Covid-19

[claretonthecoast1882]

Just block the fool.

XX

[ralphdpomeroy]

Yesterday I had to take one of my lads to Burnley General then Blackburn ... The General was quiet Blackburn Royal or whatever its called now seemed busy but the roads were as busy as ever along the route ...

[evensteadiereddie]

Instead of feeling the need to be "explaining," you had all day to be doing a bit of researching Eddie.

I asked.




You failed. Then again, you were always going to. I never said any such thing.

And the weird thing is, as you know, nobody actually claimed that you SAID such a thing but it suits your stupid "look at me" agenda to pretend they did.
Clearly you didn't and just as clear, however, is your wish to have any relevant and probably damning questions of your ramshackle government to be shelved - gagged, one might say - to a later, much later and more comfortable date.
Any news praising the government is, of course, welcomed !
Sorry, bud, but your fantasy of the government controlling every single aspect of our media outlets ain't happening just yet.
Get used to it.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

Okay, so you believe the Spanish death count could be higher than ours, so because of that belief ours isn't the highest? I guess we'll see. It's all a bit ghoulish though.

I think the fact many of our newspapers are owned by billionaires who support the government has more to do with the fact their headlines distract from government bad news. Crazy that we live in a supposedly free country, and most of our newspapers are like PRAVDA.

The Spanish death count is higher??

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

The UK response to coronavirus has been pathetically ineffective, as expected from johnson...



and now...

"Last month, amid dire warnings of shortages of personal protective equipment for health workers, ministers publicised the imminent arrival from Turkey of a fleet of RAF cargo planes bringing in a “very significant” shipment of PPE for the NHS.

More than a fortnight later, it has emerged that every one of the 400,000 protective gowns that eventually arrived has been impounded after being found not to conform to UK standards.

The Department for Health and Social Care confirmed on Wednesday evening that the items were being held in a facility near Heathrow airport. It is understood that they are due to be sent back and that the DHSC intends to seek a refund, as it has done in similar situations in the past.

The announcement of the shipment by the communities secretary, Robert Jenrick, on 18 April came as unions and professional bodies warned that NHS staff may refuse to work without PPE.

Jenrick told the daily Downing Street press briefing that healthcare workers should be “assured that we are doing everything we can to correct this issue”, saying they would have the equipment they “need and deserve”.

Sources later told the Guardian that the DHSC had advised No 10 not to allow Jenrick to publicise the shipment in case it backfired, but was overruled."

[martin_p]

Why the assumption that I'm obsessed with the highest?

As for looking "at all the reasons why"?

That's exactly what I'm saying!

Excess deaths will be a key determining factor for instance.

A consistent way that deaths are attributed to Covid 19

Obesity.

Rates of diabetes.

Ethnic make up of population.

Age demographics.

Population densities.

Poverty.

Whether a country had already experienced similar epidemics like MERS or SARS and had infrastructure already in place which certain countries have.

Whether or not a colder/warmer climate helps or hinders the contagious nature of this new virus.

Whether having global international hub, (LONDON) through which 1000s of people from all over the world pass through on a daily basis, is a disadvantage.

Rates of single occupancy homes

Rates of multiple occupancy homes

But when, and only when, the scientists and the statisticians have all the relevant information, to hand. And that will be quite some time yet, can an objective and fair assessment of all governments around the worlds handling of the pandemic be made.


One things for certain, I doubt if anyone who posts on here has all the relevant data. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they haven't. Why? Because it's an ongoing pandemic and scientists are still learning about covid 19.

One wonders whether Wrongo (or indeed the government) would be taking this stance if our figures were more like Germany’s than Spain and Italy’s. I think we all know the answer to that.

[NottsClaret]

This on the BBC this morning:

"Researchers from Stanford University in the US have been trying to count the risk another way - equating it to that which we face from dying while driving. In the UK, they calculate that those under the age of 65 have faced the same risk over the past few months from coronavirus as they would have faced from driving 185 miles a day - the equivalent of commuting from Swindon to London."

Doesn't feel that way, does it? Although of course you can't pass on a car crash to your nan. But still strange how your perception of risk gets distorted.

[Grumps]

The Spanish death count is higher??

Possibly, because there's doubt Spain, Italy, France etc are including care homes etc

[jackmiggins]

Could have told you about the turks (no capital for obvious reasons). Fuming in Athens!!!

