Is Johnson capable of telling the truth?

[clarethomer]

Johnson had 87% of print media by circulation propagandising for him, and the same had been attacking Labour fairly relentlessly too. While I don’t think that’s the only reason for the result, there can’t be any question of it playing a large role.

On iPlayer there’s a three part documentary on Murdoch and his media empire. Anyone watching it would be forgiven for wondering how a foreigner has had so much influence on our governments over the last forty years.

Are you able to provide the facts and evidence of this propaganda?

Can I give you some facts and evidence around who used propaganda in the election?...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/cor ... k-election

You have to read through it but...if you can't be bothered.. Here is what the momentum group who reached quite a few people with their messages too said about their campaign over the election.

“We’re not trying to push propaganda down people’s throats,” Charlaff said. “Obviously we have partisan messaging, but it’s more about trying to tell a story that people can engage with.”

Can I also tell you where people mainly received their news in 2019?

Screenshot 2020-07-31 at 23.46.12.png (301.53 KiB) Viewed 2434 times

How many of these outlets are owned by Murdoch?

[AndrewJB]

Are you able to provide the facts and evidence of this propaganda?

Can I give you some facts and evidence around who used propaganda in the election?...

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/cor ... k-election

You have to read through it but...if you can't be bothered.. Here is what the momentum group who reached quite a few people with their messages too said about their campaign over the election.

“We’re not trying to push propaganda down people’s throats,” Charlaff said. “Obviously we have partisan messaging, but it’s more about trying to tell a story that people can engage with.”

Can I also tell you where people mainly received their news in 2019?

Screenshot 2020-07-31 at 23.46.12.png

How many of these outlets are owned by Murdoch?

It’s not just Murdoch. 87% of print media by readership supported the Tories, and spent the last five years smearing the opposition leader. The stories they write become the news on radio and television, so that message is amplified. Those papers are all owned by billionaires (or in the case of the Mail, a nearly billionaire), and they promote the party who will best look after their interests.

Momentum are very good at what they do, which is why the Tories hate them so much they’ve tried to create their own version. The views their messages achieved are through people sharing. The Tories spent more on advertising than Pretty much every other party combined. When you pay for ads on Facebook, you choose who it goes to. It’s targeted ads rather than organically shared ones. And then there’s the small matter of what they actually say. 88% of Tory Facebook ads were either false or misleading, and that was just over four days. https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investig ... -11651802/

It’s bad for our democracy if people can’t at least go to the polls with accurate information that determines their choice.

[TVC15]

I’m not sure he is even capable of spelling the “trooth”

[clarethomer]

So you can’t provide any evidence of 87% of the print media showing propaganda?

You once again throw out some line and when called out and asked to back it up- you can’t. Instead you look to throw out more lines of irrelevant information which tries to move on from this.

Are you a member of momentum?

I’m pretty sure no one is jealous of them by the way, they just come across as nut jobs to me.

[taio]

It’s not just Murdoch. 87% of print media by readership supported the Tories, and spent the last five years smearing the opposition leader. The stories they write become the news on radio and television, so that message is amplified. Those papers are all owned by billionaires (or in the case of the Mail, a nearly billionaire), and they promote the party who will best look after their interests.

Momentum are very good at what they do, which is why the Tories hate them so much they’ve tried to create their own version. The views their messages achieved are through people sharing. The Tories spent more on advertising than Pretty much every other party combined. When you pay for ads on Facebook, you choose who it goes to. It’s targeted ads rather than organically shared ones. And then there’s the small matter of what they actually say. 88% of Tory Facebook ads were either false or misleading, and that was just over four days. https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investig ... -11651802/

It’s bad for our democracy if people can’t at least go to the polls with accurate information that determines their choice.

I believe this Johnson when it comes to Momentum

https://youtu.be/JikhuJjM1VM

[Aclaret]

He is a politician, why would he tell the truth ?

[mkmel]

But that's not all he is though is it?

He is supposed to be our Prime Minister ffs!!!!!!!!

[clarethomer]

Why you getting so angry mel? It won't change anything?

I think anybody that is an MP should be held to the same accountability as the PM. They are elected officials who we rely on to do the right thing for their constituents.

