Labour Leadership Election

[dermotdermot]

‘Effective opposition! Are you for real, sunshine?

[Damo]

‘Effective opposition! Are you for real, sunshine?

Momentum, #fbpe etc

[claretonthecoast1882]

Effective opposition ? Wow

Guess if you think they were genuinely effective you will have to say congratulations to the tories

[AndrewJB]

‘Effective opposition! Are you for real, sunshine?

Forgive me for not subscribing to the Daily Mail version of reality. On which issues did Labour not oppose the government sufficiently over the last four years?

There are plenty of ex party leaders that give their opinions on various things, and I often find myself disagreeing with them - but they're still allowed their opinions, as odious as those sometimes are. Interesting that you disagree with Corbyn so vociferously that you'd wish him be silent. What is it you disagree with so much?

[tiger76]

I admire the way you look to facts to determine the truth, rather than inbuilt prejudice. However I think you're missing some facts if you think the opposition is only now properly opposing. If we put brexit to one side, Labour moved under the last leader from hardly opposing austerity, to calling it out for what it is. They moved from abstaining on key Windrush enabling legislation to absolutely opposing it. The change was huge - show me how the party didn't properly oppose the government, within the confines of being an opposition party. The manifestos were radically different from the previous years in terms of saying: "The path we have taken is wrong, and this is how we'll change it." There were lots of things wrong with the Labour Party under Corbyn, but it certainly did provide effective opposition.

As you'd expect Andrew i you think Labour provided effective opposition,we'll have to respectful disagree,Labour's biggest problem during the Corbyn years,was the fact it was split between the Blairite wing and the Corbynistas,and this dogged any attempts to present a united party to the public,and as anybody versed in politics knows split parties don't win elections,take Trident as one example,every man and his dog know Jeremy Corbyn has a long-standing disarmament policy,it's hardly a well-kept secret,and yet when it came to the parliamentary vote in 2017 on renewal,the vast majority of Labour MP'S voted with the government,it's fine winning leadership elections among the membership,but you have to carry your party with you,the most damning indictment of Corbyn's leadership is despite the Tories travails over brexit,he was never considered Prime Ministerial material.

The warning signs were evident even as early as 2016,if you don't believe me then here's Sir John Cutrice's view among others.

The psephologist John Curtice wrote just before Corbyn's second leadership win: "There is evidently a section of the British public, to be found particularly among younger voters, for whom the Labour leader does have an appeal; it just does not look like a section that is big enough, on its own at least, to enable Labour to win a general election". Meanwhile, a poll for The Independent by BMG Research, suggested that working class voters were more likely to consider Corbyn "incompetent" than those from the middle class, and a higher proportion thought he was "out of touch" also. Martin Kettle of The Guardian wrote that "many Labour MPs, even some who face defeat, want an early election" to prove decisively that Corbyn's Labour is unelectable as a government. "If there is hope for Labour it lies with the voters. Only they can change the party."

This criticism proved profoundly correct in 2019,Corbyn's relative success in 2017 just papered over the cracks,and was mainly due to Theresa May's shambolic campaign,rather than Labour winning the public over,and although Labour did gain support(their largest share since 2001) it proved soft and short-lived,as they relinquished most of those gains in 2019,and lost seats that had been Labour for generations,could those seats return?,they could but Keir Starmer will need his party to present a united front,something which Jeremy Corbyn was never able to achieve.

As a quick side note you referred to the Conservative enquiry into Islamophobia,they are having a review,but it's a broader review of complaints of any form of discrimination and prejudice.Is this good enough i have my suspicions it won't be,but until the outcome is known,i'll reserve judgement for now.

Labour face their own internal problems with the antisemitism controversy not going away.

It is scandalous that in the 21st century the 2 main UK parties have major issues with antisemitism and Islamophobia respectively,you'd have hoped politics would have evolved beyond such nonsense,but sadly not.

[mdd2]

Andrew
I think the last Tory Government had about as much opposition from its own MP's and the UUP than Labour could muster

[aggi]

Yep, the pack was out that night.

I'd forgotten about that post. Thanks for flagging it up to give me another laugh.

[RingoMcCartney]

I'd forgotten about that post. Thanks for flagging it up to give me another laugh.

Youre more than welcome aggi. It's only fair you should have a turn. I've been laughing at every general and EU parliamentary election, and EU referendum for years and expect to be doing it again at the next general election.

Make hay while the sunshines and fill yer boots pal!

[AndrewJB]

As you'd expect Andrew i you think Labour provided effective opposition,we'll have to respectful disagree,Labour's biggest problem during the Corbyn years,was the fact it was split between the Blairite wing and the Corbynistas,and this dogged any attempts to present a united party to the public,and as anybody versed in politics knows split parties don't win elections,take Trident as one example,every man and his dog know Jeremy Corbyn has a long-standing disarmament policy,it's hardly a well-kept secret,and yet when it came to the parliamentary vote in 2017 on renewal,the vast majority of Labour MP'S voted with the government,it's fine winning leadership elections among the membership,but you have to carry your party with you,the most damning indictment of Corbyn's leadership is despite the Tories travails over brexit,he was never considered Prime Ministerial material.

