Boris Watch

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TVC15
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:43 am

If the message was crystal clear why is there so much confusion ?
There are still lots of workers being told by their employers today to go to work who neither fall in the category of key workers or construction.
There are lots of construction firms who have closed down and lots still open.
There are lots of firms waiting for a decision from the government as to which category they fall in and whether they should close.
There are whole sectors currently waiting for a decision from the government on whether they fall into the category of remaining open - eg the building & maintenance sector who undertake all of the insurance work on residential properties - eg when your house has been flooded or anything where you make an insurance claim and it needs repair work on your home.

The above is all factual - why would we have this situation if the message was as clear as some people are suggesting ?

Devils_Advocate
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Devils_Advocate » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:49 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:33 am
Not everybody takes everything so literal, you are allowed to exercise common sense in a changing environment, remember the 2 points were in transition the employers were deciding on the workforces & whether or not to apply for the grants, it's nitpicking.
You're moving on to a different argument now. You said the messaging was as clear as can be. I think we have shown that it could have been clearer.

Whether you want to blame the level of confusion it has caused on the ordinary working people rather than the govt messaging is up to you and a much greyer area. Personally I'm not gonna blame the 1000s of everyday working people for not fully understanding what this means for them

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by CrosspoolClarets » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:49 am

The thing driving this is fear. For some, they are right to be fearful. For others, they are not.

The government is obviously worried that the cure will be more painful than the disease. That’s why they are trying to leave it up to the discretion of some workers and businesses.

The problem is the supply chain. I currently have something big on the go, and half the chain has pulled off the job and the other half can’t work without them. But if the government orders them into work they’ll be accused of killing people.

It is a no win situation. Hard to see how it only lasts 3 weeks too.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:50 am

Tall Paul wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:39 am
Not everyone exercises common sense, particularly some employers who will take advantage of any possible loopholes they can find to avoid having to pay their staff for sitting at home.
It's a united front on this 1, everyone's pulling together, it's the only way to restore normality, people are realising now's not the time the bigger picture is to control the virus & help the NHS, I've actually been impressed in some parts to how we've gone about it, falling short though with not responding sooner & some of the measures aren't draconian enough in my view. Anyway logging out have a good day & stay safe

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:52 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:16 am
Do you think that telling the rest of the world that Sterling is now worthless, even temporarily, won't have any long-term effect?

You're dreaming if you think people won't be able to "game" the system by using their own money. The people, mostly the richer ones already, who have significant funds in Dollars, Euros, or any other currency worth more than Sterling (ie. everything but the bolivar) will be kings of the market.
If the government goes ahead with the economy as usual there will be a massive recession afterwards. While not perfect, my suggestions would mitigate a lot of the negative factors.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:58 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:29 am
Therein lies the problem with this thread, and the muppets who infest it.
If it turns out that fewer people die than the scare mongers predict, it won't be because of the governments decisions but because Boris got away with it.

If only you could see yourselves as others do
:roll:
So , using your twisted , desperate, desperate political point scoring logic.

Hundreds of thousands die - Boris's fault.

Deaths kept to minimum - "Boris got away with it."


If only you could see yourselves as others do!

Any body got a full length mirror spare for one of the messageboard, Boris Bsshing, Keyboard Prime Ministers?

THEWELLERNUT70
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by THEWELLERNUT70 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:14 am

Still no advice or help imminent for the self employed who have been forced to shut up shop! And with Parliament being dissolved today, a week early, it does have a feel of a substantial number of people being thrown under a financial bus.

We rang our mortgage company up to try to sort out a payment break, but as yet and because of government handsitting they are yet to devise a concrete plan and are still awaiting advice

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:26 am

THEWELLERNUT70 wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:14 am
Still no advice or help imminent for the self employed who have been forced to shut up shop! And with Parliament being dissolved today, a week early, it does have a feel of a substantial number of people being thrown under a financial bus.

We rang our mortgage company up to try to sort out a payment break, but as yet and because of government handsitting they are yet to devise a concrete plan and are still awaiting advice
Martin Lewis said on TV this morning that he's had it confirmed by the government that they'll be issuing measures for the self employed by the end of the week.
These 2 users liked this post: THEWELLERNUT70 KateR

THEWELLERNUT70
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by THEWELLERNUT70 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:33 am

Tall Paul wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:26 am
Martin Lewis said on TV this morning that he's had it confirmed by the government that they'll be issuing measures for the self employed by the end of the week.
Fingers firmly crossed. Cheers for the update

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:40 am

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:43 am
The government did a U turn after Macron and Co threatened to close borders to us and our own Cabinet threatened a mutiny. This U turn suggests that mistakes were made. Those mistakes may, or may not, result in a helluva lot of extra, needless deaths.
The buck, as Johnsonkeeps saying, stops with him. Let's hope for all our sakes, and his, that the errors in judgement don't prove too costly ie he, and us, get away with it.