Newspapers and media outles lie - they inform and influence even more so than politicians.

Its a shame we don't live in a world where people don't lie but if you go back to the new statesman article I linked to earlier this explains why it doesn't really make a difference whether you call it out or not..

[JohnMcGreal]

There's a real stench of desperation on this thread. A desperation to just equate Boris Johnson with all other politicians.

All politicians lie to some degree, yes. No politician lies quite so freely as Johnson. He's in a class of his own, and there's ample evidence of that outside of his political life. He is a pathological liar.

I suspect the people claiming that he's just like any other politician are people who actually voted for him to become Prime Minister, and are maybe feeling a bit embarrassed about that fact. I know I would be.

[mdd2]

The more I read the media and the more I watch TV journalists the more I wonder why anyone would become a politician. It is not possible for any of them to do right for doing wrong. Even the so called experts pontificating about Covid seem to me at least to be too often expressing their politics than being totally open about the facts or lack of them-none more so than on the subject of testing which for weeks if not months was being flogged as the mainstay of sorting this pandemic with never a mention of the in built inaccuracies of testing. Now we are finding an increasing number of cases by testing they are rabbiting on about false positive and negative test results and somehow all this is the fault of the Government which of course it would have been had Blair, Brown, Corbyn, Starmer or May been sailing the ship

[JohnMac]

I have to wonder why people get so het up about the media and elections. They don't comment on your local MP unless you happen to live in a very select area. Nobody forces anyone to vote for an individual, the one YOU put an X on the ballot paper is your choice. It seems from recent years that people just can't accept our democratic process if the result isn't to their liking. It is always an outside influence that has somehow brainwashed those who don't follow your chosen path.

People then tend to go on about voting for a bufoon like the Prime Minister. I have never been asked to vote for a Prime Minister, there isn't a box to tick for your choice.

[mdd2]

I have to wonder why people get so het up about the media and elections. They don't comment on your local MP unless you happen to live in a very select area. Nobody forces anyone to vote for an individual, the one YOU put an X on the ballot paper is your choice. It seems from recent years that people just can't accept our democratic process if the result isn't to their liking. It is always an outside influence that has somehow brainwashed those who don't follow your chosen path.

People then tend to go on about voting for a bufoon like the Prime Minister. I have never been asked to vote for a Prime Minister, there isn't a box to for your choice.

Spot on JM but as a politician stray or be believed to have strayed from what is considered the straight and narrow and all hell lets lose.
I think if you are in the know about certain matters you get an idea of how the media behave and like politicians the media can be economical with the truth or not present a valid counter position thus bringing in bias.

[cblantfanclub]

For the democratic process to be a success it needs the electorate to be educated and informed not spoonfed lies.

[clarethomer]

Given years of people coming on here and peddling their political views, the stench has got so bad that I do now look to challenge their views.

It seems to be the same people coming on here trying to cause outrage. Presenting what is going on in the world in their head and then having a pop at things they don't really know about. They don't appear to consider the fact that none of these things are black and white as they are made out to be.

I have already called out on this post that politicians don't seem to be able to resolve the underlying issues of poverty and lies are prevalant in the world of politics and media.

There have been posts about stats, which then turn out to be rubbish and unfounded. The irony is that they are doing this whilst calling out politicians for doing the exact same thing.

We have then have posts trying to be clever about saying one parties ads were dirty whilst the other parties were clean - even though there had been properly referenced facts that momentum used their followers to spread their stories organically - therefore these posts would never get caught up in Ad library. People involved openly talking about how they are 'specially crafting' these stories to make an 'emotional connection' - i.e. play on people's fears and hope to attract support with promises which play to the desire of greed via getting things for free.

We have had claims the print media influenced the election when there is evidence that most people don't actually receive their news in that manner.

There are some people who are honest enough to admit their biases and just say you could save world hunger and give everyone everything they desired but if it's not labour, I still wouldn't vote for them.

Fair play but it's not them coming on here starting posts off like this.

[JohnMac]

Spot on JM but as a politician stray or be believed to have strayed from what is considered the straight and narrow and all hell lets lose.
I think if you are in the know about certain matters you get an idea of how the media behave and like politicians the media can be economical with the truth or not present a valid counter position thus bringing in bias.

