Covid-19

[Bangers&Mash]

I think the biggest clue to wether they died of Coronavirus or not..... is they can't fckin" breathe!
Daily Mail / Conservative apologist!........

About 15yrs ago I saw a lad get hit by a bus, I was at his side within seconds and he wasn't breathing. Has this virus been around longer than we think then?

[Lowbankclaret]

Sounds about right .

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -died.html

[bfcjg]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/japan-facing- ... 03721.html
If this was happening in the UK the people who are trying to put a political slant on it would be reveling in it. Remember this is a larger economy then ours.

[CombatClaret]

Sack the manager, sack the board.

league.jpg (247.82 KiB) Viewed 3796 times

[Paul Waine]

Sack the manager, sack the board.

league.jpg

A number of countries on that list aren't in the top division. Have you got one for G20? That's probably as good a proxy as any for "top division."

EDIT - add G20 list

G20 countries are: (Group 1) Australia, Canada, Saudi Arabia, USA; (2) India, Russia, South Africa, Turkey, (3) Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, (4) France, Germany, Italy, UK, (5) China, Indonesia, Japan, South Korea. Of course, that is only 19 countries, to 20th is EU.

[Paul Waine]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/japan-facing- ... 03721.html
If this was happening in the UK the people who are trying to put apolitical slant on it would be reveling in it. Remember this is a larger economy then ours.

I'm guessing that "apolitical" was intended to be "a political."

I've no idea how Japan organises their health care system. I think we all had Japan in the small group of countries that was "managing covid-19" successfully. Obviously not from what you've posted.

[Hapag Lloyd]

If Iceland had done as many tests as the UK then 100% of their population would have been tested.

[Devils_Advocate]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/japan-facing- ... 03721.html
If this was happening in the UK the people who are trying to put apolitical slant on it would be reveling in it. Remember this is a larger economy then ours.

It has happening in the UK. Although Japan (like S Korea) had early success and got on top of the initial outbreak of the virus unlike S Korea they have attached little value in testing and pretty much not bothered. They have now loosened lockdown and are getting hammered with the second wave

One of the big criticism of our govt is the lack of testing they have managed to deliver on so yes the people criticising our govt would also be criticising the Japanese govt around testing

Lessons to learn are that we need to keep doing everything we can to increase our testing capacity and any move to go back to normal will carry a big risk if it happens before we have the ability to test at national scale

[bfcjg]

Perhaps I should have made it more NHS orientated, our NHS although under the cosh is doing a remarkable job and I should imagine it may well become a role model for other countries free at the point of need, especially for USA citizens who must look enviously at us and this is an NHS coping despite at least 20 years of underfunding.

[Spijed]

It has happening in the UK. Although Japan (like S Korea) had early success and got on top of the initial outbreak of the virus unlike S Korea they have attached little value in testing and pretty much not bothered. They have now loosened lockdown and are getting hammered with the second wave

One of the big criticism of our govt is the lack of testing they have managed to deliver on so yes the people criticising our govt would also be criticising the Japanese govt around testing

Lessons to learn are that we need to keep doing everything we can to increase our testing capacity and any move to go back to normal will carry a big risk if it happens before we have the ability to test at national scale

At the moment, it does seem that our hospitals are coping with the number of beds and we have bit of spare capacity. I've not heard of any press reports of ambulances struggling to find beds for patients.

[Paul Waine]

Perhaps I should have made it more NHS orientated, our NHS although under the cosh is doing a remarkable job and I should imagine it may well become a role model for other countries free at the point of need, especially for USA citizens who must look enviously at us and this is an NHS coping despite at least 20 years of underfunding.

I'd look at the way the major countries in Europe organise their health care. Germany doesn't seem to have done to badly these past few months. I'm not aware of the debates in Germany about health care funding. I don't know whether people are having with their health care costs. We all know that they spend a lot more than we do.

[FactualFrank]

I'm pleased to announce that next week I'll be jumping a motorcycle over several rows of trolleys in the B&Q car park in support of care workers.

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1250986608842674177

WTF.

[Devils_Advocate]

At the moment, it does seem that our hospitals are coping with the number of beds and we have bit of spare capacity. I've not heard of any press reports of ambulances struggling to find beds for patients.

Think you quoted my post in error

[bfcjg]

I'd look at the way the major countries in Europe organise their health care. Germany doesn't seem to have done to badly these past few months. I'm not aware of the debates in Germany about health care funding. I don't know whether people are having with their health care costs. We all know that they spend a lot more than we do.

Not all countries will envy ours just some other countries such as the USA .

