A Levels, Covid, Brexit. Worst Government Ever?

[RingoMcCartney]

"Northern Ireland Secretary admits new bill will 'break international law'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54073836

Let's see how things develop shall we...

[RingoMcCartney]

Top use (well copy/paste) of subjugation there.

No-one is saying that UK law stops this happening. Parliament is sovereign and that has always been the case regardless of whether we were in the EU.

What is the problem is that breaching an agreement in international law isn't a good look when you're trying to negotiate trade deals where you'll be bound by international law.

See above

[Spijed]

Let's see how things develop shall we...

He will have been told that by the lawyers etc.

[RingoMcCartney]

He will have been told that by the lawyers etc.

Ok, like I say , let's see how things pan out.

[Spijed]

Ok, like I say , let's see how things pan out.

https://www.ft.com/content/6c3a641f-537 ... ede1656d20

“This is not a mere difference of interpretation of the relevant law, where reasonable people can disagree. Instead, Sir Jonathan must believe the proposal must be so far outside the scope of valid legal interpretations that there can be no doubt of its unlawfulness.”

[AndrewJB]

Some people are completely without shame in the depths they sink to defend this government’s shambolic behaviour.

It just goes to show there was never an oven ready deal. And they were is such a hurry to reach an agreement they signed any old thing.

[joey13]

At least come out with something original you 5 star plank.

Admit it - you want thousands more people to die, just so you can say "Told you so". You're pathetic. Everyone on here knows you're pathetic. Do us all a favour and clear off. When you turn 18, come back.

You need to calm yourself down unfactual ,or maybe show a bit of humility and admit you were wrong ,remember the question you asked me “where’s the second wave” please don’t accuse me of wanting thousands of people to die , that says far more about you than me you ,you’re just embarrassing yourself.
Bullying isn’t a good trait either so I respectfully ask you to stop ,or block me ,which you said you were doing anyway .

[BurnleyFC]

The government have been an absolute shambles but the more worrying thing is I’m not convinced either Labour or the Lib Dems would’ve fared any better.

[Devils_Advocate]

Hospital admissions starting to rise but will the Ostriches get their heads out of the sand now?

[joey13]

Hospital admissions starting to rise but will the Ostriches get their heads out of the sand now?

Careful ,you’ll be labeled pathetic and wanting 1,000s of people dead

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

The government have been an absolute shambles but the more worrying thing is I’m not convinced either Labour or the Lib Dems would’ve fared any better.

We’d have been more stable under the Raving Loony Party than this bunch of utter imbeciles.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Does anybody dispute that the EU has broken the law first? By breaching Article 184 of the Withdrawal Agreement which promises to use best endeavour and negotiate in good faith to deliver the political declaration.

The PD is now about a free trade deal, and Barnier has explicitly said (stupidly) that we cannot have an agreement like Canada because we are too big and too close.

I suspect it is hard to prove, which is why the lawyers have resigned, but for ordinary people they will look at this and say the WA needs ripping up, because it threatens the Union if there is no FTA (by leaving NI so impoverished due to restrictions on GB —-> NI trade that the public feel there is no choice but to join a united Ireland).

I recall that Selmayr chap suggesting losing NI will be the price we pay for Brexit.

So personally I’m comfortable with this, but the UK has to push the good faith line, it hasn’t proven very good at selling this kind of move in the past. They’ve messed up a few things recently, albeit in uniquely tough circumstances.

[martin_p]

Does anybody dispute that the EU has broken the law first?

Just about anyone who matters yes.

Your argument doesn’t even work as Barnier saying we can’t have a Canada type agreement is not precluding a FTA.

This is desperate stuff, has to be said!

[AndrewJB]

Does anybody dispute that the EU has broken the law first? By breaching Article 184 of the Withdrawal Agreement which promises to use best endeavour and negotiate in good faith to deliver the political declaration.