[martin_p]

Mad how many people see this pandemic an excuse to implement communism (universal basic income and nationalise everything)
Each to their own like

Mad that someone would think that’s communism.

[Claret-On-A-T-Rex]

One wonders whether Wrongo (or indeed the government) would be taking this stance if our figures were more like Germany’s than Spain and Italy’s. I think we all know the answer to that.

Watching people tie themselves in knots to defend a government and prime minister who is literally a joke, an idiot voted in by idiots and now proving to be ineffectual and dangerously inept and lazy is unbelievable.

The government ordered 400,000 ppe sets for health workers (seeing as we didn't have enough) and they all have to be sent back as they aren't fit for purpose meaning not only do we still not have enough, we now have less and the job of sourcing them has to start again.

This leaves the incredibly heroic health workers in the **** again but people on here are actually looking to find some quirk or loophole that justifies defending this moron.

[Spijed]

This on the BBC this morning:

"Researchers from Stanford University in the US have been trying to count the risk another way - equating it to that which we face from dying while driving. In the UK, they calculate that those under the age of 65 have faced the same risk over the past few months from coronavirus as they would have faced from driving 185 miles a day - the equivalent of commuting from Swindon to London."

Doesn't feel that way, does it? Although of course you can't pass on a car crash to your nan. But still strange how your perception of risk gets distorted.

The perception of risk has probably been distorted because although your no more likely to die if you are fit and healthy, it may be the fact that you are more likely to need hospital treatment (severe breathing difficulties), even if the survival rates are the same.

[Devils_Advocate]

A piece around the politics of Brexit and its link to Covid. Just an opinion piece but one that reflects and articulates my view quite well

Thread (by Nick Tolhurst)

What many people still don’t get:

The UK’s horrific response & highest European death toll from Coronavirus wasn’t just made more likely by Brexit......It was the inevitable result of it.

When Brexit happened the UKs COVID disaster was pre-programmed.

Here’s why.

Contrary to popular opinion politicians & the institutions/media that police them, place a high stock on truth - spin, cutting corners, exaggerations are allowed - but blatant lies had consequences.

Don’t believe me?
..ask Boris Johnson he was sacked as minister for lying..

For most western democracies in post war era, politics was a “battle of ideas”, then a “battle of competency” between centre right Vs centre left in a “market for voters” policed by media.

Even the rather more “rightist” Margaret Thatcher wanted to “win the argument”.

Spin/exaggeration was allowed, but “caught” blatantly lying a minister & even officials had to suffer the consequences.

One only has to think what happened to Blair - later found to have committed a clear egregious lie - he’s spent decades trying to salvage his reputation..

Political debate was like a CV - you could exaggerate, you could omit but it had to be within “the margins of truth”.

With Brexit tho the post war consensus of heavy, even aggressive debate within margin of truth ended. The institutions capitulated. Much of media likewise.

The great political game of debate to convince others collapses. Theresa May tried to finesse it - but her demise was inevitable.

And here’s the crucial point once “blatant lies” have no consequence- you create a disincentive to debate along the old lines of politics.

So...If demise of the old political understanding of politics died with Brexit only 1 thing could replace it - a commitment by all those who support the govt - incl ministers - to be prepared to support it on the “understanding” that meant no return to accountable debate in media.

But if a commitment to unaccountability is agreed how do govts prove their competency - indeed how could competency even be discussed in a political environment with no objective measure of fact or truth & much of media no longer remotely interested in it?

The brutal fact is:

Competence is a consequence of politicians & govts being held to account by (even fearing) institutions & media who have an active interest & incentive in uncovering lies, inconsistencies & falsehoods - not by the “natural brilliance” of a politician.

Don’t believe me?

Just go on YouTube/BBC & look at old public debates - you may not like Thatcher or Tony Benn but they had to play within the rules, to argue, yes even spin but they had to know the facts & deploy them.

Johnson merely repeated the Leave campaign in govt.

So as Coronavirus struck - we had a PM in power due to nationalist “feeling”, uninterested in facts, surrounded by people chosen purely on loyalty to a fact free project with no incentive for honesty, transparency or competence.

What did you think was going to happen?

[martin_p]

A piece around the politics of Brexit and its link to Covid. Just an opinion piece but one that reflects and articulates my view quite well

Thread (by Nick Tolhurst)

What many people still don’t get:

The UK’s horrific response & highest European death toll from Coronavirus wasn’t just made more likely by Brexit......It was the inevitable result of it.