[RingoMcCartney]

Sack the manager, sack the board.

league.jpg

Here's a suggestion.

There is likely to be a 2nd, a 3rd maybe a 4th wave. This virus, according to medics, could be with us indefinitely.

Rather than lashing around like a hapless clown. Why not wait till this unprecedented global pandemic crisis is over.

Then, and only then will it be possible to make a fair, balanced and objective assessment of how each country (their government, the health services, their procurement processes, their logistical capabilities) has handled their own unique and individual national circumstances.

I'll guarantee you that a hell of a lot, that is going on right now, will, by then , have come out in the wash. Some of it favourable, some of it not so favourable for all concerned.

In a year or two, looking back to this moment in time, the eye of the storm. Seeing people attempting to make political capital, now. Will be seen exactly for what it is.

Not letting a good crisis go to waist.

.

[RingoMcCartney]

Sack the manager, sack the board.

league.jpg

By the way.

Wheres Taiwan on that league table?

Sack the League Chairman!

[Grumps]

Here's a suggestion.

There is likely to be a 2nd, a 3rd maybe a 4th wave. This virus, according to medics, could be with us indefinitely.

Rather than lashing around like a hapless clown. Why not wait till this unprecedented global pandemic crisis is over.

Then, and only then will it be possible to make a fair, balanced and objective assessment of how each country (their government, the health services, their procurement processes, their logistical capabilities) has handled their own unique and individual national circumstances.

I'll guarantee you that a hell of a lot, that is going on right now, will, by then , have come out in the wash. Some of it favourable, some of it not so favourable for all concerned.

In a year or two, looking back to this moment in time, the eye of the storm. Seeing people attempting to make political capital, now. Will be seen exactly for what it is.

Not letting a good crisis go to waist.

.

Exactly right, unfortunately a lot of people, both on here, and in the real world live by the knee jerk reaction

[Heathclaret]

Not letting a good crisis go to waist.


You putting on weight?

[ksrclaret]

Cmon Combat, it’s only fair game to criticise China and the WHO right now. Come to think of it, you could probably get away with criticism of any foreigner.

But be warned, any criticism of the Tory party is simply conjecture! You don’t have all the facts! How dare you!

[jrgbfc]

Here's a suggestion.

There is likely to be a 2nd, a 3rd maybe a 4th wave. This virus, according to medics, could be with us indefinitely.

Rather than lashing around like a hapless clown. Why not wait till this unprecedented global pandemic crisis is over.

Then, and only then will it be possible to make a fair, balanced and objective assessment of how each country (their government, the health services, their procurement processes, their logistical capabilities) has handled their own unique and individual national circumstances.

I'll guarantee you that a hell of a lot, that is going on right now, will, by then , have come out in the wash. Some of it favourable, some of it not so favourable for all concerned.

In a year or two, looking back to this moment in time, the eye of the storm. Seeing people attempting to make political capital, now. Will be seen exactly for what it is.

Not letting a good crisis go to waist.

.

Good idea let's have a big review 2 years down the line after thousands have died and it's too late to do anything about it. Plus by then another big news story will have come along so the Tories will be able to quietly sweep it under the carpet.

[thatdberight]

Good idea let's have a big review 2 years down the line after thousands have died and it's too late to do anything about it. Plus by then another big news story will have come along so the Tories will be able to quietly sweep it under the carpet.

Better idea. Put somebody like you in charge who hates 'the Tories' and will blame them for everything even before the picture is clear.

[Jakubclaret]

Better idea. Put somebody like you in charge who hates 'the Tories' and will blame them for everything even before the picture is clear.

Problem being the pictures already crystal & it doesn't look good, that where we are.

[thatdberight]

Problem being the pictures already crystal & it doesn't look good, that where we are.

If I'm ever on the lookout for some top class belmtardery, I'll come to you.

[ksrclaret]

I wonder if it might be possible to have something in the middle, and get to know, you know, the truth. If done relatively sharply It might even be a helpful process in the event of a second or third wave.

[Jakubclaret]

If I'm ever on the lookout for some top class belmtardery, I'll come to you.

Instead of countering on the offensive with no substance, they'd be more merit in articulating a reply explaining why the picture still remains unclear despite the criticism towards the timing & action.

[Grumps]

Can you imagine if we come out of lockdown, and stay out, whilst all these countries that have apparently done better than us, end up with 2 or 3 extra lockdowns. Who will have done better
It's impossible to say, that's why you can only have a full review in a few years time, when the Full picture is available.

