Covid-19

[Grumps]

Ah yes, obviously. Apologies, I missed the part where we had been using it for months since the outbreak started

They used it in March, tracing those who'd been in contact with anyone from Northern Italy as well as certain parts of China, but then got overwhelmed so naturally stopped.

[UnderSeige]

Yes the death rate isn't dropping there was a period of 3-4 days when it appeared to be, but then it's crept up again, the comparable European countries in my view would be France, Germany, Italy and Spain they're roughly around the UK population wise, and yet we appear to be struggling to get a grip from our peak, whereas those 4 all have, what's worrying is if we can't get a grip during lockdown then what'll occur when lockdown is slowly eased.

One way of looking at it, for comparison is 'deaths per million of the population'.
Belgium is top of the list by far. Todays figures show the following:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
(Note: this is a small selection of countries from the entire list. I have chosen countries which you would expect to produce reliable data and also countries that have some sort of similarities to the UK e.g. culture, democracies, large cities and urban areas etc).

Belgium.... 816
UK...........566
Italy.........551
Spain........580
France......441
Sweden.....435
USA.........318 (Much lower than the UK)
Germany.. 103
Canada.....118
Austria.......74
Norway ......44
Australia......4
New Zealand.4 (Very early lockdown https://www.politico.eu/article/kiwis-v ... ons-rules/
Singapore.....4
Hong Kong....0.5 (No complete lockdown https://www.contagionlive.com/news/how- ... -lockdown-
S Korea.......5 (No lockdown https://english.alarabiya.net/en/featu ... to-follow-)

[Zlatan]

They used it in March, tracing those who'd been in contact with anyone from Northern Italy as well as certain parts of China, but then got overwhelmed so naturally stopped.

I’m really not trying to pick a fight but the issue is that we’re being told it’s a fantastic system and all I want to know is why if that’s the case, why was it halted?

It’s OK - I know the answer, it’s because of government incompetence - I’m just seeing how many people want to defend the indefensible again.

[tiger76]

One way of looking at it, for comparison is 'deaths per million of the population'.
Belgium is top of the list by far. Todays figures show the following:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
(Note: this is a small selection of countries from the entire list. I have chosen countries which you would expect to produce reliable data and also countries that have some sort of similarities to the UK e.g. culture, democracies, large cities and urban areas etc).

Belgium.... 816
UK...........566
Italy.........551
Spain........580
France......441
Sweden.....435
USA.........318 (Much lower than the UK)
Germany.. 103
Canada.....118
Austria.......74
Norway ......44
Australia......4
New Zealand.4 (Very early lockdown https://www.politico.eu/article/kiwis-v ... ons-rules/
Singapore.....4
Hong Kong....0.5 (No complete lockdown https://www.contagionlive.com/news/how- ... -lockdown-
S Korea.......5 (No lockdown https://english.alarabiya.net/en/featu ... to-follow-)

Whichever measure you use the UK doesn't fare well,now it might be that once all the stats are collated in the coming months we'll fare better,but i have grave doubts if that will prove to be the case. And if our death rate doesn't dramatically slow we could well overtake Spain by this measure soon. So however the government try to spin it surely even they can't claim it's been a success.

[UnderSeige]

Iran looks to be entering a second wave of the virus. They came out of lockdown in April.

30/03/20....3,186 new cases
10/04/20....1,972 new cases
02/05/20.......802 new cases
06/05/20....1,680 new cases
29/05/20....2,819 new cases
Source: Wikipedia

https://thebulletin.org/2020/05/irans-c ... ot-to-do/#

[jackmiggins]

They used it in March, tracing those who'd been in contact with anyone from Northern Italy as well as certain parts of China, but then got overwhelmed so naturally stopped.

Not quite sure why ‘naturally we stopped’ is acceptable?

[tiger76]

Coronavirus: Centenarians recovering from the virus

Scientists have said coronavirus affects the elderly population more than any other age group. But amid the stories of suffering, there have also been rays of hope. BBC News hears from three centenarians who have survived Covid-19.

Among the many patients who left hospital in Derby after having had Covid-19 was Jane Collins, aged 104.

"She's survived two world wars, multiple recessions, and is still batting," said Ms Collins's great niece, Sarah Balmforth.

"She still likes the odd sip of champagne, which is what we think has preserved her for so long."

