigners interfering in our affairs.Lowbankclaret wrote:Your not normally prone to say things that sound questionable.
If the old are in terror of change, why then did they vote to come out of the EU.
Apparently staying according to you guys is the status quo and no change so the old should have voted for that.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
jrgbfc wrote:Because a lot of them seem to think once we leave we'll go back to being a global superpower with a massive empire and all our problems are caused by those bloody foreigners interfering in our affairs.
What a load of clap trap.
The empire builders are the EU.
We don’t want to go back to empires, they don’t work.
But with the EU not bleeding us dry, I feel we are better off away from the empire building EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It's not the EU who imposed austerity on us, or are leaving our public services to rot. Its OK though cos I'm sure once we leave the Tories will start investing in the NHS and our rail network, particularly in the North. That's what they're famous for after allLowbankclaret wrote:What a load of clap trap.
The empire builders are the EU.
We don’t want to go back to empires, they don’t work.
But with the EU not bleeding us dry, I feel we are better off away from the empire building EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Because they think the change will be back to pre-EU.Lowbankclaret wrote:Your not normally prone to say things that sound questionable.
If the old are in terror of change, why then did they vote to come out of the EU.
Apparently staying according to you guys is the status quo and no change so the old should have voted for that.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
jrgbfc wrote:Because a lot of them seem to think once we leave we'll go back to being a global superpower with a massive empire and all our problems are caused by those bloody foreigners interfering in our affairs.
more drivel or poor fishing.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I know what you meant, it was a contradiction albeit, aren't that generation better placed to accurately judge that pre-EU life was better back in those days, I can't think of a more suitable group of people to be able to accurately judge. The younger generation certainly can't there wasn't born then. Which generation is it wise to trust, the 1s that can compare change or the 1s that weren't even embryos, seriously?Lancasterclaret wrote:Because they think the change will be back to pre-EU.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Jo Swinson currently being Brillo'd on BBC2, like a cat playing with a mouse.....
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Lancasterclaret wrote:Because they think the change will be back to pre-EU.
No we believe it will be a new UK, a better one.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
jrgbfc wrote:It's not the EU who imposed austerity on us, or are leaving our public services to rot. Its OK though cos I'm sure once we leave the Tories will start investing in the NHS and our rail network, particularly in the North. That's what they're famous for after all
No matter what you think about austerity.
The BANKERS gambled all the money away.
And what’s more they are doing it again.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
The world has changed though, whether people like it or not. Going back to a less globalised, pre internet age isn't going to happen.Jakubclaret wrote:I know what you meant, it was a contradiction albeit, aren't that generation better placed to accurately judge that pre-EU life was better back in those days, I can't think of a more suitable group of people to be able to accurately judge. The younger generation certainly can't there wasn't born then. Which generation is it wise to trust, the 1s that can compare change or the 1s that weren't even embryos, seriously?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I was assuming that had no bearing with the decision making process & lots of other reasons aside globalisation & the Internet age, I think the elderly are well aware that things have progressed from the penny farthings & the bakelite valve radio's.jrgbfc wrote:The world has changed though, whether people like it or not. Going back to a less globalised, pre internet age isn't going to happen.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
jrgbfc wrote:The world has changed though, whether people like it or not. Going back to a less globalised, pre internet age isn't going to happen.
I am confused, (yes easy I know) but who exactly is it that wants to go back and why do you think they want to go back?
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
It’s a remainer myth,that the elderly want to time travel backwards, most I know are forward thinking people, good question by the way.KateR wrote:I am confused, (yes easy I know) but who exactly is it that wants to go back and why do you think they want to go back?
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
I have seen no expert proclaiming this, I am old, I am forward looking person I think, what's past is gone, something's were bad, something's were good but something's are much better now and will ever get better. I was around before we entered the EU, to be honest I can't really remember any change except not having to have different queues at airports and passing through immigration faster which was better. I would say each decade has seen improvements in the general way of life, not down to EU or even which government was in power, certain events triggered worldwide have had effects and I believe the 2020's will be another decade of improvements generally speaking and hopefully I will be there at the end of it to celebrate. Certainly hope we are still not discussing Brexit though but am sure it will get blamed for every upset going forward if it finally happens.Jakubclaret wrote:It’s a remainer myth,that the elderly want to time travel backwards, most I know are forward thinking people, good question by the way.
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Has mass tactical voting occurred previously during a GE? It's not something I can remember but spent numerous years out of the country pre tinternet days and did not vote during those years so I certainly was not paying anywhere near as much attention then as I have to the last few where I can not remember it being a factor
Additionally it seems social media is playing a much bigger role at the start of this one even to the one in 2017, thoughts?
Additionally it seems social media is playing a much bigger role at the start of this one even to the one in 2017, thoughts?
Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
When you look at the Lord Ashcroft polls just after the Brexit vote the majority of Brexit voters thought that life in Britain today is worse than it was 30 years ago. I suspect it's that attitude which makes people think that Brexit voters are harking back to years gone by.KateR wrote:I am confused, (yes easy I know) but who exactly is it that wants to go back and why do you think they want to go back?
As to why they think that, that's one for the Brexit voters.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Quite the reverse, in fact. The EU is the protectionist inward-looking entity here; with Brexit, the UK has the chance to become an unfettered free trade nation with anyone that wants free trade. Yes, even the EU, if they want free trade with us.jrgbfc wrote:The world has changed though, whether people like it or not. Going back to a less globalised, pre internet age isn't going to happen.
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Re: Brexit: The Naked Truth
Your last line is simplistic and shows an abject lack of understanding of what has happened in the Labour party in the last 12 months. The first thing to establish is that Corbyn and Mcdonnell are leavers. They've always been leavers. They've articulately explained why they're leavers many, many times in the past. I agree with them as to why they want to leave the EU. If they really have changed their mind in some 'Road to Demascus' moment, then they need to offer an explanation in order for this dramatic reversal to look credible. They have offered no explanation.aggi wrote:Agreed. The issue is that it's all currently being driven by the Tories and what goes in the Withdrawal Agreement and the subsequent trade deal will set the scene for years to come. I can't picture a Corbyn led labour winning the election outright and having the clout to negotiate their own deal so I fully expect that whatever deal comes through will have state aid rules very similar to the current ones.
I don't agree that Corbyn has chucked the election away trying to please remainers. He's tried to please remainers and leavers and not pleased anyone.
What really happened is this: They had opponents - largely in the Blair camp - and supporters in the socialist camp. Corbyn and McDonnell faced a difficult choice. They could either please their supporters or they could please their opponents. At every turn they foolishly chose the latter - mandatory reselection, IHRA, and now Brexit. Each time they went with appeasing the Blairites. But they were never going to please their opponents whatever they did, and now they're trapped desperately pretending to support things - e.g. 'remain' - they absolutely don't, and looking utterly ridiculous in the process. They were even happy to hang their staunchest supporters like Cris Williamson out to dry to try and please the Blairites.
That's how they've upset both leavers and remainers. Not by triangulation on Brexit, nor by some ham-fisted attempt at uniting the leave and remain camps. They've upset everyone by becoming ridiculous, disingenuous, and embarrassing. The result of this election will be every blairites dream: a heavy Corbyn defeat.