The media aren't worth a toss in any form, I remember in '97 The Sun backing John Major but when it was obvious in the final days Tony Blair was going to be the man to turn over the Tories the headline strap 'We're Backing Labour' appeared

[AndrewJB]

Corbyn sat down with Irish Republicans to talk peace, and this was painted as “being friends with terrorists” and therefore he was unsuited for government. Claire Fox not only supported Irish independence, but also terrorist violence. Boris Johnson has just put her in the House of Lords.

[Spijed]

Corbyn sat down with Irish Republicans to talk peace, and this was painted as “being friends with terrorists” and therefore he was unsuited for government. Claire Fox not only supported Irish independence, but also terrorist violence. Boris Johnson has just put her in the House of Lords.

Because she supports Brexit it seems that it's ok to advocate killing innocent people including children which she has done in the past.

[AndrewJB]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... e-used-nhs

There are a lot of these strange deals in which the government has chosen a small company with no relationship to PPE over companies with established track records. Maybe, like the ferry company with no ships, they thought a company with no experience in the subject field might bring a fresh perspective? Or is it people just ripping off the public purse?

Such a coincidence that a government advisor, also happens to be an advisor at a company with zero experience of PPE, which wins a £150 Million contract to provide it. And so fortuitous for him that he just happened to set up his own company a few months ago, and now might be able to skim a little off a contract to bolster his own earnings.

Covid might be a problem for the country, but the clever Tories are always alert for profit making opportunities. They must be laughing at the NHS and care home staff who did their duty rather than use the opportunity to demand better pay and conditions.

[dsr]

We know. The Guardian has made quite a thing about how the government was in so much of a hurry to buy PPE that they got some of it wrong, and how they should have taken their time and gone through the usual channels because better to have no protective masks at all than waste part of the budget on ineffective ones. At least, I assume that's their conclusion.

It would also have been helpful, if Starmer's position as Labour leader is that these PPE supply orders were being rushed into, if he had said so at the time. He could have made it one of the planks of his first month as Labour leader to criticise the government for moving too fast in the sourcing of PPE and telling them that it wasn't that urgent and they should slow down. Why didn't he?

Why are the masks unusable? The mask I have is one with earpieces rather than round the back of the head - is it unusable? I think the article perhaps ought to mention that the masks will be usable and will be used, albeit not as originally intended.

[Devils_Advocate]

Fancy getting upset at the govt for asking you to wear a mask in a shop whilst having no problem with their corruption robbing the country £150m. You really must be a lonely old self centered individual to hold the views you do

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1291 ... 77600.html

[AndrewJB]

We know. The Guardian has made quite a thing about how the government was in so much of a hurry to buy PPE that they got some of it wrong, and how they should have taken their time and gone through the usual channels because better to have no protective masks at all than waste part of the budget on ineffective ones. At least, I assume that's their conclusion.

It would also have been helpful, if Starmer's position as Labour leader is that these PPE supply orders were being rushed into, if he had said so at the time. He could have made it one of the planks of his first month as Labour leader to criticise the government for moving too fast in the sourcing of PPE and telling them that it wasn't that urgent and they should slow down. Why didn't he?

Why are the masks unusable? The mask I have is one with earpieces rather than round the back of the head - is it unusable? I think the article perhaps ought to mention that the masks will be usable and will be used, albeit not as originally intended.

“...they got some of it wrong.” - it looks to a lot of people like the kind of corruption you’d get in a banana republic, with aid money finding its way into the pockets of officials and their friends and families.

[android]

Fancy getting upset at the govt for asking you to wear a mask in a shop whilst having no problem with their corruption robbing the country £150m. You really must be a lonely old self centered individual to hold the views you do

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1291 ... 77600.html

Your link raised a laugh: "the most extraordinary thread I have ever written" by Jo Maugham QC. Sorry pal but you are never going to top your story of the fox and the baseball bat.

