That's up to the EU. I doubt they are hoping to go through the whole of Brexit without changing any laws. Besides, why wouldn't they change it? If by changing the law so that the UK is to be treated the same as Switzerland at passport control - not a hugely difficult change, I wouldn't have thought - means that their citizens can travel to the UK as conveniently as they do now; then why not? Is there any positive reason why the EU would like their citizens to be inconvenienced in travel to the UK?
Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Perhaps if the U.K. had the same relationship with the EU as Switzerland the EU would treat us like Switzerland.dsr wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:11 amThat's up to the EU. I doubt they are hoping to go through the whole of Brexit without changing any laws. Besides, why wouldn't they change it? If by changing the law so that the UK is to be treated the same as Switzerland at passport control - not a hugely difficult change, I wouldn't have thought - means that their citizens can travel to the UK as conveniently as they do now; then why not? Is there any positive reason why the EU would like their citizens to be inconvenienced in travel to the UK?
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
That was the promise: All the advantages, without the disadvantages.
Most of our resident financial experts will tell you this is a con. Some of them are too busy explaining why we can’t afford to feed poor children.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
We are the country leaving. And we have set out that we want complete freedom. So as we cut all ties with the EU, it’s not surprising we find ourselves cutting ties we actually like. We already knew the EU laws. Why didn’t we figure this out before?dsr wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:11 amThat's up to the EU. I doubt they are hoping to go through the whole of Brexit without changing any laws. Besides, why wouldn't they change it? If by changing the law so that the UK is to be treated the same as Switzerland at passport control - not a hugely difficult change, I wouldn't have thought - means that their citizens can travel to the UK as conveniently as they do now; then why not? Is there any positive reason why the EU would like their citizens to be inconvenienced in travel to the UK?
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Is there any positive reason why the EU would like their citizens to be inconvenienced in travel to the UK? I don't see any benefit to the EU in saying that the UK has left so we will make it less convenient for our citizens to visit the UK.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
The EU won't inconveniencing their citizens in travelling to the UK. That will be a UK decision.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
The UK can want all it likes, dsr. It doesn't matter. Our government chose to give up our membership of the EU. They then chose to distance themselves even further by rejecting EEA membership, and membership of the Customs Union. They then chose not to extend the transition period.
So it's a bit late in the day to start getting upset at the inevitable loss of benefits that EU membership provided.
And in the grand scheme of things, this is nothing. Our departure from the single market and customs union will have huge consequences.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
There is a good reason for the EU to do this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... de-says-eu
All of this was brought up during the referendum, but was described as project fear. It looks as though Project Stupid won the argument.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Are you referring to the EU repeatedly blackmailing Switzerland?
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Hi Andrew, there's nothing in the Guardian's article about passports and entry and egress by a UK citizen to the EU, nor the equivalent for EU passport holders passing through UK border controls. What has any proposed changes to UK data protection laws got to do with passports and people travelling through border controls?AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:40 pmThere is a good reason for the EU to do this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... de-says-eu
All of this was brought up during the referendum, but was described as project fear. It looks as though Project Stupid won the argument.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
I linked the wrong article. Sorry. That one could answer the questions you had about Cummings wanting to change data protection laws though.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:54 pmHi Andrew, there's nothing in the Guardian's article about passports and entry and egress by a UK citizen to the EU, nor the equivalent for EU passport holders passing through UK border controls. What has any proposed changes to UK data protection laws got to do with passports and people travelling through border controls?
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Maybe Project Stupid won the argument because Project Cleverdick couldn't manage internet links properly.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:40 pmThere is a good reason for the EU to do this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... de-says-eu
All of this was brought up during the referendum, but was described as project fear. It looks as though Project Stupid won the argument.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
???? Is there an article about border controls and passports? My question about "Cummings wanting to change" GDPR was because someone said that was what made the EU block UK passport holders from using EU e-gates.
If you have a link to the "right" article, I'll be pleased to read it.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Nope.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:44 pmAre you referring to the EU repeatedly blackmailing Switzerland?
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Well Switzerlands relationship with the EU is usually quite cordial, agreements in place etc, until the Swiss start getting ideas above their station in the eyes of the EU.
That's when the EU start dishing out the threats, usually financial stuff.