Ms Collins, who lives in the city, spent several weeks in hospital but has since returned to her care home to recover.

Ms Collins said she remained tired and breathless at times, but said: "I'm doing very well after the virus.

"The [care home] staff are looking after me very well."

Staff at the Royal Derby believe she was the oldest of their patients to survive after contracting Covid-19.

"When she was admitted, you do expect the worst because you hear so much about this virus," added Mrs Balmforth.

"But day after day she kept improving and a lot of that was down to the superb care she got.

"She's made of some stern stuff."

When 105-year-old Pat Aldridge, from Somerset, went into hospital with breathing difficulties, her family feared she may not survive.

But having been discharged from Taunton's Musgrove Park Hospital after five days, she said she felt "not too bad".

"In many ways, considering my age, I'm the lucky one," she said.

Her daughter Mary-Jane Yates said her symptoms came on "quite suddenly".

"There were times when we thought she wouldn't beat it at all," she said.

"After she went into hospital, the following morning she insisted on going to the toilet without help.

"That's what has got her through; she's an extremely determined lady."

Her doctor, Benedict Morris, said he initially thought Ms Aldridge's age was "a typo" but added: "Discharging her was a real high point."

The oldest British patient thought to have overcome coronavirus is 106-year-old Connie Titchen from Birmingham.

Charity Age UK said while the virus was "worrying" for over-70s with health conditions, some would only experience a mild illness and make a full recovery.

"We do know that older people are more likely to have a more severe form of the virus which is why there is that all-important advice to be extra careful," said Ruthe Isden, head of health and care at the charity.

"But there are a lot of examples of people, even in the older age groups, who are not seriously ill enough to need to go into hospital."

The charity said it was "still learning" about why the virus affected some older people so severely, while others experienced only mild symptoms.

"Why some are more affected than others is still a mystery," said Ms Isden.

Vera Beeley, 102, has returned to her care home in Sheffield having been treated in hospital.

And her first question was "When are all the pubs opening again?"

"Not that she'll be going," laughed her grandson Ian Whitehead.

"With her age, [it seemed as if] everything was against her. We thought this was going to get her, but luckily it didn't.

"We couldn't believe it - she's back to her normal self and she's back on form."

The great-grandmother of seven said she felt "all right".

"I don't feel poorly, it's just my body that is getting old," she said.

Like some of the other centenarians, she was also given a line of honour upon her discharge from hospital.

"They were all in a line - doctors and nurses - all clapping me as I came out in the wheelchair," she said. "It made me feel very proud."

These stories show that this isn't automatically a death sentence even for the elderly.

[Grumps]

I’m really not trying to pick a fight but the issue is that we’re being told it’s a fantastic system and all I want to know is why if that’s the case, why was it halted?

It’s OK - I know the answer, it’s because of government incompetence - I’m just seeing how many people want to defend the indefensible again.

It's because they didn't have enough staff for the number of cases. Would have been silly having 25,000 people sat on their backsides for years, just in case a pandemic came along, wouldn't it? Would that not be incompetence or of the highest order?

[Zlatan]

It's because they didn't have enough staff for the number of cases. Would have been silly having 25,000 people sat on their backsides for years, just in case a pandemic came along, wouldn't it? Would that not be incompetence or of the highest order?

Fair enough, it’s all about perspective isn’t it

[jackmiggins]

It's because they didn't have enough staff for the number of cases. Would have been silly having 25,000 people sat on their backsides for years, just in case a pandemic came along, wouldn't it? Would that not be incompetence or of the highest order?

Might have been called ‘planning’. Something completely alien to our politicians in Jan, Feb, March and April!

[Grumps]

Not quite sure why ‘naturally we stopped’ is acceptable?

As I've said above, we didn't have 25,000 tracers sat on their arses waiting for this to happen
When the numbers got too high they had to stop, naturally. Perhaps I should have said obviously instead.

[Devils_Advocate]

As I stated earlier I am in support of the track and trace strategy and how it is supposed to work. The issue for me is that it will only be as good as the leadership who run it, the people who manage and the volume of skilled and well trained employees who do the actual work

I mentioned a few days ago I was concerned with some if the first hand accounts I was hearing from those involved and todays story in the Gaurdian illustrates exactly what I was talking about

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... n-lockdown

The question for me isnt why we were not using this months ago but more around how quickly are we going to get it to an operational standard for it to have the positive impact we desperately need from it

[jackmiggins]

Heard you - did you understand what I said?