[Zlatan]

85C8488E-C804-4555-B701-2E5E4727862E.jpeg (27.83 KiB) Viewed 1951 times

[scouseclaret]

We know. The Guardian has made quite a thing about how the government was in so much of a hurry to buy PPE that they got some of it wrong, and how they should have taken their time and gone through the usual channels because better to have no protective masks at all than waste part of the budget on ineffective ones. At least, I assume that's their conclusion.

It would also have been helpful, if Starmer's position as Labour leader is that these PPE supply orders were being rushed into, if he had said so at the time. He could have made it one of the planks of his first month as Labour leader to criticise the government for moving too fast in the sourcing of PPE and telling them that it wasn't that urgent and they should slow down. Why didn't he?

Why are the masks unusable? The mask I have is one with earpieces rather than round the back of the head - is it unusable? I think the article perhaps ought to mention that the masks will be usable and will be used, albeit not as originally intended.

I really find it incredible that anyone would try and defend these actions.

Do you seriously believe that the government was so stuck for options that it made sense to award a contract for the provision of healthcare equipment to a wealth management company?

It’s such a bizarre thing to do I find it impossible to reach any other conclusion that those involved were seeking to line their own pockets.

[AndrewJB]

I really find it incredible that anyone would try and defend these actions.

Do you seriously believe that the government was so stuck for options that it made sense to award a contract for the provision of healthcare equipment to a wealth management company?

It’s such a bizarre thing to do I find it impossible to reach any other conclusion that those involved were seeking to line their own pockets.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... ll-will-do

The government passed emergency legislation allowing them to bypass ordinary procurement protocols back in March, so I don’t think this is actually illegal (I’m not a lawyer though either). It is naked profiteering on public money though, and the number failures already could be putting lives at risk. One company chosen to provide PPE is a pest control company with no PPE experience. We know already that a lot of money was already spent on a track and trace app that has been scrapped, by a company owned by someone close to Dominic Cummings. They’re also going to hugely overhaul the planning system, though it’s probably only incidental that property developers have donated £11 million to the party.

I don’t think much of this is covered by the press. I had a peep at my father-in-law’s Telegraph on Tuesday, and their headline was that Russian hackers got a hold of the NHS dossier by hacking Liam Fox. Nothing in the article wondered at (or even informed the reader that) why it was on his personal email in the first place. The article did mention that Labour used the dossier to make accusations against the government, and anyone reading it would be forgiven for thinking they’d been given it by Russian hackers directly, rather than finding it on Reddit, where it had been for several weeks.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

When you say pest control company with no PPE experience, what do you mean?

With Pest control they'll use PPE and purchase it.

[Devils_Advocate]

When you say pest control company with no PPE experience, what do you mean?

With Pest control they'll use PPE and purchase it.

Have a read

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1268 ... 31011.html

[AndrewJB]

When you say pest control company with no PPE experience, what do you mean?

With Pest control they'll use PPE and purchase it.

They have 18 employees, and assets of £19K. This article goes into the whole thing in greater detail. According to it the Cabinet Office took control of procurement, “to the horror of PHE staff...”

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/15/the- ... t-scandal/

[martin_p]

We know. The Guardian has made quite a thing about how the government was in so much of a hurry to buy PPE that they got some of it wrong, and how they should have taken their time and gone through the usual channels because better to have no protective masks at all than waste part of the budget on ineffective ones. At least, I assume that's their conclusion.

Surely making sure the companies tasked with buying PPE knew something about PPE wouldn’t really have delayed things.

[AndrewJB]

Surely making sure the companies tasked with buying PPE knew something about PPE wouldn’t really have delayed things.

What taking back control / going by what works / being led by science, looks like: “he stuck in his thumb, and pulled out a plum...”

[BurnleyFC]

Corbyn sat down with Irish Republicans to talk peace, and this was painted as “being friends with terrorists” and therefore he was unsuited for government. Claire Fox not only supported Irish independence, but also terrorist violence. Boris Johnson has just put her in the House of Lords.

Like **** he did. He is a terrorist sympathiser, just like his mate John McDonnell.

[Devils_Advocate]

Like **** he did. He is a terrorist sympathiser, just like his mate John McDonnell.

I think the real story here is Johnson putting a terrorist sympathiser in the House of Lords.

