350 Million

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by taio » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 pm

thomaspaine wrote:The Tories have really excelled themselves in this pre- election period with the amount of mis-truths ,half-truths and downright blatant lies they have propogated. Just watch Piers Morgan and Suzanne Reids demolition of Nicky Morgan concerning the number of 'new' nurses if you want to see five minutes of pure comedy. It really is an exercise in saying the same thing over and over again in a vain attempt to convince yourself that its true.These half - wits are obviously told by the Tory hierarchy not to deviate from the mantra/script even when proven to be lying through their teeth.The truely sad thing about this is not the lies per se, but the disdain they have for the electorate.
Haven't seen the interview with Morgan. But the Tories have committed to increase the number of nurses by 50,000. Surely it doesn't matter how they would achieve such an increase or if they are all new nurses. Indeed it would be better to retain more experienced and skilled nurses. If they increase full time nurses from 280,000 to 330,000 that would be 50,000 additional nurses. That seems entirely logical irrespective of whether they would deliver on the commitment which is certainly questionable but that's a different argument.

joey13
Posts: 7501
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 1767 times
Has Liked: 1230 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by joey13 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:53 pm

taio wrote:Haven't seen the interview with Morgan. But the Tories have committed to increase the number of nurses by 50,000. Surely it doesn't matter how they would achieve such an increase or if they are all new nurses. Indeed it would be better to retain more experienced and skilled nurses. If they increase full time nurses from 280,000 to 330,000 that would be 50,000 additional nurses. That seems entirely logical irrespective of whether they would deliver on the commitment which is certainly questionable but that's a different argument.
I suggest you try to obtain the facts before posting complete rubbish
This user liked this post: Chip Harrison

taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by taio » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:55 pm

joey13 wrote:I suggest you try to obtain the facts before posting complete rubbish
Why is it rubbish? I'm happy to hold my hands up if that's the case. I haven't had time to follow how this particularly story has unfolded. Please tell me what the facts are.
Last edited by taio on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joey13
Posts: 7501
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 1767 times
Has Liked: 1230 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by joey13 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:56 pm

taio wrote:Why is it rubbish? I'm happy to hold my hands up if that's the case. I haven't had time with how this particularly story has unfolded.
For one have a look at the interview with Morgan

taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by taio » Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:58 pm

joey13 wrote:For one have a look at the interview with Morgan
What are the facts?

Was her key point that by training new nurses, bringing in nurses from overseas and reducing the number of nurses that leave the profession will all contribute to the 50,000 increase in the number of nurses in the NHS? If it was what is wrong with that logic?

joey13
Posts: 7501
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 1767 times
Has Liked: 1230 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by joey13 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:07 pm

taio wrote:What are the facts?
The facts are there won’t be 50,000 new nurses as there won’t be 40 new hospitals
This user liked this post: Chip Harrison

taio
Posts: 11520
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:17 am
Been Liked: 3220 times
Has Liked: 340 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by taio » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:10 pm

joey13 wrote:The facts are there won’t be 50,000 new nurses as there won’t be 40 new hospitals
As I said that would be a different argument. Did Morgan say the increase would be achieved through new nurses, appointing nurses from overseas and retaining more nurses? If so what's wrong with that?

RalphCoatesComb
Posts: 8049
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:38 pm
Been Liked: 2415 times
Has Liked: 2115 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RalphCoatesComb » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:43 pm

Shouldn't this be merged with the "Election" thread? Stops you opening up dross!

joey13
Posts: 7501
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 1767 times
Has Liked: 1230 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by joey13 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:25 pm

RalphCoatesComb wrote:Shouldn't this be merged with the "Election" thread? Stops you opening up dross!
Shall we merge all football threads into one ?
If you don’t like it why comment nobody is forcing you :roll:

2 Bee Holed
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:37 am
Been Liked: 548 times
Has Liked: 31 times
Location: South Manchester

Re: 350 Million

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:46 am

TVC15 wrote:Well some of them may have voted leave because they believed the country would be better off financially - it wasn’t just what was said on the bus. A big part of the campaign revolved around the savings that could be gained by leaving.
It’s far more believable as a reason for voting than your version !