When Brexit happened the UKs COVID disaster was pre-programmed.

Here’s why.

Contrary to popular opinion politicians & the institutions/media that police them, place a high stock on truth - spin, cutting corners, exaggerations are allowed - but blatant lies had consequences.

Don’t believe me?
..ask Boris Johnson he was sacked as minister for lying..

For most western democracies in post war era, politics was a “battle of ideas”, then a “battle of competency” between centre right Vs centre left in a “market for voters” policed by media.

Even the rather more “rightist” Margaret Thatcher wanted to “win the argument”.

Spin/exaggeration was allowed, but “caught” blatantly lying a minister & even officials had to suffer the consequences.

One only has to think what happened to Blair - later found to have committed a clear egregious lie - he’s spent decades trying to salvage his reputation..

Political debate was like a CV - you could exaggerate, you could omit but it had to be within “the margins of truth”.

With Brexit tho the post war consensus of heavy, even aggressive debate within margin of truth ended. The institutions capitulated. Much of media likewise.

The great political game of debate to convince others collapses. Theresa May tried to finesse it - but her demise was inevitable.

And here’s the crucial point once “blatant lies” have no consequence- you create a disincentive to debate along the old lines of politics.

So...If demise of the old political understanding of politics died with Brexit only 1 thing could replace it - a commitment by all those who support the govt - incl ministers - to be prepared to support it on the “understanding” that meant no return to accountable debate in media.

But if a commitment to unaccountability is agreed how do govts prove their competency - indeed how could competency even be discussed in a political environment with no objective measure of fact or truth & much of media no longer remotely interested in it?

The brutal fact is:

Competence is a consequence of politicians & govts being held to account by (even fearing) institutions & media who have an active interest & incentive in uncovering lies, inconsistencies & falsehoods - not by the “natural brilliance” of a politician.

Don’t believe me?

Just go on YouTube/BBC & look at old public debates - you may not like Thatcher or Tony Benn but they had to play within the rules, to argue, yes even spin but they had to know the facts & deploy them.

Johnson merely repeated the Leave campaign in govt.

So as Coronavirus struck - we had a PM in power due to nationalist “feeling”, uninterested in facts, surrounded by people chosen purely on loyalty to a fact free project with no incentive for honesty, transparency or competence.

What did you think was going to happen?

Lots won’t buy that I’m afraid. Every time I mention that fact that lying in government has become endemic over the last five years I hear choruses of ‘politicians have always lied’. The article above sums up perfectly where we are with truth in politics today and outlines how lying has become normalised. It’s an incredibly sad state of affairs and a poor reflection of large sections of the British media and public.

[Devils_Advocate]

Lots won’t buy that I’m afraid. Every time I mention that fact that lying in government has become endemic over the last five years I hear choruses of ‘politicians have always lied’. The article above sums up perfectly where we are with truth in politics today and outlines how lying has become normalised. It’s an incredibly sad state of affairs and a poor reflection of large sections of the British media and public.

Of course they wont and Im not trying to convice them nor am I bothered about discussing it with them. I just found it and interesting piece which I thought others on here may also appreciate and enjoy reading

[Spijed]

Lots won’t buy that I’m afraid. Every time I mention that fact that lying in government has become endemic over the last five years I hear choruses of ‘politicians have always lied’. The article above sums up perfectly where we are with truth in politics today and outlines how lying has become normalised. It’s an incredibly sad state of affairs and a poor reflection of large sections of the British media and public.

Add to the fact that they lie, many don't care about the death toll either.

[TheFamilyCat]

One wonders whether Wrongo (or indeed the government) would be taking this stance if our figures were more like Germany’s than Spain and Italy’s. I think we all know the answer to that.

Or if a party he didn't vote for was in government.

[FactualFrank]

This on the BBC this morning:

"Researchers from Stanford University in the US have been trying to count the risk another way - equating it to that which we face from dying while driving. In the UK, they calculate that those under the age of 65 have faced the same risk over the past few months from coronavirus as they would have faced from driving 185 miles a day - the equivalent of commuting from Swindon to London."

Doesn't feel that way, does it? Although of course you can't pass on a car crash to your nan. But still strange how your perception of risk gets distorted.

Also, you don't feel ill with driving that distance with having to take 2-3 weeks off work to recover. Falling ill, going to hospital and recovering, would need to be included too.

