Brexit: Uniting the Country Since 31/01/2020

[BennyD]

After 4 years of this cr4p, why on earth would one want to watch the BBC’s version of it? The world won’t end at 11pm on Friday, but another one full of opportunities will start on Saturday.

[KateR]

Brexit is interesting in many aspects though, what has happened, how we ended up here and for the future and I mean years to come. It will be taught as an essential part of history and we are actually living through this "drama" that will surely shape the country for years to come, the books and movies that will be available for years on the back of this long running saga. Surely it is the most acrimonious division of the people in the nation since Oliver Cromwell versus the crown and plenty of people, not just here making stances with all the so called experts getting there 2 minutes of fame. Would we ever have seen BJ as PM but for the referendum, when certain people release there memoirs it might be interesting to read and look back and think, ahhhh, now I can see why they did a certain thing, do the EU regret not giving Cameron a little bit more and preventing the referendum, was it a big gamble they lost, are the EU just a little bit afraid of what might be?

I suppose we will just have to wait and see how the saga pans out, some optimistically and those with a pessimist outlook for the future, will it in the grand scheme of things make a huge difference to us all or will it be business as usual.

sorry for the ramblings

[aggi]

There really is some Brexit tat out there, you'd have thought that with theRussians the Conservatives would be OK for cash

https://shop.conservatives.com/collecti ... -tea-towel

[aggi]

Brexit is interesting in many aspects though, what has happened, how we ended up here and for the future and I mean years to come. It will be taught as an essential part of history and we are actually living through this "drama" that will surely shape the country for years to come, the books and movies that will be available for years on the back of this long running saga. Surely it is the most acrimonious division of the people in the nation since Oliver Cromwell versus the crown and plenty of people, not just here making stances with all the so called experts getting there 2 minutes of fame. Would we ever have seen BJ as PM but for the referendum, when certain people release there memoirs it might be interesting to read and look back and think, ahhhh, now I can see why they did a certain thing, do the EU regret not giving Cameron a little bit more and preventing the referendum, was it a big gamble they lost, are the EU just a little bit afraid of what might be?

I suppose we will just have to wait and see how the saga pans out, some optimistically and those with a pessimist outlook for the future, will it in the grand scheme of things make a huge difference to us all or will it be business as usual.

sorry for the ramblings

I think the referendum would have happened regardless of what concessions were offered. You only have to look at a fair number of the posts here blaming the EU for things like the UK government not enacting rules on welfare for immigrants or the decline in manufacturing jobs to see that for many the EU were going to be the scapegoat regardless of facts. The push for an ever harder Brexit (compare the deals mooted pre-referendum to the more recent push for No Deal) suggests that no compromise would be enough for a lot of the people involved.

[evensteadiereddie]

After 4 years of this cr4p, why on earth would one want to watch the BBC’s version of it? The world won’t end at 11pm on Friday, but another one full of opportunities will start on Saturday.

Yes it will, no it won't or perhaps it might.
We shall see - I don't think much will happen as soon as Saturday itself, though, to be honest.

[RMutt]

There really is some Brexit tat out there, you'd have thought that with the Russians the Conservatives would be OK for cash

Talking of the Russians, when are we going to see the enquiry document that has been held back since November?

[TheFamilyCat]

There really is some Brexit tat out there, you'd have thought that with theRussians the Conservatives would be OK for cash

https://shop.conservatives.com/collecti ... -tea-towel

That's an arsewipe, right?

[Devils_Advocate]

That's an arsewipe, right?

Yep and spare a thought for the poor care workers who have to wipe their arses

[KateR]

I think the referendum would have happened regardless of what concessions were offered. You only have to look at a fair number of the posts here blaming the EU for things like the UK government not enacting rules on welfare for immigrants or the decline in manufacturing jobs to see that for many the EU were going to be the scapegoat regardless of facts. The push for an ever harder Brexit (compare the deals mooted pre-referendum to the more recent push for No Deal) suggests that no compromise would be enough for a lot of the people involved.

Obviously one can only speculate on what we do not know for sure, but I "felt" that DC was desperate not to have a referendum, he used it as a bargaining tool against the EU and in a threating manner. His bluff was called and the rest is history as you say, although I do agree with you if he had not gone the referendum route there would be many still blaming the EU for all there faults, bit the same on here and Hendrick, plus other before and those to come in the future.