[AndrewJB]

Like **** he did. He is a terrorist sympathiser, just like his mate John McDonnell.

You have no proof for Corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser, because he’s always deplored violence. Johnson however is a terror sympathiser, because he’s mates with the Saudi government, and he’s just ennobled a woman who justified the deaths of young children at the hands of the IRA.

[dsr]

Surely making sure the companies tasked with buying PPE knew something about PPE wouldn’t really have delayed things.

What that article carefully does not say is whether or not the goods provided were made to the specification requested. It says that the fastenings were behind the ear instead of behind the head, and therefore unsuitable for NHS use. (Airedale hospital certainly used some behind the ear fastening masks, but that's another matter.)

But it does not say that the company were asked for behind-the-head fastenings. If they were, then the stuff could be sent back and not paid for. I think it is more likely that the Prime Minister and his team got it wrong and asked for the wrong sort of masks. So in that sense, another black mark for Boris Johnson and the rest of the cabinet. (PHE may share some of the blame if they had any input into the drafting of the contract.)

[dsr]

They have 18 employees, and assets of £19K. This article goes into the whole thing in greater detail. According to it the Cabinet Office took control of procurement, “to the horror of PHE staff...”

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/06/15/the- ... t-scandal/

I'm certainly not denying that PHE has made a complete dog's breakfast of the whole thing. This is where Matt Hancock was left high and dry. He had a 5,000 strong department of experts that were little more use than 5,000 random Twitter users. And he didn't grasp soon enough, how useless they were.

[martin_p]

What that article carefully does not say is whether or not the goods provided were made to the specification requested. It says that the fastenings were behind the ear instead of behind the head, and therefore unsuitable for NHS use. (Airedale hospital certainly used some behind the ear fastening masks, but that's another matter.)

But it does not say that the company were asked for behind-the-head fastenings. If they were, then the stuff could be sent back and not paid for. I think it is more likely that the Prime Minister and his team got it wrong and asked for the wrong sort of masks. So in that sense, another black mark for Boris Johnson and the rest of the cabinet. (PHE may share some of the blame if they had any input into the drafting of the contract.)

Yep, that tends to happen when you short cut the process.

[Bfcboyo]

Isn't our country brilliant and transparent this tells me. Do you think you would get wind of this in China, Russia or another hundred countries that rule with an iron fist.

Mistakes are made just be glad we get the chance to criticise them.

[dsr]

Yep, that tends to happen when you short cut the process.

Agreed. If they had been less concerned with saving lives in a life-or-death emergency and more concerned with saving the pennies, this order would not have been placed.

[Taffy on the wing]

Isn't our country brilliant and transparent this tells me. Do you think you would get wind of this in China, Russia or another hundred countries that rule with an iron fist.

Mistakes are made just be glad we get the chance to criticise them.

OMFG.............

[Taffy on the wing]

You have no proof for Corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser, because he’s always deplored violence. Johnson however is a terror sympathiser, because he’s mates with the Saudi government, and he’s just ennobled a woman who justified the deaths of young children at the hands of the IRA.

You are the most patient person i've ever witnessed!.......I don't know how you keep doing it.

[Devils_Advocate]

Agreed. If they had been less concerned with saving lives in a life-or-death emergency and more concerned with saving the pennies, this order would not have been placed.

You mean if they had been more concerned with saving lives in a life-or-death emergency and less concerned with lining their own pockets and the pockets of those close to them, this order would not have been placed

[Devils_Advocate]

Isn't our country brilliant and transparent this tells me. Do you think you would get wind of this in China, Russia or another hundred countries that rule with an iron fist.

Mistakes are made just be glad we get the chance to criticise them.

Yes there would have been equally as good investigative journalists in China and Russia uncovering things like this however in those country's there is no doubt it would have been swept under the carpet and the mainstream media and the majority of the population would have wilfully ignored it and so there would have been no repercussions for the criminals in charge

Lets see if the people, media and other politicians in this country care enough to force scrutiny and real accountability before we start jumping for joy about how great we are because all the signs coming out of this govt is that we are taking the fast path towards a corrupt state like Russia.