Hope that clears your mind and your short-sightedness, Colburn..
Did you pick all that up in the last COBRA meeting, or did you just put 2 and 2 together and make a lot of **** up.

The government did a U turn.......they said from day 1 that the herd community would eventually be jumped on to be replaced with self isolation, it was only a question of when.
Macron threatened to close borders with us......they've closed borders with everybody, as has most of Europe, which one of his cabinet ministers said he threatened to revolt, or is this another story from your postmans, next door neighbours, second cousins, paper boys dad.
This U turn suggests that mistakes were made..... it really doesn't, it suggests that the day that was forecast on day 1 has been reached.

The buck will stop with Boris, although he can only act on the advice he's given. You don't employ medical experts to tell them to sod off, you'll do what you like. His errors of judgement, should there prove to be any, will be in listening to those experts. If he hadn't listened to them who would rightly have been slaughtered.
If we get out of this relatively lightly, are you going to congratulate Boris, or just tell us he was lucky.

You needn't respond because I know the answer already.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Colburn_Claret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:41 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:58 am
So , using your twisted , desperate, desperate political point scoring logic.

Hundreds of thousands die - Boris's fault.

Deaths kept to minimum - "Boris got away with it."


If only you could see yourselves as others do!

Any body got a full length mirror spare for one of the messageboard, Boris Bsshing, Keyboard Prime Ministers?
If you'd read the post I was replying to, you would have understood that I was agreeing with you, you muppet :lol:

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Hapag Lloyd » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:48 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:58 am
So , using your twisted , desperate, desperate political point scoring logic.

Hundreds of thousands die - Boris's fault.

Deaths kept to minimum - "Boris got away with it."


If only you could see yourselves as others do!

Any body got a full length mirror spare for one of the messageboard, Boris Bsshing, Keyboard Prime Ministers?
You may want to read his post again.

edit. Colburn beat me to it

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:53 am

TVC15 wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:09 pm
Wow - that’s quite an ignorant statement to make. “Football crowds” - have you any idea what the police do on a daily basis to protect you and the rest of us ?

They are in a very difficult position because they cannot cope with the level of crime there is now without this - they have not been involved in any of the discussions as to how this will be implemented or how they will resource it.
At the same time many of their members are being asked to do this and everything else they need to do without PPE being provided to them.

Maybe they are a bit upset that the government are effectively telling their members to just go out and do these things and put their lives at risk ?
Hi TVC15, sorry if you misunderstood my post. Nothing "wow" about it, or "ignorant."

Police controlling "people on the streets" is part of their standard duties, isn't? I referenced "football crowds" because this is a football mb. I could have mentioned all the other things that police do "on the streets," whether it is dealing with an accident, sorting a "shop lifting" incident, a "public nuisance" disturbance, a demonstration, a music festival or, regrettably one of the several terrorist incidents. I'm sure some of these other events the police are already trained to handle will require the range of skills needed to assist in the "social distancing" etc for covid-19.

Discussion about resourcing and priorities will follow the covid-19 response decisions. I'm sure that this is the usual way these things happen.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:58 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:19 pm
I got a bite! Okay - I wasn’t “fishing”.

The free market cannot serve the country in a crisis like this. You have already accepted this if you’re pleased with the government paying 80% of salaries for people out of work as a result, and shops enforcing rationing. It will create an infinitely bigger problem in the economy if we let some people fall behind on rent or their mortgage or their credit card bill, or bank loans, and employment contracts where employees are no longer working. We also have to look after businesses that are shut down. They also have financial obligations that if we keep going, eventually won’t be met.

So why not put these things “on pause”? It’s only for the duration of the crisis - which could be a lot longer than the three months currently bandied about. If everyone’s financial obligations are put on pause, then the only thing we all have to worry about is immediate necessities. This the government could look after by creating a time limited currency paid out to everyone equally. Price controls and rationing would have to be instituted, because if you have a captive market you’ll get people trying to profiteer otherwise. If it’s in a different currency, nobody will be able to game the system by using their own money, and it then can’t cause inflation with Sterling. Of course there would be a black market, but the problems it would bring, compared to the issues the system could fix would be minimal. It’s a short term fix. Once the crisis is over we go back to normal.

Some questions for you: How do you propose Sunak raises the money to pay his 80% of salary - which won’t cover everyone? How would you cover people who fall into unsustainable levels of debt due to the crisis if it goes on for a long time? How would you deal without landlords who raise their rents during the crisis? How do we look after everyone if the crisis goes on well beyond the average person’s ability to pay their mortgage, rent, credit card bill, loan repayments, employee wages, etc?

