Current Season Void Or Continue

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UnderSeige
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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Fri May 01, 2020 3:34 pm

dsr wrote: Why would a player who has been tested for coronavirus, playing with 21 others who have been tested for cornavirus, need to wear a face mask?
It is the Premier league who are proposing this. I think that it is a ridiculous idea.

The reason for wearing masks would be that you can't do the test and get the result immediately before the match. Once the tests have been carried out, the swab samples are sent off to a lab where they are processed. This takes around 24 hours. Some people don't get the results back for several days. It takes time and good lab conditions to get a reasonable degree of accuracy. In between the test and the match a player could contract the virus.

Also there is a risk that the test could be inaccurate.
https://theconversation.com/coronavirus ... sts-135972

UnderSeige
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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Fri May 01, 2020 3:36 pm

You don't need 14 days quarantine if you have been tested.
You do if you test positive or have been in contact with someone who has been tested positive.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Elizabeth » Fri May 01, 2020 3:46 pm

It did make me smile the thought of loads of facemasks lying around the penalty area.
There's only one solution to it then. The players' names and numbers will have to be 'pressed' on the masks.
The thought that players might have to wear masks is ridiculous and enough for me to want the season finishing now.
Apologies to anyone who is taking this serious
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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by ChorltonCharlie » Fri May 01, 2020 3:56 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 3:36 pm
You do if you test positive or have been in contact with someone who has been tested positive.
Don't think that will be the case going forward with much better testing in place. As long as you're isolated from the person you've been in contact with and have passed negative for the virus then you're fine. Think there may be a few days though before the virus shows up on tests.

Once you've got the virus it's 7 days, though you'd need a test to declare that you're clear of the virus before returning. In fairness though, if you've had it you probably wouldn't be wanting to train at day 8 anyway, though they say for some the symptoms are really mild.

UnderSeige
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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Fri May 01, 2020 3:57 pm

NewClaret wrote: If you accept it restarts before it is entirely safe to do so, the question becomes about what level of risk you accept and how you mitigate (not eliminate) the remaining risks. I expect, in another six weeks (the 08/06 proposal), risks will be much lower than they are now. But you could extend another month to July, if you want. Then you have to just manage the risks. There will be a million "what if's" - you just have to find an acceptable, if not ideal, protocol to manage them.
In reality 'risk' won't come into it when someone tests positive.

The government will shortly be starting 'contact tracing'. If a player tests positive, he will have to quarantine for 14 days along with anyone he has recently come into contact with.

'Contact tracing' is the governments way of managing risk to the whole of society. It has been highly successful in South Korea. Once the number of 'Active Cases' is at a low figure 'contact tracing' is one of the ways in which society can gradually get back to some sort of normality. However, if anyone is found to be positive in an antigen test during this time they will need to quarantine for 14 days.

There are also some promising developments in both vaccines and early stage anti-viral treatments. I am cautiously optimistic that things will look a lot brighter by the turn of the year.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Spijed » Fri May 01, 2020 4:00 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... ssion=true

"Premier League clubs want to finish the season behind closed doors at NEUTRAL stadiums from June... with West Ham, Man City and Arsenal likely to host games because they are not surrounded by housing"

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by NewClaret » Fri May 01, 2020 4:13 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 3:57 pm
In reality 'risk' won't come into it when someone tests positive.

The government will shortly be starting 'contact tracing'. If a player tests positive, he will have to quarantine for 14 days along with anyone he has recently come into contact with.

'Contact tracing' is the governments way of managing risk to the whole of society. It has been highly successful in South Korea. Once the number of 'Active Cases' is at a low figure 'contact tracing' is one of the ways in which society can gradually get back to some sort of normality. However, if anyone is found to be positive in an antigen test during this time they will need to quarantine for 14 days.

There are also some promising developments in both vaccines and early stage anti-viral treatments. I am cautiously optimistic that things will look a lot brighter by the turn of the year.
So no more football in 2020 for you?

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Darthlaw » Fri May 01, 2020 4:14 pm

Are they aware what is across the road at the Etihad?

Sounds daft but if they want away from Housing the likes of the Middlebrook might be a better shout.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Colburn_Claret » Fri May 01, 2020 4:53 pm

There's a danger that the Premier League are going to go OTT, in order to get government approval to start. Playing at neutral grounds is a point in question. It's so unnecessary, wouldn't prevent any potential spreading of the virus, in fact it would make it more likely.

Reducing the attendant entourage for both teams. Teams travelling straight to the ground, as late as practical before kick off. Minimising to the barest necessities the number of ground staff on duty. Similar protocol for the referee and linesmen. All behind closed doors obviously.
Teams entering and leaving the field of play seperately. No pre match handshakes. Thorough hygiene post and pre match of the changing facilities. Anything else is overkill, and designed to pander to the powers that be, rather than deal with the issue.

When the new season finally kicks off I would continue with the same protocols, apart from allowing in the crowd. But I'd keep the kiosks closed, bring your own food and drink, and make sure you take your rubbish home. Sadly for many on this board, I would ban all over 70's, and anyone with underlying health issues for at least the first half of the season. Maybe give them the half season tickets for free as a sign of gratitude. All the pre match facilities need to remain closed, try and get the crowd in as late as possible, and away from the ground as soon as possible.
It should be enough to satisfy the government, especially by September.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Fri May 01, 2020 7:26 pm

NewClaret wrote: So no more football in 2020 for you?
I think that sums it up.