Blaming the countries and their own economic plight on the amount of immigration was another reason people voted leave - another complete load of sh-ite banded about by leavers
TVC15.

You seem to think this is my version, I am telling you austerity, poverty and being at the bottom, as I put it 'living a s**t life', was one of the major reasons people voted Leave.
I thought this was understood by Remainers, clearly not:
Dont' take my word for it, here are the Joseph Rowntree Foundations research key findings.

"Key findings:
The poorest households, with incomes of less than £20,000 per year, were much more likely to support leaving the EU than the wealthiest households, as were the unemployed, people in low-skilled and manual occupations, people who feel that their financial situation has worsened, and those with no qualifications.
Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver. Other things being equal, support for leave was 30 percentage points higher among those with GCSE qualifications or below than it was for people with a degree. In contrast, support for leave was just 10 points higher among those on less than £20,000 per year than it was among those with incomes of more than £60,000 per year, and 20 points higher among those aged 65 than those aged 25.
Support for Brexit varied not only between individuals but also between areas. People with all levels of qualifications were more likely to vote leave in low-skill areas compared with high-skill areas. However, this effect was stronger for the more highly qualified. In low-skilled communities the difference in support for leave between graduates and those with GCSEs was 20 points. In high-skilled communities it was over 40 points. In low-skill areas the proportion of A-level holders voting leave was closer to that of people with low-skills. In high-skill areas their vote was much more similar to graduates.
Groups in Britain who have been ‘left behind’ by rapid economic change and feel cut adrift from the mainstream consensus were the most likely to support Brexit. These voters face a ‘double whammy’. While their lack of qualifications put them at a significant disadvantage in the modern economy, they are also being further marginalised in society by the lack of opportunities that faced in their low-skilled communities. This will make it extremely difficult for the left behind to adapt and prosper in future."


Try as I might, I cannot see the amount sent to Brussels or the figure written on the bus include in this research's findings, nor can I see the word immigration. People at the bottom wanted change.
These 2 users liked this post: KateR RingoMcCartney

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by TVC15 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:05 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:TVC15.

You seem to think this is my version, I am telling you austerity, poverty and being at the bottom, as I put it 'living a s**t life', was one of the major reasons people voted Leave.
I thought this was understood by Remainers, clearly not:
Dont' take my word for it, here are the Joseph Rowntree Foundations research key findings.

"Key findings:
The poorest households, with incomes of less than £20,000 per year, were much more likely to support leaving the EU than the wealthiest households, as were the unemployed, people in low-skilled and manual occupations, people who feel that their financial situation has worsened, and those with no qualifications.
Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver. Other things being equal, support for leave was 30 percentage points higher among those with GCSE qualifications or below than it was for people with a degree. In contrast, support for leave was just 10 points higher among those on less than £20,000 per year than it was among those with incomes of more than £60,000 per year, and 20 points higher among those aged 65 than those aged 25.
Support for Brexit varied not only between individuals but also between areas. People with all levels of qualifications were more likely to vote leave in low-skill areas compared with high-skill areas. However, this effect was stronger for the more highly qualified. In low-skilled communities the difference in support for leave between graduates and those with GCSEs was 20 points. In high-skilled communities it was over 40 points. In low-skill areas the proportion of A-level holders voting leave was closer to that of people with low-skills. In high-skill areas their vote was much more similar to graduates.
Groups in Britain who have been ‘left behind’ by rapid economic change and feel cut adrift from the mainstream consensus were the most likely to support Brexit. These voters face a ‘double whammy’. While their lack of qualifications put them at a significant disadvantage in the modern economy, they are also being further marginalised in society by the lack of opportunities that faced in their low-skilled communities. This will make it extremely difficult for the left behind to adapt and prosper in future."


Try as I might, I cannot see the amount sent to Brussels or the figure written on the bus include in this research's findings, nor can I see the word immigration. People at the bottom wanted change.
That’s your interpretation of the findings.
The findings as you say don’t mention immigration or what was on the bus - but then again they don’t mention any reasons why people at the bottom wanted change.
It’s a pretty logical assumption that they don’t want change just for the sake of change so there will be a whole range of reasons behind this - and I would be amazed if a belief that they would be better off financially and that there would be less immigration were not some of the reasons people voted to leave.