Burnley FC - we have a staff and a wage bill - but an income based on contracts with companies which themselves will be hit by the crisis, and possibly suffer cash flow problems. The whole thing could come tumbling down if we expect things to carry on as usual. So put everything on pause, so no wages are paid, the club receives no income, and everyone self isolates so the crisis goes away faster. While this is happening everyone gets their personal payout from the government so they can get by, players, club officials, network tv people, audience, etc. When the crisis is over, we can start it up as before, and nobody has lost anything other than the time of the crisis, which has been common to all.
Hi Andrew, I hope this time you are "casting." But, you are only casting across the driest of very dry deserts. So, you think that our economy can't handle the current situation, so your idea is to set us back to "early history" before money emerged as a means of exchange?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:10 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:53 am
Hi TVC15, sorry if you misunderstood my post. Nothing "wow" about it, or "ignorant."

Police controlling "people on the streets" is part of their standard duties, isn't? I referenced "football crowds" because this is a football mb. I could have mentioned all the other things that police do "on the streets," whether it is dealing with an accident, sorting a "shop lifting" incident, a "public nuisance" disturbance, a demonstration, a music festival or, regrettably one of the several terrorist incidents. I'm sure some of these other events the police are already trained to handle will require the range of skills needed to assist in the "social distancing" etc for covid-19.

Discussion about resourcing and priorities will follow the covid-19 response decisions. I'm sure that this is the usual way these things happen.
Apologies from me too Paul if my wording was a bit harsh.
My point was really more about that it’s not really about whether the police are trained or not to control crowds -though on this point very few of them actually are as it’s such a small fraction of what they face on a day to day basis.
The points being made by the Federation was partly because of the lack of consultation with the police and clarity about what they actually can and can’t do (on the spot fines etc were not clear at all in the initial announcement). Then the other big area is how this will be resourced - they cannot cope with what they have to do now so how do they take on what is potentially a huge piece of new work.
Think about it logistically if they are being asked to patrol public places to break up gatherings or stop and deal with this every time they see one - issue a fine at some point etc. Is that more of a priority than going out to a domestic violence response or arresting someone for a drug or alcohol offence ? (by far the biggest things they get called out for every day). If the government think that it is a higher priority then they should tell the police that and temporarily stop responding to some crimes - but the government won’t do that because they know their would be a public outcry so they give the problem to the Police to decide - does that sound fair ?

It’s ok saying that the army are on the way but what do the police do today, tomorrow etc ?

Maybe sending the police the PPE they are still waiting for could be a start ? That way they might on some occasions think it’s ok to break up a gathering rather than think they are going to be deliberately spat on and coughed at like has been happening this week.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:18 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:40 am
Did you pick all that up in the last COBRA meeting, or did you just put 2 and 2 together and make a lot of **** up.

The government did a U turn.......they said from day 1 that the herd community would eventually be jumped on to be replaced with self isolation, it was only a question of when.
Macron threatened to close borders with us......they've closed borders with everybody, as has most of Europe, which one of his cabinet ministers said he threatened to revolt, or is this another story from your postmans, next door neighbours, second cousins, paper boys dad.
This U turn suggests that mistakes were made..... it really doesn't, it suggests that the day that was forecast on day 1 has been reached.

The buck will stop with Boris, although he can only act on the advice he's given. You don't employ medical experts to tell them to sod off, you'll do what you like. His errors of judgement, should there prove to be any, will be in listening to those experts. If he hadn't listened to them who would rightly have been slaughtered.
If we get out of this relatively lightly, are you going to congratulate Boris, or just tell us he was lucky.

You needn't respond because I know the answer already.
Herd immunity isn’t a way stop to full lockdown. It’s an alternative approach. The government chose this over full lockdown originally, and then switched more toward a full lockdown - without going as far as a full lockdown. There were still a lot of people on the tube this morning - and that’s because the governments definition of key worker is very wide. Why are construction workers considered key workers? Did medical experts make that call? :)

The switch from herd immunity to fuller lockdown represents a mistake was made in initially going for herd immunity. As you say the inquiry will bring that decision to light. In my opinion not going for a bigger lockdown will be seen as a mistake, and again the inquiry will bring that to light. All of it will be weighed against the death toll, and the ultimate responsibility sits with Johnson.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:27 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:41 am
If you'd read the post I was replying to, you would have understood that I was agreeing with you, you muppet :lol:
Hold me hand up!

