Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Well, not quite every day but have just read something I'd never heard of before.
In a match in France tonight (live, just happened) between Metz and Lyon, Lyon were awarded a penalty.
Keeper saved it but referee ordered it to be retaken as the keeper was (apparently) well off his line when the bloke took the kick.
OK, all standard fare so far. BUT a different Lyon player took the penalty the second time. I didn't realise this was allowed. I can't ever recall seeing or hearing (about) this happening before.
New one on me.
In a match in France tonight (live, just happened) between Metz and Lyon, Lyon were awarded a penalty.
Keeper saved it but referee ordered it to be retaken as the keeper was (apparently) well off his line when the bloke took the kick.
OK, all standard fare so far. BUT a different Lyon player took the penalty the second time. I didn't realise this was allowed. I can't ever recall seeing or hearing (about) this happening before.
New one on me.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
It’s a dead ball. Anyone can take it. If it’s a shootout then that’s a different matter.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
I really didn't know this rule. It's not that often referees order a penalty to be taken again even though most keepers seem to move forwards before the kick is taken. But never seen the taker "replaced". I can see the logic. I presume the manager has this as a policy although you do see players argue over who's taking the first one. Not that it's an issue for us.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
They have to make the referee aware that there is going to be a different taker, that being said.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
One of the draconian rules I’d change. Keeper should be able to come off his line as long as he’s not less than ten yards away when the ball is kicked. I’d also give a goal kick if the pen is saved. It seems unfair for the keeper to save it but get done on the rebound.
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Aye but a penalty is generally given as punishment for preventing a goal. If it was a free kick bouncing off the wall you get another crack, so why not a penalty?Ric_C wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:32 pmOne of the draconian rules I’d change. Keeper should be able to come off his line as long as he’s not less than ten yards away when the ball is kicked. I’d also give a goal kick if the pen is saved. It seems unfair for the keeper to save it but get done on the rebound.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Monitoring 10 yards from a moving ball scenario would be much more difficult than 12 yards from a stationary one.Ric_C wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:32 pmOne of the draconian rules I’d change. Keeper should be able to come off his line as long as he’s not less than ten yards away when the ball is kicked. I’d also give a goal kick if the pen is saved. It seems unfair for the keeper to save it but get done on the rebound.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
You could say the keeper must be on his line when the ref blows for the kick to be taken, but then can move anywhere as long as he stays inside the 6 yard box.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
I wasn't aware until recently that the ball doesn't have to be inside the 1 meter quadrant for a corner kick. I'd often wondered how players got away with this. Apparently as long as at least one micron of the ball is within the outside of the white line then the kick is legal. Surely the game now needs VAR to monitor this!!
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Any part of the ball touching the line is perfectly acceptable.eastanglianclaret wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:37 amI wasn't aware until recently that the ball doesn't have to be inside the 1 meter quadrant for a corner kick. I'd often wondered how players got away with this. Apparently as long as at least one micron of the ball is within the outside of the white line then the kick is legal. Surely the game now needs VAR to monitor this!!
Similar to feet and throw ins - any part of foot on or behind the line is acceptable.
Think about penalties how often do you see the ball only just on the spot - same principle
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
I once got replaced as a penalty taker during a game.ecc wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:49 pmWell, not quite every day but have just read something I'd never heard of before.
In a match in France tonight (live, just happened) between Metz and Lyon, Lyon were awarded a penalty.
Keeper saved it but referee ordered it to be retaken as the keeper was (apparently) well off his line when the bloke took the kick.
OK, all standard fare so far. BUT a different Lyon player took the penalty the second time. I didn't realise this was allowed. I can't ever recall seeing or hearing (about) this happening before.
New one on me.
After watching John Francis give the eyes to a keeper feigning going right, but hitting it left. The next school game I managed to blag the normal penalty taker to let me have a go and that I knew the perfect penalty.
Except when I dinked it, the keeper was just stood there waiting for it. The ref spared my blushes for encroaching, but the regular penalty taker soon got the ball back in his hands.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Just to be picky, but the ball doesn’t have to be “touching” the line, but part of it has to be over it.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:19 amAny part of the ball touching the line is perfectly acceptable.
Similar to feet and throw ins - any part of foot on or behind the line is acceptable.
Think about penalties how often do you see the ball only just on the spot - same principle
Its same with goal line tech. The whole of the ball has to cross the line so the “base” of the ball may be over, but the “edge” can overhang the line and not be a goal
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Always amazes me when we get a corner at the BL/CF end and the number of the away fans who go mad at Westwood when he does this.
On the odd occasion when the ref comes to double check and leaves it as it is the sheer look of disbelief is a sight to behold.