I already said that it’s not specifically what was on the bus but that this contributed to a view at the time that many people thought that leaving Europe would save the country significant money - and the natural follow on from that (as per the bus lies) was this money can be used to help end austerity.

The fact that those people suffering the most poverty voted more in favour to leave is not a big revelation - it’s pretty obvious that they have been hit by austerity harder than others and that they are more like to believe something that they think will end the austerity. I agree with you that keeping the status quo and remaining was not something that most of them were ever going to believe - why should they ? So what is left is that they believe that leaving will make their lives financially better.

2 Bee Holed
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:37 am
Been Liked: 548 times
Has Liked: 31 times
Location: South Manchester

Re: 350 Million

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:53 am

TVC15 wrote:So what is left is that they believe that leaving will make their lives financially better.
We are starting to agree!
Now if you can just accept that they voted for change because they have s**t lives and it couldn't possibly get any sh***ier, and there was just a faint chance of them having some hope that things might improve just by the smallest of fractions, then we are in complete agreement and indeed you would then agree with my "f*cked up rationale" as you described it. :D

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by TVC15 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:02 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:We are starting to agree!
Now if you can just accept that they voted for change because they have s**t lives and it couldn't possibly get any sh***ier, and there was just a faint chance of them having some hope that things might improve just by the smallest of fractions, then we are in complete agreement and indeed you would then agree with my "f*cked up rationale" as you described it. :D
Very funny / very you !
If you voted leave (or remain) and you were from down south you didn’t vote for them because you are from down south !!....is what I am saying.
I am saying these people voted leave because they thought change (or leaving) would make their lives better - economically.
Why did they think that ?
Answer - because they chose (or were desperate to) believe the lies - one of these big lies was the bus. A lot of people at the time genuinely believed the country would save a shed load of money by leaving - and of course the hope that leads to a slightly better life is more important to the ones in greater poverty.
Think we are kind of agreeing but I know I am more right than you !!!!

2 Bee Holed
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:37 am
Been Liked: 548 times
Has Liked: 31 times
Location: South Manchester

Re: 350 Million

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:30 pm

TVC15 wrote:Very funny / very you !
If you voted leave (or remain) and you were from down south you didn’t vote for them because you are from down south !!....is what I am saying.
I am saying these people voted leave because they thought change (or leaving) would make their lives better - economically.
Why did they think that ?
Answer - because they chose (or were desperate to) believe the lies - one of these big lies was the bus. A lot of people at the time genuinely believed the country would save a shed load of money by leaving - and of course the hope that leads to a slightly better life is more important to the ones in greater poverty.
Think we are kind of agreeing but I know I am more right than you !!!!
OK you win.
I have got other stuff to do.
The £350m figure was ridiculed at the time and certainly before the referendum.
But as you say the poor thought that they would get it and it would make them better off,
even though it was written on the bus that it would go to the NHS.
But as I say, you win.

RalphCoatesComb
Posts: 8049
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:38 pm
Been Liked: 2415 times
Has Liked: 2115 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RalphCoatesComb » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:53 pm

joey13 wrote:Shall we merge all football threads into one ?
It happens to be a Football forum NOT ELECTION & POLITICS :roll:

Wile E Coyote
Posts: 8507
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:22 pm
Been Liked: 2887 times
Has Liked: 1760 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Wile E Coyote » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:07 pm

if they genuinely want to build houses, properly fund the health service, provide more teaching staff and adequate police numbers, then they should scrap the ludicrous Trident system. That would guarantee savings ten times the 350 million figure slapped across a bus three years ago !!
This user liked this post: AndrewJB

SussexDon1inIreland
Posts: 6217
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:23 pm
Been Liked: 1277 times
Has Liked: 8528 times
Location: Greystones Ireland

Re: 350 Million

Post by SussexDon1inIreland » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:21 pm

I thought I read that in a recent High court case where someone sued Johnson about the amount on the side of the bus was a lie that the figure we pay the EU a week was correct and because we didn’t leave last March we are still paying that much a week

Taffy on the wing
Posts: 4600
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 am
Been Liked: 1020 times
Has Liked: 3163 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:55 am

BennyD wrote:I saw the original advertisement and, like everything politicians spout, I ignored it. Did I think it would actually happen? Hell no. I voted leave because I made my own mind, not because some politician made it up for me.
Not believable!