The PD is now about a free trade deal, and Barnier has explicitly said (stupidly) that we cannot have an agreement like Canada because we are too big and too close.

I suspect it is hard to prove, which is why the lawyers have resigned, but for ordinary people they will look at this and say the WA needs ripping up, because it threatens the Union if there is no FTA (by leaving NI so impoverished due to restrictions on GB —-> NI trade that the public feel there is no choice but to join a united Ireland).

I recall that Selmayr chap suggesting losing NI will be the price we pay for Brexit.

So personally I’m comfortable with this, but the UK has to push the good faith line, it hasn’t proven very good at selling this kind of move in the past. They’ve messed up a few things recently, albeit in uniquely tough circumstances.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54072347

According to the BBC the senior government lawyer resigned because he was unhappy with the changes the government want to make to the withdrawal agreement.

[RingoMcCartney]

I predicted "best endeavours " would prove to be important-

Jan 30, 2019 10:47 am

It means having to prove the EU has made "best endeavours" which is extremely difficult, in legal terms to prove or disprove.

Mystical, again! Bit of a habit.

[martin_p]

I predicted "best endeavours " would prove to be important-







Mystical, again! Bit of a habit.

You didn’t predict it’d only be important to Crosspool

[aggi]

Does anybody dispute that the EU has broken the law first? By breaching Article 184 of the Withdrawal Agreement which promises to use best endeavour and negotiate in good faith to deliver the political declaration.

The PD is now about a free trade deal, and Barnier has explicitly said (stupidly) that we cannot have an agreement like Canada because we are too big and too close.

I suspect it is hard to prove, which is why the lawyers have resigned, but for ordinary people they will look at this and say the WA needs ripping up, because it threatens the Union if there is no FTA (by leaving NI so impoverished due to restrictions on GB —-> NI trade that the public feel there is no choice but to join a united Ireland).

I recall that Selmayr chap suggesting losing NI will be the price we pay for Brexit.

So personally I’m comfortable with this, but the UK has to push the good faith line, it hasn’t proven very good at selling this kind of move in the past. They’ve messed up a few things recently, albeit in uniquely tough circumstances.

Does anybody dispute that the EU has broken the law first?

Everyone apart from you (and maybe Ringo).

If you're suggesting that the EU hasn't used best endeavours because they've refused to compromise on certain areas then you'd have to apply the same rule to the UK.

Do you really think the UK wouldn't be trumpeting that if it was an angle they thought had even a reasonable hope of success?

[RingoMcCartney]

You didn’t predict it’d only be important to Crosspool

I hadn't realised pantomime season had started early!

Oh yes I did!!

(Given , I said it in January 2019.)

Final answer.

[Spijed]

Does anybody dispute that the EU has broken the law first?

Everyone apart from you (and maybe Ringo).

If you're suggesting that the EU hasn't used best endeavours because they've refused to compromise on certain areas then you'd have to apply the same rule to the UK.

Do you really think the UK wouldn't be trumpeting that if it was an angle they thought had even a reasonable hope of success?

And it's fairly obvious that if the EU had broken the law first then the government would have been shouting this from the roof tops, and on a regular basis.

[martin_p]

I hadn't realised pantomime season had started early!

Oh yes I did!!

(Given , I said it in January 2019.)

Final answer.

My post was only nine words long, I’d have thought you’d have managed to read them all.

Ok, have it your own way, you correctly predicted that ‘best endeavours’ would only be important to Crosspool. Well done! (although to be fair I think we all knew he’d come up with something irrelevant to try and defend the government).

[RingoMcCartney]

Why does mysticism trigger !?.....

Anyway, have a great day folks

[martin_p]

Why does mysticism trigger !?.....

Anyway, have a great day folks

Your mysticism triggers people to make you look a fool because such an open goal is just too tempting!

[mkmel]

Scathing but oh so true comments

BBC News - Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary calls UK travel quarantine 'a shambles'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54085439

[martin_p]

Let's see how things develop shall we...