On the odd occasion when the ref comes to double check and leaves it as it is the sheer look of disbelief is a sight to behold.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Sorry wills that's not correct.wilks_bfc wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:11 amJust to be picky, but the ball doesn’t have to be “touching” the line, but part of it has to be over it.
Its same with goal line tech. The whole of the ball has to cross the line so the “base” of the ball may be over, but the “edge” can overhang the line and not be a goal
On a corner then the ball has to be inside the quadrant. Inside includes any part of the ball touching the line.
With goal line the whole of the ball has to be over the whole of the line. If it is slightly touching then no goal.
If none of the ball is inside / touching quadrant then it is deemed play has been incorrectly restarted.
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Sorry dp but you are incorrect.
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
The Tinman never cared much for the corner rules.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
If the ball has to be inside the quadrant then I dont think I’ve ever seen a corner taken correctly thendpinsussex wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:55 amSorry wills that's not correct.
On a corner then the ball has to be inside the quadrant. Inside includes any part of the ball touching the line.
With goal line the whole of the ball has to be over the whole of the line. If it is slightly touching then no goal.
If none of the ball is inside / touching quadrant then it is deemed play has been incorrectly restarted.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
None of the ball has to be touching the line, it just needs to overhang. That’s the rule.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:01 pmBased on what? How well do you know the laws of the game? Ever taken an exam in the LOTG ?
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
The original answer was the ball has to be inside the quadrant. However inside includes any part of the ball touching any part of the line.Granny WeatherWax wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:05 pmNone of the ball has to be touching the line. That’s the rule.
What is wrong with that.
That is the laws of the game
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
We are agreeing.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:07 pmThe original answer was the ball has to be inside the quadrant. However inside includes any part of the ball touching any part of the line.
What is wrong with that.
That is the laws of the game
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
That is what I said this morning lol
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
The ball doesn’t need to touch the line though only overhang the line
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
I suspect that you mean the same thing, but one of you is talking in 3 dimensions and the other in 2 dimensions.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Not sure if I was talking 2 or 3d. What iwas saying is what the laws of the game state.
Use the simple principle I gave and there is no question of doubt
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
The ball can be overhanging the line without touching it.
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
That's not a conclusive argument. I have never taken an exam in the LOTG but I think I know them pretty well, and this particular law was either changed or re-emphasised to represent what paulatky says, a few years back.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:01 pmBased on what? How well do you know the laws of the game? Ever taken an exam in the LOTG ?
Which begs the question, when were you last specifically examined on this particular law and gave your answer and were marked correct?
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Did you know that you can't score an own goal from a corner?
If you were to shoot at your own goal from a corner kick, and (impressively, but equally bizarrely) get the ball past your keeper, and over the line... the opposing team would be awarded a corner kick, not a goal.
If you were to shoot at your own goal from a corner kick, and (impressively, but equally bizarrely) get the ball past your keeper, and over the line... the opposing team would be awarded a corner kick, not a goal.
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
(PS - it's these kind of wack-ass pedantic arguments that make this website so fun to visit.)
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Before the start of this season was my last laws examdsr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:00 amThat's not a conclusive argument. I have never taken an exam in the LOTG but I think I know them pretty well, and this particular law was either changed or re-emphasised to represent what paulatky says, a few years back.
Which begs the question, when were you last specifically examined on this particular law and gave your answer and were marked correct?
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Yes I,did and even more bizarrely if you score directly from an indirect free kick into your own goal a corner is the restart.Leon_C wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:22 amDid you know that you can't score an own goal from a corner?
If you were to shoot at your own goal from a corner kick, and (impressively, but equally bizarrely) get the ball past your keeper, and over the line... the opposing team would be awarded a corner kick, not a goal.
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
dp have you finally come round to admitting you are wrong in that the ball has to be touching the line to be a valid corner.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Strange one indeed. The penalty though is simply a direct free kick taken from the 12 spot....the only difference is that the referee must be informed who is taking a penalty. So here they would have told him of the change and the ref would let the keeper know.ecc wrote: ↑Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:49 pmWell, not quite every day but have just read something I'd never heard of before.
In a match in France tonight (live, just happened) between Metz and Lyon, Lyon were awarded a penalty.
Keeper saved it but referee ordered it to be retaken as the keeper was (apparently) well off his line when the bloke took the kick.
OK, all standard fare so far. BUT a different Lyon player took the penalty the second time. I didn't realise this was allowed. I can't ever recall seeing or hearing (about) this happening before.