Yet it did happen and I suppose both the EU and the UK are worried what might be and know it could have been avoided, many have embraced or at least purport to, we will see how quickly that tide turns, yet those opposed I fear will never accept where we are and some will be adamant that not one jot of anything good can come out this future reality we are in.

[Devils_Advocate]

I think Cameron used the referendum more as a tool to try and resolve the divides within his own party that have torn themselves apart over Europe for decades.

Unfortunately the Tory's managed to drag the whole country in to the mix and lead us into the biggest sh*t show we've seen for a long long time.

[KateR]

I think Cameron used the referendum more as a tool to try and resolve the divides within his own party that have torn themselves apart over Europe for decades.

Unfortunately the Tory's managed to drag the whole country in to the mix and lead us into the biggest sh*t show we've seen for a long long time.

It's opinion, probably shared by quite a few however at the end of the day just an opinion, I believe it could have been handled better but it is not down to a single person.

[KateR]

just as an aside I just saw: MEPs ratified the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement by 621 votes to 49 following an emotional debate in Brussels.

I do wonder what the 49 were thinking, was there some way they could have stopped the UK leaving in a few days, I certainly did not believe so,, just curious that's all

[JohnMcGreal]

just as an aside I just saw: MEPs ratified the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement by 621 votes to 49 following an emotional debate in Brussels.

I do wonder what the 49 were thinking, was there some way they could have stopped the UK leaving in a few days, I certainly did not believe so,, just curious that's all

No. We'd still be leaving on Friday at 23:00 even if the withdrawal agreement wasn't ratified, because that's when Article 50 expires. The ratification today just means we'll be leaving with the withdrawal agreement in place and not with 'no deal'.

[CrosspoolClarets]

HS2 is expected to be in the news from today.

I found a very interesting background to the new Old Oak Common hub near Shepherd’ Bush, the key point being is that the name HS2 is rubbish - the speed is probably the least of the benefits and that hasn’t been advertised enough. To me it seems crucial for the north to go ahead.

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/0 ... n-station/

[CombatClaret]

It's opinion, probably shared by quite a few however at the end of the day just an opinion, I believe it could have been handled better but it is not down to a single person.

People giving a sh*t about the EU was at nearly it's lowest point right around the time Cameron, the Conservatives and some dark money decided to make it the countries biggest diving issue.

[Devils_Advocate]

We've not heard a lot from Rees-Mogg of late but he has been busy the last few days deleting a load of Tweets about Brexit and May's deal as the Tory's start their revisionism around what Brexit means.

Don't worry though guys, papers like the Telegraph and the Mail will let you know what you need to think and believe once they have come up with a plan and a set of bullsh*t to peddle to you all

[dsr]

People giving a [deleted] about the EU was at nearly it's lowest point right around the time Cameron, the Conservatives and some dark money decided to make it the countries biggest diving issue.

At the 2015 general election, more than 1 in 8 voters decided that voting for UKIP and a referendum was more important than voting for a party of government - because that's how many people voted UKIP, 12.6% of the voters. Better than 1 in 8 thought it was so important to vote for a chance toleave the EU that they were willing to leave the party of government to chance.

And that was even though Cameron had promised a referendum. That's a lot of votes for a protest vote / fringe issue. This idea that no-one cared is simply not true.

[CombatClaret]

At the 2015 general election, more than 1 in 8 voters decided that voting for UKIP and a referendum was more important than voting for a party of government - because that's how many people voted UKIP, 12.6% of the voters. Better than 1 in 8 thought it was so important to vote for a chance toleave the EU that they were willing to leave the party of government to chance.

And that was even though Cameron had promised a referendum. That's a lot of votes for a protest vote / fringe issue. This idea that no-one cared is simply not true.

Not saying no one cared, saying what the poll say that fewest people cared about the EU circa 2010.
Trouble as I see it a lot of issues were then projected onto the EU. For example Cummings said one of the key winners and make a leave vote "Not a vote against the EU but FOR the NHS".

[evensteadiereddie]

Will the first instalment of the extra 350 million quid a week for the NHS be paid on Saturday or next Monday, I wonder ?

Happy days !

[AndrewJB]

Will the first instalment of the extra 350 million quid a week for the NHS be paid on Saturday or next Monday, I wonder ?

