If we all bought more BRITISH designed/manufactured/assembled goods...

[IanMcL]

Is a DNO an upgrade on DNA?

[Cryssys]

The FACT I think you need to be aware of is simply that if the EU either stop us trading with our European neighbours (highly unlikely in the extreme) or make it very difficult through high tariffs (very possible) then they will stand accused, even by their own member nations, of political/economic bullying/protectionism of the highest order. Which brings me back to the question 'do we really want to be a member of such an organisation'?

"political/economic bullying/protectionism of the highest order."

So, a bit like Donald Trump and the USA then.

[CombatClaret]

I think you just proved my point bud. You can't even use your own humour, you have to nick it off someone else from Google. I don't even understand it. What did I distort exactly? You probably won't answer that either. Maybe you should consult Google again.

Go back to my original post about the economies of the world, where there do I suggest we will cease all trade with the EU? And If I did not why do you ask me such an insane question?
You've asked me to defend a belief I never held, that is by definition the straw man fallacy.

As highlighted by Rowl maybe people should consult Google a little more before they post opinions based on complete untruths.

[houseboy]

Go back to my original post about the economies of the world, where there do I suggest we will cease all trade with the EU? And If I did not why do you ask me such an insane question?
You've asked me to defend a belief I never held, that is by definition the straw man fallacy.

If that is the case why didn't you simply answer the question? And why post those 'facts' if you weren't trying to argue for a remain position? You didn't answer because to do so would have destroyed your own argument methinks.

[KateR]

I like the OP question and thoughts, but it is aspirational and not a Strategic or Tactical method that works, this has been proven before, however also a lot of tosh on many other points, great argument for oranges not to be produced here in the UK because we would need greenhouses so more costly while conveniently forgetting about shipping costs from other countries. There are many opportunities that will open up for people to jump on and make money, for example, a huge amount of flowers sold in Britain come from one location in the Netherlands, acres of greenhouses, there is an opportunity for some or even one of our many garden centres to expand and fill that void in the UK and also to start exporting potentially.

I read with interest in regard to China, if you go back far enough Japan & Hong Kong were the laughable cheap products in the UK, but they exported everywhere and there standard of living rose and so there goods became better and more expensive. China moved in to fill that cheap products status however for quite a number of years now China has been facing what happened to Japan and they are nervelessly looking at Vietnam and Philippines to step in to there market, I don't believe that will be long in the grand scheme of things.

The man in the street will always look for what he wants at the lowest price, Britain can not compete in that market but they can compete against comparable markets hence why Germany & France are driving the 27 EU to make things difficult during this negotiation period, fine line when dealing with a competitor and can go either way. However it is bad news for the EU to have lost the British support and budget contribution, now it is down to how much trade do they lose. Yes Yes, I know that is the downside for the EU and there is potential downside for the UK but there is a potential upside which I can not see for the EU in reality unless they can somehow wrestle the massive financial services side of London away, but that is a big ask.

[basil6345789]

We are not little Britain though. We live in a global environment. I'm not looking forward to watching tv on a British television, or eating avocados from Lincolnshire as the small minded leavers seem to think is possible.
Let's buy British. Let's make Britain great again, like we used to be....
Let's just make Geoff Boycott minister for Britain....
And no, there wouldn't be better jobs going forward as who on earth would buy, shoddier, less reliable and more expensive produce and consumables?

Couldn't disagree more. As for "small minded leavers", that's bigotry.

[dougcollins]

So when was Britain great?

It was pretty sh!t in the sixties when I was a kid, so further back than that?

[basil6345789]

So when was Britain great?

It was pretty sh!t in the sixties when I was a kid, so further back than that?

The Great bit never meant great as in exellence, rather it meant great as in greater, when the union with Scotland took place - a bit like Greater Manchester - all about size.
I thought the 60's were wonderful but that's just my opiion- I respect yours.

[Rowls]

So when was Britain great?

Bit of an open-ended question really so difficult to answer.

But just in case you're not being ironic I am duty bound to point out that the "Great" in Great Britain refers to the size of our island; it is not a qualitative judgment.

[AndrewJB]

Some actually do, it's complete & utter madness it's funny, because we've left the EU trade will be impossible going forwards despite the billions involved, it's a load of Baloney. Nearly every single negative prediction forecast hasn't transpired.