Nor would I want to see some half baked mask wearing behind closed doors fiasco with no crowd or atmosphere.

Next March/April (if safe) with the virus behind us. Finish off the season with full crowds on the Turf would be my preference. All bars, hamburger vans, chip shops, pubs etc should be open. Over 70s attendance would be welcome. No masks need to be worn.

Start the next season in August 2021.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by dsr » Fri May 01, 2020 11:14 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:26 pm
I think that sums it up.

Nor would I want to see some half baked mask wearing behind closed doors fiasco with no crowd or atmosphere.

Next March/April (if safe) with the virus behind us. Finish off the season with full crowds on the Turf would be my preference. All bars, hamburger vans, chip shops, pubs etc should be open. Over 70s attendance would be welcome. No masks need to be worn.

Start the next season in August 2021.
But will the players agree to do without a year's salary?

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 10:19 am

dsr wrote: But will the players agree to do without a year's salary?
In the middle of a global pandemic with hundreds of thousands of fatalities and many people losing their livelihoods I guess that 'footballers maintaining their high levels of income' is one of the least of worries.

The club and players will have to negotiate salaries between themselves. The 'out of contract players' might have to settle for a lower income for the next few months.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by NewClaret » Sat May 02, 2020 10:38 am

UnderSeige wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:26 pm
I think that sums it up.

Nor would I want to see some half baked mask wearing behind closed doors fiasco with no crowd or atmosphere.

Next March/April (if safe) with the virus behind us. Finish off the season with full crowds on the Turf would be my preference. All bars, hamburger vans, chip shops, pubs etc should be open. Over 70s attendance would be welcome. No masks need to be worn.

Start the next season in August 2021.
What does “if safe” mean? Presumably vaccine or cure?

I assume by the same token you don’t think anyone should go back to work before next April/March? (if safe)

UnderSeige
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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 10:49 am

Colborn_Claret wrote: Sadly for many on this board, I would ban all over 70's, and anyone with underlying health issues for at least the first half of the season. Maybe give them the half season tickets for free as a sign of gratitude.
There are also other groups who are more prone to catching the virus and developing critical conditions and also people who are in close contact with people from vulnerable groups:
  • People who live with over 70's, and people who live with anyone with underlying health issues
  • Overweight people.
  • People with certain blood group types - Blood group A
  • People who smoke tobacco or use vape
  • People over the age of 60
  • People with dark coloured skin
  • People who are vitamin or mineral deficient - particularly Vitamin D
  • People who drink alcohol
  • All males
  • Anyone who lives in the same household as any of the above
The good thing though is that banning all of these groups should enable good social distancing at matches.
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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat May 02, 2020 10:53 am

UnderSeige wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:26 pm
I think that sums it up.

Nor would I want to see some half baked mask wearing behind closed doors fiasco with no crowd or atmosphere.

Next March/April (if safe) with the virus behind us. Finish off the season with full crowds on the Turf would be my preference. All bars, hamburger vans, chip shops, pubs etc should be open. Over 70s attendance would be welcome. No masks need to be worn.

Start the next season in August 2021.
You might think you understand the pandemic, but you certainly don't understand Business or Sport.
If this continues until next March/April there won't be a league, or definitely not as we know it. Many, many teams will go to the wall, never to come back. We will end up with what the losers out there want, a league based solely on the wealth of the owners, not the quality of the club. Would we survive, probably, but it isn't guaranteed.
As for the rest of the country, if you applied those strict measures to the rest of businesses, then millions of people won't have a job to go back to. The Government wouldn't have enough money to cover the poverty created, we'd be back in the 1920's and the recessions of this century would be looked back on as the good old days.
If common sense is applied, we can get out of this by finishing this season, with whatever restrictions are necessary, and start the next season under slacker restrictions. The idea of barring over 70's, and people with underlying health issues, is to protect them, not to protect the rest of us, and if that means that the vast majority of the country can get their lives back on kilter it's common sense to impose it. I would expect most over 70's and people with underlying health issues to understand it, even if it doesn't make them happy.

Getting the country back moving again is the second most important thing to containing this disease. It has to be a stepped approach in order to have the ability to close it down quickly if the R rate starts rising again. The timing of those steps is the million dollar question, it has to be right, and I don't envy the decision makers, but next April. We might as well put a sign up at Dover, closed. It would be a catastrophe of unimaginable proportion.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by wilks_bfc » Sat May 02, 2020 10:55 am

If its to be away from homes, and neutral venues then wouldn't the using some the clubs training grounds be the best place?

Usually there is only one gated entrance in, so the public cant just turn up and the pitches there will all be the same standard as those at the stadiums?
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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 11:14 am

NewClaret wrote: What does “if safe” mean? Presumably vaccine or cure?
This is a question that the government and media should be answering and communicating more often and more clearly. It then gives us something to aim at and hope for.