Happy days !

Don’t forget the sunlit uplands. It’s all looking so good that Javid has already backtracked on ending austerity, only three months after making the promise. Must be to do with the mess the economy was in...ten years ago...

[aggi]

Will the first instalment of the extra 350 million quid a week for the NHS be paid on Saturday or next Monday, I wonder ?

Happy days !

It will be sometime next week I guess, the Conservative tea towel says that Boris "Got Brexit Done" so I can't see any reason why not. I guess it depends what day of the week they used to send the cheque over to the EU. I assume that the plan is just to cross out "EU" and write in "NHS".

I must say I'm surprised at the lack of interviews with happy NHS staff, you'd think they weren't getting £350m a week or something.

[TheFamilyCat]

Can we just take a minute to spare a thought for those poor UKIP MEPs who are now unemployed.

[aggi]

HS2 is expected to be in the news from today.

I found a very interesting background to the new Old Oak Common hub near Shepherd’ Bush, the key point being is that the name HS2 is rubbish - the speed is probably the least of the benefits and that hasn’t been advertised enough. To me it seems crucial for the north to go ahead.

https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2019/0 ... n-station/

I'm not against HS2 and certainly agree that the capacity part of it has been woefully under-emphasised.

However, I'm not convinced that the best way to make the North more prosperous is to make it easier to commute to London. The example of OOC making it easier to get into Euston from Milton Keynes isn't going to encourage jobs being moved out of the capital and into the North. Barely anyone is going to be living in London and working in Birmingham, the numbers just don't work.

Burnley doesn't have a terrible train service because it's sharing a line with express trains going to London. It has a terrible service due to a lack of investment and the priority being London and I don't see how HS2 will change that.

[RMutt]

I'm not against HS2 and certainly agree that the capacity part of it has been woefully under-emphasised.

However, I'm not convinced that the best way to make the North more prosperous is to make it easier to commute to London. The example of OOC making it easier to get into Euston from Milton Keynes isn't going to encourage jobs being moved out of the capital and into the North. Barely anyone is going to be living in London and working in Birmingham, the numbers just don't work.

Burnley doesn't have a terrible train service because it's sharing a line with express trains going to London. It has a terrible service due to a lack of investment and the priority being London and I don't see how HS2 will change that.

Agreed, it’s difficult not to be cynical about these large infrastructure projects that seem to be Londoncentric. London gets crossrail and we get the Todmorden curve. Why not start the project up here and work gradually south? Thus giving the Northern Powerhouse an earlier boost and provide jobs where they are needed more. I can see an apology on the horizon where the bit north of Birmingham gets scaled back due to lack of funding as the cost escalates. Similar in fact to the train carriages that ended up being transferred south and the live lane motorway safety areas that are 500 metres on the M25 and 1500 metres everywhere else because of cost. Have there been any large scale infrastructure projects north of Watford? Our new northern Tory MP’s could play a part here but if Jake Berry is going to be used as an example I’m not going to hold my breath.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Agreed, it’s difficult not to be cynical about these large infrastructure projects that seem to be Londoncentric. London gets crossrail and we get the Todmorden curve. Why not start the project up here and work gradually south? Thus giving the Northern Powerhouse an earlier boost and provide jobs where they are needed more. I can see an apology on the horizon where the bit north of Birmingham gets scaled back due to lack of funding as the cost escalates. Similar in fact to the train carriages that ended up being transferred south and the live lane motorway safety areas that are 500 metres on the M25 and 1500 metres everywhere else because of cost. Have there been any large scale infrastructure projects north of Watford? Our new northern Tory MP’s could play a part here but if Jake Berry is going to be used as an example I’m not going to hold my breath.

I completely agree, that could all happen. The train though has left the station so to speak, the diggers are already underway in the south, cancelling now would still cost billions. None of us knows if Boris was in charge at the time if it would have started in the north.

The only thing I do know is that the status quo of the last 20 years wasn’t working for northerners apart from a few lucky professionals. The era of Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and May was a disaster (apart from a few rebuilt public services under Blair). It isn’t a great life if all we are given is a nice shiny hospital to die in. HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail will be unprecedented for us up here, lets just make sure it happens.

[Zlatan]

Glad the Brexit thread is back. I want to ask all those who voted for Boris what they thought about Northern Rail being nationalised after the campaign from Boris against nationalisation of rail companies?

