Cancel Culture ?

[ksrclaret]

with your history you'd be best not commenting on anyone making a **** of themselves with the back pedalling you do, now move on there's a good lad..

Ooh I say what rattled your cage? Please calm down, it's only a message board.

[walter the softy]

Could have been an interesting thread but it seems to have got derailed quite a bit. Seems to me that a lot of people on here are just stuck in repeating their entrenched world view and splitting hairs to try to win petty squabbles without actually discussing the subject itself that much. Pity.

[PeterWilton]

You're trolling now Marty.

Read my earlier post made at 01.29. If you want to pretend you dont understand my point of use of the racist term "white privilege" that's your call.

If I were to look at your post history would I find posts from you complaining about the left calling everything they don't like "racism"?

[PeterWilton]

Could have been an interesting thread but it seems to have got derailed quite a bit. Seems to me that a lot of people on here are just stuck in repeating their entrenched world view and splitting hairs to try to win petty squabbles without actually discussing the subject itself that much. Pity.

It's pretty tough to indefinitely continue a discussion about something that doesn't exist.

[Heathclaret]

Good for him. He's wrong though. Just because he doesn't thing he was hindered by societies attitude towards other races doesn't mean he wasn't. It just means he has done better for himself than he thinks he has.

And you are right. I really didn’t see that coming. Your response is really why I don’t bother posting on here anymore.

I really just wanted to point out a person of colours experience, and his fathers before him, as he sees it, positive.

I’ll tell him that the Oracle disagrees and he is wrong about his own life.

[claretonthecoast1882]

If I were to look at your post history would I find posts from you complaining about the left calling everything they don't like "racism"?

If people looked at your post history under your other username would anyone find posts with you derailing threads and patronising people ?


Interesting that the little gaggle on here who spent a while going at other posters for either changing usernames or posting as someone else have no issue when it is someone they agree with and don't feel the need to have a go at in numbers.

[aggi]

A customer of mine, he is half Bangladeshi ( father ) and half Bulgarian, completely disagrees with you. His parents came to Britain when he was a young child as his father was felt he would never be accepted in Bulgaria, and they both got jobs as engineers working for London Underground. To cut a long story short, my customer went to a decent school, worked hard, he praises the Headmaster as he was a disciplinarian, eventually working for Barclays selling mortagages. His parents decided the money that they had saved wasn’t working very hard for their retirement and my customer persuaded them to get into property to rent.

They now have a portfolio of over a hundred properties that they rent out. Some in the East Midlands, North West and London. He has his own thoughts on the problems of BAME people, and is adamant the colour of his skin has never got in the way of his progression. His parents both feel that they would never have got the same opportunities any where else. When we speak about the current issues, his views are not aligned with current trends.

I spoke to him about Devils Advocate listing me as a racist on this site, he thought it was very funny.

He’s an Arsenal fan.

Anecdotes don't really scale up over the population though. There are a whole array of measurements that can be looked at to illustrate inequality. Educational achievement, home ownership, salaries, arrest figures, poverty, prison population, etc

[ksrclaret]

If people looked at your post history under your other username would anyone find posts with you derailing threads and patronising people ?


Interesting that the little gaggle on here who spent a while going at other posters for either changing usernames or posting as someone else have no issue when it is someone they agree with and don't feel the need to have a go at in numbers.

Come on, don't be shy, I can see you're itching to share the results of your super-sleuthing... which is the other username you think this poster is using?

[PeterWilton]

And you are right. I really didn’t see that coming. Your response is really why I don’t bother posting on here anymore.

I really just wanted to point out a person of colours experience, and his fathers before him, as he sees it, positive.

I’ll tell him that the Oracle disagrees and he is wrong about his own life.

I'm sincerely really glad for him. But he's still definitely wrong. He will have had to overcome racism, whether he's aware of it or not, that a white person wouldn't have had to overcome.

If he got lucky that the racism of our society didn't hinder his success then he still had to get lucky. I wouldn't have to get lucky in that way. That is white privilege.

By the sounds of it he's a smart guy, so I'm sure he would understand the point I'm making.