'Safe' will be when around 70%-80% of the population is immune from the virus (Herd Immunity). This can occur by either:
  • People catching the virus and recovering
  • People being vaccinated with a successful vaccine
The 70-80% is a guess. I don't think that science yet knows what the exact herd immunity for COVID-19 is. The government was saying 55% a few weeks ago. Herd immunity from past viruses are:
  • Measles 92%-95%
  • Smallpox 80%-86%
  • Mumps 75%-86%
  • SARS 50%-80%
  • Influenza pandemics 33%-44%
  • Diphtheria 83%-86%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

I estimate that around 5% of the population are currently immune (based on government figures multiplied by 20). But this could be way off the mark

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Spijed » Sat May 02, 2020 11:17 am

UnderSeige wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 11:14 am
This is a question that the government and media should be answering and communicating more often and more clearly. It then gives us something to aim at and hope for.

'Safe' will be when around 70%-80% of the population is immune from the virus (Herd Immunity). This can occur by either:
  • People catching the virus and recovering
  • People being vaccinated with a successful vaccine
The 70-80% is a guess. I don't think that science yet knows what the exact herd immunity for COVID-19 is. The government was saying 55% a few weeks ago. Herd immunity from past viruses are:
  • Measles 92%-95%
  • Smallpox 80%-86%
  • Mumps 75%-86%
  • SARS 50%-80%
  • Influenza pandemics 33%-44%
  • Diphtheria 83%-86%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

I estimate that around 5% of the population are currently immune (based on government figures multiplied by 20). But this could be way off the mark
So what happens if there is no football to go back to?

What will you do?

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 11:42 am

Colburn_Claret wrote: if you applied those strict measures to the rest of businesses, then millions of people won't have a job to go back to.
I listed those strict measures to show how ludicrous it would be to have mass gatherings whilst banning people at risk. I wouldn't advocate implementing them.

As for the economy there will be a number of stages to getting things going over the next few months. I don't know what they are. They will emerge with time. It will probably be along the following lines:
  • Keep isolating until the number of active cases is down to a low number - this requires mass testing which the government has begun to implement.
  • Start contact tracing and maintain this until the pandemic is over.
  • Require individuals to wear face coverings in public places.
  • Start releasing low-covid spreading businesses to start trading again - e.g takeaway food.
  • If virus doesn't pick up again - start releasing further businesses and industry.
  • Allow people more freedom to make journeys and visit parks etc.
  • Open coffee shops and restaurants with social distancing
  • Open schools with social distancing.
  • ...
  • ...
  • Get vaccine.
  • Begin vaccinating front line workers and vulnerable individuals
  • Allow family gatherings
  • Vaccines at work along with full release of businesses and industry
  • Vaccines of the rest of the population through health centres and chemists.
  • Open the pubs and clubs
  • Allow mass gatherings
The collateral damage of all this is anyone's guess but if we release things too early and have a second wave of the virus the economic consequences of a second lockdown will be much worst.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by NewClaret » Sat May 02, 2020 12:06 pm

wilks_bfc wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 10:55 am
If its to be away from homes, and neutral venues then wouldn't the using some the clubs training grounds be the best place?

Usually there is only one gated entrance in, so the public cant just turn up and the pitches there will all be the same standard as those at the stadiums?
Seems odd to me that they would congregate players at the same venues/training facilities rather than keeping them segregated at their own facilities (I.e. any outbreak would be confined to one club)

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by ralphdpomeroy » Sat May 02, 2020 12:20 pm

I see the term sporting integrity bandied about ?

I cant see any integrity in changing the structure of a competition with only 9 games to play , as much as I don't like Brighton for example where is the integrity in them losing x amount of home games in front of their own fans in favour of playing in front of an empty ground somewhere ?

PPG for me which in itself isn't entirely fair either but I don't see any point in playing games without fans .

Forget the play-offs promote and relegate in the old way ...anyone doesn't like it let them go to court and see how far they get.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 1:29 pm

Spijed wrote: So what happens if there is no football to go back to?
I think that this question is far to pessimistic. There will be football to go back to.

Football has come through worst situations than this. Think of how long it was stopped during WW2.

The government has recently loaned a large sum of money to Rugby to keep it going. Lets hope that the lower league football clubs can get some similar help.

The more prudent Premiership clubs should be able to survive. If players hold out for full wages and cause clubs to go bankrupt they will be destroying their own profession. Some arrangements will need to be made between clubs and players. That's up to them though. The big money days in football might be coming to an end.

If we start to allow mass spectator sport, and other virus spreading activities, before the pandemic is under control there is likely to be a second wave of the virus. If this happens it will be very difficult for the government to subsidise sport, businesses and employees. We would then see the loss of a lot of sporting clubs. However, I don't think that it will come to that if we, and the government, stick to the current restrictions for as long as it takes.

What will I do if there is no football to go back to? I will do what they do in Wigan.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat May 02, 2020 3:00 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 11:42 am
I listed those strict measures to show how ludicrous it would be to have mass gatherings whilst banning people at risk. I wouldn't advocate implementing them.