Taffy on the wing
Posts: 4600
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 am
Been Liked: 1020 times
Has Liked: 3163 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:55 am

BennyD wrote:I saw the original advertisement and, like everything politicians spout, I ignored it. Did I think it would actually happen? Hell no. I voted leave because I made my own mind, not because some politician made it up for me.
Not believable!

Taffy on the wing
Posts: 4600
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:41 am
Been Liked: 1020 times
Has Liked: 3163 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Taffy on the wing » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:21 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:jrgbfc….you still don't get it.

Life could not be worse than it already is for millions of people....how could it get worse?
Stay tuned..........all you have to do is vote for the serial liar Boris Johnson & you'll find out!
What's more, you deserve it for being so ill-informed.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by martin_p » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:31 am

SussexDon1inIreland wrote:I thought I read that in a recent High court case where someone sued Johnson about the amount on the side of the bus was a lie that the figure we pay the EU a week was correct and because we didn’t leave last March we are still paying that much a week
You didn’t because it’s not what we pay.
This user liked this post: Siddo

joey13
Posts: 7501
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 pm
Been Liked: 1767 times
Has Liked: 1230 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by joey13 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:21 am

RalphCoatesComb wrote:It happens to be a Football forum NOT ELECTION & POLITICS :roll:
Irony alert :lol:

SussexDon1inIreland
Posts: 6217
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:23 pm
Been Liked: 1277 times
Has Liked: 8528 times
Location: Greystones Ireland

Re: 350 Million

Post by SussexDon1inIreland » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:01 am

https://order-order.com/2019/07/04/judg ... ss-figure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Court confirms £350million is correct figure

TVC15
Posts: 8211
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 pm
Been Liked: 3321 times
Has Liked: 601 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by TVC15 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:34 am

SussexDon1inIreland wrote:https://order-order.com/2019/07/04/judg ... ss-figure/

Court confirms £350million is correct figure
Let’s not do this again but the court did this because they know it was a ridiculous thing to bring to court - surprised the guy was not charged with wasting public time / resources.
Does not mean it was right - it did not say gross on the bus and the whole basis of the campaign was that the £350m would be available for the NHS when very clearly you cannot make the gross figure available.
It’s spin at best - but my view will always be it was deliberate deceit of the public - but it was never going to stand up in a judicial system that is ran by the very people Boris was rodgering at Eton

KateR
Posts: 4139
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 1018 times
Has Liked: 6157 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by KateR » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:38 pm

you spin things to your thinking all the time, but seem to object when someone else does it that you do not agree with, it's all a matter of perception in the end as no one knows the outcome yet.

Damo
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:04 pm
Been Liked: 1777 times
Has Liked: 2761 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Damo » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:44 pm

I cant believe this is still something that is discussed when it comes to brexit.
Nobody thought that brexit would result in an extra £350 million pounds per week being spent on the NHS, flood defences or any other project.
Remainers didnt think that either, despite what they say.
Its basically people looking for a silly excuse because they couldn't believe, that more than half of people who voted, had a different opinion to themselves

KateR
Posts: 4139
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm
Been Liked: 1018 times
Has Liked: 6157 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by KateR » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:53 pm

I have to say I was surprised by the result although not shocked, looking at the regions and the difference in votes really did show the country as to be divided, I would say I believe a lot of people saw the bus and equated it to, we will stop paying the EU and therefore spend it here in the UK which should make lives better.