I'm not sure what other relationship you're referring too.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
I’ve looked but I can’t find the link I had. It was a blog, and the relevant point was just that EU law set aside those gates for specific passport holders. So as it stands we won’t be able to use them. Hopefully we’ll be able to reach a mutual agreement, but if not at least we’ll have blue passports.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:04 pm???? Is there an article about border controls and passports? My question about "Cummings wanting to change" GDPR was because someone said that was what made the EU block UK passport holders from using EU e-gates.
If you have a link to the "right" article, I'll be pleased to read it.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Note how apparently its EU law that restricts who can use e-gates, yet we have been letting none EU citizens use them for a while... I don't recall the UK facing punishment for this, can anyone confirm either way?AndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:42 pmI’ve looked but I can’t find the link I had. It was a blog, and the relevant point was just that EU law set aside those gates for specific passport holders. So as it stands we won’t be able to use them. Hopefully we’ll be able to reach a mutual agreement, but if not at least we’ll have blue passports.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Isnt the difference that these countrys have to sign up to certain EU standards overseen by the CJEU whereas the UK refuse on the principle it will not compromise on its sovereignty even though it states it has no intention on want to to fall below these standardsGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:48 pmNote how apparently its EU law that restricts who can use e-gates, yet we have been letting none EU citizens use them for a while... I don't recall the UK facing punishment for this, can anyone confirm either way?
Screenshot_20201024_234613_com.android.chrome.jpg
Seems like as the UK left the EU then the ball is in our court to choose if we compromise on signing up to their rules for the ability to use the EU e gates. That seems more balanced than the UK deciding to leave the EU, then refusing to compromise on signing up to the EU rules and instead expecting the EU to compromise and allow us access without the normal commitments that the other countrys are rrequired to make
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
So we haven't been punished for doing something that's apparently against EU law then?Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:59 pmIsnt the difference that these countrys have to sign up to certain EU standards overseen by the CJEU whereas the UK refuse on the principle it will not compromise on its sovereignty even though it states it has no intention on want to to fall below these standards
Seems like as the UK left the EU then the ball is in our court to choose if we compromise on signing up to their rules for the ability to use the EU e gates. That seems more balanced than the UK deciding to leave the EU, then refusing to compromise on signing up to the EU rules and instead expecting the EU to compromise and allow us access without the normal commitments that the other countrys are rrequired to make
That's all I asked, that was it.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
That quote was in the blog I saw. It could have been to do with the Schengen Agreement, which we didn’t join. It could be we were outriders and it was just the other 27 who signed up to it. Either way it shows that our membership didn’t put us under the heel, as so many brexiters claim we were.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:48 pmNote how apparently its EU law that restricts who can use e-gates, yet we have been letting none EU citizens use them for a while... I don't recall the UK facing punishment for this, can anyone confirm either way?
Screenshot_20201024_234613_com.android.chrome.jpg
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
No my understanding (and im sure its more complicated and not exactly as I have stated) is that by leaving the EU we now no longer need to comply to their data and security standards (which cover a lot more than just this single issue).GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:00 amSo we haven't been punished for doing something that's apparently against EU law then?
That's all I asked, that was it.
Im not sure if the EU would need to have to spend the time and effort changing their law or if they could implement a more straightforward exception but equally we could make a simple compromise to our position which as we're the ones whose withdrawn and we're the ones looking to benefit seems to be the fairest solution
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Some like the UK charge either a one off or annual fee, but Germany doesn't and it lasts for the duration of the passport.
So the EU trying to block access when their member states can already circumvate the laws is a bit odd.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
How exactly do EU rules specify that countries like the UK can't use the system? And how does Germany get round letting American citizens use it? Has the USA signed up to oversight by the CJEU? I doubt it.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:59 pmIsnt the difference that these countrys have to sign up to certain EU standards overseen by the CJEU whereas the UK refuse on the principle it will not compromise on its sovereignty even though it states it has no intention on want to to fall below these standards
Seems like as the UK left the EU then the ball is in our court to choose if we compromise on signing up to their rules for the ability to use the EU e gates. That seems more balanced than the UK deciding to leave the EU, then refusing to compromise on signing up to the EU rules and instead expecting the EU to compromise and allow us access without the normal commitments that the other countrys are rrequired to make
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
See my other post, the EU law can and is ignored by its member states if they feel like doing it.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:07 amNo my understanding (and im sure its more complicated and not exactly as I have stated) is that by leaving the EU we now no longer need to comply to their data and security standards (which cover a lot more than just this single issue).