As for the economy there will be a number of stages to getting things going over the next few months. I don't know what they are. They will emerge with time. It will probably be along the following lines:
  • Keep isolating until the number of active cases is down to a low number - this requires mass testing which the government has begun to implement.
  • Start contact tracing and maintain this until the pandemic is over.
  • Require individuals to wear face coverings in public places.
  • Start releasing low-covid spreading businesses to start trading again - e.g takeaway food.
  • If virus doesn't pick up again - start releasing further businesses and industry.
  • Allow people more freedom to make journeys and visit parks etc.
  • Open coffee shops and restaurants with social distancing
  • Open schools with social distancing.
  • ...
  • ...
  • Get vaccine.
  • Begin vaccinating front line workers and vulnerable individuals
  • Allow family gatherings
  • Vaccines at work along with full release of businesses and industry
  • Vaccines of the rest of the population through health centres and chemists.
  • Open the pubs and clubs
  • Allow mass gatherings
The collateral damage of all this is anyone's guess but if we release things too early and have a second wave of the virus the economic consequences of a second lockdown will be much worst.
I know what you did, but closing down 95% of the country to protect 5% of the population, indefinitely, is overkill, and unnecessary. Better to get 95% of the population back to normal a.s.a.p., and bring in extra stringent measures to protect the 5%. It is still a fact that most people who contract this only show minor or very few symptoms. That isn't a reason to stop all the measures taken so far, but it is a very good reason to start slackening the measures so that people and the economy they depend on, can be protected.
Why don't you focus your attention on coming up with something that is positive, instead of negative.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 5:26 pm

Colburn_claret wrote: Why don't you focus your attention on coming up with something that is positive, instead of negative.
I thought that most of the things on the brief list were positive. Releasing businesses from restrictions; re-opening schools; allowing people more freedom to make journeys and visit parks; administering a vaccine; opening pubs; allowing mass gatherings etc all sound positive to me. Possibly the difference is that I would like to do these things in the correct order and at the right times. Like the government tell us. We need to avoid a second wave of the virus.

If you look at my previous posts there is a lot of positive stuff about vaccines becoming available at the turn of the year.

Where did you get the '95% closing down figure' from? Is it real data that can be sourced?

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat May 02, 2020 5:32 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 5:26 pm
I thought that most of the things on the brief list were positive. Releasing businesses from restrictions; re-opening schools; allowing people more freedom to make journeys and visit parks; administering a vaccine; opening pubs; allowing mass gatherings etc all sound positive to me. Possibly the difference is that I would like to do these things in the correct order and at the right times. Like the government tell us. We need to avoid a second wave of the virus.

If you look at my previous posts there is a lot of positive stuff about vaccines becoming available at the turn of the year.

Where did you get the '95% closing down figure' from? Is it real data that can be sourced?
And not a word of that ties in with delaying football until next March or April, which is what you suggested!!!

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by tiger76 » Sat May 02, 2020 5:44 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:29 pm
I think that this question is far to pessimistic. There will be football to go back to.

Football has come through worst situations than this. Think of how long it was stopped during WW2.

The government has recently loaned a large sum of money to Rugby to keep it going. Lets hope that the lower league football clubs can get some similar help.

The more prudent Premiership clubs should be able to survive. If players hold out for full wages and cause clubs to go bankrupt they will be destroying their own profession. Some arrangements will need to be made between clubs and players. That's up to them though. The big money days in football might be coming to an end.

If we start to allow mass spectator sport, and other virus spreading activities, before the pandemic is under control there is likely to be a second wave of the virus. If this happens it will be very difficult for the government to subsidise sport, businesses and employees. We would then see the loss of a lot of sporting clubs. However, I don't think that it will come to that if we, and the government, stick to the current restrictions for as long as it takes.

What will I do if there is no football to go back to? I will do what they do in Wigan.
Football wasn't entirely stopped during WW2,but official leagues were suspended.

I do agree if this cessation is going to last long term,clubs may have to consider placing their playing squads on furlough,some might have already done this i believe,hopefully that action should enable clubs to weather this storm,although how contractual arrangements will affect any discussions is a moot point,yes the players may well have to accept lower salaries in the next few seasons,until the sport gets back on it's feet,welcome to the real world.

Most Premiership clubs should be able to sustain themselves,and the ones that can't i'm sure will be backed by their mega rich owners ,sadly in Burnley's case we don't have the latter,so we'll have to proceed with caution,and cut our cloth accordingly.

They'll certainly not be any mass spectator sports in this calendar year i suspect.

I hear they've got a good pier in Wigan you could always visit ;)

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 6:24 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote : And not a word of that ties in with delaying football until next March or April, which is what you suggested!!!
Yes it does. Allowing mass gatherings (which includes football) is near the end of the list. It is one of the last things that should be released from lockdown. The reason for this is that mass gatherings are a major catalyst for spreading infection.

Much as I like going onto the Turf there are more important things to consider such as saving the lives of NHS staff, the elderly and carers. Have you seen the news items in which NHS staff are pleading with people to abide by the restrictions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFZhMpuNzk

Also, there are other items on the list that are more important than football: getting people back to work, opening schools etc.