Apologise 100% bud.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:27 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:58 am
Hi Andrew, I hope this time you are "casting." But, you are only casting across the driest of very dry deserts. So, you think that our economy can't handle the current situation, so your idea is to set us back to "early history" before money emerged as a means of exchange?
I’m entirely serious. If we attempt to keep our economy as normal as possible, we expose it to a massive hit. If this goes on until mid summer, hundreds of thousands of people and businesses will be behind with rent, mortgages, loan payments, wage payments, etc. Allowing this to happen - for the sake of economic orthodoxy - would be insane. What do you think should be done?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:29 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:18 am
Herd immunity isn’t a way stop to full lockdown. It’s an alternative approach. The government chose this over full lockdown originally, and then switched more toward a full lockdown - without going as far as a full lockdown. There were still a lot of people on the tube this morning - and that’s because the governments definition of key worker is very wide. Why are construction workers considered key workers? Did medical experts make that call? :)

The switch from herd immunity to fuller lockdown represents a mistake was made in initially going for herd immunity. As you say the inquiry will bring that decision to light. In my opinion not going for a bigger lockdown will be seen as a mistake, and again the inquiry will bring that to light. All of it will be weighed against the death toll, and the ultimate responsibility sits with Johnson.

Johnson is simply doing exactly, what Prime Minister, Corbyn/Starmer/Swinson would've had to do.

Which is, listening to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and his team. That advice would have been the same, regardless of who had the keys to Number 10.

The modelling is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. Its clear that there was no consensus amongst the government's advisers themselves.

The one and only reason the PM changed the government's approach. Is because his advice changed.

You'll , no doubt, be familiar with the words of John Maynard Keynes -

"When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?"

According to YouGov 93% agree.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:31 am

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:27 am
I’m entirely serious. If we attempt to keep our economy as normal as possible, we expose it to a massive hit. If this goes on until mid summer, hundreds of thousands of people and businesses will be behind with rent, mortgages, loan payments, wage payments, etc. Allowing this to happen - for the sake of economic orthodoxy - would be insane. What do you think should be done?
Andrew, why do you suppose what you're proposing has not been adopted by other countries faced with the same horrendous situation?

Oh, hang on, it has.

I believe North Korea is fabulous this time of year.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:32 am

TVC15 wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:10 am
Apologies from me too Paul if my wording was a bit harsh.
My point was really more about that it’s not really about whether the police are trained or not to control crowds -though on this point very few of them actually are as it’s such a small fraction of what they face on a day to day basis.
The points being made by the Federation was partly because of the lack of consultation with the police and clarity about what they actually can and can’t do (on the spot fines etc were not clear at all in the initial announcement). Then the other big area is how this will be resourced - they cannot cope with what they have to do now so how do they take on what is potentially a huge piece of new work.
Think about it logistically if they are being asked to patrol public places to break up gatherings or stop and deal with this every time they see one - issue a fine at some point etc. Is that more of a priority than going out to a domestic violence response or arresting someone for a drug or alcohol offence ? (by far the biggest things they get called out for every day). If the government think that it is a higher priority then they should tell the police that and temporarily stop responding to some crimes - but the government won’t do that because they know their would be a public outcry so they give the problem to the Police to decide - does that sound fair ?

It’s ok saying that the army are on the way but what do the police do today, tomorrow etc ?

Maybe sending the police the PPE they are still waiting for could be a start ? That way they might on some occasions think it’s ok to break up a gathering rather than think they are going to be deliberately spat on and coughed at like has been happening this week.
No worries, TVC.

Are we mixing Police Federation with the Police leadership? - "The Police Federation of England and Wales is the statutory staff association for police Constables, Sergeants, Inspectors and Chief Inspectors in the 43 territorial police forces in England and Wales." - Have we also heard that the Police leadership have not been involved in discussions with Home Office? I'm sure that's the usual way these things are supposed to work.

If the Federation feel that they aren't "in the loop" - i.e. haven't been consulted - and maybe not ready to take on these "extra activities" what is their usual route to deal with these things? My instincts are that putting the message they put out on twitter isn't the best way to express their concerns to their managers. Maybe that's just me. Maybe it's just created more concerns amongst people in general?

Yes, it's a horrible job to do when there are some will "spit and cough" rather than "do the right thing."

And, it can be difficult to decide the priorities, but isn't that an operational matter - and something the police have been doing for many years? (and, I don't just mean since 2010....).

Members of my family and friends have been police officers. They always have my full respect and support.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:36 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:29 am
Johnson is simply doing exactly, what Prime Minister, Corbyn/Starmer/Swinson would've had to do.

Which is, listening to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and his team. That advice would have been the same, regardless of who had the keys to Number 10.