[martin_p]

A good article the other day which you may want to consider:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... -countries

Tweet from David Spiegelhalter (author of the article above) yesterday after Boris Johnson had also referred to this article in PM’s question time,

‘ Polite request to PM and others: please stop using my Guardian article to claim we cannot make any international comparisons yet. I refer only to detailed league tables-of course we should now use other countries to try and learn why our numbers are high’

[NottsClaret]

Also, you don't feel ill with driving that distance with having to take 2-3 weeks off work to recover. Falling ill, going to hospital and recovering, would need to be included too.

Yup, it's obviously quite a nasty virus. Just trying to get a bit of balance now that we're not trying to scare everyone into staying indoors forever. We're all going to have to go out soon, it's worth remembering it's not the bubonic plague. If you're not obese, over 65 and unwell already you're overwhelmingly likely going to be alright. It's ok to be ill for a bit.

In summary, it's worse than flu, it's not ebola.

[aggi]

I havent had time to read what the Treasury Select Committee has had to say to be honest.

However, I'd be very surprised if theyd said, "we believe its entirely appropriate and fair to use raw mortality rates to draw conclusions and judgements on the UK government's handling of the 2020 Coronavirus pandemic crisis. Even before the said crisis has actually ended"

But if you post a link to them saying that, because that really would then be them not "really agreeing with my approach," as you claim.

Well they directly compared the UK to another country which is one of the things you've been complaining about.

Although are you trying to suggest that the only critique you've had of other people's posts has been when they've used raw mortality rates to draw conclusions and judgements on the UK government's handling of the 2020 Coronavirus pandemic crisis? If that is the case then rather than the accusations of you using multiple usernames, I think the suggestion that multiple users are using your username would be more accurate.

[taio]

Tweet from David Spiegelhalter (author of the article above) yesterday after Boris Johnson had also referred to this article in PM’s question time,

‘ Polite request to PM and others: please stop using my Guardian article to claim we cannot make any international comparisons yet. I refer only to detailed league tables-of course we should now use other countries to try and learn why our numbers are high’

Yes, widely viewed by experts that league tables are misleading because not comparing like with like.

Daily comparisons are still important providing individual countries report themselves on a consistent basis, which I believe they, so we know trends and can learn any lessons now.

I note you didn't quote my post containing that article until now because you think it has been discredited...by the person who wrote it

[martin_p]

Yes, widely viewed by experts that league tables are misleading because not comparing like with like.

Daily comparisons are still important providing individual countries report themselves on a consistent basis, which I believe they, so we know trends and can learn any lessons now.

I note you didn't quote my post containing that article until now because you think it has been discredited...by the person who wrote it

Not discredited, clarified.

[taio]

Not discredited, clarified.

Yes league tables aren't helpful or accurate which was my original point.

[aggi]

This on the BBC this morning:

"Researchers from Stanford University in the US have been trying to count the risk another way - equating it to that which we face from dying while driving. In the UK, they calculate that those under the age of 65 have faced the same risk over the past few months from coronavirus as they would have faced from driving 185 miles a day - the equivalent of commuting from Swindon to London."

Doesn't feel that way, does it? Although of course you can't pass on a car crash to your nan. But still strange how your perception of risk gets distorted.

Also bear in mind that Americans are terrible drivers on the whole. I'm always amazed at the number of drivers reversing down highways or swerving across five lanes of traffic when I'm over there.

[jackmiggins]

Could we possibly stop ‘quoting’ other messages please? These are generally pffff and far too tedious to read through. If you have a feeling to discourse, just post it please. Stay safe.

[AndrewJB]

Mad how many people see this pandemic an excuse to implement communism (universal basic income and nationalise everything)
Each to their own like

If at some point the government introduce a UBI - because their extremely flawed set up doesn’t cover everyone, but everyone needs to eat - then I look forward to you railing at what a commie Johnson is (or more likely how amazing he is for looking outside his limited rightwing toolbox).

[Colburn_Claret]

I'm so glad I've avoided this thread like the plague.
The usual muppets,making the usual soundbites.