That 95% figure about the economy that you introduced is very negative. I cannot see it anywhere on the internet. As you seem to be suggesting, there is a serious economic problem with many businesses closed down. A more accurate figure is that around 75% of businesses are still open.
https://www.ft.com/content/f9537538-d7a ... b9a984aae4

There also some fantastic ventures occurring within the economy. Designer clothes makers turning to making PPE for the NHS; manufacturing plants making ventilators; Universities joining with pharmaceutical companies to develop a vaccine; tailors making protective equipment; supermarkets prioritising deliveries and food packages to deliver to people in isolation; insurances company employees working from home in order to ensure that claims get processed; utility and energy workers keeping homes supplied with energy and water. I'm sure that you could name a lot more.
https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/covid ... e-lockdown

All the best. Cheer up and stay safe. :)

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Stalbansclaret » Sat May 02, 2020 7:03 pm

Personally I really hope the season doesn't get null and voided, particularly if the option of expanding the PL to 22 teams next season by promoting Dirty Leeds and WBA, which is a suggestion that keeps cropping up, is taken up. We are safe so I don't want to be deprived of the joy/schadenfreude of seeing 3 teams get relegated...at least one of which will be a club I really dislike ! There will also be a certain chucklesome satisfaction about Liverpool having an "asterisked" title !
Watched Burnley v Palace on the YouTube playback this afternoon and it reminded me just how much I miss football.

I do think the picture is a bit more nuanced than is presented by many in terms of talking about football being irrelevant in the face of people dying etc etc. That is always the case, its a given, but Corona Virus, for all it's grim death toll primarily amongst the vulnerable, is not bubonic plague laying waste to people of all ages and states of health. Football is also not irrelevant in terms of morale and mental wellbeing too many. It seems to me it must be possible at some point in the near future to find a way for 22 healthy athletes to play football against each other at risk which is adjudged acceptable. Whether this is June or not may be a moot point but I really hope we don't see a null and void season.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Elizabeth » Sat May 02, 2020 7:05 pm

In a boost to the PL and fans who want this season completed, it has been reported in the last hour that the Spanish PM expects La Liga to resume soon after the Spanish government gave the green light for players to resume training on Monday.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sat May 02, 2020 7:58 pm

UnderSeige wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 6:24 pm
Yes it does. Allowing mass gatherings (which includes football) is near the end of the list. It is one of the last things that should be released from lockdown. The reason for this is that mass gatherings are a major catalyst for spreading infection.

Much as I like going onto the Turf there are more important things to consider such as saving the lives of NHS staff, the elderly and carers. Have you seen the news items in which NHS staff are pleading with people to abide by the restrictions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFZhMpuNzk

Also, there are other items on the list that are more important than football: getting people back to work, opening schools etc.

That 95% figure about the economy that you introduced is very negative. I cannot see it anywhere on the internet. As you seem to be suggesting, there is a serious economic problem with many businesses closed down. A more accurate figure is that around 75% of businesses are still open.
https://www.ft.com/content/f9537538-d7a ... b9a984aae4

There also some fantastic ventures occurring within the economy. Designer clothes makers turning to making PPE for the NHS; manufacturing plants making ventilators; Universities joining with pharmaceutical companies to develop a vaccine; tailors making protective equipment; supermarkets prioritising deliveries and food packages to deliver to people in isolation; insurances company employees working from home in order to ensure that claims get processed; utility and energy workers keeping homes supplied with energy and water. I'm sure that you could name a lot more.
https://www.techradar.com/uk/news/covid ... e-lockdown

All the best. Cheer up and stay safe. :)
75% of businesses are open at the moment, if this continues that number will drop, as it is unsustainable for businesses to carry on with overheads, whilst not generating income.
Designer clothes, whilst doing a sterling job, are making a pittance compared to what they can make manufacturing designer clothes. The same is true of companies who have turned to making ventilators.
The problem is you are looking at this from the wrong point of view. You want to protect the vulnerable by banning all places where they could catch Covid 19. It's so much easier instead of banning gatherings, to just ban the vulnerable from those gatherings.
There are enough safe guarding measures that can be taken to protect the elderly, and those with underlying health issues. There is no need for anyone who lives with someone in the vulnerable bracket, to attend football, or work for that matter. Just show some common sense. Unless of course your argument is that it could work, but why should I have to miss out. Well the truth is someone is going to have to. Nothing comes easy, and if it takes a bit of self sacrifice, in a non fatal sense, then thats what should be done. There's a far bigger picture here that you overlook.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sat May 02, 2020 8:42 pm

Colburn_Claret wrote: 75% of businesses are open at the moment, if this continues that number will drop, as it is unsustainable for businesses to carry on with overheads, whilst not generating income.
The government are currently helping many businesses and employees to stay afloat. Hopefully this will be enough to sustain most of them until we start coming out of lockdown. If we come out of lockdown too early the virus will take off again. I am not sure that the government would be able to help businesses and employees as much if we go into a second lockdown. You would then see a much more severe economic downturn than the one that we currently face. That's not just my opinion. It is the opinion of the government and their experts.

In the recent government briefings, one condition of coming out of lockdown is that there is 'no chance of a second peak occurring'. As you will be aware the government's economic and scientific experts will have briefed the government at length to arrive at this.

In South Korea, contact tracing has been very successful. However in order for it to be successful in the UK we need to get the live cases down to what the experts deem' a low enough figure' to start the tracing. This is why we are in lockdown with no mass gatherings.