[Heathclaret]

Anecdotes don't really scale up over the population though. There are a whole array of measurements that can be looked at to illustrate inequality. Educational achievement, home ownership, salaries, arrest figures, poverty, prison population, etc

Perhaps not, but seeing as I only work for a tiny % of the population, perhaps people of all colours are doing well.

His view is if you work hard enough, you will achieve. If you expect wealth and luxury to be given, you won’t get either.

I don’t think society is perfect, poverty exists, that, to me, is the problem.

[NottsClaret]

Please quote what you think I have said that was misogynistic, and why it is misogynistic,and I will happy correct you without snark.

Still waiting for you to define what a woman is, if not an adult female. One question at a time and we'll get there.

[aggi]

Thanks aggi. You seem to be the only "left wing liberal" on here (apologies if you don't consider yourself as such) with the confidence to agree that ignoring skin colour is even an acceptable way of defeating racism never mind a desirable way. Isn't that amazing and depressing in 2020? (I know Kate has expressed agreement but I think Kate is more from the centre politically or centre right perhaps from what I remember - thanks for your posts Kate).

I don't see it as utopian. Ambitious maybe. I know what you mean about Fox but to be fair I doubt he has never tried to set himself up as an arbiter.

A couple of thoughts. I have a bit of a nuanced view (shocking I know) of black lives matter (not so about BLM the political movement whose politics I don't like). In football, for example, I can see the blm message potentially doing some good but not in a particularly inspiring way. We have seen that football crowds do still possess some knuckle dragging racists and I think the movement could shut them up, which would be a result. Sadly though I don't see it actually changing minds. Then again the footballers did seem united and maybe a Ben Mee or a Raheem Sterling will inspire someone to see things differently.

However, I think most of our society didn't need telling that black lives matter and were already ahead of this. Focusing attention on skin colour makes me uncomfortable. Which brings me to something I saw on tv today. It was the 2 Liberal democrat leader contenders (who knew that has happening?!), a white BBC presenter and a black liberal democrat caller. It was excruciating. Among other things, the 2 contenders were falling over themselves to make it clear that they would make it compulsory for BAME representation on candidate shortlists. Last year it would have been a conversation between 4 people. Today it was very clearly a conversation between 3 white people tense with guilt and anxious not to say the wrong thing and one black person. And pity the sole BAME candidate on a shortlist who is there on merit but people inevitably believe is there on skin colour. I don't see that as progress.

I wouldn't describe myself as a left wing liberal although we've seen on other threads recently how keen people are on pigeonholing anyone with a different point of view.

I'd say he set himself up as an arbiter when he tried to tell a black woman what wasn't racism.

Focusing attention on skin colour makes me uncomfortable. I think a lot of people would say "at bloody last". It is uncomfortable, people don't want to accept that maybe they have had some privilege, however unconsciously.

As I said in my previous post, when the current state of inequality is where it's at then just saying "I don't see colour, everyone is equal" isn't going to fix that. It's an end position but it isn't going to fix things now.

It's liking saying "I don't see class" so I believe the lad who grew up in working class Burnley now has the same opportunities as the Duke of Grosvenor. If you only pay lip service to it but don't actually address the inequality then little will change.

[aggi]

Perhaps not, but seeing as I only work for a tiny % of the population, perhaps people of all colours are doing well.

His view is if you work hard enough, you will achieve. If you expect wealth and luxury to be given, you won’t get either.

I don’t think society is perfect, poverty exists, that, to me, is the problem.

But they aren't, certainly not equally.

[Heathclaret]

I'm sincerely really glad for him. But he's still definitely wrong. He will have had to overcome racism, whether he's aware of it or not, that a white person wouldn't have had to overcome.

If he got lucky that the racism of our society didn't hinder his success then he still had to get lucky. I wouldn't have to get lucky in that way. That is white privilege.

By the sounds of it he's a smart guy, so I'm sure he would understand the point I'm making.

Perhaps, just maybe, you’re wrong.

I’ll tell him that all his hard work, boiled down to luck. He’ll probably just laugh, he has that sort of personality.

I don’t think he will agree with you, in previous conversations about this, and associated subjects, he says that people like you “ are full of nonsense “ his opinion, not mine.

[walter the softy]

It's pretty tough to indefinitely continue a discussion about something that doesn't exist.