[Devils_Advocate]

That he's buggered off and left Corbyn in charge maybe

Because those of us who remember State owned railways, remember what a crock of **** they were !!

And for them to happen, Corbyn would have to be Prime Minister, oh dear !!

[KateR]

yes I can see why it would be better to stay in the EU and keep paying them money and have Labour in charge, with the way they work budgets and manifestos they would have HS2 and the high speed between Hull and Liverpool all up and running smoothly within the time it with take Boris and Co to actually leave the EU. While sorting the rail issue out they would have course been ensuring all the broadband links to every corner of Britain were up and running.

However give BJ a little latitude, payments to the EU continue throughout 2020 and possibly beyond, so obviously according to the popular Labour stance on here, or perhaps the anti Tory stance, they have nothing from the famous or infamous 350MM to give to the NHS right now do they?

[evensteadiereddie]

350 million quid was promised to the NHS per week and it can't happen ? I don't think you need to have any particular political stance to point out bullshit.

[aggi]

yes I can see why it would be better to stay in the EU and keep paying them money and have Labour in charge, with the way they work budgets and manifestos they would have HS2 and the high speed between Hull and Liverpool all up and running smoothly within the time it with take Boris and Co to actually leave the EU. While sorting the rail issue out they would have course been ensuring all the broadband links to every corner of Britain were up and running.

However give BJ a little latitude, payments to the EU continue throughout 2020 and possibly beyond, so obviously according to the popular Labour stance on here, or perhaps the anti Tory stance, they have nothing from the famous or infamous 350MM to give to the NHS right now do they?

You mean the tea towel was lying when it said "Got Brexit Done"?

[aggi]

This is amazing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MichaelPDeac ... 0695227398

Screenshot_20200130-212835.jpg (745.41 KiB) Viewed 2964 times

[ClaretAndJew]

I saw a Twitter thread which contrasted the Daily Mail Online comments regarding the nationalisation of the railway, once when Corbyn suggested it and now the Tories have done it.

I'm sure you can all figure out what the comments were.

Never mind.

[AndrewJB]

I completely agree, that could all happen. The train though has left the station so to speak, the diggers are already underway in the south, cancelling now would still cost billions. None of us knows if Boris was in charge at the time if it would have started in the north.

The only thing I do know is that the status quo of the last 20 years wasn’t working for northerners apart from a few lucky professionals. The era of Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and May was a disaster (apart from a few rebuilt public services under Blair). It isn’t a great life if all we are given is a nice shiny hospital to die in. HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail will be unprecedented for us up here, lets just make sure it happens.

I can see how you place your expectations on Johnson being different than the previous Tory leaders - so therefore his government could also be different, but looking at their manifesto, or what they actually got elected on (rather than things he may have just said to people during the election); there's nothing really there in terms of promises for the north. In fact actual Tory policy is all about enriching their southern heartlands, hence this, which takes money away from northern poorer areas, and gives it to richer mostly southern boroughs: https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ing-review People who voted Tory in northern seats need to contact their new MPs and lobby for a change in this policy.

[dsr]

Glad the Brexit thread is back. I want to ask all those who voted for Boris what they thought about Northern Rail being nationalised after the campaign from Boris against nationalisation of rail companies?

It's not actually all that difficult.. Labour's position is that all railways should be nationalised no matter what. The Tories' position is that railways as a matter of principle shouldn't be nationalised, but if the private company charged with running a certain area is so incompetent that the service is verging on useless, then their franchise should be taken away and the service run in the short term by the government, pending a new company taking over.

[aggi]

Happy Brexit Day everyone.

Now that the preamble has been sorted the important stuff is about to start with the new trade deals that will define the future of the country for the next few generations.

[RingoMcCartney]

Happy Brexit Day everyone.

Now that the preamble has been sorted the important stuff is about to start with the new trade deals that will define the future of the country for the next few generations.

Happy Brexit Day aggi.

Did you watch Question Time last night?

[TVC15]

It's not actually all that difficult.. Labour's position is that all railways should be nationalised no matter what. The Tories' position is that railways as a matter of principle shouldn't be nationalised, but if the private company charged with running a certain area is so incompetent that the service is verging on useless, then their franchise should be taken away and the service run in the short term by the government, pending a new company taking over.