Something that I do find a bit worrying is that you think that 95% of the economy is shut down. I am not sure where you got this figure from. Wherever you heard it don't believe it. It is rubbish. If it were true we would be shivering in the dark with no post, refuge collection, supermarkets, online ordering or much else. Situation bad but not that bad.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Colburn_Claret » Sun May 03, 2020 8:45 am

UnderSeige wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 8:42 pm
The government are currently helping many businesses and employees to stay afloat. Hopefully this will be enough to sustain most of them until we start coming out of lockdown. If we come out of lockdown too early the virus will take off again. I am not sure that the government would be able to help businesses and employees as much if we go into a second lockdown. You would then see a much more severe economic downturn than the one that we currently face. That's not just my opinion. It is the opinion of the government and their experts.

In the recent government briefings, one condition of coming out of lockdown is that there is 'no chance of a second peak occurring'. As you will be aware the government's economic and scientific experts will have briefed the government at length to arrive at this.

In South Korea, contact tracing has been very successful. However in order for it to be successful in the UK we need to get the live cases down to what the experts deem' a low enough figure' to start the tracing. This is why we are in lockdown with no mass gatherings.

Something that I do find a bit worrying is that you think that 95% of the economy is shut down. I am not sure where you got this figure from. Wherever you heard it don't believe it. It is rubbish. If it were true we would be shivering in the dark with no post, refuge collection, supermarkets, online ordering or much else. Situation bad but not that bad.
As I've said many times, comparing our stance to other countries is pointless, there are far too many variables for it to offer anything of value. Population density, how far people commute to work, its a long list.
Whilst what you've said above is fine, it still doesn't tie in to your theory of football not starting until next March , April, which is why I questioned you in the first place. Have you changed your mind because you've never mentioned it since.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sun May 03, 2020 9:58 am

As I've said many times, comparing our stance to other countries is pointless, there are far too many variables for it to offer anything of value. Population density, how far people commute to work, its a long list.
Whilst what you've said above is fine, it still doesn't tie in to your theory of football not starting until next March , April, which is why I questioned you in the first place. Have you changed your mind because you've never mentioned it since.


Yes it does. Allowing mass gatherings (which includes football) is near the end of the list. It is one of the last things that should be released from lockdown. The reason for this is that mass gatherings are a major catalyst for spreading infection.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sun May 03, 2020 10:07 am

Colburn_claret said As I've said many times, comparing our stance to other countries is pointless, there are far too many variables for it to offer anything of value. Population density, how far people commute to work, its a long list.
Whilst what you've said above is fine, it still doesn't tie in to your theory of football not starting until next March , April, which is why I questioned you in the first place. Have you changed your mind because you've never mentioned it since.
I said 2 posts ago: Yes it does. Allowing mass gatherings (which includes football) is near the end of the list. It is one of the last things that should be released from lockdown. The reason for this is that mass gatherings are a major catalyst for spreading infection.
Mass gatherings include football. Mass gatherings are a long way off. Football behind closed doors is a 'perhaps' but I can see it causing problems and also being a poor substitute for the real thing.

Using proven ways from other countries will help stop the virus from spreading here. The UK government and their scientific experts believe so and I have no reason to doubt them.

You still haven't answered where you got the ridiculous '95% of the economy shut down' figure from.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Paul Waine » Sun May 03, 2020 10:09 am

Good article in Sunday Times by Steve Parish - making the argument for completing the season.

Why I’m backing the Premier League’s Project Restart

Steve Parish, Crystal Palace chairman
Sunday May 03 2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times

I write, of course, amid the greatest tragedy to unfold in my lifetime. When Crystal Palace last played football, squeezing past Watford 1-0 on March 7, it was impossible to predict how words like “pandemic” and “coronavirus” would become so familiar to us all, and the terrible loss and sadness so many families would experience, in so short a time.

With little else in the news except the human and economic damage wrought by this disease, it can feel wrong even to contemplate taking steps back towards normality. But perhaps we should allow ourselves to do that. We in football accept it is an obsession that always seems to get inserted into public debate and that we are held to a higher account than other sectors, yet there are limits. Caring about the terrible situation around us and caring about our clubs and industry are not mutually exclusive.

I hope Crystal Palace, during this crisis, have acted in a way that acknowledges the important role we have in the community and I would stress that, first and foremost, football has an absolute duty to society. No sacrifice our game is making can come close to those being made by people on the front line. If we can do anything to help the NHS reduce fatalities or even make one person’s life easier, then it is of course the No 1 priority. But after that, I also have a duty to my club, staff and the wider sport. It helps no one if we — or any other industry — come out the other side in a worse state than we otherwise could have.

Hence Project Restart. Of course, there are many barriers. We know we cannot have spectators at matches. Given we cannot leave our houses at the moment, we know things out of our control must change before the Premier League can consider finishing 2019-20 or starting next season on time.
What’s more, if the nation decides that the gravity of events dictates that it’s simply not appropriate to play, then we must and will respect that. Of all the objections raised this is the only one that seems, to me, potentially insurmountable and I would respond to it with the following observations.

First, we will not walk from this nightmare in one quick step to a bright future, the disease over, the world on the same track that it was before. Barring a miracle or a vaccine, the next months are likely to involve a game of cat and mouse with Covid-19, with restrictions ebbing and flowing. Every facet of normal behaviour is going to crawl slowly from the wreckage — we may have to develop a completely new normal for work and social places.

I believe that just as Formula One is often the precursor to developments that become standard in general road vehicles, so Premier League football with its physical science, medical infrastructures and resources for looking after its people, can begin to define how the “new normal” might look for a lot of working environments.