[AndrewJB]

I'm certainly not denying that PHE has made a complete dog's breakfast of the whole thing. This is where Matt Hancock was left high and dry. He had a 5,000 strong department of experts that were little more use than 5,000 random Twitter users. And he didn't grasp soon enough, how useless they were.

Try reading the articles. The Cabinet Office took charge of the supply of PPE, to the consternation of the procurement people in PHE.

“Dad, do you remember that gardening company your friend set up for tax purposes two years ago? Tell them they’ve got a thirty million pound contract.”

[AndrewJB]

I'm certainly not denying that PHE has made a complete dog's breakfast of the whole thing. This is where Matt Hancock was left high and dry. He had a 5,000 strong department of experts that were little more use than 5,000 random Twitter users. And he didn't grasp soon enough, how useless they were.

Just as Johnson has purged the ethical core of his party, he’s also overseen the resignations of veteran civil servants (more than a few under clouds of bullying with massive payoffs). These are being replaced by political yes men. He’s imprinting his personal shambles not only across his party, but the entire civil service too. After ten years in power the Tory Party can only blame itself for the departments it runs.

[aggi]

What that article carefully does not say is whether or not the goods provided were made to the specification requested. It says that the fastenings were behind the ear instead of behind the head, and therefore unsuitable for NHS use. (Airedale hospital certainly used some behind the ear fastening masks, but that's another matter.)

But it does not say that the company were asked for behind-the-head fastenings. If they were, then the stuff could be sent back and not paid for. I think it is more likely that the Prime Minister and his team got it wrong and asked for the wrong sort of masks. So in that sense, another black mark for Boris Johnson and the rest of the cabinet. (PHE may share some of the blame if they had any input into the drafting of the contract.)

That article may not say it but it's been clear elsewhere that the specification that was in place at the time of order did mandate head fastenings, not behind the ear. This was the specification:

[AndrewJB]

That article may not say it but it's been clear elsewhere that the specification that was in place at the time of order did mandate head fastenings, not behind the ear. This was the specification:

It’s so reassuring that a government unable to procure face coverings that meet a particular standard are negotiating complex trade deals with other countries

[dsr]

It’s so reassuring that a government unable to procure face coverings that meet a particular standard are negotiating complex trade deals with other countries

Sneer, sneer, sneer. The government in its dash for facemasks managed to order some of the wrong sort. Sneer, sneer. Why don't find a government that never makes any mistakes. Sneer, sneer.

Why are you so utterly contemptuous of the government about PPE? Not having enough in stock - you can complain about that. Not buying the stuff in fast enough - you can complain about that. But wasting money by buying the wrong stuff when by delaying a month or two they could have saved a few pennies? You complain about that? You would prefer to run out of PPE and let people die for the sake of relative petty cash? You ought to be better than that.

[martin_p]

Sneer, sneer, sneer. The government in its dash for facemasks managed to order some of the wrong sort. Sneer, sneer. Why don't find a government that never makes any mistakes. Sneer, sneer.

Why are you so utterly contemptuous of the government about PPE? Not having enough in stock - you can complain about that. Not buying the stuff in fast enough - you can complain about that. But wasting money by buying the wrong stuff when by delaying a month or two they could have saved a few pennies? You complain about that? You would prefer to run out of PPE and let people die for the sake of relative petty cash? You ought to be better than that.

No, by delaying they could have bought some face masks the NHS could have used. The process isn’t necessarily about saving money by the way, it’s about getting the best deal which includes understanding what you’re getting for your money. The cheapest bid often doesn’t win.

[dsr]

No, by delaying they could have bought some face masks the NHS could have used. The process isn’t necessarily about saving money by the way, it’s about getting the best deal which includes understanding what you’re getting for your money. The cheapest bid often doesn’t win.

As far as I can see they didn't have competitive tendering, they just bought from anyone that said they could supply. Obviously there were dismal failures of communication involving people who didn't know what they were doing, but if you have any evidence that this bid was chosen and another rejected as a result, please share.

[claretonthecoast1882]

It’s so reassuring that a government unable to procure face coverings that meet a particular standard are negotiating complex trade deals with other countries

Such an awful group of people, charlatans and liars... hi Boris can I have my handout please