Im not sure if the EU would need to have to spend the time and effort changing their law or if they could implement a more straightforward exception but equally we could make a simple compromise to our position which as we're the ones whose withdrawn and we're the ones looking to benefit seems to be the fairest solution
I'm sure somewhere like Spain will put something in place seeing as more Brits holiday there annually than any other nationality.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Easypass is open to citizens of the EU, European Economic Area and Switzerland and other registered third party countrys. So the key is that third party countrys need to register and will need to agree to whatever terms the EU requireGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:11 amSee my other post, the EU law can and is ignored by its member states if they feel like doing it.
I'm sure somewhere like Spain will put something in place seeing as more Brits holiday there annually than any other nationality.
What those terms are im not sure and im sure the UK could register too so I dont see how this changes my previous response.
https://www.easypass.de/EasyPass/EN/Who ... _node.html
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
As per my answer to Sid the USA has had to register as can the UK. What is unclear is what the terms of the registration is but until the UK apply and agree to the terms like the US have done then they cant use the system just like the US didnt used to be able to
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Easypass is specific to Germany, we have a different system as does Portugal I think it was.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:19 amAs per my answer to Sid the USA has had to register as can the UK. What is unclear is what the terms of the registration is but until the UK apply and agree to the terms like the US have done then they cant use the system just like the US didnt used to be able to
As those systems are unique in a way to each country, would non EU countries be negotiating with said country or with the EU?
If its the EU why have 3 different systems and why only those 3 countries?
It doesn't make any sense, which would suggest non EU countries aren't speaking directly to the EU, but just to the member country and potentially having different agreements with each country.
I could well be wrong and its the EU agreeing those systems with each individual non EU country, but that's just odd.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
The question remains, does the government know this? Maybe you could forward the link. Then perhaps the government could hire someone from SERCO on £7k a day to read your email, and explain it to them with a cave drawing?Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:19 amAs per my answer to Sid the USA has had to register as can the UK. What is unclear is what the terms of the registration is but until the UK apply and agree to the terms like the US have done then they cant use the system just like the US didnt used to be able to
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
The real question is who do we draw up the agreement with, Germany or the EU?
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Its a German queue jumping initiative using the e gates and as all countrys of the EU are standardised then all of them can automatically use the system without the country having to registerGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:24 amEasypass is specific to Germany, we have a different system as does Portugal I think it was.
As those systems are unique in a way to each country, would non EU countries be negotiating with said country or with the EU?
If its the EU why have 3 different systems and why only those 3 countries?
It doesn't make any sense, which would suggest non EU countries aren't speaking directly to the EU, but just to the member country and potentially having different agreements with each country.
I could well be wrong and its the EU agreeing those systems with each individual non EU country, but that's just odd.
3rd party countys will have to register and even if that is directly with Germany it will need to agree terms that meet the wider EU standards that Germany as part of the EU has to meet
We are making ourselves a 3rd party country so we will have to apply to whoever runs the scheme but we cant just automatically use it without going through that process just like every other 3rd party country
I dont see how the EU is doing anything other than treating us like every other non EU country which is what we have chosen to be
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Not really because if our govt wants to sign up then im sure they will be privy to that info. The real question to me is why people think the EU is treating us unfairly when they are just treating us like they treat any 3rd party countrysGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:30 amThe real question is who do we draw up the agreement with, Germany or the EU?
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
If it's Germany we have to negotiate access to easypass with, then it doesn't matter what the EU says about the matter.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:34 amNot really because if our govt wants to sign up then im sure they will be privy to that info. The real question to me is why people think the EU is treating us unfairly when they are just treating us like they treat any 3rd party countrys
Same if Spain decided to arrange a deal with the UK due to the revenue generated by tourism, which is usually a vast amount.