The warning signs were evident even as early as 2016,if you don't believe me then here's Sir John Cutrice's view among others.

The psephologist John Curtice wrote just before Corbyn's second leadership win: "There is evidently a section of the British public, to be found particularly among younger voters, for whom the Labour leader does have an appeal; it just does not look like a section that is big enough, on its own at least, to enable Labour to win a general election". Meanwhile, a poll for The Independent by BMG Research, suggested that working class voters were more likely to consider Corbyn "incompetent" than those from the middle class, and a higher proportion thought he was "out of touch" also. Martin Kettle of The Guardian wrote that "many Labour MPs, even some who face defeat, want an early election" to prove decisively that Corbyn's Labour is unelectable as a government. "If there is hope for Labour it lies with the voters. Only they can change the party."

This criticism proved profoundly correct in 2019,Corbyn's relative success in 2017 just papered over the cracks,and was mainly due to Theresa May's shambolic campaign,rather than Labour winning the public over,and although Labour did gain support(their largest share since 2001) it proved soft and short-lived,as they relinquished most of those gains in 2019,and lost seats that had been Labour for generations,could those seats return?,they could but Keir Starmer will need his party to present a united front,something which Jeremy Corbyn was never able to achieve.

As a quick side note you referred to the Conservative enquiry into Islamophobia,they are having a review,but it's a broader review of complaints of any form of discrimination and prejudice.Is this good enough i have my suspicions it won't be,but until the outcome is known,i'll reserve judgement for now.

Labour face their own internal problems with the antisemitism controversy not going away.

It is scandalous that in the 21st century the 2 main UK parties have major issues with antisemitism and Islamophobia respectively,you'd have hoped politics would have evolved beyond such nonsense,but sadly not.

The question is about opposition, and Corbyn took Labour from being a party that casually opposed the government - which is the only way I can describe Labour's policies between 2010 and the election in 2015 - to actually opposing the government. You only have to look at manifestos and voting records to see this. Before 2015 Labour abstained on a number of crucial bills - one of which set in motion the Windrush Scandal. That's not opposing. Once Corbyn took the helm, Labour established positions that put a lot of space between themselves and the Tories.

As an example, I didn't vote Labour in 2010, nor in 2015 because their positions were effectively Tory-lite. A bit less nastier on the immigration front, still wedded to neo-Liberal economics, would have imposed austerity on the country. There was nothing there for me to like. It was all very halfhearted - a price cap rather than full on nationalisation to stop energy companies ripping off consumers. Piddle.

In 2017 and 2019 voters were offered (and for the first time in many years) a real choice. That is real opposition.

Of course Corbyn was attacked so frequently, and unceasingly by most of the media, and enemies within and without his party that it's easy for a perception like that to take hold. Moving beyond perception, the facts as I've set out are clear. The narrative around Corbyn started off with negative preset assumptions. That working class voters thought him "incompetent" - speaks to the power of the press. Andrew Mitchell worked with him on a cross party extradition campaign, and had good words. Look up the various campaigns he's been on, and people he's worked with, and "incompetent" never comes into the frame. "Unelectable" - by rights Johnson should be unelectable. Chaotic family life, proven serial liar, strong track record of failure in office, etc - but his image has been carefully manicured.

As for anti-Semitism in the Labour Party - the leaked report showed that staffers in Labour HQ working to bring Corbyn down were responsible for (among many things) delaying investigations into anti-Semitism in order to discredit the leadership. I think Starmer will have to rid the party of these people, but I don't think we'll hear much about anti-Semitism from now on. It's purpose has been served:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... sm-scanda/

[tiger76]

The question is about opposition, and Corbyn took Labour from being a party that casually opposed the government - which is the only way I can describe Labour's policies between 2010 and the election in 2015 - to actually opposing the government. You only have to look at manifestos and voting records to see this. Before 2015 Labour abstained on a number of crucial bills - one of which set in motion the Windrush Scandal. That's not opposing. Once Corbyn took the helm, Labour established positions that put a lot of space between themselves and the Tories.

As an example, I didn't vote Labour in 2010, nor in 2015 because their positions were effectively Tory-lite. A bit less nastier on the immigration front, still wedded to neo-Liberal economics, would have imposed austerity on the country. There was nothing there for me to like. It was all very halfhearted - a price cap rather than full on nationalisation to stop energy companies ripping off consumers. Piddle.

In 2017 and 2019 voters were offered (and for the first time in many years) a real choice. That is real opposition.