[martin_p]

The Cummings affair is damaging the Tories badly in the polls. People who think it’s leftie remainers alone who think Cummings should go need to look at these polls.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2 ... SApp_Other

[UnderSeige]

Whichever measure you use the UK doesn't fare well,now it might be that once all the stats are collated in the coming months we'll fare better,but i have grave doubts if that will prove to be the case. And if our death rate doesn't dramatically slow we could well overtake Spain by this measure soon. So however the government try to spin it surely even they can't claim it's been a success.

The UK fairs very badly. We are in the worst of both worlds. We are in a situation in which we are following the 'Ro number'. If it goes above 1 then restrictions are back on. If it stays below 1 then we are likely to release restrictions too early and end up with a second wave. The economy is going to be a complete 'basket case' if we are 'tooing and frowing' out of lockdown for the next year or so.

Looking at it with hindsight If we had implemented a system of 'track and trace' very early and restricted the borders along with somehow making face coverings used more widely (like Korea) we might have been able to keep the death rate down without going into lockdown. Although this is said in hindsight. In March, I was saying that it only effects a small proportion of the population and that it's only like the flue. How wrong I was.

I guess at the end of this, the media will be like a 'dog with a bone' right up until the next general election.

[UnderSeige]

The question for me isnt why we were not using this months ago but more around how quickly are we going to get it to an operational standard for it to have the positive impact we desperately need from it

That's the main question. The inquest can come later.

[Grumps]

The UK fairs very badly. We are in the worst of both worlds. We are in a situation in which we are following the 'Ro number'. If it goes above 1 then restrictions are back on. If it stays below 1 then we are likely to release restrictions too early and end up with a second wave. The economy is going to be a complete 'basket case' if we are 'tooing and frowing' out of lockdown for the next year or so.

Looking at it with hindsight If we had implemented a system of 'track and trace' very early and restricted the borders along with somehow making face coverings used more widely (like Korea) we might have been able to keep the death rate down without going into lockdown. Although this is said in hindsight. In March, I was saying that it only effects a small proportion of the population and that it's only like the flue. How wrong I was.

I guess at the end of this, the media will be like a 'dog with a bone' right up until the next general election.

Hindsight is wonderful, many, like you, never thought it would get as bad as it has. Just they haven't got the balls to admit it. Well said

[Zlatan]

Hindsight is wonderful, many, like you, never thought it would get as bad as it has. Just they haven't got the balls to admit it. Well said

I’ll admit I didn’t think it was going to be as serious as it had turned out. The thing is, and this is the crux of the matter, once it became serious in February I expected our government to be authoritative about things and take control to ensure that we did what was right for the people of this country. What has actually happened is there has been campaigns and rhetoric with no actual substance with so many people not taking notice of their responsibility probably because those in authority didn’t demonstrate and lead by example (we’ve done that to death haven’t we!) The result of which had resulted in the highest number of deaths in Europe.

Complacency or incompetence - I’m not sure which or a combination of both but like I said, that’s the crux of it.

[Bfcboyo]

I’ll admit I didn’t think it was going to be as serious as it had turned out. The thing is, and this is the crux of the matter, once it became serious in February I expected our government to be authoritative about things and take control to ensure that we did what was right for the people of this country. What has actually happened is there has been campaigns and rhetoric with no actual substance with so many people not taking notice of their responsibility probably because those in authority didn’t demonstrate and lead by example (we’ve done that to death haven’t we!) The result of which had resulted in the highest number of deaths in Europe.

Complacency or incompetence - I’m not sure which or a combination of both but like I said, that’s the crux of it.

People being people were never going to behave. In other countries they would have faced harsher penalties for breaching rules. How many in authority didn't lead by example to lead to the masses not following the rules?

The government were never going to do the right thing with 49% of the population against them. If they had been too strict people moan , too leniant trusting the people and guess what .

[Zlatan]

People being people were never going to behave. In other countries they would have faced harsher penalties for breaching rules. How many in authority didn't lead by example to lead to the masses not following the rules?

Shall I start with the PM shaking hands with Covid-19 patients?