We are still in the single market and customs union, and every other aspect of membership except a voice, until next year. How are we supposed to see the ill effects before the circumstances that create the ill effects are in place?

Europe is the wealthiest market, and by good fortune is our nearest. If we put up trade barriers then our trade with Europe will suffer. It’s not rocket science. Presumably this is why our PM is working night and day to get us a good deal with the EU.

[Jakubclaret]

We are still in the single market and customs union, and every other aspect of membership except a voice, until next year. How are we supposed to see the ill effects before the circumstances that create the ill effects are in place?

Europe is the wealthiest market, and by good fortune is our nearest. If we put up trade barriers then our trade with Europe will suffer. It’s not rocket science. Presumably this is why our PM is working night and day to get us a good deal with the EU.

Osbourne & cairney from the bat the money men made predictions which weren't true & other people have. So what if trade suffers it'll suffer for them also, we can diversify & become self sufficient, boycott EU products, we can manage perfectly fine as a independent country control immigration & regain sovereignty, it'll sort itself out.

[dougcollins]

Bit of an open-ended question really so difficult to answer.

But just in case you're not being ironic I am duty bound to point out that the "Great" in Great Britain refers to the size of our island; it is not a qualitative judgment.

I'm pretty sure that the leavers I know aren't basing it on the criteria that you describe when they use the term 'Making Britain great again'.

[Rowls]

I'm pretty sure that the leavers I know aren't basing it on the criteria that you describe when they use the term 'Making Britain great again'.

Get to know some better Leavers.

[dougcollins]

They come in varieties?

[rob63]

They come in varieties?

Apparently, like snacks.........but for the good of your health, avoid the ones that are too salty or sour & definitely swerve the nuts!

[Cryssys]

Apparently, like snacks.........but for the good of your health, avoid the ones that are too salty or sour & definitely swerve the nuts!

Doesn't leave much to choose from if you do that.

[Cryssys]

So what if trade suffers it'll suffer for them also, we can diversify & become self sufficient, boycott EU products, we can manage perfectly fine as a independent country control immigration & regain sovereignty, it'll sort itself out.

Do you really believe that we can boycott European products and become self sufficient? Because if you do then you shouldn't be surprised when people laugh at you.

As for "it'll sort itself out" perhaps Boris could use that as his next strap line.

Brexit: It'll sort itself out! ©

©Jakubclaret

[CoolClaret]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ITyd1Pzek0

I strongly recommend watching this video - on protectionism/mercantilism vs free trade

[Jakubclaret]

Do you really believe that we can boycott European products and become self sufficient? Because if you do then you shouldn't be surprised when people laugh at you.

As for "it'll sort itself out" perhaps Boris could use that as his next strap line.

Brexit: It'll sort itself out! ©

©Jakubclaret

Can you factually predict I’m wrong? You’ll be the only 1 who can & you will also be contradicting Andrew & the circumstances & ill effects.

[Bin Ont Turf]

I remember being told buying from India and Asia was risky as it was cheap and nasty product, that is far from the truth these days.

The truth is that it is cheaper though.

That's why this country is basically a big office instead of the busy workshop it once was.

High end engineering we've still got, but other engineering and manufacturing skills we still continuously lose, and probably forever.

Sat in an office or actually making things, we've gone right on the turn there. The UK, a one big office.

[CombatClaret]

Can you factually predict I’m wrong? You’ll be the only 1 who can & you will also be contradicting Andrew & the circumstances & ill effects.

The 'You can never prove we won't discover unicorns exist in the future' Brexit argument.

[JohnMcGreal]

So you don't want to answer the questions then? Do you understand why I asked them? It's not a question of belief. The questions I asked WILL one day be answered by the actions of the EU. If they are willing to destroy those relationships I mentioned on a point of principle in some way then they would stand accused of being what many think they are - undemocratic bullies. If they don't then we don't have very much to worry about do we? Which would make your facts a little meaningless really.
The FACT I think you need to be aware of is simply that if the EU either stop us trading with our European neighbours (highly unlikely in the extreme) or make it very difficult through high tariffs (very possible) then they will stand accused, even by their own member nations, of political/economic bullying/protectionism of the highest order. Which brings me back to the question 'do we really want to be a member of such an organisation'?

[ChrisG]

Some decent small independent British clothing manufacturers out there. I've got a pair of jeans made in Bolton with cloth woven in Foulridge.

Lanx shoes are made in Whalley.