Of course Corbyn was attacked so frequently, and unceasingly by most of the media, and enemies within and without his party that it's easy for a perception like that to take hold. Moving beyond perception, the facts as I've set out are clear. The narrative around Corbyn started off with negative preset assumptions. That working class voters thought him "incompetent" - speaks to the power of the press. Andrew Mitchell worked with him on a cross party extradition campaign, and had good words. Look up the various campaigns he's been on, and people he's worked with, and "incompetent" never comes into the frame. "Unelectable" - by rights Johnson should be unelectable. Chaotic family life, proven serial liar, strong track record of failure in office, etc - but his image has been carefully manicured.

As for anti-Semitism in the Labour Party - the leaked report showed that staffers in Labour HQ working to bring Corbyn down were responsible for (among many things) delaying investigations into anti-Semitism in order to discredit the leadership. I think Starmer will have to rid the party of these people, but I don't think we'll hear much about anti-Semitism from now on. It's purpose has been served:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... sm-scanda/

As I've already mentioned Corbyn's biggest problem was he never won the confidence of his own MP'S,now there may well have been various reasons for this,but if some of his MP'S didn''t have faith in his leadership,why would the country,i suppose the bigger is will Keir Starmer move Labour towards the centre ground,and if he does how will he keep people like yourself on board,as well as attracting the floating voters like myself and many others,the reality is the UK isn't going to elect a Labour Party espousing Corbynite policies anytime soon,even in 2017 when arguably Jeremy Corbyn was at his highest point,and he faced a weak PM in Theresa May,and a Conservative Party riven by their own infighting,he only made modest progress.

The quandary for many voters in our FPTP 2 party system is in most Seats,certainly In England,a vote for anyone outwith the big 2 is a wasted vote,hence why despite both parties being viewed with suspicion they are hovering up 80%+ of the vote,until a viable 3rd party emerges,which with the Lib Dems imploding isn't on the cards anytime soon,then it's a choice of tweedledum or tweedledee,the voters were offered a real choice in 2017 and 2019,but they resoundingly rejected Labour,especially in their most recent trip to the ballot box,this is why i sense Starmer will try and reposition Labour at the next election,his argument will probably be along the lines of if you aren't in power you can't make a difference in people's lives.

If that's the case will you stick with Labour or go back to the Greens?,climate change will still be an issue without question,as will the CV fallout.

My voting history is erratic as well,so the Conservatives shouldn't assume i'll vote for them at the the next GE,brexit won't resonate as an issue, then,bleeding hope not anyway,and there's plenty of potential pitfalls awaiting the government,even beyond this current crisis.

[AndrewJB]

As I've already mentioned Corbyn's biggest problem was he never won the confidence of his own MP'S,now there may well have been various reasons for this,but if some of his MP'S didn''t have faith in his leadership,why would the country,i suppose the bigger is will Keir Starmer move Labour towards the centre ground,and if he does how will he keep people like yourself on board,as well as attracting the floating voters like myself and many others,the reality is the UK isn't going to elect a Labour Party espousing Corbynite policies anytime soon,even in 2017 when arguably Jeremy Corbyn was at his highest point,and he faced a weak PM in Theresa May,and a Conservative Party riven by their own infighting,he only made modest progress.

The quandary for many voters in our FPTP 2 party system is in most Seats,certainly In England,a vote for anyone outwith the big 2 is a wasted vote,hence why despite both parties being viewed with suspicion they are hovering up 80%+ of the vote,until a viable 3rd party emerges,which with the Lib Dems imploding isn't on the cards anytime soon,then it's a choice of tweedledum or tweedledee,the voters were offered a real choice in 2017 and 2019,but they resoundingly rejected Labour,especially in their most recent trip to the ballot box,this is why i sense Starmer will try and reposition Labour at the next election,his argument will probably be along the lines of if you aren't in power you can't make a difference in people's lives.

If that's the case will you stick with Labour or go back to the Greens?,climate change will still be an issue without question,as will the CV fallout.

My voting history is erratic as well,so the Conservatives shouldn't assume i'll vote for them at the the next GE,brexit won't resonate as an issue, then,bleeding hope not anyway,and there's plenty of potential pitfalls awaiting the government,even beyond this current crisis.

The political pendulum is swinging the other way. I'll go out on a limb and predict that Labour's 2019 Manifesto will be seen as weak tea compared to what will be on offer at the next election. Public ownership won't be considered quite as radical, and nor will government intervention in the economy. Something that has come to the fore with home schooling is the lack of internet access, or absence of compute power for many households. More than just owning the infrastructure, I can see internet access becoming like water (more or less a human right) provision. Every house will have it, and every house will have some sort of simple dumb terminal with compute power provided via a government cloud. Fully a third of all the children at the school I work in have had to take home physical homework packs.