[TVC15]

Ridiculous to say wait till it’s all finished before assessing how the government is doing.
The government has said themselves that they welcome scrutiny, criticism, challenge and they haven’t said but give it a couple of years and then do it.
If they take this on board and change course or approach and it saves lives not sure why anyone would think this is a bad thing or try and score political points.
The government has made mistakes - it’s a matter of opinion how many but I can’t see how any government in the world could avoid making mistakes with something as unprecedented as this.

[Grumps]

Ridiculous to say wait till it’s all finished before assessing how the government is doing.
The government has said themselves that they welcome scrutiny, criticism, challenge and they haven’t said but give it a couple of years and then do it.
If they take this on board and change course or approach and it saves lives not sure why anyone would think this is a bad thing or try and score political points.
The government has made mistakes - it’s a matter of opinion how many but I can’t see how any government in the world could avoid making mistakes with something as unprecedented as this.

Nobody is saying to stop assessing or even reviewing the government, but a FULL review, by definition cannot be done until the FULL facts and actions are known.

[TVC15]

Nobody is saying to stop assessing or even reviewing the government, but a FULL review, by definition cannot be done until the FULL facts and actions are known.

Is anyone calling for a “full” review ?
I agree that is by definition impossible right now.
But if you look through the pages on this thread any time somebody criticises or challenges specific individual decisions made by the government why do the same old posters come back incessantly with comments saying it is political point scoring, or posting opinion polls or saying you have to wait till the end of it before you can assess whether the government has made mistakes ?

[thatdberight]

Ridiculous to say wait till it’s all finished before assessing how the government is doing.
The government has said themselves that they welcome scrutiny, criticism, challenge and they haven’t said but give it a couple of years and then do it.
If they take this on board and change course or approach and it saves lives not sure why anyone would think this is a bad thing or try and score political points.
The government has made mistakes - it’s a matter of opinion how many but I can’t see how any government in the world could avoid making mistakes with something as unprecedented as this.

Nobody should be trying to shield the government from scrutiny. Decisions being taken now that can impact the immediate future should be scrutinized. But we shouldn't waste energy on a post mortem on this before we know the full story.

[ksrclaret]

Is anyone calling for a “full” review ?
I agree that is by definition impossible right now.
But if you look through the pages on this thread any time somebody criticises or challenges specific individual decisions made by the government why do the same old posters come back incessantly with comments saying it is political point scoring, or posting opinion polls or saying you have to wait till the end of it before you can assess whether the government has made mistakes ?

The same reason 'they' keep posting little snippets about how poorly China the WHO have made mistakes. But if anyone posts snippets suggesting the UK are making mistakes, it's jumped on immediately and the retort is we can't make any judgments until it's all over.

The simple answer is it's purely agenda-driven political point scoring. Add in a great big dose of hypocrisy and it's not hard to see why their credibility is at an all time low.

[RingoMcCartney]

Good idea let's have a big review 2 years down the line after thousands have died and it's too late to do anything about it. Plus by then another big news story will have come along so the Tories will be able to quietly sweep it under the carpet.

Tragically , thousands have and will die all over the world.

It wont be unique to the UK. If its shown our government has made mistakes in its handling, then its tied on that other governments will have.

As I said I'll guarantee you that a hell of a lot, that is going on right now, will, by then , have come out in the wash. Some of it favourable, some of it not so favourable for all concerned. That includes all governments in each and every country. As I've said they all have individual and unique circumstances.

The time to "face the music" will come for all governments. Till then all this premature judgemental opinion will , with the benefit of hindsight, just be seen for what it is.

Uninformed noise.

[thatdberight]

Is anyone calling for a “full” review ?
I agree that is by definition impossible right now.
But if you look through the pages on this thread any time somebody criticises or challenges specific individual decisions made by the government why do the same old posters come back incessantly with comments saying it is political point scoring, or posting opinion polls or saying you have to wait till the end of it before you can assess whether the government has made mistakes ?

There are a few posters doing that. But (and unsurprisingly given the average political view on here) there are more pointing the finger at the government (not the Civil Service, not PHE and definitely never the NHS) regardless of what happens.

[RingoMcCartney]

Nobody is saying to stop assessing or even reviewing the government, but a FULL review, by definition cannot be done until the FULL facts and actions are known.

Far far too much common sense in one succinct post there Grumps!

How very dare you!

[TVC15]

Nobody should be trying to shield the government from scrutiny. Decisions being taken now that can impact the immediate future should be scrutinized. But we shouldn't waste energy on a post mortem on this before we know the full story.

Agree with you.....but as I said above who exactly is calling for a post mortem or a full review now ?
If anybody is I agree it’s not appropriate now.