The modelling is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. Its clear that there was no consensus amongst the government's advisers themselves.

The one and only reason the PM changed the government's approach. Is because his advice changed.

You'll , no doubt, be familiar with the words of John Maynard Keynes -

"When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?"

According to YouGov 93% agree.
The link you posted described a government paralysed with indecision. That’s not what real leadership looks like.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:40 am

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:31 am
Andrew, why do you suppose what you're proposing has not been adopted by other countries faced with the same horrendous situation?

Oh, hang on, it has.

I believe North Korea is fabulous this time of year.
Hundreds of thousands of people could find themselves behind with rent, mortgages, bills, wages, etc. What should the government do to address this?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:45 am

Colburn_Claret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:40 am
Did you pick all that up in the last COBRA meeting, or did you just put 2 and 2 together and make a lot of **** up.

The government did a U turn.......they said from day 1 that the herd community would eventually be jumped on to be replaced with self isolation, it was only a question of when.
Macron threatened to close borders with us......they've closed borders with everybody, as has most of Europe, which one of his cabinet ministers said he threatened to revolt, or is this another story from your postmans, next door neighbours, second cousins, paper boys dad.
This U turn suggests that mistakes were made..... it really doesn't, it suggests that the day that was forecast on day 1 has been reached.

The buck will stop with Boris, although he can only act on the advice he's given. You don't employ medical experts to tell them to sod off, you'll do what you like. His errors of judgement, should there prove to be any, will be in listening to those experts. If he hadn't listened to them who would rightly have been slaughtered.
If we get out of this relatively lightly, are you going to congratulate Boris, or just tell us he was lucky.

You needn't respond because I know the answer already.

Here's some of the **** I made up...

https://www.google.com/search?q=macron+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by evensteadiereddie » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:51 am

Oh and here's some more....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... cases-nhs/

If we get out of this with an acceptable number of needless lives lost, or none at all, I'll be delighted and say Johnson's got us through it despite the cock ups.
If we don't, I'd expect you similarly to admit your man is partly responsible but, to be honest, I couldn't give a **** what you do or think.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:02 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:40 am
Hundreds of thousands of people could find themselves behind with rent, mortgages, bills, wages, etc. What should the government do to address this?
What can you do? What would you do? This is nobody's fault but everybody's problem, the banks have been instructed to allow 3 month payment holidays or you could go interest only & 80% of the wages are being covered, additional help is there for people renting & the self employed ways are being looked at, as & when if this continues a more relaxed approach will be necessary, you can't repossess & evict too many people as the government/welfare will be faced with a bigger problem than the virus itself, you seem to have lots of questions yourself but not many answers.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:06 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:32 am
No worries, TVC.

Are we mixing Police Federation with the Police leadership? - "The Police Federation of England and Wales is the statutory staff association for police Constables, Sergeants, Inspectors and Chief Inspectors in the 43 territorial police forces in England and Wales." - Have we also heard that the Police leadership have not been involved in discussions with Home Office? I'm sure that's the usual way these things are supposed to work.

If the Federation feel that they aren't "in the loop" - i.e. haven't been consulted - and maybe not ready to take on these "extra activities" what is their usual route to deal with these things? My instincts are that putting the message they put out on twitter isn't the best way to express their concerns to their managers. Maybe that's just me. Maybe it's just created more concerns amongst people in general?

Yes, it's a horrible job to do when there are some will "spit and cough" rather than "do the right thing."

And, it can be difficult to decide the priorities, but isn't that an operational matter - and something the police have been doing for many years? (and, I don't just mean since 2010....).

Members of my family and friends have been police officers. They always have my full respect and support.
Nope I’m not mixing these up Paul. There is only one body represents the police nationwide and that’s the police federation. As you know the rest is made up of individual police forces.
The public should quite rightly be concerned - the police federation will not have taken this announcement lightly. They are not a militant union trying to scaremonger to gain political points.
They raised a genuine and very real point as to how they implement this. Of course they are used to prioritising work but that does not deal with the day to day reality of what officers face on a day to day basis and maybe rather than debate this with me ask one of your family who is in the police as to how they would deal with what the government want them to do with gatherings on top of their other response duties and what guidance they have had on how to prioritise things.
I know what my family who are in the police would say faced with this decision whilst out on response today.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:08 pm

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:02 pm
What can you do? What would you do? This is nobody's fault but everybody's problem, the banks have been instructed to allow 3 month payment holidays or you could go interest only & 80% of the wages are being covered, additional help is there for people renting & the self employed ways are being looked at, as & when if this continues a more relaxed approach will be necessary, you can't repossess & evict too many people as the government/welfare will be faced with a bigger problem than the virus itself, you seem to have lots of questions yourself but not many answers.
I set out my thoughts further up the thread.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:15 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:08 pm
I set out my thoughts further up the thread.
But that's passed, we are on a lockdown, the government have pressed on with this, mistake or no mistake, your concerns are well justified we'll all be worried financially & less secure about the future if this continues, I was looking for alternative solutions or makeweight fixes to a already ongoing plan.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:27 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:36 am
The link you posted described a government paralysed with indecision. That’s not what real leadership looks like.
93 % disagree with you Andrew

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:30 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:40 am
Hundreds of thousands of people could find themselves behind with rent, mortgages, bills, wages, etc. What should the government do to address this?