[tiger76]

The political pendulum is swinging the other way. I'll go out on a limb and predict that Labour's 2019 Manifesto will be seen as weak tea compared to what will be on offer at the next election. Public ownership won't be considered quite as radical, and nor will government intervention in the economy. Something that has come to the fore with home schooling is the lack of internet access, or absence of compute power for many households. More than just owning the infrastructure, I can see internet access becoming like water (more or less a human right) provision. Every house will have it, and every house will have some sort of simple dumb terminal with compute power provided via a government cloud. Fully a third of all the children at the school I work in have had to take home physical homework packs.

You may be proven right Andrew,as ever time will tell,and i can see more people working from home as technology improves,which will hopefully help the environment,mind you if we want to build a decent communications network fit for the 21st century,it would help if idiots stopped attacking the very engineers trying to maintain and upgrade that very same network.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-52395771

[aggi]

The question is about opposition, and Corbyn took Labour from being a party that casually opposed the government - which is the only way I can describe Labour's policies between 2010 and the election in 2015 - to actually opposing the government. You only have to look at manifestos and voting records to see this. Before 2015 Labour abstained on a number of crucial bills - one of which set in motion the Windrush Scandal. That's not opposing. Once Corbyn took the helm, Labour established positions that put a lot of space between themselves and the Tories.

As an example, I didn't vote Labour in 2010, nor in 2015 because their positions were effectively Tory-lite. A bit less nastier on the immigration front, still wedded to neo-Liberal economics, would have imposed austerity on the country. There was nothing there for me to like. It was all very halfhearted - a price cap rather than full on nationalisation to stop energy companies ripping off consumers. Piddle.

In 2017 and 2019 voters were offered (and for the first time in many years) a real choice. That is real opposition.

Of course Corbyn was attacked so frequently, and unceasingly by most of the media, and enemies within and without his party that it's easy for a perception like that to take hold. Moving beyond perception, the facts as I've set out are clear. The narrative around Corbyn started off with negative preset assumptions. That working class voters thought him "incompetent" - speaks to the power of the press. Andrew Mitchell worked with him on a cross party extradition campaign, and had good words. Look up the various campaigns he's been on, and people he's worked with, and "incompetent" never comes into the frame. "Unelectable" - by rights Johnson should be unelectable. Chaotic family life, proven serial liar, strong track record of failure in office, etc - but his image has been carefully manicured.

As for anti-Semitism in the Labour Party - the leaked report showed that staffers in Labour HQ working to bring Corbyn down were responsible for (among many things) delaying investigations into anti-Semitism in order to discredit the leadership. I think Starmer will have to rid the party of these people, but I don't think we'll hear much about anti-Semitism from now on. It's purpose has been served:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende ... sm-scanda/

I think Labour under Corbyn did a reasonable job in providing an alternative party with a different outlook and different polices.

What I don't think they did particularly well was hold the government to account. They didn't play the press game well enough, they didn't capitalise on the Government mistakes, they weren't consistently on message.

I suspect part of it was due to their confused stance on Brexit. It's difficult to hold the opposition to account when your party and its voters want different things. Part of it was down to Corbyn not being savvy enough though. Watching him doing PMQs where he'd ask a killer question, May would prevaricate and then Corbyn, rather than seizing the opportunity to put her on the spot, would move on.

I have no doubt that he is a good MP but I don't think he had what was needed to be a good leader.

[Devils_Advocate]

As I've already mentioned Corbyn's biggest problem was he never won the confidence of his own MP'S,now there may well have been various reasons for this,but if some of his MP'S didn''t have faith in his leadership,why would the country

Question on this bit. If Starmer faces the same issue as Corbyn but this time it is the Corbynites backstabbing their leader and causing trouble within their own party where will you and where do you think the media and public will see the blame?

Will Starmer be at fault for not being able to win the confidence of his MPs or will the left wing and Momentum still be blamed but this time for being saboteurs?

Personally I think the media and the public will still blame the left wing of the party in an act of unwitting hypocrisy

[tiger76]

Question on this bit. If Starmer faces the same issue as Corbyn but this time it is the Corbynites backstabbing their leader and causing trouble within their own party where will you and where do you think the media and public will see the blame?

Will Starmer be at fault for not being able to win the confidence of his MPs or will the left wing and Momentum still be blamed but this time for being saboteurs?

Personally I think the media and the public will still blame the left wing of the party in an act of unwitting hypocrisy

A genuine that i don't know the answer to,how many hardcore corbynites is there in the Labour parliamentary party,as i recall quite a few lost their seats in December,some have taken roles in the shadow cabinet,prominently Rebecca Long-Bailey amongst them,so she's not likely to rock the boat overly much,Starmer is trying to balance between two stools and that's tough,i don't think the Momentum wing of the party will move straight away they'll see how Starmer's early months play out first,there is one major difference already Keir can point too,and that's the simple fact that he won the most nominations from MP'S/MEP'S,as well as the members vote,so it's hard to question his mandate just now.