Then we've got fellow Claret, Iain Trickett knocking out some excellent British made rigs.

[dougcollins]

So we really are going to be living on turnips and mangel wurzels.

[Cryssys]

Can you factually predict I’m wrong? You’ll be the only 1 who can & you will also be contradicting Andrew & the circumstances & ill effects.

I'll stick my neck out here and say yes, you are wrong. There is no way the UK, or any other developed economy for that matter, can become self sufficient.

P.S. Who the hell is Andrew and how am I contradicting him? What circumstances and ill effects are you referring to?

[Jakubclaret]

I'll stick my neck out here and say yes, you are wrong. There is no way the UK, or any other developed economy for that matter, can become self sufficient.

P.S. Who the hell is Andrew and how am I contradicting him? What circumstances and ill effects are you referring to?

It was a couple of posts above the original quoted counter post, basically stating no predictions can be made just yet, so if that applies to him it must also apply to me regarding my positive brexit outlook, we become self sufficient by ramping up UK manufacturing & source everything (almost) out of the EU & crack on exploring WTO was the general jist.

[Hipper]

When I bought a Peugeot bike years ago I noted that everything on it - brakes, gears, saddle etc. - was French made. I looked at a comparable Raleigh and it had a British saddle, Swiss brakes and Japanese gears.

Which was better? I don't know but I think Raleigh were more open minded about what they put on their bike. Of course it may not have been just quality or innovation that were the criteria, but this was the 1970s before global trading had gone to the levels we have now.

I think it's good that we can and do look outwards. Blindly buying British is small minded unless it is of at least equal quality.

[Jakubclaret]

When I bought a Peugeot bike years ago I noted that everything on it - brakes, gears, saddle etc. - was French made. I looked at a comparable Raleigh and it had a British saddle, Swiss brakes and Japanese gears.

Which was better? I don't know but I think Raleigh were more open minded about what they put on their bike. Of course it may not have been just quality or innovation that were the criteria, but this was the 1970s before global trading had gone to the levels we have now.

I think it's good that we can and do look outwards. Blindly buying British is small minded unless it is of at least equal quality.

We throw & tip so many bicycles away it's absolutely unbelievable, instead of repairing them & stripping parts off other bikes, becoming self sufficient would enable some sort of scheme where HWRC become open to the public to collect as well as disposing. 2 seperate facilities into 1.

[basil6345789]

I'll stick my neck out here and say yes, you are wrong. There is no way the UK, or any other developed economy for that matter, can become self sufficient.

P.S. Who the hell is Andrew and how am I contradicting him? What circumstances and ill effects are you referring to?

I believe that Turkey has all the natural resources it needs and, although it chooses to trade, could get by if neceessary.

[Sausage]

Some decent small independent British clothing manufacturers out there. I've got a pair of jeans made in Bolton with cloth woven in Foulridge.

Lanx shoes are made in Whalley.

Then we've got fellow Claret, Iain Trickett knocking out some excellent British made rigs.

Chris, what's the name of the company in Bolton?

As for Lanx shoes, I've got a pair and they're fantastic. Not cheap (and not the most expensive either), but certainly great quality. And the Lanx boys are Clarets fans.

[Mala591]

Several months ago I decided to buy a new car (my first ever NEW car). I did a lot of research into compact/medium sized SUV's and I short listed five models all of which had good reviews from numerous expert motoring sources.

My final choice was not the most reliable or the best handling 'most enjoyable to drive' recommendation but was perfectly adequate for my requirements and it was a British designed/engineered/assembled car with a combination of British and European parts.

I wanted to support our 'brothers and sisters' in Sunderland and having owned the car for 2 months I am delighted with it.

Nissan Qashqai 1.5 tdi (clean ad-blue diesel) automatic (new DCT transmission).

110 g/km of CO2 and average 55 mpg which is amazing for an automatic car.

The point I am making is that we DO often have choices to buy more locally produced manufactured goods and the UK will have a much better future if we all make a little more effort to do so.

[ChrisG]

Chris, what's the name of the company in Bolton?

As for Lanx shoes, I've got a pair and they're fantastic. Not cheap (and not the most expensive either), but certainly great quality. And the Lanx boys are Clarets fans.