I don't think they're being unfair by the way, but standing in a queue in the airport isn't life ending for me, I've travelled outside of the EU and I've never been to Spain, doesn't appeal to me.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Easy enough then to meet those standards, we've already got them so shouldn't take long to sort out between the UK and Germany.Devils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:32 amIts a German queue jumping initiative using the e gates and as all countrys of the EU are standardised then all of them can automatically use the system without the country having to register
3rd party countys will have to register and even if that is directly with Germany it will need to agree terms that meet the wider EU standards that Germany as part of the EU has to meet
We are making ourselves a 3rd party country so we will have to apply to whoever runs the scheme but we cant just automatically use it without going through that process just like every other 3rd party country
I dont see how the EU is doing anything other than treating us like every other non EU country which is what we have chosen to be
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
I’ve travelled throughout Europe & never not had to stand in a queue so it’s nothing like what we aren’t used to, it’s understandable with the checking in & security & to be honest I prefer that way longer the better than somebody boarding a plan carrying Semtex or whatever goes into an explosive vest.GodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:37 amIf it's Germany we have to negotiate access to easypass with, then it doesn't matter what the EU says about the matter.
Same if Spain decided to arrange a deal with the UK due to the revenue generated by tourism, which is usually a vast amount.
I don't think they're being unfair by the way, but standing in a queue in the airport isn't life ending for me, I've travelled outside of the EU and I've never been to Spain, doesn't appeal to me.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
No but you do realise that once the UK has enrolled that doesnt mean UK citizens can use the systemGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:38 amEasy enough then to meet those standards, we've already got them so shouldn't take long to sort out between the UK and Germany.
Each individual has to register and complete enrollment with the German govt before using and consent to giving them personal data and allowing them to use it as per the terms of the registration
Secondly this doesnt skip border controls but just puts them in a quicker line. Where as EU citizens just goes through the gates if you are from a third party country the gates flash and a border guard comes and opens the door. You then have to go to the monitoring booth, which is located directly behind the EasyPASS gate where an officer will then check the additional entry requirements and stamp the passport
This system is separate to the normal e gate system and is something Germany has probably invested in to encourage tourism but make no mistake it is just an electronic queue jump system and not the full egate procedure that we currently have as members of the EU now
But yes we can definitely apply and im sure we'll have no problem getting approved so not sure what we're disagreeing on around this easypass system
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Just to add it also states that not every citizen will be accepted on to the scheme
Personal eligibility for participation in EasyPASS-RTP
Since EasyPASS-RTP is an automated procedure, high public security requirements must be met. Therefore, travellers need to be particularly trustworthy to be eligible for participation.
Personal eligibility for participation in EasyPASS-RTP
Since EasyPASS-RTP is an automated procedure, high public security requirements must be met. Therefore, travellers need to be particularly trustworthy to be eligible for participation.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
I was in Minneapolis the same year that idiot shoe bomber had a go at blowing up his plane...Jakubclaret wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:49 amI’ve travelled throughout Europe & never not had to stand in a queue so it’s nothing like what we aren’t used to, it’s understandable with the checking in & security & to be honest I prefer that way longer the better than somebody boarding a plan carrying Semtex or whatever goes into an explosive vest.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
We aren't disagreeing as such, just discussing the finer details of it because I'm not fully clued up on it, nor are you, but I've definitely learnt some stuff about it tonightDevils_Advocate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:50 amNo but you do realise that once the UK has enrolled that doesnt mean UK citizens can use the system
Each individual has to register and complete enrollment with the German govt before using and consent to giving them personal data and allowing them to use it as per the terms of the registration
Secondly this doesnt skip border controls but just puts them in a quicker line. Where as EU citizens just goes through the gates if you are from a third party country the gates flash and a border guard comes and opens the door. You then have to go to the monitoring booth, which is located directly behind the EasyPASS gate where an officer will then check the additional entry requirements and stamp the passport
This system is separate to the normal e gate system and is something Germany has probably invested in to encourage tourism but make no mistake it is just an electronic queue jump system and not the full egate procedure that we currently have as members of the EU now
But yes we can definitely apply and im sure we'll have no problem getting approved so not sure what we're disagreeing on around this easypass system
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Thank god for that cos im too old to be trying to concentrate at this time of nightGodIsADeeJay81 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:58 amWe aren't disagreeing as such, just discussing the finer details of it because I'm not fully clued up on it, nor are you, but I've definitely learnt some stuff about it tonight
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Post-Brexit trade talks extended, says No 10https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54681400
They must think a deal is in the offing if talks are continuing, so let's hope sanity prevails.