[TheFamilyCat]

Cmon Combat, it’s only fair game to criticise China and the WHO right now. Come to think of it, you could probably get away with criticism of any foreigner.

But be warned, any criticism of the Tory party is simply conjecture! You don’t have all the facts! How dare you!

And Public Health England. They were fair game for criticism for a while, but that seems to have blown over.

[ksrclaret]

Tragically , thousands have and will die all over the world.

It wont be unique to the UK. If its shown our government has made mistakes in its handling, then its tied on that other governments will have.

As I said I'll guarantee you that a hell of a lot, that is going on right now, will, by then , have come out in the wash. Some of it favourable, some of it not so favourable for all concerned. That includes all governments in each and every country. As I've said they all have individual and unique circumstances.

The time to "face the music" will come for all governments. Till then all this premature judgemental opinion will , with the benefit of hindsight, just be seen for what it is.

Uninformed noise.

Very simple question - why do you think it's okay to post things which suggest China and the WHO have made mistakes? Does this not contradict everything you've just said in this post?

I'm not defending China and the WHO here. Just interested to know why they are exempt from the above.

[TVC15]

There are a few posters doing that. But (and unsurprisingly given the average political view on here) there are more pointing the finger at the government (not the Civil Service, not PHE and definitely never the NHS) regardless of what happens.

Which posters have asked for a full review ?

As for pointing the finger at the government - tbf would you really expect people to criticise the faceless civil servants that work for them ? That’s like saying why do people praise the government rather than the civil servants ?

[Hapag Lloyd]

The same reason 'they' keep posting little snippets about how poorly China the WHO have made mistakes. But if anyone posts snippets suggesting the UK are making mistakes, it's jumped on immediately and the retort is we can't make any judgments until it's all over.

The simple answer is it's purely agenda-driven political point scoring. Add in a great big dose of hypocrisy and it's not hard to see why their credibility is at an all time low.

Physician, heal thyself.

[RingoMcCartney]

Very simple question - why do you think it's okay to post things which suggest China and the WHO have made mistakes? Does this not contradict everything you've just said in this post?

I'm not defending China and the WHO here. Just interested to know why they are exempt from the above.

Very simple answer. No.

Where WHO is concerned I have simply reported documented provable facts. Like this.

On 11 March a pandemic was declared by the WHO. By this time, 114 countries had reported cases.

There is no premature opinion in that post. Just facts. I simply posted stone cold facts. No opinion whatsoever.

But remember your reply to the above?! -

This is what you said yesterday.

Post by RingoMcCartney » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:23 am

We are slap bang in the middle of this crisis. When it's over and only when it's over, will it be the time to assess how well the country, the government, the opposition the NHS, Public Health England, the media and all stakeholders in this crisis have performed. Good , bad or indifferent. Attempting to make a judgement and forming an opinion right now, is far too premature. There could easily be 2nd, 3rd and 4th waves of this hideous evil virus to contend with

People should wait till it's over.

conjecture
/kənˈdʒɛktʃə/

Learn to pronounce
See definitions in:

noun
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

Dear, dear, dear. Credibility = zero.

Now this not only shows you're inability to differentiate between straight forward facts, from conjecture. It also proves that, despite your post actually including the definition of conjecture, I provided for you. Not only do you not read the content of my posts, but you clearly dont read the content of your own!!!!

[dsr]

Which posters have asked for a full review ?

As for pointing the finger at the government - tbf would you really expect people to criticise the faceless civil servants that work for them ? That’s like saying why do people praise the government rather than the civil servants ?

Essentially, the government has two responsibilities - one, to provide money for PHE and the NHS; two, to appoint the top people who are competent to do the jobs. If they fail in either, they fail badly.

We all know that NHS spending has been increasing vastly ever since the NHS started. It has increased under Labour governments, it has increased under Tory governments. A lot of people think it hasn't increased fast enough, but it has always increased. So while there may be blame to point to the government there, I don't think there is all that much.

but in appointing the right people to the job? There's a question. I'm sure none of us think that if the Cosy Nook Care Home in Blankshire has run out of facemasks, it is Matt Hancock's personal fault and he ought to deliver some tomorrow. But what he and his predecessors ought to have done is to ensure that the head of PHE and the head of NHS are competent to put the right organisation in place to see that the boss of Cosy Nook knows where to get face masks at short notice, and can deliver them. That's where the government is falling down - it appears, from what is going on, that the NHS management isn't doing a good job - which is ultimately the responsibility of the government.