Truth is whatever you want to believe, so anything anti government, or anything pro government for that matter, gets jumped on as fact. It's all hillocks. We won't know the truth of this Covid19 for years. Hindsight may well be illuminating for the success or failure of the government, but nobody not even them has a clue. Its all opinion based, and that is all they and us can go on.
Comparisons with other countries is again pointless, because every country counts these things differently. Add to that the different demographics of age, population concentrations, commuting distances for work, pre lockdown. There are so many parts to this equation, and some of the parts haven't even been recognised yet.
There's a suggestion this morning that it could be more harmful to ethnic minorities, this could possibly tie in to why a country like Sweden, which has avoided lockdown, has suffered comparatively less than the rest of Europe. They also enjoy a healthier life style, again a possible contributing factor.
In this day and age of mass media hysterics, where everything has to be played out in a giant spotlight, we should look to the past and see what a danger that could be.
Churchill would have been slaughtered for the embarrassing failure of Dunkirk.
Parliament would have had to decide whether to launch the Normandy Landings whilst all the while the Germans listened in.
We all want to live in an open society, but we have a responsibility, as do the press, to avoid these meaningless knee jerk reactions, whether the government is right or wrong, which won't unfold for years, we need to pull together, support each other, and support the government. And not because its Boris, or the Tories, but because in times of trouble its all you can do.

[Volvoclaret]

Well said Colburn. Most sensible post on here.

[AndrewJB]

I'm so glad I've avoided this thread like the plague.
The usual muppets,making the usual soundbites.

Truth is whatever you want to believe, so anything anti government, or anything pro government for that matter, gets jumped on as fact. It's all hillocks. We won't know the truth of this Covid19 for years. Hindsight may well be illuminating for the success or failure of the government, but nobody not even them has a clue. Its all opinion based, and that is all they and us can go on.
Comparisons with other countries is again pointless, because every country counts these things differently. Add to that the different demographics of age, population concentrations, commuting distances for work, pre lockdown. There are so many parts to this equation, and some of the parts haven't even been recognised yet.
There's a suggestion this morning that it could be more harmful to ethnic minorities, this could possibly tie in to why a country like Sweden, which has avoided lockdown, has suffered comparatively less than the rest of Europe. They also enjoy a healthier life style, again a possible contributing factor.
In this day and age of mass media hysterics, where everything has to be played out in a giant spotlight, we should look to the past and see what a danger that could be.
Churchill would have been slaughtered for the embarrassing failure of Dunkirk.
Parliament would have had to decide whether to launch the Normandy Landings whilst all the while the Germans listened in.
We all want to live in an open society, but we have a responsibility, as do the press, to avoid these meaningless knee jerk reactions, whether the government is right or wrong, which won't unfold for years, we need to pull together, support each other, and support the government. And not because its Boris, or the Tories, but because in times of trouble its all you can do.

If - as I contend - the government is the main problem here, and we’d be able to fight the virus better if they resigned and a new more serious government took over. A government of national unity perhaps, as happened during the period of time you evoke (WW2), then we absolutely do need to be talking about the government, and getting behind them - which I presume you mean not criticising them - is only going to make things worse. Supporting the government is like asking for more failure.

[keith1879]

I'm so glad I've avoided this thread like the plague.
The usual muppets,making the usual soundbites.

Truth is whatever you want to believe, so anything anti government, or anything pro government for that matter, gets jumped on as fact. It's all hillocks. We won't know the truth of this Covid19 for years. Hindsight may well be illuminating for the success or failure of the government, but nobody not even them has a clue. Its all opinion based, and that is all they and us can go on.
Comparisons with other countries is again pointless, because every country counts these things differently. Add to that the different demographics of age, population concentrations, commuting distances for work, pre lockdown. There are so many parts to this equation, and some of the parts haven't even been recognised yet.
There's a suggestion this morning that it could be more harmful to ethnic minorities, this could possibly tie in to why a country like Sweden, which has avoided lockdown, has suffered comparatively less than the rest of Europe. They also enjoy a healthier life style, again a possible contributing factor.
In this day and age of mass media hysterics, where everything has to be played out in a giant spotlight, we should look to the past and see what a danger that could be.
Churchill would have been slaughtered for the embarrassing failure of Dunkirk.
Parliament would have had to decide whether to launch the Normandy Landings whilst all the while the Germans listened in.
We all want to live in an open society, but we have a responsibility, as do the press, to avoid these meaningless knee jerk reactions, whether the government is right or wrong, which won't unfold for years, we need to pull together, support each other, and support the government. And not because its Boris, or the Tories, but because in times of trouble its all you can do.

Point of information.....in terms of deaths per million of population Sweden has been quite badly hit. Natherlands (Just), France, UK, Spain, Italy and Belgium are all worse but I think that every other notable European country has a better figure than Sweden at present.