The media will always stoke up trouble,especially towards Labour,that's just the harsh reality,the majority of the public probably won't see all the minutiae that some political geeks will,so there's a danger that they just see Labour as infighting again and this alone will turn many off.

A good article here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... r-victory

Could be a battle for Lansman to maintain his hold over Momentum if that report's got any credence.

Who would i blame i dunno but either way it won't help Labour's electoral prospects if they descend into domestic squabbles,the 1980's and Militant should serve as a lesson for them to heed.

[Devils_Advocate]

A genuine that i don't know the answer to,how many hardcore corbynites is there in the Labour parliamentary party,as i recall quite a few lost their seats in December,some have taken roles in the shadow cabinet,prominently Rebecca Long-Bailey amongst them,so she's not likely to rock the boat overly much,Starmer is trying to balance between two stools and that's tough,i don't think the Momentum wing of the party will move straight away they'll see how Starmer's early months play out first,there is one major difference already Keir can point too,and that's the simple fact that he won the most nominations from MP'S/MEP'S,as well as the members vote,so it's hard to question his mandate just now.

The media will always stoke up trouble,especially towards Labour,that's just the harsh reality,the majority of the public probably won't see all the minutiae that some political geeks will,so there's a danger that they just see Labour as infighting again and this alone will turn many off.

A good article here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... r-victory

Could be a battle for Lansman to maintain his hold over Momentum if that report's got any credence.

Who would i blame i dunno but either way it won't help Labour's electoral prospects if they descend into domestic squabbles,the 1980's and Militant should serve as a lesson for them to heed.

I wasn't looking for the whys and wherefores but just making an assumption that Labour face the same internal fighting and backstabbing under Starmer and then exploring if youd have the same view around failure to win the confidence of his MPs

Sounds like youre already seeing ways why Starmer would not be resonsible in the same way Corbyn was and if a balanced and sensible person like you is thinking this way I can only imagine what the anti Corbyn media will make of it

On the last bit I agree and one of their biggest issues might be the infighting between the centre and the left still. The funny thing is whist the left still getting the blame when the roles are reversed might well be unfair and hypocritical it will probably help the Labour party more generally as they can marginalise and attack the fringe rather than going at the throat like the last few years has seen

[tiger76]

First big test of Starmer's leadership?

Labour frontbench MP blasted 'after claiming Tories plot to murder British citizens'

A Labour frontbencher is facing calls to resign after he reportedly claimed Conservatives have “conspired to murder” Brits.

Lloyd Russell-Moyle, the shadow environment minister, made the comments to party supporters during last year’s general election campaign, according to the Mail on Sunday.

“I do not think it is an exaggeration when we say the Conservatives have conspired to murder and let die British citizens,” he reportedly said. “That is what they have done and that is what they will continue to do.”

The tirade, made on a video seen by the Mail on Sunday, also reportedly saw the Brighton Kemptown MP vow to “rout out” Tories in his constituency, adding: “We know where they live.”

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer is now under pressure to sack the pro-Corbyn MP.

A spokesperson for Sir Keir said: “These comments are unacceptable and Lloyd will be spoken to about them. We need to draw a line under this type of behaviour and have a more respectful debate.”

Labour MP for Bermondsey Neil Coyle called Mr Russell-Moyle to quit. “'The use of extreme language was partly what put so many voters off supporting Labour in December," he said.

"Accusations of murder or conspiracy should not be used to try to stir up hatred and division."

Tory MP Jonathan Gullis called the remarks “disgusting”, tweeting: "It’s time to step up and sack Lloyd Russell-Moyle now Sir @Keir_Starmer.

“This hard left Corbynism to “rout out” Conservatives has meant I have had death threats and emails to previous employers demanding I’m sacked for simply being a Conservative and teacher.”

Mr Rusell-Moyle, who entered Parliament in 2017, also provoked outcry last year when he seized the maice - the symbol of the Queen’s authority - from the Commons in a protest against Brexit.

The Standard could not reach Mr Russell-Moyle for comment.

It's time these Corbynites either moderated their language or left the party,he certainly shouldn't be in a prominent front bench position.

That said i am curious why the footage is only coming to light now,several months after the election.

[NewClaret]

The political pendulum is swinging the other way. I'll go out on a limb and predict that Labour's 2019 Manifesto will be seen as weak tea compared to what will be on offer at the next election. Public ownership won't be considered quite as radical, and nor will government intervention in the economy. Something that has come to the fore with home schooling is the lack of internet access, or absence of compute power for many households. More than just owning the infrastructure, I can see internet access becoming like water (more or less a human right) provision. Every house will have it, and every house will have some sort of simple dumb terminal with compute power provided via a government cloud. Fully a third of all the children at the school I work in have had to take home physical homework packs.