I refer you to my initial post on this thread. Please take the time to read about the case of Ronald Sullivan of the Harvey Weinstein defence team and then think about the implications of it. I could have chosen other cases but this seems to me particularly worrying and a very good example of "cancel culture". As I wrote previously, the case is in the USA and I do think that that "cancel culture" is much more prevalent in the USA but the principle applies still.

Here is another link for you. I think we can both agree that The Atlantic is a good quality publication, right?

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... in/589300/

[Heathclaret]

But they aren't, certainly not equally.

I don’t agree with you.

[android]

You won't get me to agree to anything while you continue to falsely imply that it is something I once didn't agree to.


I really don't care how other people use the term "White privilege". Why should I? If someone like Ringo wants to use the term incorrectly, or interpret the term incorrectly, then why should I care, and why should I stop using it correctly just because his misinterpretation of the term leads huom to be offended when there isn't anything to be offended by were he to actually not deliberately misinterpret it?

I never said or implied that white privilege was universal? Why on earth do you think that's a point that needed to be made?

Yes, majority privilege could be an alternate term for it, but white privilege isn't the only majority privilege that exists, which means its not always adequate. But even so, why does it matter if its called white privilege or something else? What does the name of it matter? Why are people so offended by it being called white privilege in a predominantly white country? And why are these people who are offended by it always the same people who complain about how easily people are offended these days?

Anyway, I couldn't give a **** if you, Ringo, or anyone is offended by white privilege being called white privilege. Get a grip of yourselves and stop being so easily offended would be my advice.

That's just flailing around now. Claiming that I am somehow offended has always been a signal that you have lost the plot.

[android]

I'm sincerely really glad for him. But he's still definitely wrong. He will have had to overcome racism, whether he's aware of it or not, that a white person wouldn't have had to overcome.

If he got lucky that the racism of our society didn't hinder his success then he still had to get lucky. I wouldn't have to get lucky in that way. That is white privilege.

By the sounds of it he's a smart guy, so I'm sure he would understand the point I'm making.

This is an example of how your sweeping generalisations don't work. This person you don't know may have benefited from his non-white skin colour. We don't know. It is funny when you pontificate like this and claim to know other people, who you have never even seen or heard, better than themselves. I suppose this thread could do with a bit of light relief. I am going to have to leave you to it.

[PeterWilton]

Still waiting for you to define what a woman is, if not an adult female. One question at a time and we'll get there.

Why?

Someone who identifies as a woman.

Why the hell did you need me to say that? Was that not obvious enough already or some thing? What a weird question.

[PeterWilton]

This is an example of how your sweeping generalisations don't work. This person you don't know may have benefited from his non-white skin colour. We don't know. It is funny when you pontificate like this and claim to know other people, who you have never even seen or heard, better than themselves. I suppose this thread could do with a bit of light relief. I am going to have to leave you to it.

No, the sweeping generalisation works just fine because white privilidge isn't defined by any one person's experiences but by the sum or all experiences. He might well have benefitted from being non-White. But stastically he didn't. Statistically he had to overcome a hindrance that white people didn't have to overcome. That hinderence being a higher degree of racism for non-Whites than for whites.

This is not a difficult thing to understand. Why are so many of you determined not to understand it?

[PeterWilton]

That's just flailing around now. Claiming that I am somehow offended has always been a signal that you have lost the plot.

I think a better signal that one has lost the plot is when instead of addressing the meat of a post you only address the throwaway line at the end of it because you have no argument against the substance.

[martin_p]

You're trolling now Marty.

Read my earlier post made at 01.29. If you want to pretend you dont understand my point of use of the racist term "white privilege" that's your call.

Yes I read it. You basically said white privilege exists and tried to explain it away. Was it rubbish you read on one of your right wing sites or did you make it up yourself? How does your ‘majority’ theory explain away what I’ll call ‘male privilege’?

[NottsClaret]

Why?

Someone who identifies as a woman.

Why the hell did you need me to say that? Was that not obvious enough already or some thing? What a weird question.

Struggling on this one, aren’t you. I don’t need you to answer, just curious if you could.