[dsr]

If - as I contend - the government is the main problem here, and we’d be able to fight the virus better if they resigned and a new more serious government took over. A government of national unity perhaps, as happened during the period of time you evoke (WW2), then we absolutely do need to be talking about the government, and getting behind them - which I presume you mean not criticising them - is only going to make things worse. Supporting the government is like asking for more failure.

I'd argue that coronavirus is the main problem here.

[Grumps]

If - as I contend - the government is the main problem here, and we’d be able to fight the virus better if they resigned and a new more serious government took over. A government of national unity perhaps, as happened during the period of time you evoke (WW2), then we absolutely do need to be talking about the government, and getting behind them - which I presume you mean not criticising them - is only going to make things worse. Supporting the government is like asking for more failure.

Do you believe that? Or is it just something you've been brainwashed with?

So, in the middle of a major national emergency, we change the government? What happens whilst this is taking place? Does the virus very kindly stop for a few weeks whilst things are being put in place? Bring in people who have had no involvement so far? And everything would be fine?

[Damo]

If at some point the government introduce a UBI - because their extremely flawed set up doesn’t cover everyone, but everyone needs to eat - then I look forward to you railing at what a commie Johnson is (or more likely how amazing he is for looking outside his limited rightwing toolbox).

I can quite understand you thinking that may happen, given how indoctrinated you are to the Corbyn movement.
I wont blindly defend a politician though. I've already criticised the government on here for the way they have allowed people to cross our borders unchecked.
I've grudgingly accepted the lockdown, but I think it's pointless now and time to start lifting restrictions.
The only reason it's still going on is because Johnson is trying to appease to bedwetters.

Have you managed to accept any criticism of your dear leader yet?

[Damo]

I know. Crazy how some people would rather be socialists than dead. Each to their own I guess.

Aye, the government controlling every part of your day to day life is going to save us all.
Cant see any issue at all with your master plan

[Damo]

A piece around the politics of Brexit and its link to Covid. Just an opinion piece but one that reflects and articulates my view quite well

Thread (by Nick Tolhurst)

What many people still don’t get:

The UK’s horrific response & highest European death toll from Coronavirus wasn’t just made more likely by Brexit......It was the inevitable result of it.

When Brexit happened the UKs COVID disaster was pre-programmed.

Here’s why.

Contrary to popular opinion politicians & the institutions/media that police them, place a high stock on truth - spin, cutting corners, exaggerations are allowed - but blatant lies had consequences.

Don’t believe me?
..ask Boris Johnson he was sacked as minister for lying..

For most western democracies in post war era, politics was a “battle of ideas”, then a “battle of competency” between centre right Vs centre left in a “market for voters” policed by media.

Even the rather more “rightist” Margaret Thatcher wanted to “win the argument”.

Spin/exaggeration was allowed, but “caught” blatantly lying a minister & even officials had to suffer the consequences.

One only has to think what happened to Blair - later found to have committed a clear egregious lie - he’s spent decades trying to salvage his reputation..

Political debate was like a CV - you could exaggerate, you could omit but it had to be within “the margins of truth”.

With Brexit tho the post war consensus of heavy, even aggressive debate within margin of truth ended. The institutions capitulated. Much of media likewise.

The great political game of debate to convince others collapses. Theresa May tried to finesse it - but her demise was inevitable.

And here’s the crucial point once “blatant lies” have no consequence- you create a disincentive to debate along the old lines of politics.

So...If demise of the old political understanding of politics died with Brexit only 1 thing could replace it - a commitment by all those who support the govt - incl ministers - to be prepared to support it on the “understanding” that meant no return to accountable debate in media.

But if a commitment to unaccountability is agreed how do govts prove their competency - indeed how could competency even be discussed in a political environment with no objective measure of fact or truth & much of media no longer remotely interested in it?

The brutal fact is:

Competence is a consequence of politicians & govts being held to account by (even fearing) institutions & media who have an active interest & incentive in uncovering lies, inconsistencies & falsehoods - not by the “natural brilliance” of a politician.

Don’t believe me?

Just go on YouTube/BBC & look at old public debates - you may not like Thatcher or Tony Benn but they had to play within the rules, to argue, yes even spin but they had to know the facts & deploy them.

Johnson merely repeated the Leave campaign in govt.

So as Coronavirus struck - we had a PM in power due to nationalist “feeling”, uninterested in facts, surrounded by people chosen purely on loyalty to a fact free project with no incentive for honesty, transparency or competence.