I disagree that the political pendulum is “swinging the other way”. Tend to agree that public ownership won’t be seen as quite so radical at the next election, as I imagine the government will own large stakes in many companies by then. Agree also with your internet access point.

[NewClaret]

First big test of Starmer's leadership?

Labour frontbench MP blasted 'after claiming Tories plot to murder British citizens'

A Labour frontbencher is facing calls to resign after he reportedly claimed Conservatives have “conspired to murder” Brits.

Lloyd Russell-Moyle, the shadow environment minister, made the comments to party supporters during last year’s general election campaign, according to the Mail on Sunday.

“I do not think it is an exaggeration when we say the Conservatives have conspired to murder and let die British citizens,” he reportedly said. “That is what they have done and that is what they will continue to do.”

The tirade, made on a video seen by the Mail on Sunday, also reportedly saw the Brighton Kemptown MP vow to “rout out” Tories in his constituency, adding: “We know where they live.”

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer is now under pressure to sack the pro-Corbyn MP.

A spokesperson for Sir Keir said: “These comments are unacceptable and Lloyd will be spoken to about them. We need to draw a line under this type of behaviour and have a more respectful debate.”

Labour MP for Bermondsey Neil Coyle called Mr Russell-Moyle to quit. “'The use of extreme language was partly what put so many voters off supporting Labour in December," he said.

"Accusations of murder or conspiracy should not be used to try to stir up hatred and division."

Tory MP Jonathan Gullis called the remarks “disgusting”, tweeting: "It’s time to step up and sack Lloyd Russell-Moyle now Sir @Keir_Starmer.

“This hard left Corbynism to “rout out” Conservatives has meant I have had death threats and emails to previous employers demanding I’m sacked for simply being a Conservative and teacher.”

Mr Rusell-Moyle, who entered Parliament in 2017, also provoked outcry last year when he seized the maice - the symbol of the Queen’s authority - from the Commons in a protest against Brexit.

The Standard could not reach Mr Russell-Moyle for comment.

It's time these Corbynites either moderated their language or left the party,he certainly shouldn't be in a prominent front bench position.

That said i am curious why the footage is only coming to light now,several months after the election.

Does sound a bit like one of AndrewJB’s posts earlier today? Are you sure you work in a school Andrew?

[NewClaret]

Question on this bit. If Starmer faces the same issue as Corbyn but this time it is the Corbynites backstabbing their leader and causing trouble within their own party where will you and where do you think the media and public will see the blame?

Will Starmer be at fault for not being able to win the confidence of his MPs or will the left wing and Momentum still be blamed but this time for being saboteurs?

Personally I think the media and the public will still blame the left wing of the party in an act of unwitting hypocrisy

That’s the exact problem KS faces; he has to move the party more towards the centre and unify a party with severe divisions... all whilst appearing to be in control. Since JC filled the party full of momentum candidates, that’ll be a big, big ask. Feel quite sorry for him as he seems to be a decent bloke whose early career may be beset with civil war.

[NewClaret]

I think Labour under Corbyn did a reasonable job in providing an alternative party with a different outlook and different polices.

What I don't think they did particularly well was hold the government to account. They didn't play the press game well enough, they didn't capitalise on the Government mistakes, they weren't consistently on message.

I suspect part of it was due to their confused stance on Brexit. It's difficult to hold the opposition to account when your party and its voters want different things. Part of it was down to Corbyn not being savvy enough though. Watching him doing PMQs where he'd ask a killer question, May would prevaricate and then Corbyn, rather than seizing the opportunity to put her on the spot, would move on.

I have no doubt that he is a good MP but I don't think he had what was needed to be a good leader.

Good activist, not a good leader.

Great stood on a box with a loud speaker, less so stood at the dispatch box. As you say, May was very weak and he could have taken her to the cleaners.

Suspect KS will be much more Prime Ministerial in that respect.

[dermotdermot]

Kier Starmer must be ruthless with this one. Not just have a word with him. This may be slightly historic but, having googled him, I’ve suddenly realised who he is. I’m actually really surprised that he was given a job in the shadow cabinet. A ranting radical corbynite of the worst kind. I remember him being totally taken apart for his ridiculous theories in a pre-election interview. He came across as a very nasty person. The type of person who isn’t at all worthy of the position that he has. Starmer shouldn’t have to pander to such people. Just get rid. They’ve done enough damage already.

[Damo]

A report today that Shamima Begum may have been radicalised by groups linked to, and funded by Tower Hamlets (Labour) council
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/rotten-boroughs

It's going to take Starmer years to stop the rot, if that is his plan

[aggi]

A report today that Shamima Begum may have been radicalised by groups linked to, and funded by Tower Hamlets (Labour) council
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/rotten-boroughs

It's going to take Starmer years to stop the rot, if that is his plan

That's going to provide a real dilemma for some of the posters on here. Do they stick with "she was 15, she was old enough to know what she was doing" or switch to "it was the labour council's fault"? I reckon some will be brave and try and claim both.