Have you been in isolation since the general election!?

No evictions

Mortgage holidays for 3 months minimum

Upto £2500 or 80% of salary!

STOP YOUR IDIOTIC VACUOUS , PATHETIC SNIPING

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by AndrewJB » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:30 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:27 pm
93 % disagree with you Andrew
You can’t even read opinion polls properly.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:35 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:30 pm
You can’t even read opinion polls properly.
No man is so blind than he who refuses to see
.

Public overwhelmingly backs the government’s new measures to tackle coronavirus

A snap YouGov survey, conducted overnight, finds that the public overwhelmingly support these new measures. Fully 93% of Britons back the move, including 76% who say they “strongly support” it.

While the vast majority of all social groups support the move, women are more likely to strongly support it than men (82% vs 70%), and older Brits are more likely to do so than younger Brits (85% of those aged 65 or more compared to 60% of 18-24 year olds).


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/arti ... new-measur

You're part of the 7% Andrew!

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by tiger76 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:51 pm

A few days ago i'd have stated the government was doing a reasonable job in the circumstances,but the PM'S statement on Monday allowed far too much ambiguity over who are keyworkers and who are not,this has led to a state of confusion as Phil Collins would say.

I''m fortunate that my employer was clear that any staff that could work from home should do so,and they implemented this policy a couple of weeks prior to the government restrictions coming into play.As it happens we've now closed altogether,and all staff will receive full pay during this 'lockdown'.

However there is many employees that aren't so fortunate,and I've been listening to countless callers on Radio 5 Live,who are either being asked to come to work by their bosses,or obviously they are self-employed/zero hour contracts,and have to go out to earn,this lockdown won't work unless the government is much clearer in which businesses can operate,and which should be closing down,if the decision is left to the employers then the government is passing the buck,and the self-employed need guarantees before they can down tools and stay at home and protect the NHS.

On a personal level my father is still having to attend his work,despite many of the workforce having severe reservations,the latest i know is the unions and management are holding talks today,and it's possible that this will be their final shift for a while.They are certainly not an essential industry at this time,and they have a workforce of hundreds,i'm sure they're not the only company that could close,but ultimately this has to be led from the top.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by TVC15 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:53 pm

It’s hard to understand why the poll is not 100% let alone 93% given the question asked.

I can’t recall any person on here saying they did not support the “governments new measures to tackle coronavirus”.....but feel free to correct me Wrongo during your post trawling, cut and pasting, unusual spacing, font size increasing, bolding daily duties.
And remember it has to be the new measures that people don’t support before you start making sh-it up again.

Clearly what would be different if you asked people whether they think we should have introduced lockdown earlier, or whether the construction sector are key workers, or whether it’s ok that most of the health service or emergency services have not got the correct or in many cases any PPE etc etc whether these would show this 7% minority or “loony lefties” you keep on tediously referring to.

Why don’t you give your right wing Nazi, facist, racist views a rest for a few days ? see how easy it is to introduce stereotypical labels.....
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by aggi » Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:24 pm

CrosspoolClarets wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:49 am
The thing driving this is fear. For some, they are right to be fearful. For others, they are not.

The government is obviously worried that the cure will be more painful than the disease. That’s why they are trying to leave it up to the discretion of some workers and businesses.

The problem is the supply chain. I currently have something big on the go, and half the chain has pulled off the job and the other half can’t work without them. But if the government orders them into work they’ll be accused of killing people.

It is a no win situation. Hard to see how it only lasts 3 weeks too.
That doesn't sound like strong leadership though. It sounds like they don't want to make a decision so are passing the buck to those who don't have the knowledge to make an informed decision (as an example relating to someone I know, how do you expect the boss of a tree surgery business to be informed enough to decide whether to shut down his work or not).