[bfcjg]

No matter how they lie and try to squirm out of it Johnson's guru and string puller opted to go for herd immunity, the quote which he obviously denied "that so what if a few thousand pensioners die" should be put on bill boards before the next election.
The tories under Johnson are tainted, if they had of gone with Hunt this wouldn't be as bad. Ironic that the blue rinse brigade who got their Boris the top job were to become sacrificial lambs on Cummings instructions.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

No matter how they lie and try to squirm out of it Johnson's guru and string puller opted to go for herd immunity, the quote which he obviously denied "that so what if a few thousand pensioners die" should be put on bill boards before the next election.
The tories under Johnson are tainted, if they had of gone with Hunt this wouldn't be as bad. Ironic that the blue rinse brigade who got their Boris the top job were to become sacrificial lambs on Cummings instructions.

That quote could only be billboarded if its ever proven to be true, which it hasn't and probably never will be.

[Bfcboyo]

Shall I start with the PM shaking hands with Covid-19 patients?

Let's wait until it all pans out. I personally think they have handled it well per population against the size of England. And the after affect of people in poverty and missed cancer diagnosis etc etc . It's a balancing act.

[Spijed]

Let's wait until it all pans out. I personally think they have handled it well per population against the size of England. And the after affect of people in poverty and missed cancer diagnosis etc etc . It's a balancing act.

Sadly, we could have a million deaths and some will still say we've handled it well.

[bfcjg]

That quote could only be billboarded if its ever proven to be true, which it hasn't and probably never will be.

Why would it be made up ?

[bfcjg]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18325 ... e-too-bad/
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/polit ... isk/22/03/

[Bfcboyo]

Sadly, we could have a million deaths and some will still say we've handled it well.

I think we have been more honest than most other nations , even at the cost of poll ratings. How much do you want the government to give. The relief financially is unprecedented and they report every death remotely linked to Covid as Covid. You may prefer Siberia for a stretch to open your eyes.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Why would it be made up ?

Why would the media print something about someone they don't like using a vague source?

[MalaysiaMo]

Interesting perspective:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... the-pandem

"The U.K. and other onetime colonial powers did not turn to their former colonies or to the East for advice – although they should have. African and Asian countries have had far more experience dealing with infectious diseases like Ebola and SARS than the United States and the countries of Europe. But neocolonialism relies on the continued belief that former colonial rulers are superior in terms of expertise and societal values. Not only are such attitudes racist and xenophobic, they're illogical."

[jackmiggins]

Interesting perspective:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... the-pandem

"The U.K. and other onetime colonial powers did not turn to their former colonies or to the East for advice – although they should have. African and Asian countries have had far more experience dealing with infectious diseases like Ebola and SARS than the United States and the countries of Europe. But neocolonialism relies on the continued belief that former colonial rulers are superior in terms of expertise and societal values. Not only are such attitudes racist and xenophobic, they're illogical."

I must say, I believe there is much truth in this. I would also like to say that my own beliefs throughout this very sad period are, most definitely, not influenced or driven by any political beliefs. I have no affiliation with any political party - that eroded many moons ago.
It would possibly help our discussion on here if some wouldn’t barricade themselves behind their own political persuasions, as defensive rhetoric is rarely of any positive value.

[claretandy]

More Labour hypocrisy, labour mp breaks lockdown to get her leg over with married man.

https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status ... 59776?s=19

[jackmiggins]

I’d hate to think how many of our politicians have broken the rules - nothing about hypocrisy - they are generally of dubious character, ability and credence, whatever party they belong to at this particular time.

[Grumps]

I’ll admit I didn’t think it was going to be as serious as it had turned out. The thing is, and this is the crux of the matter, once it became serious in February I expected our government to be authoritative about things and take control to ensure that we did what was right for the people of this country. What has actually happened is there has been campaigns and rhetoric with no actual substance with so many people not taking notice of their responsibility probably because those in authority didn’t demonstrate and lead by example (we’ve done that to death haven’t we!) The result of which had resulted in the highest number of deaths in Europe.

Complacency or incompetence - I’m not sure which or a combination of both but like I said, that’s the crux of it.

I was bored this morning, so I read the start of this thread.
I got as far as the end of February
You were quite vocal throughout that time that it was no worse than flu, so when in February did it actually get serious?

Very few of the posters who are on here all the time now have yet to make an appearance by 28th Feb. Those that do, in the main, treat it as a joke.