So the text of the bill has been published confirming the uk’s plans to break the Withdrawal Agreement.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Does anybody dispute that the EU has broken the law first?

Everyone apart from you (and maybe Ringo).

If you're suggesting that the EU hasn't used best endeavours because they've refused to compromise on certain areas then you'd have to apply the same rule to the UK.

Do you really think the UK wouldn't be trumpeting that if it was an angle they thought had even a reasonable hope of success?

To be fair, this is the perfect example of an issue where Rejoiners will say one side is right and Brexiteers will say the other.

There are loads of Brexiteers arguing this - here is one example in an article. He quite succinctly also identifies the desire of many for economic self-flagellation just to be proven right. I can just about accept that mentality over the EU, but we see it over China and elsewhere too, which I find pathetic but there we go.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/0 ... all-along/

I think we (should) all know that this problem will have a political solution so this is just thrust and counter thrust. They are probably also trying to provoke a few permanent secretaries to leave, which again doesn’t affect us (and as someone who agrees with the Cummings view of the civil service, no bad thing). In the rare event of WTO terms though, it will be interesting to see who blinks first on these issues.

[martin_p]

To be fair, this is the perfect example of an issue where Rejoiners will say one side is right and Brexiteers will say the other.

There are loads of Brexiteers arguing this - here is one example in an article. He quite succinctly also identifies the desire of many for economic self-flagellation just to be proven right. I can just about accept that mentality over the EU, but we see it over China and elsewhere too, which I find pathetic but there we go.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/0 ... all-along/

I think we (should) all know that this problem will have a political solution so this is just thrust and counter thrust. They are probably also trying to provoke a few permanent secretaries to leave, which again doesn’t affect us (and as someone who agrees with the Cummings view of the civil service, no bad thing). In the rare event of WTO terms though, it will be interesting to see who blinks first on these issues.

They can argue it until they’re blue in the face, there’s only one party planning to break the agreement.

But even if it were legally arguable that ‘best endeavours’ hadn’t been met I’m not sure how you’d only apply it to the EU. On fishing the U.K. has taken one position and the EU another and neither has budged, how is one better than the other?

[tiger76]

To be fair, this is the perfect example of an issue where Rejoiners will say one side is right and Brexiteers will say the other.

There are loads of Brexiteers arguing this - here is one example in an article. He quite succinctly also identifies the desire of many for economic self-flagellation just to be proven right. I can just about accept that mentality over the EU, but we see it over China and elsewhere too, which I find pathetic but there we go.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/0 ... all-along/

I think we (should) all know that this problem will have a political solution so this is just thrust and counter thrust. They are probably also trying to provoke a few permanent secretaries to leave, which again doesn’t affect us (and as someone who agrees with the Cummings view of the civil service, no bad thing). In the rare event of WTO terms though, it will be interesting to see who blinks first on these issues.

Well I'm a Brexiteer, and in my view this government have no regard for international laws and treaties, how this is going to look to other nations who we are supposedly attempting to agree trade agreements with goodness only knows, why should they trust the UK government when it changes it mind on a WA that was supposedly already signed and sealed, it's like a football club signing a player, and then 6 months later deciding it wasn't the right move for them, that's as maybe, but legally they're still contractually obliged to honour their contract to both the player and the selling club, is it any wonder we're a laughing stock in the world, if we can't even agree the WA which was apparently fait accompli a year ago, then there's no chance of agreeing a decent workable trade deal in the next 5 weeks, but then I suspect that is the government's intention, and when it falls apart they'll play the usual tactic of blaming the EU, well their bluster won't wash with me, if we don't get a trade deal. I'll know who to hold accountable, and they'll pay the price at the next election.