What really surprises me by the independent report from 2 Bee is that income appears to be a big differentiator, yet most remain supports on here tend to spout the theory of only the rich, beyond some magical line would support the Tories yet they seem to be the remainers from the report, this is an enigma/conundrum for me.

dougcollins
Posts: 6603
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:23 am
Been Liked: 1780 times
Has Liked: 1778 times
Location: Yarkshire

Re: 350 Million

Post by dougcollins » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:17 pm

Damo wrote:I cant believe this is still something that is discussed when it comes to brexit.
Nobody thought that brexit would result in an extra £350 million pounds per week being spent on the NHS, flood defences or any other project.
Remainers didnt think that either, despite what they say.
Its basically people looking for a silly excuse because they couldn't believe, that more than half of people who voted, had a different opinion to themselves

I actually know people who voted to leave based very much on what was on the side of that bus.
Though they were probably the same people who thought a fleet of wagons would go out the day after the referendum and round up all the 'immigrants'.
These 2 users liked this post: tim_noone Siddo

kentonclaret
Posts: 6437
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:06 pm
Been Liked: 969 times
Has Liked: 204 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by kentonclaret » Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:05 pm

As soon as the figure of £350 million a week extra for the NHS was exposed as a blatant lie the fallback position for Leavers became "Oh well, surely nobody ever really believed that anyway."

The next myth being peddled during this election campaign is that Britain will be calling the shots with the USA over what is, and what isn't, included in any forthcoming Free Trade negotiations. Donald Trump has always believed, and often stated, that the US drug companies are being ripped off by countries he referred to as "freeloaders" who are not paying a fair price for drugs. Donald Trump has demonstrated that he is perfectly willing to "weaponise" trade and use it as a sanction against countries he feels are not conforming. The idea that Britain will be setting the agenda is fanciful and reminiscent of the claim made during the EU Referendum that "they need us more than we need them". The EU held all the cards over Brexit as will the US when it comes to negotiating a Free Trade Deal, especially when we will have turned our backs on our major trading partner(s).

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:10 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:OK you win.
I have got other stuff to do.
The £350m figure was ridiculed at the time and certainly before the referendum.
But as you say the poor thought that they would get it and it would make them better off,
even though it was written on the bus that it would go to the NHS.
But as I say, you win.
In a nutshell remoaners simply do not accept that when people voted to leave this country had, by then , had 40 odd years of being in Europe. It hadn't been something that might happen. The UK had actually had 40 odd years of being in the socio, economic and political experiment that had morphed from a common market into what is now the EU.

This 40 odd years had given people something. Objectivity. The ability to assess whether or not EU membership had been , either a good thing , or a bad thing.

The majority that voted, decided that it had been a bad thing and voted to Leave.

Many on the losing side simply accepted it. Others have been less willing or able to move on from their initial state of bewilderment.

Consequently, nearly four years on, we're left with a dwindling , hardcore noisy rump of , often, angry section of the electorate. That still haven't come to terms with what the bulk of the population has. Despite the passage of time. They've been unable to see Leave voters as making a considered, thoughtful, objective and , informed by 40 odd years, decision, when they voted Leave. Instead, they've been reduced to making lazy, 1 dimensional assumptions, that Leave voters are easily lead gullible , sheep-like fools , that saw some writing on a bus and in an unthinking moment went and put an "X" next to Leave.

Approximately 5 million labour voters voted Leave. Many Remoaners, when these people vote Labour are happy to describe them as , "considerd" as "caring for the less well off" as "having a strong moral compass" as "sophisticated" as "showing compassion for the marginalised" even "defenders of the NHS". However, when these very same people had the audacity to vote Leave, when many of them believed theyd finally be listened to, after years of being ignored by the London centric establishment and political class. And voting Leave meant change. Well! All of a sudden these very same people are "knuckle draggers", "xenophobic racists" , "Little Englanders" "pitch fork wielding , swivel eyed nazis" " uneducated parochial , provincial, narrow minded bigots" that fell for the " lie on a bus". A truly schizophrenic view of the same people!

The last line of your post above-
2 Bee Holed wrote: "But as I say, you win".
Shows a humble, admirable, but, entirely, misplaced acceptance , that you were on the losing side.

It's a pity that so many of those, still bewildered by the referendum result, are unable to follow your example......