[Damo]

That's going to provide a real dilemma for some of the posters on here. Do they stick with "she was 15, she was old enough to know what she was doing" or switch to "it was the labour council's fault"? I reckon some will be brave and try and claim both.

I wouldn't say those two arguments are mutually exclusive, but if you want to catch out the people this is aimed at, you could ask them if 16 year olds should be able to vote in a referendum/GE

[KateR]

That's going to provide a real dilemma for some of the posters on here. Do they stick with "she was 15, she was old enough to know what she was doing" or switch to "it was the labour council's fault"? I reckon some will be brave and try and claim both.

well Aggi, why don't you start the ball rolling proper and give us all the benefit of your wisdom in what you think the right answer is?

[Corky]

well Aggi, why don't you start the ball rolling proper and give us all the benefit of your wisdom in what you think the right answer is?

I wouldn't hold your breath.

For what it's worth I think it is very subjective. She could well have known exactly what she was doing as a 15 year old but not necessarily thought through the consequences. And she could well have been much influenced by Dinar Hossain and others who held positions of power and authority within Tower Hamlets. Perhaps someone should ask her, but the answer I guess would be "it's all the councils fault" at least if she is being well advised.

[RingoMcCartney]

A report today that Shamima Begum may have been radicalised by groups linked to, and funded by Tower Hamlets (Labour) council
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/rotten-boroughs

It's going to take Starmer years to stop the rot, if that is his plan

Keir Starmer to stop the rot?

Keir Starmer is the rot.

[TheFamilyCat]

Keir Starmer to stop the rot?

Keir Starmer is the rot.

He lives in an expensive house. We can't have that now, can we?

[aggi]

well Aggi, why don't you start the ball rolling proper and give us all the benefit of your wisdom in what you think the right answer is?

I think that it's very difficult to suggest that she has been groomed (and if there was a cover-up then that suggests she was groomed) and is also fully responsbile for her actions.

(As an aside, I also think it is difficult to argue that as a 15 year old she wasn't responsible for her actions but 16 year olds are mature enough to vote.)

[RingoMcCartney]

He lives in an expensive house. We can't have that now, can we?

Fairly sure that every single one of Keir "charisma-free zone" Starmer's appointments, means the shadow cabinet is entirely made up of people who voted Remain.

Looks like he's determined to "Remain" in opposition for the foreseeable then!

[KateR]

I think that it's very difficult to suggest that she has been groomed (and if there was a cover-up then that suggests she was groomed) and is also fully responsbile for her actions.

(As an aside, I also think it is difficult to argue that as a 15 year old she wasn't responsible for her actions but 16 year olds are mature enough to vote.)

It's certainly a conundrum I think, but the 15/16 year old and vote is a red herring I think, is the same with many age change laws, driving license etc. some 15 years old's are certainly more mature and can think better than many a 17 or even 18 year old so it's down to the person and not knowing her it's impossible to say how mature she is in terms of thinking.

Regarding the grooming I also can't judge off one report I've heard but it wouldn't surprise me.

It's a mess, but one I think she walked in to and was not kidnapped so she has to take some of the blame, personally it's her parents I feel most sorry for assuming they were not part of any type of grooming or that they influenced her thinking/leanings in this area during her upbringing.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Sir Keir is the new bogeyman then. Great.

[aggi]

Sir Keir is the new bogeyman then. Great.

It will be interesting to see what attack lines people go with.

I'm tipping big house and not working class enough (whilst simultaeneously saying that the reason people are voting tory is because the working class are aspirational now) plus he didn't get every decision right whilst DPP.

[aggi]

I wouldn't hold your breath.

For what it's worth I think it is very subjective. She could well have known exactly what she was doing as a 15 year old but not necessarily thought through the consequences. And she could well have been much influenced by Dinar Hossain and others who held positions of power and authority within Tower Hamlets. Perhaps someone should ask her, but the answer I guess would be "it's all the councils fault" at least if she is being well advised.

See above.

[Burnley Ace]

It will be interesting to see what attack lines people go with.

I'm tipping big house and not working class enough (whilst simultaeneously saying that the reason people are voting tory is because the working class are aspirational now) plus he didn't get every decision right whilst DPP.

He let Jimmy Saville off?

[ksrclaret]

It will be interesting to see what attack lines people go with.

I'm tipping big house and not working class enough (whilst simultaeneously saying that the reason people are voting tory is because the working class are aspirational now) plus he didn't get every decision right whilst DPP.

It’s been absolutely desperate stuff so far. He’s lives in an expensive house and doesn’t have any charisma? Jesus, that could be attributed to every single member of the House of Commons.