What did you think was going to happen?

This is what happens when you get a full moon during a lockdown

[tiger76]

All 400,000 gowns flown from Turkey for NHS fail UK standards.

The latest sorry clusterfuck from the worst prime minister in history...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -standards

OH! good you've found the right thread,i may not agree with you on many things,but the PPE has been a total F**kup from the start,and it's this that will likely cost Hancock has job as HS,someone will have to be a sacrificial lamb,to ensure the government saves face.

If the gowns aren't up to standard,then it's right not to use them,but this isn't much help to the hard-pressed front-line workers,the supply to hospitals is improving,but the care sector and GP'S are still having difficulties.This is what happens when you aren't proactive in the beginning,your always playing catch-up,and with the worldwide demand for PPE it's always going to be harder to procure decent equipment in a competitive market.

The government claim they have other options with domestic firms to make PPE,that's as maybe,but where's the urgency this situation demands,i don't detect any.

[dsr]

OH! good you've found the right thread,i may not agree with you on many things,but the PPE has been a total F**kup from the start,and it's this that will likely cost Hancock has job as HS,someone will have to be a sacrificial lamb,to ensure the government saves face.

If the gowns aren't up to standard,then it's right not to use them,but this isn't much help to the hard-pressed front-line workers,the supply to hospitals is improving,but the care sector and GP'S are still having difficulties.This is what happens when you aren't proactive in the beginning,your always playing catch-up,and with the worldwide demand for PPE it's always going to be harder to procure decent equipment in a competitive market.

The government claim they have other options with domestic firms to make PPE,that's as maybe,but where's the urgency this situation demands,i don't detect any.

I'm not sure it would be fair to blame Boris for the 400,000 surgical gowns anyway. Obviously as prime minister he is ultimately responsible, but as they were ordered while he was in hospital I don't think it could reasonably be expected that he would have taken personal responsibility for the order.

[AndrewJB]

Do you believe that? Or is it just something you've been brainwashed with?

So, in the middle of a major national emergency, we change the government? What happens whilst this is taking place? Does the virus very kindly stop for a few weeks whilst things are being put in place? Bring in people who have had no involvement so far? And everything would be fine?

Of course I believe it. I wrote it. Other people appear to believe it as well:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... servatives

Colburn suggested we all have to get behind the government as we did during the war. I’m pointing out that the Tory government was replaced by a national unity one eight months in to the war. That would be a massive step forward in my opinion, because there are too many useless people in the current government. They’re more interested in stopping doctors and nurses being critical on social media than they are supplying the same with PPE.

Speaking of brainwashed, do you agree with the Sun that when Johnson was ill, that was the country’s “darkest hour”?

[Grumps]

Of course I believe it. I wrote it. Other people appear to believe it as well:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... servatives

Colburn suggested we all have to get behind the government as we did during the war. I’m pointing out that the Tory government was replaced by a national unity one eight months in to the war. That would be a massive step forward in my opinion, because there are too many useless people in the current government. They’re more interested in stopping doctors and nurses being critical on social media than they are supplying the same with PPE.

Speaking of brainwashed, do you agree with the Sun that when Johnson was ill, that was the country’s “darkest hour”?

I've never mentioned anything about the PMs illness

Are you not going to answer the questions

[tiger76]

I'm not sure it would be fair to blame Boris for the 400,000 surgical gowns anyway. Obviously as prime minister he is ultimately responsible, but as they were ordered while he was in hospital I don't think it could reasonably be expected that he would have taken personal responsibility for the order.

I didn't blame Boris,i just want the supplies to get to the staff who are putting their lives on the line,i don't care who oversees it,just get it done ASAP.

I still think Hancock will be hung out to dry in the next reshuffle,he's a prime candidate as the HS to take the burden of blame,whether that's fair is for others to decide,but someone in the cabinet has to be held accountable for these failings.That's not to say PHE are immune from criticism,they have searching questions to answer once the pandemic is over.

[AndrewJB]

I can quite understand you thinking that may happen, given how indoctrinated you are to the Corbyn movement.
I wont blindly defend a politician though. I've already criticised the government on here for the way they have allowed people to cross our borders unchecked.
I've grudgingly accepted the lockdown, but I think it's pointless now and time to start lifting restrictions.
The only reason it's still going on is because Johnson is trying to appease to bedwetters.

Have you managed to accept any criticism of your dear leader yet?