Joe and Co Denim make them. Like the shoes, not cheap but great gear. He's based out of Altrincham Market. Has an instagram page which is worth a look.
https://wearejoeandco.com/

[Spike]

It’s our financial services industry that has made africa poor. Debt. We already buy a lot of natural resources from Africa and that is often quite cheap because we’ve engaged with (or helped create and continue) the corruption there making natural resources cheap. Until they rid themselves of the debts we’ve sold them, and the corruption we’ve benefitted from in stealing their resources, they won’t have much money to buy things we make.

So we’re going to need a trade deal with Europe.

fail to see how the UK Financial services industry has made Africa poor.

other forces maybe

[houseboy]

Go back to my original post about the economies of the world, where there do I suggest we will cease all trade with the EU? And If I did not why do you ask me such an insane question?
You've asked me to defend a belief I never held, that is by definition the straw man fallacy.

As highlighted by Rowl maybe people should consult Google a little more before they post opinions based on complete untruths.

Google will provide facts. Google will also provide facts that prove those facts wrong. It's what Google does. For just about every 'fact' you find on Google you will find another 'fact' that 'proves' the opposite. Never take what Google says as gospel mate or you will start believing the world is run by lizard men for the planet Zog.

[CombatClaret]

Google will provide facts. Google will also provide facts that prove those facts wrong. It's what Google does. For just about every 'fact' you find on Google you will find another 'fact' that 'proves' the opposite. Never take what Google says as gospel mate or you will start believing the world is run by lizard men for the planet Zog.

Ok mate, go back to my OP and find me the some facts which disprove mine.

[Lowbankclaret]

I like the OP question and thoughts, but it is aspirational and not a Strategic or Tactical method that works, this has been proven before, however also a lot of tosh on many other points, great argument for oranges not to be produced here in the UK because we would need greenhouses so more costly while conveniently forgetting about shipping costs from other countries. There are many opportunities that will open up for people to jump on and make money, for example, a huge amount of flowers sold in Britain come from one location in the Netherlands, acres of greenhouses, there is an opportunity for some or even one of our many garden centres to expand and fill that void in the UK and also to start exporting potentially.

I read with interest in regard to China, if you go back far enough Japan & Hong Kong were the laughable cheap products in the UK, but they exported everywhere and there standard of living rose and so there goods became better and more expensive. China moved in to fill that cheap products status however for quite a number of years now China has been facing what happened to Japan and they are nervelessly looking at Vietnam and Philippines to step in to there market, I don't believe that will be long in the grand scheme of things.

The man in the street will always look for what he wants at the lowest price, Britain can not compete in that market but they can compete against comparable markets hence why Germany & France are driving the 27 EU to make things difficult during this negotiation period, fine line when dealing with a competitor and can go either way. However it is bad news for the EU to have lost the British support and budget contribution, now it is down to how much trade do they lose. Yes Yes, I know that is the downside for the EU and there is potential downside for the UK but there is a potential upside which I can not see for the EU in reality unless they can somehow wrestle the massive financial services side of London away, but that is a big ask.

You can add Thailand to the new low cost economies.

Toyota have a factory their.
I went there 24 months ago. The pay rate was 2-3 dollars per hour.
Companies including UK companies have invested a lot of money there.

Most employees were driving those 4 by 4 utility trucks, but when I asked about they were all on finance. They lived in wooden cabins similar to what I keep my chickens in. The car is a massive status symbol but they live in a shed, hence the 2 dollars an hour.

[AndrewJB]

fail to see how the UK Financial services industry has made Africa poor.

other forces maybe

Look up African debt. Not just our financial services sector, but we've played our part.

[houseboy]

Ok mate, go back to my OP and find me the some facts which disprove mine.

No sorry. It's not that important to me bud. This is what I mean about many people ferreting through Google all the time and taking it all too damn seriously. I don't do Google 'proofs' and I don't normally click on 'links'. If people don't believe what I say then that's fine but what I do find is that people tend to trawl through Google until they find what they want and take it as some kind of gospel but if they look without prejudice they may find things that are totally different.

I'm not having a go either mate, it's just that people on here are having a chat, often a bit of a laugh, but then it all gets serious and people start asking for proofs and justification and I can't be bothered with all that rubbish. Some things I know for certain, other things I'm pretty sure of, other times I'm guessing in a calculated way, sometimes I'm doing nothing more than having a laugh with no thought or care for the 'truth'. But as someone who has worked with Google in the past (and still do to an extent) I can say with certainty that most 'facts' on the internet have counter-facts and it's up to people to do enough digging if they want to know more.