[tiger76]

It’s been absolutely desperate stuff so far. He’s lives in an expensive house and doesn’t have any charisma? Jesus, that could be attributed to every single member of the House of Commons.

Personally i couldn't care less if he's charismatic,i care if he's competent or not,thus far he's been fine in the role,it's impossible to fully judge him until politics and society as a whole return to some form of normality,but the early signs are promising,and i'm willing to give Keir a chance to prove his worth,before forming a judgement.

[Devils_Advocate]

He let Jimmy Saville off?

F*cking hell you really are thick as pig sh*t

[aggi]

He let Jimmy Saville off?

Excellent illustration.

[AlargeClaret]

Just being rid of JC is worth a 10% vote rise. KS has done the usual “ new leader “ thing by keeping some ropey types to keep the Corbyn lot quiet , though he’ll need to get rid of the preposterous wokeness and “ insane left” types like Nandy and Long Bailey respectively .But putting his woke credentials before political realism may cause a rocky road with the likes of David Lammy and “ slippery’s” daughter Valerie on hand . I’d imagine a gradual Blairite type team emerging

[TVC15]

Nandy “insane left” ?

Do you just make this stuff up ?

[tiger76]

Nandy's one of Labour's best electoral assets,and if they're going to regain Northern seats she'll be pivotal in that process,i'd certainly not describe her as "insane left",Long-bailey maybe,but she's being given a good gig in the shadow cabinet to appease the Momentum faction,what the Tories most fear is Labour reclaiming the centrist ground,remember many of the Conservative votes are on loan,and if brexit isn't a major issue in the next election,it wouldn't take a lot for them to switch back,now Corbyn's out of the picture.

[TheFamilyCat]

Nandy “insane left” ?

Do you just make this stuff up ?

No, other people make it up and then feed it the masses

[AlargeClaret]

Nandy “insane left” ?

Do you just make this stuff up ?

You’re missing the word “ respectively
ie Nandy = wokeness

[aggi]

It's certainly a conundrum I think, but the 15/16 year old and vote is a red herring I think, is the same with many age change laws, driving license etc. some 15 years old's are certainly more mature and can think better than many a 17 or even 18 year old so it's down to the person and not knowing her it's impossible to say how mature she is in terms of thinking.

Regarding the grooming I also can't judge off one report I've heard but it wouldn't surprise me.

It's a mess, but one I think she walked in to and was not kidnapped so she has to take some of the blame, personally it's her parents I feel most sorry for assuming they were not part of any type of grooming or that they influenced her thinking/leanings in this area during her upbringing.

Regarding the voting thing, I'm not overly fussed by it. I don't see a good reason to move it down to 16 but it's not the end of the world if it happens.

Agreed it is a mess but, this is derailing the thread, it's interesting to see how responses to this differ from things like sexual grooming. You wouldn't normally expect to see suggestions that the victim should take some of the blame there as they weren't kidnapped in that case. (Although my main issue with the whole thing was the cowardly response from the UK in not taking any responsibility but that's obviously for another thread.)

[TVC15]

You’re missing the word “ respectively
ie Nandy = wokeness

Oh ok - what defines Nandy as that then ?

[AlargeClaret]

While Nandy is likely to be a key Starmer ally and ain’t no fan of JC’s “ lot”, I think she even tried to get shut of him ? I feel she’s a little blinded by “ Guardian -esque” issues of gender fluidity, racism in everything, remaining and so forth . Not to the degree of RLB or Lammy of course . In her favour she’s relatively “ normal “ compared to the likes of Awkward Ed and Emily “ I’m working class me you know” Thornberry

[TVC15]

Oh right.
So she is woke because she is :
Against racism...not really surprising given her patents heritage.
Because she wanted to remain - even though she was one of the most outspoken Labour MPs in saying they just needed to accept the result and her party needed to come up with a policy to deliver it.
As for gender fluidity just because she would not answer Piers Morgan’s bullying and ridiculous questions on the subject hardly makes her “woke”

She has also gone on record to say she agreed with a lot of the views and policies of JC. In reality most of the Labour Party do.

Nandy is the only politician who dealt with Andrew Neil in a respectable way....certain people decided that it would be wiser to be interviewed by Philip Schofield

She’s an asset to the Labour Party and it’s good that the new leader realised that.

[nil_desperandum]

While Nandy is likely to be a key Starmer ally and ain’t no fan of JC’s “ lot”, I think she even tried to get shut of him ? I feel she’s a little blinded by “ Guardian -esque” issues of gender fluidity, racism in everything, remaining and so forth .

Can't be sure what you are referring to there, but if it's a brexit related "remain" then nothing could be further from the mark. She was one of the most outspoken Labour MPs , insisting that "leaving" was the priority and was keen to get a "deal" over the line. Even during the Labour leadership campaign she referred to "remoaners" - which of course didn't go down too well with a lot of Labour supporters / /members.