Yep that’s one way of describing it.
Another way is that the Tory policy is to allow a few of their rich mates to run every rail franchise into the ground, f-uck up peoples lives for years, make our trains the most expensive in Europe despite the service being one of the worst....and then finally admit that their policy was wrong and nationalise them.

It’s strange how a different set of words gives you a different perspective.

[dsr]

Yep that’s one way of describing it.
Another way is that the Tory policy is to allow a few of their rich mates to run every rail franchise into the ground, [deleted] up peoples lives for years, make our trains the most expensive in Europe despite the service being one of the worst....and then finally admit that their policy was wrong and nationalise them.

It’s strange how a different set of words gives you a different perspective.

Especially since your set of words bears little resemblance to the truth.

Clever use of swearing, though. It's always impressive when someone uses their intellectual power to bypass the swear filter because it makes their argument more compelling. Part of the "I know there are reasons why we have a swear filter, but they don't apply to me" attitude.

[aggi]

Happy Brexit Day aggi.

Did you watch Question Time last night?

I didn't. I watch it when I happen to catch it but I'm less of a fan of it now where the focus often seems to be on who can shout loudest and talk over the others rather than reasoned debate.

[TVC15]

Especially since your set of words bears little resemblance to the truth.

Clever use of swearing, though. It's always impressive when someone uses their intellectual power to bypass the swear filter because it makes their argument more compelling. Part of the "I know there are reasons why we have a swear filter, but they don't apply to me" attitude.

Which bit does not resemble the truth ?
Do we not have one of the most expensive train services in Europe ?
Do we not have one of the worst levels of service in Europe for a country of our size and supposed economic wealth ?
Has the Tory policy of privatising the rail service worked ?
Are the Tories now bringing the rail franchises back into nationalisation because they think privatising them has clearly failed ?

Which bit of that is not the truth ?

Thanks btw for the patronising comments on swearing - how very intellectual of you to point that out. Of course you must be more than intellectual than myself or anybody else who swears. Would it have made any difference to the argument if I had said they had made a “jolly fine mess“ of the rail service ?....is that the kind of language clever people like you make ? I’ll bear it in mind and hopefully one day I can be almost as intellectual as you.

[dsr]

Which bit does not resemble the truth ?
Do we not have one of the most expensive train services in Europe ?
Do we not have one of the worst levels of service in Europe for a country of our size and supposed economic wealth ?
Has the Tory policy of privatising the rail service worked ?
Are the Tories now bringing the rail franchises back into nationalisation because they think privatising them has clearly failed ?

Which bit of that is not the truth ?

Thanks btw for the patronising comments on swearing - how very intellectual of you to point that out. Of course you must be more than intellectual than myself or anybody else who swears. Would it have made any difference to the argument if I had said they had made a “jolly fine mess“ of the rail service ?....is that the kind of language clever people like you make ? I’ll bear it in mind and hopefully one day I can be almost as intellectual as you.

There is a swear filter to stop people swearing. Presumably because this isn't one of those sites that children are banned from reading. If you think that people trying to stop swearing in front of children is a bad thing, then that's your point of view. Is "jolly fine mess" the only alternate word for what you put? Even if you don't like the rule, why do you think the swear filter shouldn't apply to you?

There are twice as many people use the trains nowadays as there were at the time denationalisation happened. Is that a sign of success, or of failure? And the Tories don't have a policy of nationalising the rail services. They have a policy of removing the licence of failing train companies and running them on a government-owned basis until a new private company is appointed. It's a different thing, and I'm sorry you can't see that.

[RingoMcCartney]

I didn't. I watch it when I happen to catch it but I'm less of a fan of it now where the focus often seems to be on who can shout loudest and talk over the others rather than reasoned debate.

Pity.

For the opening 20 minutes they discussed trains. They were complaining about the standard of trains and they werent concerned about getting " from north to south" , " you cant get ACROSS the country", "money should be spent getting from North to North." The leader of the farmers union said something on the lines of a "londoncentric opinion" and a "transport policy dominated by London, while the rest of the country has been forgotten"

Who was saying very similar things back in September?

[RingoMcCartney]

Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:59 pm

Public transport -

I doubt Andrew has caught one of the Soviet standard , one an hour chuggers, that are being passed off as "trains" that run between Preston and colne.

The dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers assume the rest of the country is as over indulged with public infrastructure, and transport as their entitled and spoilt selves.

Is it any wonder that people like him wanted to maintain the status quo?

Mystic McCartney was!

[Rowls]

I'll be having a nice cuppa tea to celebrate later on.

[aggi]

Pity.

For the opening 20 minutes they discussed trains. They were complaining about the standard of trains and they werent concerned about getting " from north to south" , " you cant get ACROSS the country", "money should be spent getting from North to North." The leader of the farmers union said something on the lines of a "londoncentric opinion" and a "transport policy dominated by London, while the rest of the country has been forgotten"

Who was saying very similar things back in September?

Yes I probably mentioned that in September, I've been saying the same thing for years (in fact there's a post of me saying the same thing about a dozen posts above this one in response to Crosspool saying that HS2 will be good for the north).

[Spijed]

Mystic McCartney was!

Ringo, I assume you class the victims of Geenfell tower as part of the metropolitan elite, considering you think all parts of London are the same

[TVC15]

There is a swear filter to stop people swearing. Presumably because this isn't one of those sites that children are banned from reading. If you think that people trying to stop swearing in front of children is a bad thing, then that's your point of view. Is "jolly fine mess" the only alternate word for what you put? Even if you don't like the rule, why do you think the swear filter shouldn't apply to you?

There are twice as many people use the trains nowadays as there were at the time denationalisation happened. Is that a sign of success, or of failure? And the Tories don't have a policy of nationalising the rail services. They have a policy of removing the licence of failing train companies and running them on a government-owned basis until a new private company is appointed. It's a different thing, and I'm sorry you can't see that.

It’s hilarious that you think twice as many people being unhappy about the train service is a sign of success !

I thought with you being intellectually superior you might understand that twice as many people using the trains might just be a sign of a few other far relevant factors. Eg the decline of traditional industries, the growth of the service industries, the mass movement of employees from their local towns to city centres, etc.
None of that means that we have a satisfactory train service - twice as many people using them is in no way whatsoever a sign of success - all it is a sign of the failure of the country to deal with the change in the way many people have to get to work. Is twice as many people using their cars to get to work a sign that our roads are getting better ?

Your comments on whether the Tory Party do or do not have a policy of nationalising the rail service is purely semantics. It does not matter whether they do or do not - the facts are that this is what they are doing. And the relevant point is why they are doing it ?
It’s good that they are admitting that their policy of privatisation has failed - it’s not good that they did it in the first place.

[evensteadiereddie]

Mystic McCartney was!

Here we go, here we go, here we go......Christ, Ringo lad, you've been doing so well lately.

[RingoMcCartney]

Ringo, I assume you class the victims of Geenfell tower as part of the metropolitan elite, considering you think all parts of London are the same

No. That's silly. The metropolitan bubble dwellers. The dwellers of the metropolitan London borough of Ivory Towers are those that for decades have wrongly assumed that their experience of life. A lofty , kept in clover , entitled, privileged and middle class life in london is the same experience as the vast vast majority of people in this country. They've applied that experience to those they clearly feel they're superior to,
often spouting lofty pontificating, pronouncements as they go along.

James Obrian personifies it perfectly. As does Emily Thornberry, Starmer, Adonis, Gina Miller, Campbell, Joleyon Mohan, Bercow, Grieve, etc, etc.

Well, he and his fellow metropolitan bubble dwellers , the Establishment , the Westminster class have had a rude awakening havent they!

[RingoMcCartney]

Yes I probably mentioned that in September, I've been saying the same thing for years (in fact there's a post of me saying the same thing about a dozen posts above this one in response to Crosspool saying that HS2 will be good for the north).

Good for you!

I'm far less likely to post on political stuff , now we are officially out of the European union.

However, perhaps you wont be so quick to dismiss what I have to say, simply because I'm the one saying it.

You see, by my track record, unlike Lancasterclarets groundless claim of, "I do have the unfortunate habit of being proven right most of the time!"

I really do!

Whether you like it or not, my views more often than not are in tune with what the majority end up expressing through the ballot box.

I'll say one thing though aggi. You and I are polar opposites, re brexit. But kudos to you, you've never ever resorted to foul or abusive language, or as a last resort ended up making up groundless , childish, personal accusations about me.You've stuck to your arguement. Without the need to do any of that.

So fair play to you.