[Top Claret]

We were a damned site bigger laughing stock when Theresa May was dithering going to and from Brussels grovelling.
Good to see this tory government are showing a bit of back bone as far as the EU are concerned and making them come to daddy

[martin_p]

We were a damned site bigger laughing stock when Theresa May was dithering going to and from Brussels grovelling.
Good to see this tory government are showing a bit of back bone as far as the EU are concerned and making them come to daddy

You think? Trying to negotiate a deal we wanted was better than caving in on a border down the Irish Sea then less than a year later saying ‘yeah, we’ll we had our fingers crossed behind our backs so that deal doesn’t count’?

[tiger76]

We were a damned site bigger laughing stock when Theresa May was dithering going to and from Brussels grovelling.
Good to see this tory government are showing a bit of back bone as far as the EU are concerned and making them come to daddy

We'll see what occurs with this tactic, maybe it will work, but I have grave doubts, I actually think the EU are thoroughly cheesed off with the whole debacle, and I'm not convinced that these antics will help us to make any progress in the trade talks which have restarted again, there's too many areas of disagreement, notably around fisheries and state aid, for an amicable deal to be sorted before the end of this year, we might get a stopgap arrangement which enables both parties to take stock, and more importantly keep the freight moving, and no doubt in such a scenario both sides will claim they've got what they wanted, but they'd both be lying through gritted teeth.

[Top Claret]

We do what we have to do do for the long term future of the country outside the EU.

It is in the best interest of all parties that a deal is reached. The politicians in Brussels are just playing power politics and are not representing the best interest of the 27 countries.

[martin_p]

We do what we have to do do for the long term future of the country outside the EU.

It is in the best interest of all parties that a deal is reached. The politicians in Brussels are just playing power politics and are not representing the best interest of the 27 countries.

Again, really?

Have the EU said they want to rewrite part of a legally binding international agreement signed less than a year ago?

Is it good for the long term economic future of the country that the huge trading bloc we have on our door step don’t trust us?

[TheFamilyCat]

We do what we have to do do for the long term future of the country outside the EU.

It is in the best interest of all parties that a deal is reached. The politicians in Brussels are just playing power politics and are not representing the best interest of the 27 countries.

While our government plays power politics not representing the best interests of its population.

Bit of a shitshow, isn't it?

[Top Claret]

The country voted this government in on the under standing that they would take us out of the EU, deal or no deal.

A deal would be preferable but not any old deal that would not make us a totally independent country, that would have been the May deal

If it means a no deal then so be it. Has far as disruption at the ports is concerned this would have a bigger impact on the EU side than ours

[martin_p]

The country voted this government in on the under standing that they would take us out of the EU, deal or no deal.

A deal would be preferable but not any old deal that would not make us a totally independent country, that would have been the May deal

If it means a no deal then so be it. Has far as disruption at the ports is concerned this would have a bigger impact on the EU side than ours

We’re not talking about the deal to be negotiated we’re talking about the agreement we’ve already signed and the government used as the basis for its ‘getting Brexit done’ claim as part of the election.

The government negotiated it, used it as part of its election campaign, got it through the commons, signed it with the EU to take us out of the union and now want to change it because Boris Johnson made a number of claims that weren’t supported by the agreement he’d negotiated and signed up to.

The agreement is legally binding whether we agree a trade deal or not.

Would you buy a used car off this man?

[aggi]

To be fair, this is the perfect example of an issue where Rejoiners will say one side is right and Brexiteers will say the other.

There are loads of Brexiteers arguing this - here is one example in an article. He quite succinctly also identifies the desire of many for economic self-flagellation just to be proven right. I can just about accept that mentality over the EU, but we see it over China and elsewhere too, which I find pathetic but there we go.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/0 ... all-along/

I think we (should) all know that this problem will have a political solution so this is just thrust and counter thrust. They are probably also trying to provoke a few permanent secretaries to leave, which again doesn’t affect us (and as someone who agrees with the Cummings view of the civil service, no bad thing). In the rare event of WTO terms though, it will be interesting to see who blinks first on these issues.