Jackub, who started the thread obviously saw something, but was shouted down

Lowbankclaret was consistent with his message

Paulalty was predicting the end of the world, so he hasn't changed

But where were the rest of those who are now saying it was obvious from jan/Feb that it was a big problem,who was saying... all borders should be shut, everyone should stay indoors, the government should be doing more!!!

They weren't............ But with hindsight they do.

I don't have a problem looking back, and saying we could/should have done this better, or that quicker, but please let's not pretend we all had the answers back in Feb and it was just the government who didn't see it coming.

I've changed my view a few times, at first I was with Zlatan and it would be no worse than flu, and said that. When the deaths were touching a thousand a day I thought it was going to get worse. Now, if people keep to the social distancing it won't be as bad as I thought it would get then.

Iam off for my coffee now.

[jackmiggins]

Saw Matt Hancock giving his considered view!! My, he has an extremely slappable face. Quite obvious that we have no measures or standard procedures to deal with this. Advice is to self isolate. Might be a little over pessimistic, but I’d shut the borders to any travel from Eastern Asia??

Goodness Grumps, not sure it’s healthy to get too critical of posters? We don’t take this message board as a career choice, it’s just a useful way of venting feelings sometimes. Anyway, in the interest of consistency, thought I’d reacquaint from one of my earlier posts - Feb 8 2020!

[jackmiggins]

Big question ‘today’ seems to be reduction of the safe distance from 2m to 1m. My own view is that this will be driven by percentage risk. In reality, this is extremely low if the nearest person isn’t infected. However, if they are, then the risk is just as great.
Can this rule be reduced without an app based track and trace? Wouldn’t recommend it.

[Top Claret]

The main reason hospitals haven't been stretched is a lot of positive covid patients have been returned to their care homes,and lo and behold that led to an explosion in care home outbreaks.

I don't necessarily disagree with those that are fit and able returning to work,if they can hold garden parties/BBQ'S then they can return to the workplace.

The NHS have been sending patients back to care homes knowing full well that they have the Covid symptoms. The NHS as a lot to answer for and should be made accountable instead of passing the buck all the time.
My dealings with the NHS in the past as been mixed, when dealing with my deased parents. I have found the management on the words to be very poor, but A&E excellent.

[Grumps]

Goodness Grumps, not sure it’s healthy to get too critical of posters? We don’t take this message board as a career choice, it’s just a useful way of venting feelings sometimes. Anyway, in the interest of consistency, thought I’d reacquaint from one of my earlier posts - Feb 8 2020!

Don't get critical of posters, that's rich coming from you after some of the names you've called people
I haven't checked, and don't intend to, but your point that our borders should have been shut completely, from anywhere, at the start of march, when did you first voice that exact view? It's not being critical, it's just that this particular discussion is about hindsight, and I wondered if that view was a result of hindsight, or you suggested it beforehand.

[Top Claret]

Out walking yesterday and saw a gang of 6 young people in the country side socialising, near the end of my walk a large group gathered for a garden party.

We are one of the most democratic and free countries on earth and we are used to doing what we want when we want, social distancing is not working because the vast majority don't want it.

The vast majority can also see that Covid effects only the vunrable with underlying conditions such as obesity, diabetes etc. These people should be sensible and responsible and look after themselves by staying away from public places and let the rest of the country get on with their lives

[Zlatan]

I was bored this morning, so I read the start of this thread.
I got as far as the end of February
You were quite vocal throughout that time that it was no worse than flu, so when in February did it actually get serious?

Very few of the posters who are on here all the time now have yet to make an appearance by 28th Feb. Those that do, in the main, treat it as a joke.

Jackub, who started the thread obviously saw something, but was shouted down

Lowbankclaret was consistent with his message

Paulalty was predicting the end of the world, so he hasn't changed

But where were the rest of those who are now saying it was obvious from jan/Feb that it was a big problem,who was saying... all borders should be shut, everyone should stay indoors, the government should be doing more!!!

They weren't............ But with hindsight they do.

I don't have a problem looking back, and saying we could/should have done this better, or that quicker, but please let's not pretend we all had the answers back in Feb and it was just the government who didn't see it coming.

I've changed my view a few times, at first I was with Zlatan and it would be no worse than flu, and said that. When the deaths were touching a thousand a day I thought it was going to get worse. Now, if people keep to the social distancing it won't be as bad as I thought it would get then.

Iam off for my coffee now.