They must think a deal is in the offing if talks are continuing, so let's hope sanity prevails.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
tell me it isn't so, pages of the bed wetter howling because BJ wasn't man enough to end it 15 Oct like he said and then followed up by 180 degree swivels when he did, this should bring them out in force again but it wont be to say well done BJ your tactics just might have worked.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:46 pmPost-Brexit trade talks extended, says No 10https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54681400
They must think a deal is in the offing if talks are continuing, so let's hope sanity prevails.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Hi Andrew, take a look at this link: www.icao.int/Security/FAL/PKD/Pages/ePa ... asics.aspxAndrewJB wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:42 pmI’ve looked but I can’t find the link I had. It was a blog, and the relevant point was just that EU law set aside those gates for specific passport holders. So as it stands we won’t be able to use them. Hopefully we’ll be able to reach a mutual agreement, but if not at least we’ll have blue passports.
ICAO - International Civil Aviation Organization, a specialised agency of the United Nations, is the body that defines passport standards "that are treated as recommendations to national governments," including the (fairly) recent ePassport requirements.
Extract from the link:
ePassport Basics
"There are more than 100 States and non-state entities (i.e. United Nations) currently issuing ePassports, and over 490 million ePassports in circulation. ePassports add a layer of security to traditional non‑electronic passports by embedding an electronic chip in the passport booklet that stores the biographical information visible on page 2 of the passport, as well as a digital security feature. This digital security feature is a country specific "digital signature." These digital signatures are unique to each country and can be verified using their respective certificates."
There's also a wikipedia entry re passports - a lot of background on the development and use of passports - some early history - and generally development during and after WW1.
The EU gets a couple of mentions. The key one, which I guess may or may not be the source of the comments on EU "law" is indicated by this statement: "Member states that participate in the Schengen Agreement have agreed that their e-passports should contain fingerprint information in the chip." Council Regulation 2252/2004 "on standards for security features and biometrics in passports and travel documents issued by Member States." 13-Dec-2004.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Thanks Paul. I’ll have a look.Paul Waine wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:49 pmHi Andrew, take a look at this link: www.icao.int/Security/FAL/PKD/Pages/ePa ... asics.aspx
ICAO - International Civil Aviation Organization, a specialised agency of the United Nations, is the body that defines passport standards "that are treated as recommendations to national governments," including the (fairly) recent ePassport requirements.
Extract from the link:
ePassport Basics
"There are more than 100 States and non-state entities (i.e. United Nations) currently issuing ePassports, and over 490 million ePassports in circulation. ePassports add a layer of security to traditional non‑electronic passports by embedding an electronic chip in the passport booklet that stores the biographical information visible on page 2 of the passport, as well as a digital security feature. This digital security feature is a country specific "digital signature." These digital signatures are unique to each country and can be verified using their respective certificates."
There's also a wikipedia entry re passports - a lot of background on the development and use of passports - some early history - and generally development during and after WW1.
The EU gets a couple of mentions. The key one, which I guess may or may not be the source of the comments on EU "law" is indicated by this statement: "Member states that participate in the Schengen Agreement have agreed that their e-passports should contain fingerprint information in the chip." Council Regulation 2252/2004 "on standards for security features and biometrics in passports and travel documents issued by Member States." 13-Dec-2004.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
The Department for International Trade are trying pretty hard:
What's missing from the small print there is that they don't mean cheaper than it is at the moment, they mean cheaper than if we left the EU and then dealt with Japan on WTO terms.
What's missing from the small print there is that they don't mean cheaper than it is at the moment, they mean cheaper than if we left the EU and then dealt with Japan on WTO terms.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
Most of the soy sauce sold in the U.K. comes from Holland and Poland, so if we don’t get a tarrif free deal with the EU, it will in fact be more expensive.
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Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
What are the barriers to entry in the Soy Sauce market? Looks like there’s a market for a new supplier in the UK. Soybeans, wheat, salt and yeast.
Re: Wow BJ eviscerates the EU!!!
looks like the Netherlands are going to lose a lot of the Soy Sauce market to the UK, no wonder they are worried