Agreed, it is an area where it's unlikely we'll agree. But on the one side you have the conservative party openly admitting that what they are doing will break international law and on the other side you have a Brexit Party MEP, with a background in PR, writing on a right wing website that the nasty EU is being mean to us.

You can tell from the first few paragraphs that it's a poor article, that well-worn trope of remainers wanting the country to fail, regardless of how many jobs it costs, etc in order to avoid having to actually argue the opposite point of why this will be a success. Realism and pragmatism doesn't equate to wanting the country to fail, the only people to blame for the lack of sunlit uplands and easiest trade deal in history is the people who promised those things. There's precious little to be positive about and pretty much the only answer to what is going to be better post-brexit is fewer immigrants.

I asked you previously what you thought the benefits for East Lancashire would be and you avoided answering. If a strong proponent of Brexit such as yourself can't rattle off half a dozen positives from the top of your head you can see why people with the opposite view may be a bit negative.

I agree with your point about provoking permanent secretaries but I'm not sure about the doesn't affect us part. We've already seen how bereft of talent the cabinet is with it being filled with yes men, simultaneously doing that to the civil service too whilst going through the most disruptive period in the past 50 years or so of the country's history seems unwise to me.

[aggi]

We do what we have to do do for the long term future of the country outside the EU.

It is in the best interest of all parties that a deal is reached. The politicians in Brussels are just playing power politics and are not representing the best interest of the 27 countries.

Given that those politicians in Brussels are beholden to those 27 countries that doesn't seem like a sensible move from them. How come they're still in their jobs if they've gone rogue like this?

[martin_p]

Given that those politicians in Brussels are beholden to those 27 countries that doesn't seem like a sensible move from them. How come they're still in their jobs if they've gone rogue like this?

Come on aggi, haven’t you been paying attention, because the EU is an undemocratic organisation run by unaccountable beurocrats. They can’t get rid of them!

[aggi]

Come on aggi, haven’t you been paying attention, because the EU is an undemocratic organisation run by unaccountable beurocrats. They can’t get rid of them!

That's not strictly true, sometimes it's run by the Germans. I'm not sure how people choose which option they're going to go for.

[AndrewJB]

To be fair, this is the perfect example of an issue where Rejoiners will say one side is right and Brexiteers will say the other.

There are loads of Brexiteers arguing this - here is one example in an article. He quite succinctly also identifies the desire of many for economic self-flagellation just to be proven right. I can just about accept that mentality over the EU, but we see it over China and elsewhere too, which I find pathetic but there we go.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/0 ... all-along/

I think we (should) all know that this problem will have a political solution so this is just thrust and counter thrust. They are probably also trying to provoke a few permanent secretaries to leave, which again doesn’t affect us (and as someone who agrees with the Cummings view of the civil service, no bad thing). In the rare event of WTO terms though, it will be interesting to see who blinks first on these issues.

That article really brings home the hate and anger some people foster as a result of Brexit. I’ve never wished Ill on our country, and never will. I’m not pleased about the the state of the negotiations, and I’m also not surprised. I never thought a deal would be straightforward and easy.

The writer is indulging in the most breathtaking hypocrisy of taking a course of action that people warned would not go well, and then blaming those same people for the failure of the project. It tells us of the character and integrity of these people that even having won the referendum, they refuse to take any responsibility for the shortcomings. Why are you not angry with the people who made false promises? It’s all there in black and white. We now know they were either lying or stupid. You were led by donkeys or you were conned. What you cannot do now is blame me. If you go back over every one of my posts you’ll never find me gloating. But even if I did, what shred of difference would that make, in the face of the actions taken by the government to bring us to where we are today?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So we can blame the gov but not the people who kept throwing up more obstacles, delayed the leave process and even now refuse to accept what's happened?

Good to know.

[TheFamilyCat]

So we can blame the gov but not the people who kept throwing up more obstacles, delayed the leave process and even now refuse to accept what's happened?

Good to know.