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Jakubclaret » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:51 am

We could or we will regarding the 350 mill, will always baffle some people to the grave, pause & think it's simple, No lies but convincing some.

2 Bee Holed
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:37 am
Been Liked: 548 times
Has Liked: 31 times
Location: South Manchester

Re: 350 Million

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:39 am

Thank you RingoMcCartney for putting it better than I could.

Likely Scenario:
40% vote Tory in 2 weeks time, and 60% vote for other parties who are vehemently against the Tories, Boris wins a 100+ majority in the House of Commons. As we have always done, we accept that this is the largest single party and Boris is the winner and PM. I thought this was called Democracy by consensus?

Unlikely Scenario:
Lets say The Lib Dems achieve 35% in 2 weeks time and Swinson becomes PM with a majority of 10.
She revokes Article 50 and we stay in the EU.

Would Remainers now expect Leavers to just accept the result?

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3952 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:07 am

2 Bee Holed wrote:
Likely Scenario:
40% vote Tory in 2 weeks time, and 60% vote for other parties who are vehemently against the Tories, Boris wins a 100+ majority in the House of Commons. As we have always done, we accept that this is the largest single party and Boris is the winner and PM. I thought this was called Democracy by consensus?
No it's not consensus at all. It's democracy distorted by the FPTP system. (40% having total control, when the vast majority are against).
And I would say the same if any other party got a 100 seat majority based on achieving less than 50% f the votes.

BennyD
Posts: 3603
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:10 am
Been Liked: 1338 times
Has Liked: 757 times
Location: Nantwich

Re: 350 Million

Post by BennyD » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:04 pm

Taffy on the wing wrote:Not believable!
I don’t give a flying fart about what you believe. I’ve wanted out of the EU for the past 20 odd years and putting money into the NHS didn’t really matter to me as I’ve got private health. So like I said, I made my own mind up and didn’t have it made up for me by a politician.
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:34 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:Thank you RingoMcCartney for putting it better than I could.

Likely Scenario:
40% vote Tory in 2 weeks time, and 60% vote for other parties who are vehemently against the Tories, Boris wins a 100+ majority in the House of Commons. As we have always done, we accept that this is the largest single party and Boris is the winner and PM. I thought this was called Democracy by consensus?

Unlikely Scenario:
Lets say The Lib Dems achieve 35% in 2 weeks time and Swinson becomes PM with a majority of 10.
She revokes Article 50 and we stay in the EU.

Would Remainers now expect Leavers to just accept the result?
You're more than welcome my friend.


I've previously asked the same question.

If, following a libdem government produced by the current general election, tore up Article 50 and stopped brexit , even without a 2nd referendum. Then, subsequently, later, a new government, maybe tory/brexit party, was returned on the anger of democracy being thwarted. Which then took us out of the European union without a 2nd referendum, how would you feel?

I've yet to get an answer.

You will not get an answer.

Why? Because in doing so it would force remoaners to stop, think and reflect just how fundamentally undemocratic they are. Theyd have to own up to being absolutely livid that the UK could end it's current relationship with the EU, without their voice being democratically heard. Yet, their quite at ease when they consider and accept that a libdem government would be quite prepared to ignore and over ride, the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed, at the stroke of a pen, just as long as their wishes are implemented.

They will not accept a simple fact.


Democracy- it means sometimes you lose........
Last edited by RingoMcCartney on Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

2 Bee Holed
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:37 am
Been Liked: 548 times
Has Liked: 31 times
Location: South Manchester

Re: 350 Million

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:08 pm

nil_desperandum wrote:No it's not consensus at all. It's democracy distorted by the FPTP system. (40% having total control, when the vast majority are against).
And I would say the same if any other party got a 100 seat majority based on achieving less than 50% f the votes.
nil-desperandum.
I assume you were somebody who voted in the 2011 referendum on changing our voting system?
Massive lot of interest there was in that!

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RingoMcCartney » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:11 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:Thank you RingoMcCartney for putting it better than I could.

Likely Scenario:
40% vote Tory in 2 weeks time, and 60% vote for other parties who are vehemently against the Tories, Boris wins a 100+ majority in the House of Commons. As we have always done, we accept that this is the largest single party and Boris is the winner and PM. I thought this was called Democracy by consensus?