I hope you understand me better and I certainly hope you have not found me in any way insulting or abusive, that is never my intention and I apologise unreservedly if I seem to have come accross that way.

[houseboy]

"political/economic bullying/protectionism of the highest order."

So, a bit like Donald Trump and the USA then.

Probably. But they are self determining - a single nation, not a group of nations being dictated to by an outside agency. If the US wants to be a pain in the arse then so be it (they are most of the time anyway) but if a company in Italy wants to continue working with a company here they have to adhere to the EU not the Italian goverment, and that is what I have always had a difficulty with.

Forgive me because I don't know your age so I'm not trying to teach you how to suck eggs but the Common Market (which we joined) was a small group of nations gathered together in a trading organisation, nothing more, but it has grown into something far greater and ultimately it wants to be some kind of European government, which to the best of my knowledge was never the intention...or was it?

[CrosspoolClarets]

No sorry. It's not that important to me bud. This is what I mean about many people ferreting through Google all the time and taking it all too damn seriously. I don't do Google 'proofs' and I don't normally click on 'links'. If people don't believe what I say then that's fine but what I do find is that people tend to trawl through Google until they find what they want and take it as some kind of gospel but if they look without prejudice they may find things that are totally different.

I'm not having a go either mate, it's just that people on here are having a chat, often a bit of a laugh, but then it all gets serious and people start asking for proofs and justification and I can't be bothered with all that rubbish. Some things I know for certain, other things I'm pretty sure of, other times I'm guessing in a calculated way, sometimes I'm doing nothing more than having a laugh with no thought or care for the 'truth'. But as someone who has worked with Google in the past (and still do to an extent) I can say with certainty that most 'facts' on the internet have counter-facts and it's up to people to do enough digging if they want to know more.

I hope you understand me better and I certainly hope you have not found me in any way insulting or abusive, that is never my intention and I apologise unreservedly if I seem to have come accross that way.

Couldn't agree more with this.

These threads are a bit of fun away from the day job, debating things of interest, often during a tea break, and I suppose getting a bit of practice at persuasion for those of us who have to do it with work, often only on email these days. Being instructed to find proof for every statement made does get tiresome, though the reader should of course feel free to try to disprove a statement themselves if that tickles their fancy. Personally though, life's too short.

I was going to post a comment on British goods but I thought this post was more interesting.

[houseboy]

Couldn't agree more with this.

These threads are a bit of fun away from the day job, debating things of interest, often during a tea break, and I suppose getting a bit of practice at persuasion for those of us who have to do it with work, often only on email these days. Being instructed to find proof for every statement made does get tiresome, though the reader should of course feel free to try to disprove a statement themselves if that tickles their fancy. Personally though, life's too short.

I was going to post a comment on British goods but I thought this post was more interesting.

Cheers bud. My problem is that I make a living from the art of persuasion and even argument sometimes and I come on here from time to time during the day to get away from all that stressfull sh!te, so I don't want or need people demanding I prove everything I say. I'm not overly fussed if people don't believe me (although I'd much prefer they did obviously) so I try not to get caught up in all that 'source' thing. Similarly when people post links I usually ignore them (I actually find it a bit lazy that people can't be bothered to put things in their own words) although I will sometimes look at a link on a news item or something humorous (I'm looking at you Bosscat ).

It's just a footy forum, it ain't the inner circle of the Illuminati.

[AndrewJB]

Can you factually predict I’m wrong? You’ll be the only 1 who can & you will also be contradicting Andrew & the circumstances & ill effects.

What I said is you can’t claim Brexit has had no downside while we’re still in the single market, etc. What I also said was that in creating trade barriers with our closest and richest trading partners we will see a reduction in trade. Britain will not become self sufficient (we didn’t during the war), and we would need to pick and choose which home industries we support, and it will take government participation in the market to achieve it.

[LordBob]

It would be marvellous if we could manufacture, we do design, and sell goods at the right price but it's so much about the right price. Can a British company manufacture a 8,000 lumen Cree IP65 bike light with Lithium battery and charger and sell it to me for £25 I would have bought one if there had have been one but I had to get it from the Far East, we are consumers with limited budgets.

[KateR]

You can add Thailand to the new low cost economies.

Toyota have a factory their.
I went there 24 months ago. The pay rate was 2-3 dollars per hour.
Companies including UK companies have invested a lot of money there.