Also, realistically, these decisions aren't being passed to the employees, they're being passed to the business owners. If your boss says we're keeping the business open, if you don't come in you don't get paid, the employee doesn't have a huge amount of choice. Look at Mike Ashley for an example of what can happen here.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:05 pm

AndrewJB wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:08 pm
I set out my thoughts further up the thread.
Point being, it's all good & well asking difficult questions but it's also helpful if you are also prepared to answer the same questions yourself, the question you asked was turned back onto yourself without a forthcoming answer, but you expected somebody to answer a question you couldn't answer yourself, I could & I did.
Last edited by Jakubclaret on Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by TheFamilyCat » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:06 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:02 pm
Cheers

Spoke to my daughter on her way home from work actually. Typically, she told me to "give over worrying dad, I'll be fine" My instinct is to have her as far away from danger as is possible. However, she's an adult and as her dad, I have to accept that she's responsible for her own decisions. God knows what I'd do if anything was to happen to her. Of course , when she goes on the ward I want her to have appropriate protection.

Now, regards the PMs change of approach

Johnson is simply doing exactly, what Prime Minister, Corbyn/Starmer/Swinson would've had to do.

Which is, listening to the advice of the Chief Medical Officer and his team. That advice would have been the same, regardless of who had the keys to Number 10.

The modelling is based on a fast changing , and , very fluid situation. The variables will be changing by the hour. Its clear that there was no consensus amongst the government's advisers themselves.

The one and only reason the PM changed the government's approach. Is because his advice changed.

You'll , no doubt, be familiar with the words of John Maynard Keynes -

"When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do, sir?"


According to YouGov 93% agree.
That doesn't answer the question though. I have read those words many times, in the multiple posts you have used them on. You're almost like a politician yourself, ignoring the question and responding a pre-programmed statement.

Labelling anybody who questions (that's questions, not criticises) as the "loony left" is just a really poor attempt to shut down debate.

And why shouldn't the government be questioned? Decisions that have been made could result in the avoidable deaths of our nearest and dearest, or even ourselves. I think everyone has a right to do so. If you agree 100% with every action taken at each stage, then fair enough but I doubt that very many agree with you (please don't use the 97% to try to claim that it does as older pills clearly show that large percentages were not supportive at different stages).

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:11 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:51 am
Oh and here's some more....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-heal ... cases-nhs/

If we get out of this with an acceptable number of needless lives lost, or none at all, I'll be delighted and say Johnson's got us through it despite the cock ups.
If we don't, I'd expect you similarly to admit your man is partly responsible but, to be honest, I couldn't give a **** what you do or think.
Hi eddie, there are some "experts" writing that there will be more deaths as a result of the economic impact of tackling covid-19, than there will be people who die from covid-19. Where does that fit in your "needless deaths" analysis? Should we stop what we are doing and let things take their course, if it will result in few deaths?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:15 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:53 pm
It’s hard to understand why the poll is not 100% let alone 93% given the question asked.

I can’t recall any person on here saying they did not support the “governments new measures to tackle coronavirus”.....but feel free to correct me Wrongo during your post trawling, cut and pasting, unusual spacing, font size increasing, bolding daily duties.
And remember it has to be the new measures that people don’t support before you start making sh-it up again.

Clearly what would be different if you asked people whether they think we should have introduced lockdown earlier, or whether the construction sector are key workers, or whether it’s ok that most of the health service or emergency services have not got the correct or in many cases any PPE etc etc whether these would show this 7% minority or “loony lefties” you keep on tediously referring to.

Why don’t you give your right wing Nazi, facist, racist views a rest for a few days ? see how easy it is to introduce stereotypical labels.....

For the past fortnight The UTC messageboard merry band of sad, blinkered, sniping noisy lefties. Have attempted to criticise a government and make , futile political capital from an horrendous situation.

We're in the middle of a national, life threatening, crisis. And endless pathetic nitpicking that's gone on, from a rump of the usual mob has been embarrassing.

Every single person in this country is having to adjust on a daily basis to the dreadful situation. The government has the weight of the nation on its shoulders. None more so that the Prime Minister.

It may come as a surprise to you and your cohort of , know-it-all, keyboard Prime Ministers. There is no special lever that has a sign above it saying , "For perfection please pull here"

Your futile whining is utterly irrelevant. Despite how vital you think your "constructive criticism" on a football message board, is. Let me assure you, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.






In a world of soup, you lot have stock piled forks.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:20 pm

TheFamilyCat wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:06 pm
That doesn't answer the question though. I have read those words many times, in the multiple posts you have used them on. You're almost like a politician yourself, ignoring the question and responding a pre-programmed statement.

Labelling anybody who questions (that's questions, not criticises) as the "loony left" is just a really poor attempt to shut down debate.