When you look back I hope you’ll see that I was trying to temper the Armageddon scenarios (26% death rates!) that others were portraying with terrible use of statistics to back up their arguments - some posts I recall my sarcasm kicks in where I may appear to not take things seriously.

I worry that if I state my position on the comparison to flu that it will deflect from the debate. I will maintain my position though, and hope that you will understand the original comparison which I am certain I caveated with conditions that many ignored (such as we have antivirals and other known treatments for flu but not Covid). Flu is a killer, Covid-19 is also a killer, there are many similarities, hence the comparisons. My original viewpoint remains, and is still backed up from a relative who is a leading virologist who worked for AstraZeneca until he retired, unfortunately as we all know on this forum it is a point scoring zone where absolutes are used to garner credits and so many don’t have the capacity to understand properly.

Back in the early days of this crisis everything did seem surreal, it is unprecedented in modern times. I’ve removed so many people from my social media channels because of the bull they post (5G and antivaxxers) some people who I thought I knew very well and it’s a shame.

My life has changed and it is not known if things will return to anything like normal. I quite enjoy working from home, I also enjoy that I’ve been forced to shop online for a lot of things like groceries. This is the new norm.

I really f#cking miss Turf Moor though, it was my time with my kids who are both older now and choose to spend less time with me than before. I also miss the atmosphere, I really hope that returns to like it was, that stuff is magic isn’t it.

Stay well, and ignore me when I’m on one - shielding isn’t fun, and does affect me as the day progresses. I don’t mean to be an ar5e about stuff but some people bring out the worst in me.

[jackmiggins]

Don't get critical of posters, that's rich coming from you after some of the names you've called people
I haven't checked, and don't intend to, but your point that our borders should have been shut completely, from anywhere, at the start of march, when did you first voice that exact view? It's not being critical, it's just that this particular discussion is about hindsight, and I wondered if that view was a result of hindsight, or you suggested it beforehand.

Ridiculous - I have never, ever hurled uncalled abuse at anyone! I quoted my post from 8th Feb, at which time the virus was supposedly limited to Asia. Very shortly after that, reports started from Italy. At this time, I felt our borders should be closed. No ‘hindsight’ here and I do wish you would cease from abstract insinuations.

[Grumps]

Thanks Zlatan
Like I said, I was the same as you, that it would be like a bad case of flu. If people were honest most thought that as well

I can relate to most of your post above, but iam lucky not having to shield, that must be hard.

If, and I know it's a big if..... We all, or at least the vast majority of us continue to social distance we might just get out of this quicker than we thought possible in april

Then we can get back to arguing about Jeff Hendrick or the price of a Mars bar.

[mdd2]

It looks increasingly as if chloroquine, a 70 year old antimalarial, will turn out to be our saviour.

(Why am I the only one banging on about this??)

Oh dear!!!

[mdd2]

You do talk some rubbish. How can something that hasn't killed a single person in the UK as yet, be worse than something that we have a vaccine for but still kills 10,000 every year?

Oh, and what evidence do you have that Covid-19 has already mutated? None I suspect.

Oh dear oh dear.

[Grumps]

Couldn’t possibly have an impact on your Walnut sized brain.

How many do you want me to find Jack?

[Zlatan]

Let’s not turn this into the hindsight thread. It will get closed as the bickering will become absurd.

(Said with a degree of irony as the Brexit thread still exists...)

Edit - too late...

[Grumps]

Let’s not turn this into the hindsight thread. It will get closed as the bickering will become absurd.

(Said with a degree of irony as the Brexit thread still exists...)

Edit - too late...

Sorry, couldn't help it, I'll withdraw for the day.

[Zlatan]

Sorry, couldn't help it, I'll withdraw for the day.

Not specifically for you Grumps

[Grumps]

It was the bickering with Jack.... I could continue with that all day if I didn't move away

[mdd2]

I think "if it be your will" post above was, at the time, an interesting point but has now been questioned in a recent trial where it apparently worsened outcomes and is a good example of the difference between what can happen in a test tube (in vitro) and what happens in the intact species (in vivo). And then we have species differences, so if a monkey is helped by the vaccine, or killed, it may not be the same in humans, although too many dead monkeys due to a vaccine will stop any human development of the vaccine.

[AndrewJB]

That quote could only be billboarded if its ever proven to be true, which it hasn't and probably never will be.

So just on the side of a bus then?