Most employees were driving those 4 by 4 utility trucks, but when I asked about they were all on finance. They lived in wooden cabins similar to what I keep my chickens in. The car is a massive status symbol but they live in a shed, hence the 2 dollars an hour.

It is part of the circle of life (business), for the most part it has been Asia (excluding Agriculture & Farming) for cheap goods, eventually it will shift and potentially to an African nation, agree with Thailand and others but the point is China is outgrowing it's past model and someone else will fill the void, buy not the UK or the EU, USA.

It's just a footy forum, it ain't the inner circle of the Illuminati. Wish someone had told me earlier

Love that houseboy and CrossPoolClaret are playing nicely together, should be much more of it

[Jakubclaret]

What I said is you can’t claim Brexit has had no downside while we’re still in the single market, etc. What I also said was that in creating trade barriers with our closest and richest trading partners we will see a reduction in trade. Britain will not become self sufficient (we didn’t during the war), and we would need to pick and choose which home industries we support, and it will take government participation in the market to achieve it.

It'll just take time & adjustment that's all, adopting a different approach will surely benefit everybody concerned, exciting challenges await for certain businesses who are willing to be more creative & expand, small steps initially until things settle & then confidence will naturally take over. The future is bright for people who can look ahead without fear or doubt.

[Jakubclaret]

It would be marvellous if we could manufacture, we do design, and sell goods at the right price but it's so much about the right price. Can a British company manufacture a 8,000 lumen Cree IP65 bike light with Lithium battery and charger and sell it to me for £25 I would have bought one if there had have been one but I had to get it from the Far East, we are consumers with limited budgets.

Done that & disappointed, old Chinese proverb buy cheap buy twice as a understatement you could be talking double numbers, will be exceptions rogue competent items rolling off the conveyor belt in the mass produced model. I'd rather spend more & something's right, you get what you pay for to make a confident purchase, with the availability all far Eastern (mostly) sourced granted it's difficult the example you've provided to be acquired by range selection.

[Taffy on the wing]

Wouldn't there be more (and better) careers/jobs for our children/grandchildren ?

So why don't we do it ?

Because everyone is addicted to cheap, Chinese products! Which are produced for pennies instead of Pounds.
"That ship has sailed"

[Lowbankclaret]

Let me give you all a real example of how this is all playing out.

A forging I am involved with is manufactured in 4 stages (try not to bore you with detail). In previous years and now in China you would set up your press for each operation, each setup would be 2-4 hours, heating up the blanks 20 minutes and manually doing the operation would be approx 20 minutes per part. A batch of 200 forging would take about 3-4 days.

The new robot set up takes about 6 hours to set up. All four forging stages are in the press at the same time. One robot takes the third stage forging into the fourth stage clipping op. One takes it from stage 2 to 3 . One from stage 1 to 2 , one from the furnace to stage one.

Once loaded up it makes a forging every 15 seconds, now batch size is key. 200 would not be economic, you need to run at least 1,000.

But this is real life manufacturing, get rid of the person .

Person content is set up of the press

[LordBob]

Done that & disappointed, old Chinese proverb buy cheap buy twice as a understatement you could be talking double numbers, will be exceptions rogue competent items rolling off the conveyor belt in the mass produced model. I'd rather spend more & something's right, you get what you pay for to make a confident purchase, with the availability all far Eastern (mostly) sourced granted it's difficult the example you've provided to be acquired by range selection.

I've been lucky Jakubclaret I got 2 for me and her mine been charged nearly 100 times and had it in the Oxford canal but I know what you mean by rogue production the chinese don't care to much about patents. The Cree invention I understand come s from Colorado Electrical Engineering Research facility but it's cheaper to manufacture in the Far East there production method is illegally copied and we get cheap products, what do we do ??

[Jakubclaret]

I've been lucky Jakubclaret I got 2 for me and her mine been charged nearly 100 times and had it in the Oxford canal but I know what you mean by rogue production the chinese don't care to much about patents. The Cree invention I understand come s from Colorado Electrical Engineering Research facility but it's cheaper to manufacture in the Far East there production method is illegally copied and we get cheap products, what do we do ??

Nothing in terms of domestic manufacturing, sometimes you can buy in the UK licensed still comes from China, you pay the additional extra but you have warranty as opposed to buying direct & cheaper.