Unlikely Scenario:
Lets say The Lib Dems achieve 35% in 2 weeks time and Swinson becomes PM with a majority of 10.
She revokes Article 50 and we stay in the EU.

Would Remainers now expect Leavers to just accept the result?

You're more than welcome my friend.


I've previously asked the same question.

If, following a libdem government produced by the current general election, tore up Article 50 and stopped brexit , even without a 2nd referendum. Then, subsequently, later, a new government, maybe tory/brexit party, was returned on the anger of democracy being thwarted. Which then took us out of the European union without a 2nd referendum, how would you feel?

I've yet to get an answer.

You will not get an answer.

Why? Because in doing so it would force remoaners to stop, think and reflect just how fundamentally undemocratic they are. Theyd have to own up to being absolutely livid that the UK could end it's current relationship with the EU, without their voice being democratically heard. Yet, their quite at ease when they consider and accept that a libdem government would be quite prepared to ignore and over ride, the largest single expression of democracy this nation has ever witnessed, at the stroke of a pen, just as long as their wishes are implemented.

They will not accept a simple fact.


Democracy- it means sometimes you lose........

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Spijed » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:06 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:Democracy- it means sometimes you lose........
So why has Boris ruled out another Scottish referendum, even if there is a desire for one in Scotland?

Democracy - it means you have to listen to the public.

2 Bee Holed
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:37 am
Been Liked: 548 times
Has Liked: 31 times
Location: South Manchester

Re: 350 Million

Post by 2 Bee Holed » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:12 pm

Spijed wrote:So why has Boris ruled out another Scottish referendum?....
The result of that referendum and indeed all the ones prior to 2016 has/have been enacted.

The reason it's still an issue is that the losing side haven't accepted the result, sound familiar?
A further reason it is still an issue though is that the losing side are actually the governing party is Scotland.

nil_desperandum
Posts: 7301
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:06 pm
Been Liked: 1823 times
Has Liked: 3952 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by nil_desperandum » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:15 pm

2 Bee Holed wrote:nil-desperandum.
I assume you were somebody who voted in the 2011 referendum on changing our voting system?
Massive lot of interest there was in that!
Well - personally, I did, (despite reservations), because so far as most people were concerned it was asking the wrong question, since it wasn't really a vote for PR. Clegg and the liberals were stupid to accept this compromise and should have made a proper vote on referendum a pre-condition for making any sort of Alliance with Cameron.
There was only a 40% turnout, (or something similar), and I don't think that any one group really tried to engage the electorate. I think that following the Scottish referendum and the 2016 EU referendum the turnout would be a lot higher now.

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 am

Spijed wrote:So why has Boris ruled out another Scottish referendum, even if there is a desire for one in Scotland?

Democracy - it means you have to listen to the public.
Ask Boris why he's ruled another Scottish referendum out.

"Democracy- it means you have to listen to the public " you say.

That's what a referendum is. The voice of the public.

In a democracy the government implements what the public voice instructs it to do.

martin_p
Posts: 10368
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 pm
Been Liked: 3764 times
Has Liked: 696 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by martin_p » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:10 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:Ask Boris why he's ruled another Scottish referendum out.

"Democracy- it means you have to listen to the public " you say.

That's what a referendum is. The voice of the public.

In a democracy the government implements what the public voice instructs it to do.
You still don’t understand how our democracy works after all this time

Dazzler
Posts: 4418
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:10 am
Been Liked: 875 times
Has Liked: 2332 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Dazzler » Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:19 am

martin_p wrote:You still don’t understand how our democracy works after all this time

Those that have not got what they wanted start blubbering like spoilt brats?
This user liked this post: RingoMcCartney

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:37 am

Dazzler wrote:Those that have not got what they wanted start blubbering like spoilt brats?
Saves me saying it!

Cheers fella.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10843
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5521 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by TheFamilyCat » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:12 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:In a nutshell remoaners simply do not accept that when people voted to leave this country had, by then , had 40 odd years of being in Europe. It hadn't been something that might happen. The UK had actually had 40 odd years of being in the socio, economic and political experiment that had morphed from a common market into what is now the EU.