And you can’t, other than going round in linguistic circles rather than saying what you really think as you’re bright enough to know that will reveal your old-as-time stereotyping and misogyny. Just like all the little racists on here too smart to fully out themselves.

[dsr]

Good for him. He's wrong though. Just because he doesn't thing he was hindered by societies attitude towards other races doesn't mean he wasn't. It just means he has done better for himself than he thinks he has.

You don't know this man, you have never met this man, but you feel yourself more qualified to judge his life than he is himself.

If there was ever an example of "white privilege" at work, this may be it. You must to have a huge belief that you are better than him. What other explanation is there for such staggering arrogance?

[Devils_Advocate]

I spoke to him about Devils Advocate listing me as a racist on this site, he thought it was very funny.

Made up or imagined fairytales often can be quite humorous and if you're friend would like a signed photograph Id be only happy to oblige.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzP0VA9Io10

[PeterWilton]

Struggling on this one, aren’t you. I don’t need you to answer, just curious if you could.

And you can’t, other than going round in linguistic circles rather than saying what you really think as you’re bright enough to know that will reveal your old-as-time stereotyping and misogyny. Just like all the little racists on here too smart to fully out themselves.

What the ****? You asked me a question straight up, and I answered it straight up. What the actual **** are you going on about with "linguistic circles"? I consider a woman to be literally "someone who identifies as a woman". What on earth have I said to make you think that I'm being dishonest there?

What answer were you expecting, since clearly that answer dissatisfied you.

[claretonthecoast1882]

full on imploding

[PeterWilton]

You don't know this man, you have never met this man, but you feel yourself more qualified to judge his life than he is himself.

If there was ever an example of "white privilege" at work, this may be it. You must to have a huge belief that you are better than him. What other explanation is there for such staggering arrogance?

No. I'm not judging his life. I've already explained my opinion perfectly adequately for anyone who is interested in understanding it.

[NottsClaret]

What the ****? You asked me a question straight up, and I answered it straight up. What the actual **** are you going on about with "linguistic circles"? I consider a woman to be literally "someone who identifies as a woman". What on earth have I said to make you think that I'm being dishonest there?

What answer were you expecting, since clearly that answer dissatisfied you.

So you are Turtle. Good to have you back, man.

[PeterWilton]

So you are Turtle. Good to have you back, man.

What are you even talking about? Start making sense!

[PeterWilton]

You don't know this man, you have never met this man, but you feel yourself more qualified to judge his life than he is himself.

If there was ever an example of "white privilege" at work, this may be it. You must to have a huge belief that you are better than him. What other explanation is there for such staggering arrogance?

By the way, I asked you a question on a previous page. I shared a picture of a guy taking a picture of himself in a ladies bathroom and was wondering if you would comment on it. Thanks.

[NottsClaret]

What are you even talking about? Start making sense!

I wasn't sure you were him, until you started with the expletive-asterisks the moment you start to lose a debate. Classic Turtle that.

[Bfcboyo]

So you are Turtle. Good to have you back, man.

Hey I outed him as turtle and now I want my prize!

[Bfcboyo]

By the way, I asked you a question on a previous page. I shared a picture of a guy taking a picture of himself in a ladies bathroom and was wondering if you would comment on it. Thanks.

Was it you in the background?

[PeterWilton]

Ksr's deleted post explains a few things.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Ksr's deleted post explains a few things.

What does it explain

[KateR]

No way on God's green earth is he IT, simply no way.

[ksrclaret]

Ksr's deleted post explains a few things.

Quite, there has been something of an obsession on here in finding out who Turtle is. I’ve had my own suspicions previously.

I dare say this is as good a lead as any though...

[aggi]

I don’t agree with you.

Fair enough. You can ignore the overwhelming number of statistics out there and stick your head in the sand if it makes you feel better. Personally I'd say that's facilitating institutional and societal racism but hey ho.

[Damo]

It's pretty tough to indefinitely continue a discussion about something that doesn't exist.

You have snow flake privilege.
You have absolutely no right to dismiss cancel culture as it doesn't affect you

[KateR]

By the way, I asked you a question on a previous page. I shared a picture of a guy taking a picture of himself in a ladies bathroom and was wondering if you would comment on it. Thanks.