New one on me.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Even more bizarrely..... When it did happen in a football league game (a defender kicking the ball directly into his own goal from a free kick) the referee awarded a goal by mistake.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:20 pmYes I,did and even more bizarrely if you score directly from an indirect free kick into your own goal a corner is the restart.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
What's your definition of "touching"? If it means "in physical contact with" (i.e. the normal definition we all use) then I'd suggest you're the only one refereeing to this definition. We all regularly see corner kicks where the definition given here is used:
http://www.kenaston.org/the-pitch/law-17.htm
"As long as part of the ball touches or overhangs the line of the quarter circle, the corner kick is legal" (I'm not making any claims for that site - just that's the standard we see applied)
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
I understood what dpinsussex was saying and I understand why others are arguing the point, however, it really is nit picking and something which has crept into the modern game in the past 10 years, along with lots of other changes which have done absolutely nothing to enhance the enjoyment of a game and which, in fact, have made the job of the officials more difficult.thatdberight wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:38 pmWhat's your definition of "touching"? If it means "in physical contact with" (i.e. the normal definition we all use) then I'd suggest you're the only one refereeing to this definition. We all regularly see corner kicks where the definition given here is used:
http://www.kenaston.org/the-pitch/law-17.htm
"As long as part of the ball touches or overhangs the line of the quarter circle, the corner kick is legal" (I'm not making any claims for that site - just that's the standard we see applied)
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
The issue seems to be that "in" is not defined in the laws. So, it's become accepted that the corner quadrant will be governed the same way as the by-line etc. "All of the ball, all of the line". You'd think the IFAB would see this new way of taking corners taking root and clarify. Then there's be no possible confusion or personal interpretation.Ashingtonclaret46 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:54 pmI understood what dpinsussex was saying and I understand why others are arguing the point, however, it really is nit picking and something which has crept into the modern game in the past 10 years, along with lots of other changes which have done absolutely nothing to enhance the enjoyment of a game and which, in fact, have made the job of the officials more difficult.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
"In" is technically described in the LOTG. The whole of the ball must be outside/ over the line to be out of play or a goal. The same therefore applies to the corner kick. All the time a part of the ball is touching the line then we are good to go.thatdberight wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:24 pmThe issue seems to be that "in" is not defined in the laws. So, it's become accepted that the corner quadrant will be governed the same way as the by-line etc. "All of the ball, all of the line". You'd think the IFAB would see this new way of taking corners taking root and clarify. Then there's be no possible confusion or personal interpretation.
Interesting when you look at the diagram on that website (which has no merit ) althiugh the same diagram is used in the LOTG it is clear that the ball needs to touch the line or be wholly inside.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
The diagram in the LOTG is silent on the issue being discussed. No such position of the ball is shown. I'd already looked at that. It says it's just some examples. You can't claim anything it's silent on backs up your position. Well, you can, but not credibly.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:26 pm"In" is technically described in the LOTG. The whole of the ball must be outside/ over the line to be out of play or a goal. The same therefore applies to the corner kick. All the time a part of the ball is touching the line then we are good to go.
Interesting when you look at the diagram on that website (which has no merit ) althiugh the same diagram is used in the LOTG it is clear that the ball needs to touch the line or be wholly inside.
You cite the example of the goal line and then, bizarrely, reach entirely the opposite conclusion to the example you cite. If a ball is in midair and not touching the line (the normal use of the word - physical contact) but is overhanging the goal line, it's not a goal. So you seem to agree, although you can't bring yourself to say it, that if a ball is overhanging the line of the quadrant it is not outside the quadrant. Since Schrödinger never took corners, it, therefore, must be inside.
I don't know why you're picking a fight with people asking a perfectly reasonable question. Especially when you're wrong.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
"liked" for clever use of Schrodinger. Though I almost unliked it again for non-use of umlaut!thatdberight wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:32 pmThe diagram in the LOTG is silent on the issue being discussed. No such position of the ball is shown. I'd already looked at that. It says it's just some examples. You can't claim anything it's silent on backs up your position. Well, you can, but not credibly.
You cite the example of the goal line and then, bizarrely, reach entirely the opposite conclusion to the example you cite. If a ball is in midair and not touching the line (the normal use of the word - physical contact) but is overhanging the goal line, it's not a goal. So you seem to agree, although you can't bring yourself to say it, that if a ball is overhanging the line of the quadrant it is not outside the quadrant. Since Schrödinger never took corners, it, therefore, must be inside.
I don't know why you're picking a fight with people asking a perfectly reasonable question. Especially when you're wrong.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
It must be a browser issue. Both your and my posts have the umlaut intact on my device.
That said, the fact that the umlaut is simultaneously present and not present is spookily pertinent....