And why shouldn't the government be questioned? Decisions that have been made could result in the avoidable deaths of our nearest and dearest, or even ourselves. I think everyone has a right to do so. If you agree 100% with every action taken at each stage, then fair enough but I doubt that very many agree with you (please don't use the 97% to try to claim that it does as older pills clearly show that large percentages were not supportive at different stages).
See above.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:26 pm

aggi wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:24 pm
how do you expect the boss of a tree surgery business to be informed enough to decide whether to shut down his work or not.
I'll have a go at this one, aggi. though I've never done tree surgery - except on trees in my own back garden.

So, where does the guy do tree surgery? Is it in public parks, national trust gardens and such, many of which are currently closed? Maybe a call with these customers could be the start of making a decision. Maybe it is safer to do the tree surgery when these areas are closed and no public in them. Of course, like any other work place there is the question about "social distancing?" Is it possible for one guy to be up the tree and one or others are on the ground (away from any falling branches) while the work is being done? Also, if necessary, is it possible for all the team to travel separately to the work site? Same decision tree (see what I did there?) could operate for private customers, though I'd expect with many residential situations the answer will be to postpone the tree surgery until covid-19 is all over - even if this is then not the best season to be trimming back trees etc.

How did I get on? What is you friend deciding to do?

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by martin_p » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:28 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:15 pm
For the past fortnight The UTC messageboard merry band of sad, blinkered, sniping noisy lefties. Have attempted to criticise a government and make , futile political capital from an horrendous situation.

We're in the middle of a national, life threatening, crisis. And endless pathetic nitpicking that's gone on, from a rump of the usual mob has been embarrassing.
Your lack of self awareness is astounding.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:36 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:26 pm
I'll have a go at this one, aggi. though I've never done tree surgery - except on trees in my own back garden.

So, where does the guy do tree surgery? Is it in public parks, national trust gardens and such, many of which are currently closed? Maybe a call with these customers could be the start of making a decision. Maybe it is safer to do the tree surgery when these areas are closed and no public in them. Of course, like any other work place there is the question about "social distancing?" Is it possible for one guy to be up the tree and one or others are on the ground (away from any falling branches) while the work is being done? Also, if necessary, is it possible for all the team to travel separately to the work site? Same decision tree (see what I did there?) could operate for private customers, though I'd expect with many residential situations the answer will be to postpone the tree surgery until covid-19 is all over - even if this is then not the best season to be trimming back trees etc.

How did I get on? What is you friend deciding to do?
Arboreal tree surgery with the harnesses is 1 job where social distancing wouldn’t a problem, unless the squirrels are carrying covid-19, daft example really. You are pretty much alone & stranded apart from the collector.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:41 pm

martin_p wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:28 pm
Your lack of self awareness is astounding.
Rearrange -

Messenger not try shoot to the.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by martin_p » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:45 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Rearrange -

Messenger not try shoot to the.
This was a decent thread until you introduced your own brand of political bile.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by ksrclaret » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:46 pm

RingoMcCartney wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Rearrange -

Messenger not try shoot to the.
Rearrange these letters:

r r r r r G r r r r r r

Now that should be an easy one for you ringo. No sentences or words which I know confuse you, just letters. Please let me know your answer.
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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:46 pm

martin_p wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:45 pm
This was a decent thread until you introduced your own brand of political bile.
See above.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by aggi » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:49 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:26 pm
I'll have a go at this one, aggi. though I've never done tree surgery - except on trees in my own back garden.

So, where does the guy do tree surgery? Is it in public parks, national trust gardens and such, many of which are currently closed? Maybe a call with these customers could be the start of making a decision. Maybe it is safer to do the tree surgery when these areas are closed and no public in them. Of course, like any other work place there is the question about "social distancing?" Is it possible for one guy to be up the tree and one or others are on the ground (away from any falling branches) while the work is being done? Also, if necessary, is it possible for all the team to travel separately to the work site? Same decision tree (see what I did there?) could operate for private customers, though I'd expect with many residential situations the answer will be to postpone the tree surgery until covid-19 is all over - even if this is then not the best season to be trimming back trees etc.

How did I get on? What is you friend deciding to do?
My friend is at home, unpaid at the moment. It seems social distancing isn't really possible, there's too much where you need to be in close proximity. However, the owner of the business wants to keep it open regardless and as the government hasn't given clear instructions that is what is happening.

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Re: Boris Watch

Post by RingoMcCartney » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:50 pm

ksrclaret wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:46 pm
Rearrange these letters:

r r r r r G r r r r r r

Now that should be an easy one for you ringo. No sentences or words which I know confuse you, just letters. Please let me know your answer.
The solitary nature of self isolation is clearly getting to you.

Go out and get some fresh air. Do you a power of good.

Hopefully

Locked