I will bite, my comment, is what point were you trying to make and while you are at it consider these points when answering, simutaneously providing us with the proof of the answer you give rather than your interpretation:

How do you know it was a ladies bathroom

Is the guy a trans male in a women's bathroom

Is the women a trans women in a male bathroom

Is it a male and a women sharing a mixed facility

The male is wearing a cowboy hat if I remember, is it American, if so then it's a restroom.

Could it be a gay bar where all toilets are considered gender neutral

Are they both White Privileged

I'm sure you get the idea by now, so perhaps you can enlighten all of us with your pearls of wisdom, the back of the class is waiting to be enlightened

[dsr]

By the way, I asked you a question on a previous page. I shared a picture of a guy taking a picture of himself in a ladies bathroom and was wondering if you would comment on it. Thanks.

I didn't want to share a picture of a man in a ladies' toilet. I don't think there is much I want to share with you, frankly, but your peculiar photo collection certainly isn't it.

[Damo]

Hey I outed him as turtle and now I want my prize!

It was me who discovered his cunning disguise.
I've sussed his new username several times. Mentioning "virtue signaller" usually does it

[PeterWilton]

I didn't want to share a picture of a man in a ladies' toilet. I don't think there is much I want to share with you, frankly, but your peculiar photo collection certainly isn't it.

I shared that picture with you because that is something transphobes want to force. They want to force that guy, and others like him, to use women's toilets. I wanted to know what you thought about that but I see you don't want to talk about it, and that's OK too. Just please don't try to stand in the way of trans rights. Thanks.

[RingoMcCartney]

Yes I read it.

You basically said white privilege exists and tried to explain it away.

You clearly didn't.

Troll along.

[PeterWilton]

I will bite, my comment, is what point were you trying to make and while you are at it consider these points when answering, simutaneously providing us with the proof of the answer you give rather than your interpretation:

How do you know it was a ladies bathroom

Is the guy a trans male in a women's bathroom

Is the women a trans women in a male bathroom

Is it a male and a women sharing a mixed facility

The male is wearing a cowboy hat if I remember, is it American, if so then it's a restroom.

Could it be a gay bar where all toilets are considered gender neutral

Are they both White Privileged

I'm sure you get the idea by now, so perhaps you can enlighten all of us with your pearls of wisdom, the back of the class is waiting to be enlightened

Yes, he is a trans man, and yes, he is in women's bathrooms. He was making a point against Republican legislation in his start that if passed would force him to use women's bathrooms.

I shared it because dsr brought up bathroom usage for trans people, which is always where this discussion leads for some reason, and thought I'd nip it in the bud by asking him a question he would have some trouble answering.

[NottsClaret]

Yes, he is a trans man, and yes, he is in women's bathrooms. He was making a point against Republican legislation in his start that if passed would force him to use women's bathrooms.

I shared it because dsr brought up bathroom usage for trans people, which is always where this discussion leads for some reason, and thought I'd nip it in the bud by asking him a question he would have some trouble answering.

You have trouble answering what a woman is.

[PeterWilton]

You have trouble answering what a woman is.

I've literally answered it twice now.

[KateR]

Oh by the way Peter,
since you have not replied regarding my questions on the picture, I forgot one other point you can add to the list as you ponder how to answer:

There is also one other person in the bathroom taking the picture, is it a male/female or trans person, of is the male taking the picture through a mirror, or as I suspect might be happening is the male taking a picture of the trans female stood at a urinal?

Hopefully you will be sharing links to where you got the picture that provides explanations to all the points made regarding the picture you wanted people to discuss so we can review and form an informed position rather than rely on your interpretation of things. I ask this because up to now your interpretation and explanations have been very weak and seemed to have virtually convinced no one. I know you don't care but I am interested to learn and at least try to understand other people's point of view.

[NottsClaret]

I've literally answered it twice now.

You 'literally' haven't. You churned out the 'anyone who identifies as a woman' line.

But you don't know what a woman is, or at least can't say. So it's pretty meaningless. Actually, it's totally meaningless.

So come on Turtle, try harder than that. If they're identifying as something, what is that something. What is a woman? What makes a woman different to a man, if not solely biology?