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Either there are funny marks on my computer screen, or my eyes are going funny, or Schrödinger's cat has been doing a bit of crafty editing. Or my memory is going, or my eyes are going funny.thatdberight wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:48 pmIt must be a browser issue. Both your and my posts have the umlaut intact on my device.
That said, the fact that the umlaut is simultaneously present and not present is spookily pertinent....
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
Thanks for using a fantastic word in your response.thatdberight wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:32 pmThe diagram in the LOTG is silent on the issue being discussed. No such position of the ball is shown. I'd already looked at that. It says it's just some examples. You can't claim anything it's silent on backs up your position. Well, you can, but not credibly.
You cite the example of the goal line and then, bizarrely, reach entirely the opposite conclusion to the example you cite. If a ball is in midair and not touching the line (the normal use of the word - physical contact) but is overhanging the goal line, it's not a goal. So you seem to agree, although you can't bring yourself to say it, that if a ball is overhanging the line of the quadrant it is not outside the quadrant. Since Schrödinger never took corners, it, therefore, must be inside.
I don't know why you're picking a fight with people asking a perfectly reasonable question. Especially when you're wrong.
I am not picking a fight. Just quoting law. I referee semi professionally and have shown this thread to a number of fellow referees. They have all laughed at some of the posters on this thread and their lack of knowledge.
Every single one agrees with my stance on this as being correct.
The diagram does explain. The moment the ball does not sit inside the quadrant or touch the line then it is not an acceptable corner.
Sorry if you dont agree but spectators, players and managers generally do not know the LOTG inside out.
And yes we have to know the LOTG and do exams regularly to ensure we are up to date and knowledge is correct.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
OK. I'll have to continue to believe the evidence of my own eyes both live and on TV that you are clearly refereeing this element to a different standard than at the professional level but you're obviously doing what you're doing to your association's satisfaction.dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:10 pmThanks for using a fantastic word in your response.
I am not picking a fight. Just quoting law. I referee semi professionally and have shown this thread to a number of fellow referees. They have all laughed at some of the posters on this thread and their lack of knowledge.
Every single one agrees with my stance on this as being correct.
The diagram does explain. The moment the ball does not sit inside the quadrant or touch the line then it is not an acceptable corner.
Sorry if you dont agree but spectators, players and managers generally do not know the LOTG inside out.
And yes we have to know the LOTG and do exams regularly to ensure we are up to date and knowledge is correct.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
The association I referee to their satisfaction is the football association.thatdberight wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:22 pmOK. I'll have to continue to believe the evidence of my own eyes both live and on TV that you are clearly refereeing this element to a different standard than at the professional level but you're obviously doing what you're doing to your association's satisfaction.
I no longer fall under my county FA
Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
You might want to have a word with Graham Poll as well, and teach him how he was so badly wrong. See paragraphs 8 and 9:dpinsussex wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:10 pmThanks for using a fantastic word in your response.
I am not picking a fight. Just quoting law. I referee semi professionally and have shown this thread to a number of fellow referees. They have all laughed at some of the posters on this thread and their lack of knowledge.
Every single one agrees with my stance on this as being correct.
The diagram does explain. The moment the ball does not sit inside the quadrant or touch the line then it is not an acceptable corner.
Sorry if you dont agree but spectators, players and managers generally do not know the LOTG inside out.
And yes we have to know the LOTG and do exams regularly to ensure we are up to date and knowledge is correct.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... ndits.html
You might at least go so far as to accept there are qualified people who disagree?Graham Poll wrote:Take the position of the ball at the taking of a corner kick. I was listening to the grating voice of Alan Green on 5Live on Saturday when he stated as an absolute fact that Wigan had scored a goal unfairly from a corner as the ball had not be placed inside the quadrant – the same fact was highlighted on Match of the Day.
However, when they showed the placement of the ball it was perfectly legal as if any part of the ball goes over the line marking the quadrant then it is fine. While the part of the ball in contact with the ground was outside the quadrant, the part in the air was overhanging it – thus making it legal.
Last edited by dsr on Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Laws of the Game-I learn something every day
dpinsussex did not say anything about being right or wrong or being better than anyone else because he is a referee.dsr wrote: ↑Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:38 pmWe get it - you're a referee so you must be right. And a Premier League linesman who checks the ball, sees it not touching but overhanging the line, and allows play to go on - presumably he's only a linesman so he's wrong?
You might want to have a word with Graham Poll as well, and teach him how he was so badly wrong. See paragraphs 8 and 9:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footb ... ndits.html
You might at least go so far as to accept there are qualified people who disagree?
The plane of the ball is touching the line and that is all that matters ---you say overhanging, however, there is nothing in TLOG which says that. The interpretation is exactly as dp says and is the one used by ARs and referees at all levels.