Yes, two governments have failed in this whole process (Cameron's and May's). Johnson's appears to be becoming the third after winning an election based on bluster and lies.

They have had far more influence than anyone else on where we are so have to be the first to be held to account.

[AndrewJB]

So we can blame the gov but not the people who kept throwing up more obstacles, delayed the leave process and even now refuse to accept what's happened?

Good to know.

The attempts by some to apply brakes to a brexit that was turning into a car crash - if that’s what you mean by “throwing up obstacles” - failed. Your path is clear and unimpeded (except by reality). Brexit is now is all yours.

[RingoMcCartney]

Yes, two governments have failed in this whole process (Cameron's and May's). Johnson's appears to be becoming the third after winning an election based on bluster and lies.

They have had far more influence than anyone else on where we are so have to be the first to be held to account.

The UK left the EU at 11 p.m. GMT on 31 January 2020.


Thank you.

[Spijed]

The UK left the EU at 11 p.m. GMT on 31 January 2020.


Thank you.

And a date that will be remembered with regret by many.

[martin_p]

So we can blame the gov but not the people who kept throwing up more obstacles, delayed the leave process and even now refuse to accept what's happened?

Good to know.

When you say ‘obstacles’ I think the words you were looking for are ‘democratic process’. Besides, the current government can hardly throw accusations at anyone having been part of the rejection of May’s deal and then voting through a deal they now want to change!

[aggi]

When you say ‘obstacles’ I think the words you were looking for are ‘democratic process’. Besides, the current government can hardly throw accusations at anyone having been part of the rejection of May’s deal and then voting through a deal they now want to change!

Nah, definitely obstacles. Remember that obstacle where MPs actually wanted time to read, review and debate the withdrawal agreement. I think we can all agree that would have been entirely pointless because there certainly aren't any issues with it.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The attempts by some to apply brakes to a brexit that was turning into a car crash - if that’s what you mean by “throwing up obstacles” - failed. Your path is clear and unimpeded (except by reality). Brexit is now is all yours.

So if its all mine (brexiteers) then why is it still dominating your life on here?
Your lot tell us that we won and to get over it, but here you are everyday whinging.

[martin_p]

So if its all mine (brexiteers) then why is it still dominating your life on here?
Your lot tell us that we won and to get over it, but here you are everyday whinging.

You’re right, remain lost. I’m sure the government will ensure that remain voters are protected from the economic fallout and that all the pain lands on Brexit voters. I’m sure they won’t mind if I exercise my old rights to free movement as well. How could I possibly think that something I didn’t vote for wouldn’t effect me!

[tiger76]

Nah, definitely obstacles. Remember that obstacle where MPs actually wanted time to read, review and debate the withdrawal agreement. I think we can all agree that would have been entirely pointless because there certainly aren't any issues with it.

It's curious that these Irish border issues are only being highlighted by BJ and his government now, surely the same problems were apparent last year, when he willingly signed the WA into law, so why make a big song and dance now, maybe if he and his ministers had actually bothered to peruse the document in full before putting their names to it, we wouldn't be in this mess, but that sums this government up, all bluster and rhetoric, and no time for detail, in a negotiation such as this the devil is in the detail, and the more information the public hears the worse it gets, of course the defence is that this is only a back-up plan in the event of no deal, but I would give long odds against a deal being agreed prior to the end of the transition phase, and where that leaves us is anyone's guess.

I can certainly see the union breaking up, a united Ireland can't be ruled out, and both Scotland and Wales are pushing for independence referendums, which in the case of Scotland is likely to produce a yes vote on this occasion.

So Boris Johnson's legacy could be the end of a 300 year union, which is ironic given he's supposedly a staunch defender of the union, he and the Conservative party have completely misread the mood of the Scottish electorate, and they'll only realise this folly when the results emerge in next May's Holyrood elections, I do think many just don't care as long as they get their desired brexit outcome, but history will not judge them well I'm afraid.