The party I belong to, the one I pay a monthly subscription to has two leaders. Of which do you refer?

I thought Johnson was following the best scientific advice. Now you’re telling me he’s not doing that but appeasing bedwetters. What is the current scientific advice? And if it’s to continue the lockdown, why would you want to go against it? The last is a genuine question.

[AndrewJB]

I've never mentioned anything about the PMs illness

Are you not going to answer the questions

We changed government eight months into WW2 (which didn’t stop), so yes I think it would be a move in the right direction, and no I don’t think it would cause any issues.

[dsr]

I didn't blame Boris,i just want the supplies to get to the staff who are putting their lives on the line,i don't care who oversees it,just get it done ASAP.

I still think Hancock will be hung out to dry in the next reshuffle,he's a prime candidate as the HS to take the burden of blame,whether that's fair is for others to decide,but someone in the cabinet has to be held accountable for these failings.That's not to say PHE are immune from criticism,they have searching questions to answer once the pandemic is over.

You didn't, but the dinosaur you were responding to did. Sorry, I could have made that clearer.

[Colburn_Claret]

If - as I contend - the government is the main problem here, and we’d be able to fight the virus better if they resigned and a new more serious government took over. A government of national unity perhaps, as happened during the period of time you evoke (WW2), then we absolutely do need to be talking about the government, and getting behind them - which I presume you mean not criticising them - is only going to make things worse. Supporting the government is like asking for more failure.

The problem is Andrew, as you missed again, is that you contend. So what, you don't know, nobody does, and all that yours, or the medias, contentions do, is spread misinformation and anxiety to the masses. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, only that you don't know. Neither do they. There is so much we don't understand yet about this virus, and jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game.
It also isn't helpful when everyone on this board knows that if Corbyn had been in charge, and made exactly the same decisions, it would have been fine.

[Spijed]

When data is shared globally I doubt any other country will be able to take any positives from the way we have conducted our testing to date.

It's something we can't say we have done well as it has seemed a bit pointless at times, testing for testings sake.

[martin_p]

The problem is Andrew, as you missed again, is that you contend. So what, you don't know, nobody does, and all that yours, or the medias, contentions do, is spread misinformation and anxiety to the masses. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, only that you don't know. Neither do they. There is so much we don't understand yet about this virus, and jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game.
It also isn't helpful when everyone on this board knows that if Corbyn had been in charge, and made exactly the same decisions, it would have been fine.

What is this misinformation that Andrew is spreading?

[AndrewJB]

The problem is Andrew, as you missed again, is that you contend. So what, you don't know, nobody does, and all that yours, or the medias, contentions do, is spread misinformation and anxiety to the masses. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, only that you don't know. Neither do they. There is so much we don't understand yet about this virus, and jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game.
It also isn't helpful when everyone on this board knows that if Corbyn had been in charge, and made exactly the same decisions, it would have been fine.

I think we can level criticism at this juncture, because the same party has been in power for ten years, and the country was woefully unprepared. We don’t need time to process those facts.

As for how a Corbyn government would have acted: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thelon ... 05/05/amp/

[Spijed]

There is so much we don't understand yet about this virus, and jumping to conclusions is a dangerous game.

And yet the government completely dismissed advice and any understanding gained by other countries that started to see casualties rise in the two weeks or so before cases started to grow in the UK.

The government simply treated any scientific evidence from Italy with utter contempt in the early stages!

[Damo]

The party I belong to, the one I pay a monthly subscription to has two leaders. Of which do you refer?

I thought Johnson was following the best scientific advice. Now you’re telling me he’s not doing that but appeasing bedwetters. What is the current scientific advice? And if it’s to continue the lockdown, why would you want to go against it? The last is a genuine question.

I cant think of a political party with 2 leaders. And going off your blind defence of everything Jeremy Corbyn and momentum, I just assumed you supported them.

With regards to the lockdown. That should have been implemented (harder than we did it) for a short period while measures were put into place for people to work in a safe manner, and to give the NHS chance to prep for what was coming.
What we have now is half of the country on an extended, fully paid holiday while the rest of us go to work.
Keeping the current lockdown going isnt achieving anything. I went to asda today and it was packed with people buying all sorts of rubbish. B&Q is full of people buying garden furniture and hot tubs. It's pointless closing small businesses and allowing superstores to carry on like they are with a few small, pointless measures in place.
It's time to get back to normal and concentrate on shielding the vulnerable