This 40 odd years had given people something. Objectivity. The ability to assess whether or not EU membership had been , either a good thing , or a bad thing.

The majority that voted, decided that it had been a bad thing and voted to Leave.

Many on the losing side simply accepted it. Others have been less willing or able to move on from their initial state of bewilderment.

Consequently, nearly four years on, we're left with a dwindling , hardcore noisy rump of , often, angry section of the electorate. That still haven't come to terms with what the bulk of the population has. Despite the passage of time. They've been unable to see Leave voters as making a considered, thoughtful, objective and , informed by 40 odd years, decision, when they voted Leave. Instead, they've been reduced to making lazy, 1 dimensional assumptions, that Leave voters are easily lead gullible , sheep-like fools , that saw some writing on a bus and in an unthinking moment went and put an "X" next to Leave.

Approximately 5 million labour voters voted Leave. Many Remoaners, when these people vote Labour are happy to describe them as , "considerd" as "caring for the less well off" as "having a strong moral compass" as "sophisticated" as "showing compassion for the marginalised" even "defenders of the NHS". However, when these very same people had the audacity to vote Leave, when many of them believed theyd finally be listened to, after years of being ignored by the London centric establishment and political class. And voting Leave meant change. Well! All of a sudden these very same people are "knuckle draggers", "xenophobic racists" , "Little Englanders" "pitch fork wielding , swivel eyed nazis" " uneducated parochial , provincial, narrow minded bigots" that fell for the " lie on a bus". A truly schizophrenic view of the same people!

The last line of your post above-



Shows a humble, admirable, but, entirely, misplaced acceptance , that you were on the losing side.

It's a pity that so many of those, still bewildered by the referendum result, are unable to follow your example......
Those damn remoaners eh?

If only Boris "get Brexit done" Johnson and his pals had voted for May's deal to, er, get Brexit done we wouldn't still be here would we?

RingoMcCartney
Posts: 10318
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:45 pm
Been Liked: 2636 times
Has Liked: 2798 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by RingoMcCartney » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:17 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:12 am
Those damn remoaners eh?

If only Boris "get Brexit done" Johnson and his pals had voted for May's deal to, er, get Brexit done we wouldn't still be here would we?

"Here" isn't a particularly bad place to be right now, as far as I'm concerned.

Siddo
Posts: 958
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:48 am
Been Liked: 374 times
Has Liked: 1860 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Siddo » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:53 am

BennyD wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:04 pm
I don’t give a flying fart about what you believe. I’ve wanted out of the EU for the past 20 odd years and putting money into the NHS didn’t really matter to me as I’ve got private health. So like I said, I made my own mind up and didn’t have it made up for me by a politician.
Is this post a wind up?
If not, you have just made me realise why I have always voted Labour. A party that genuinely cares for people that may not have the ability to care for themselves and their families. People whose circumstances are so different from yours. But Labour don't mock or condemn these people, they try to improve their lot.
It might not work, but at least they try.
The Conservatives would just ignore them and carry on giving big business huge tax cuts.
And still people vote for them.
To me, that is the biggest mystery of our times.

TheFamilyCat
Posts: 10843
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:56 pm
Been Liked: 5521 times
Has Liked: 208 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by TheFamilyCat » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:08 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:17 pm
"Here" isn't a particularly bad place to be right now, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, you sound ecstatic in the post I quoted. But I know you have a short attention span so you've probably forgotten what you wrote.

Still, you won so **** the consequences

willsclarets
Posts: 1927
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:06 am
Been Liked: 680 times
Has Liked: 133 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by willsclarets » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:24 am

"Advertising doesn't work on me"

Greenmile
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:50 pm
Been Liked: 1081 times
Has Liked: 4241 times

Re: 350 Million

Post by Greenmile » Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:34 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:17 pm
"Here" isn't a particularly bad place to be right now, as far as I'm concerned.
Here in the EU?
This user liked this post: Rick_Muller

Post Reply