Not only that, in our country and beyond, people need to find ways to move forward mentally, to experience some small relief from the worries of this crisis. In my view a story here and a conversation there about the game last night will not trivialise loss or suffering but offer a tiny respite from it for many people. Football is meaningless — but it is magnificently meaningless. It has the power to lighten lives; why not see if we can use that power again?

Let’s be clear: there are a list of things we cannot and will not do. We cannot occupy any paramedic or ambulance that the NHS needs. We must do our best not to create a public-order issue with supporters attempting to get close to grounds. Perhaps most importantly, we cannot take testing capacity from one person in greater need.

The issue of player and staff welfare has to be treated with the utmost seriousness. We must bring the players with us, we must listen to them, we must put the health of them and their families front and centre whenever we play again. It should be not just about rendering it safe for them but also making sure they feel safe.

But I’ve seen all the proposals for training and travel and while there are challenges, those proposals offer a level of protection to players, staff and officials that I believe will render Premier League football one of the safest places in society to co-exist, much safer than a journey to the supermarket at present.

Playing represents the greatest challenge, of course, because physical contact presents a risk of cross-infection but protocols are being worked on for that. At their centre is reducing to almost zero the chance of any player participating who is carrying the virus. It’s no more or less than every workplace will have to wrestle with until there is a vaccine.

Isn’t it all just about the money? Well, not entirely. I want to complete the competition for reasons of sporting integrity. I want to crown Liverpool champions and give every other club a fair crack at the best league position they can achieve. I certainly don’t want to have difficult conversations about curtailing, voiding and points per game. The ramifications of each are complex and could involve legal challenges that run on for months, if not years.

But, yes, it is partly about the money. And we should all care about the money. I’ll tell you why. Nobody wins if the Premier League receives less money. Nobody. We are already facing losses no one can quantify — and if we don’t finish the season we are entering uncharted waters.

Football is one of the most efficient tax-generating industries in Britain: we pay the players a lot but 50 per cent goes straight back into the public purse. Overall we pay about £3.3 billion in tax every year and it is the Premier League that largely funds the whole football pyramid.

It pays about £400 million per year to the English Football League (EFL) in parachute and solidarity payments — almost five times the EFL’s TV deal. It pays £25 million annually towards the National League and grassroots. The Premier League in itself does not make profit or retain cash — it is merely a mechanism for distributing income to its 20 clubs and throughout the game.

Suppliers, contractors and services in our communities depend on us and the money we spend on capital projects — Palace and Leicester City are building academy facilities costing tens of millions. Premier League clubs owe approximately £1.6 billion in transfer payments to other clubs, by far the most of any league.

So, this is about football’s whole ecosystem and the exchequer, and the many secondary industries football enriches. While Palace went into this in good shape financially, no business is immune to the realities of profit or loss and cash flow. Some Premier League clubs are already warning they face crisis if they cannot get back to playing, and in the EFL many more may face extinction.

Finally, and this is key, if we cannot play out the end of this season, why can we necessarily start the next one in August or September? Are we convinced things will look so much different from how they do today? Many of the same issues regarding player welfare, venues and closed-doors matches will exist then. The more we can work out now, the better chance we have of coming out of this with the game we all love in position to recover over time.

I think Javier Tebas, the La Liga president, had it right when justifying steps to try to restart in Spain. He said: “I do not understand why there would be more danger in playing football behind closed doors, with all precautionary measures, than working on an assembly line, being on a fishing boat on the high seas.”

Football is just another industry trying to get back to work. It doesn’t have any more right to do so than construction or retail but nor does it have any less. Neutral grounds, dressing-room distancing, no fans: however we do it, and whenever we do it, football cannot return the same. So let’s at least contemplate whether it’s possible. As Tebas observed: “If important economic sectors cannot restart, in a safe and controlled manner, they could end up disappearing. That could happen to professional football.”

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 03, 2020 10:30 am

Thanks Paul, I wouldn't have seen that article otherwise.
Puts a strong case for trying to get the season completed.
Would be good now to see a similar piece putting the case for ending the season now.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sun May 03, 2020 11:12 am

Elizabeth wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 10:30 am
Thanks Paul, I wouldn't have seen that article otherwise.
Puts a strong case for trying to get the season completed.
Would be good now to see a similar piece putting the case for ending the season now.
It would also be good to see a case for continuing the season at a later date. That would be my preference.

He makes some good points:
  • "Football has an absolute duty to society".
  • "No sacrifice our game is making can come close to those being made by people on the front line".
  • "The issue of player and staff welfare has to be treated with the utmost seriousness".
  • "We must bring the players with us, we must listen to them, we must put the health of them and their families front and centre whenever we play again".
  • "The next months are likely to involve a game of cat and mouse with Covid-19, with restrictions ebbing and flowing".

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by UnderSeige » Sun May 03, 2020 11:37 am

Some more food for thought.