One example in today's Daily Telegraph. Some vital element of the testing kit had been sourced from Taiwan and the production line was held up until it got here. Delivery was cancelled twice because the air haulage company hadn't got enough cargo to make the flight economic. So why did no-one ring the emergency procurement officer who would have made the decision to pay the full cargo cost, or to send an RAF plane, or to get the stuff here without delay? That's what the government is not doing. There is no emergency procurement officer. No-one is putting a rocket up the backsides of people who need it. The front line workers are working all hours and the officials in charge are not backing them up. As the Telegraph keeps pointing out, we need someone to do what Beaverbrook did in WW2.

[ksrclaret]

Very simple answer. No.

Where WHO is concerned I have simply reported documented provable facts. Like this.

Ignoring the rest of your waffle to avoid answering the question properly, I'd like to focus on this bit above.

Documenting the odd fact is going to lead to conjecture, is it not? Unless you've documented every single possible fact.

Secondly, why haven't you documented any facts about the UK making mistakes?

[CombatClaret]

Countries with females leaders seem to be handling this disproportionately better, early and decisive action with little need for d1ck waving and rah-rah public school 'take it on the chin' sentiment.

We wonder why a country with a physical chemistry expert is doing better than a opinion based newspaper columnist in charge

[ksrclaret]

Physician, heal thyself.

This isn't one for you, Hapag. Move along now, there's a good lad.

[thatdberight]

Which posters have asked for a full review ?

As for pointing the finger at the government - tbf would you really expect people to criticise the faceless civil servants that work for them ? That’s like saying why do people praise the government rather than the civil servants ?

If not a full review, I'm not sure what else people want. We have a government. This (regardless of who's in power) is not a time to change that. It is also not a time to try and see above the fog of this to give marks out of ten for the whole thing. It is a time when our elected opposition (who are mostly striking the right balance) and our press (who are in my view getting it right sometimes and badly wrong often) ask questions.

Putting every deliberation, possibility and thought in the public domain would not help. Most of the public are just about capable of following a simple instruction and picking up random crap they hear and misunderstanding it. This is not a time to be opening up everything just hoping that a coherent message comes out if it.

[thatdberight]

Countries with females leaders seem to be handling this disproportionately better, early and decisive action with little need for d1ck waving and rah-rah public school 'take it on the chin' sentiment.

We wonder why a country with a physical chemistry expert is doing better than a opinion based newspaper columnist in charge

So I presume you're going to shut up?

Talking of other countries and the lessons we must learn from them... when we end the NHS after this, what's your preferred new model? I mean, nobody else has this model and they (as you argue) are doing things better than us so, logically, it's time to bin the NHS.

[TVC15]

If not a full review, I'm not sure what else people want. We have a government. This (regardless of who's in power) is not a time to change that. It is also not a time to try and see above the fog of this to give marks out of ten for the whole thing. It is a time when our elected opposition (who are mostly striking the right balance) and our press (who are in my view getting it right sometimes and badly wrong often) ask questions.

Putting every deliberation, possibility and thought in the public domain would not help. Most of the public are just about capable of following a simple instruction and picking up random crap they hear and misunderstanding it. This is not a time to be opening up everything just hoping that a coherent message comes out if it.

I’m still missing something here - who are these people and what is it you think they want / calling for ?

I haven’t seen anyone asking for a full review - not even the left wing journalists.
I agree that some of the journalists ask stupid questions that they know can’t be answered right now but they are usually on specific areas such as lockdown or PPE...but journalists asking stupid questions is hardly a new phenomenon.

What tends to happen on this board on these kind of topics is that people ask a question and rather than get an answer people start to change the question and decide to answer that one instead. Then people point out that nobody asked that question in the first place or indeed disagrees with the answer that they have given to their own question that they have made up !

[TheFamilyCat]

This isn't one for you, Hapag. Move along now, there's a good lad.

Hmmm, third party chips in when Ringo is asked a tricky question that's got him floundering and uses one of Ringo's favourite catchphrases.

[Rileybobs]

There are a few posters doing that. But (and unsurprisingly given the average political view on here) there are more pointing the finger at the government (not the Civil Service, not PHE and definitely never the NHS) regardless of what happens.

What would you say is the average political view on here? Genuinely curious.

[Grumps]

Countries with females leaders seem to be handling this disproportionately better, early and decisive action with little need for d1ck waving and rah-rah public school 'take it on the chin' sentiment.

We wonder why a country with a physical chemistry expert is doing better than a opinion based newspaper columnist in charge

Luck of the draw with female leaders
I'd have every confidence in Mrs thatcher dealing with this crisis
Mrs May, not so much.