Good Morning Britain Debate with Hartson, Savage and Piers Morgan.
Savage and Hartson making the point that the Premier League should continue when it's safe. Piers Morgan argues that the season should be void now and perhaps next season as well. I tend to agree with Hartson and Savage on this one although Piers makes the point of fans getting together on match days could be a problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ-HXnvhZM8


ITV News
Virologist argues that, in order to start behind closed doors, all squads would need to be put into isolation for two weeks. Following this they would only be able to play once a week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmygxBEPi-c

Sky Sports
Detailed discussion lasting one hour - I haven't watched this one yet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVHkr5gO9ME

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by tiger76 » Sun May 03, 2020 1:06 pm

Surprise,surprise clubs open to neutral venues being used,but only if the threat of relegation is removed.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52517532

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by dsr » Sun May 03, 2020 2:06 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 1:06 pm
Surprise,surprise clubs open to neutral venues being used,but only if the threat of relegation is removed.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52517532
This is the problem. It takes 14 teams to approve a rule change, so if 7 teams are afraid of relegation (or 6 teams are afraid and can get 1 to support them) then they can block the teams that want to play.

If the Premier League had any power of its own, the chief exec could say that the season carries on and clubs that refuse to play get no further points, win awarded ot their opponents; and there will still be relegation. That would buck their ideas up.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 03, 2020 2:14 pm

There are only 2 PL clubs that I could see mentioned in the report, Brighton and West Ham.
West Ham I think are only out of the bottom 3 on goal difference and were making noises when we were all thinking what have Italy done wrong to have so many deaths.
That mentality has changed but no surprise West Ham's mentality hasn't.
Brighton are a little safer but only just, and certainly one of the sides fancied to slip into the bottom 3 before all this happened. Their grievance is that they have more home games than away, mostly against the top sides. They do not accept the argument that this will be balanced by their 'away' games also being played on neutral grounds. The diving cheat up front, whose name I've forgotten, has also been bleating on all weekend with other reasons a return to football might not be a good idea.
So fear of relegation must not be underestimated as a driving force in how clubs will build their cases. I am interested in which direction the other relegation threatened club statements go.
Other that it going against the spirit of competition, I can see the way Brighton and West Ham are seeming to go. Scrap relegation and compensate Leeds and West Brom, allowing more teams to attain PL benefits. I would not be surprised if they supported that idea and accepted say 5 teams relegated from the PL the season after.
Um... where would that take us.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by conyoviejo » Sun May 03, 2020 2:46 pm

There is absolutely no way that Leeds and West Brom plus another club be given a place in the Premier league when the football league table is so close. It goes against everything fair.. How are the other clubs that are within catching distance going to react to that suggestion?

Either play out the Competions or cancel them,it's the only fair way, never mind giving teams a free passage into the Premier league and having 5 relegated the season after..

How anybody can make the suggestion of the top three as it stands now in the championship being put into the premier is beyond belief. Anybody who thinks that is deranged.
This user liked this post: Bosscat

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 03, 2020 3:22 pm

As Dyche would say con its just noise, love the passion

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Jeffbfc » Sun May 03, 2020 6:16 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 1:06 pm
Surprise,surprise clubs open to neutral venues being used,but only if the threat of relegation is removed.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52517532
If that is allowed then there is no integrity in the competition, it just shows it's about keeping the money.
Scandalous. :(

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by tiger76 » Sun May 03, 2020 6:20 pm

Jeffbfc wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 6:16 pm
If that is allowed then there is no integrity in the competition, it just shows it's about keeping the money.
Scandalous. :(
I wouldn't say all the clubs are impersonating Jerry Maguire,but most of them are,including ourselves.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Jeffbfc » Sun May 03, 2020 6:35 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 6:20 pm
I wouldn't say all the clubs are impersonating Jerry Maguire,but most of them are,including ourselves.
Agree, but you start with the chance of relegation and to get rid of it because it may be you, no not for me.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by FactualFrank » Sun May 03, 2020 6:47 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 1:06 pm
Surprise,surprise clubs open to neutral venues being used,but only if the threat of relegation is removed.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52517532
That would surely mean 5-6 teams being relegated next season. No thanks.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by tiger76 » Sun May 03, 2020 6:56 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 6:47 pm
That would surely mean 5-6 teams being relegated next season. No thanks.
Not only that,but the 3 promoted teams from last term(Norwich,Sheff Utd & Villa,will have had a season to bed in,and in Villa's case will almost certainly be stronger next time.

That's why i can't see it getting the green light,in the event of 5/6 teams facing the potential trap door,pretty much everyone outwith the big six,Everton,Leicester & Wolves could be looking over their shoulders,for the whole of next season,the clubs aren't going to vote for that.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Pstotto » Sun May 03, 2020 7:01 pm

The current idea on the table is to play out the season at 10 neutral venues.

The bottom six clubs are dragging their feet because they think it will have a negative influence on their results.

OF COURSE the bottom six are going to join together to fight this because none of them want to be relegated.

If they get their way, it's thicko rule.

Glen Murray says they need their fans, but so does every other club.

He says we need our 27,000 Amex fans but conversely their won't be any away fans and they won't be 'playing away' in the same sense as normal i.e, they won't have 70,000 Man U. fans dissing them etc. at away fixtures.

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Re: Current Season Void Or Continue

Post by Elizabeth » Sun May 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Everyone can see their game.
While the PL still have the power to decide on relegation if they choose to, similar to leagues in the countries who have ceased their competition, I hope that some of the bottom teams, especially those in the bottom 3, will decide it better to determine their fate on the field.
In other words to not join in this nonsense.

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