How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
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How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Sorry for the late notice, but I thought this would interest many on here, I also thought it was a one-off, but amazingly it's a 3 part series, and each episode lasts nearly 3 hours, minus the adverts obviously.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
I thought the Yanks won it, that's what they tell us.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Nobody won the war. That’s a ridiculous statement.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
The great historian AJP Taylor started his excellent benchmarking book The History of the Second World War by stating America won the war in the Pacific and the Soviets won the war in Europe.
He was effusive in his praise of Britain's campaign in Africa and our support in the campaign in Italy, but states we would have had to negotiate a face saving deal but for Hitler's monumental error in attacking Russia and attempting to fight on two fronts.
It will be interesting to watch the series to see the conclusions arrived at.
Thank God we have never had to endure what our lads went through.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
It was won by extremely brave men who put their lives on the line in order to serve their country. My dad was a royal marine commando during the war and took shrapnel fire all over his body whist on the landing craft in what was one of the most stupid raids ever,the Dieppe raid and ended up in hospital for nine months,he was one of the lucky ones that survived out of his division I'm proud of everything he did on behalf if our people.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
People need to stop saying won in regards to wars. You don’t win wars. You win football matches, card games, Snooker matches, not wars. The Nazis were stopped. You don’t win things when millions, upon millions of people lost their lives. It was put to an end, not won.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
We teach history so we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. WW2 is the single worst event in modern history so it’s imperative the events that lead to it aren’t forgotten. The glorification of war is abhorrent, we should remember those who laid down their lives so that future generations don’t have to.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
"Those who have unlearned to cry ..will learn it Afresh" with the Destruction of Dresden. 150.000+ men women and children perished over 3days.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
I think you're taking the official German propaganda figures a bit too much on trust. It's generally reckoned the death toll was about 25,000.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
I suppose the word "won" gives the implication by it being put to an end by the defeat (or whatever other term we might use) of Germany as opposed to being put to an end by simply surrendering. Either act would have put the war to an end, but the results would have been very different.Dyched wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:07 pmPeople need to stop saying won in regards to wars. You don’t win wars. You win football matches, card games, Snooker matches, not wars. The Nazis were stopped. You don’t win things when millions, upon millions of people lost their lives. It was put to an end, not won.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Worth remembering that Russia did not 'win' the war in the East by being a bulwark against Germany but were defending themselves against an aggressor who mad a monumental mistake in attacking them. Let us not forget too that Russia was armed by Britain at a terrible cost to our merchant marine and Royal Navy and the thousands of brave men sent to a watery grave in the Artic Convoys. Evidently the first thing the Russians did when the arms arrived was to remove all markings that identified the tanks etc' as being from the Allies and replacing them with Russian makings as though they had originally built them. It is calculated that it was the allies supply that enabled Russia to hold on and then turn to the offensive.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
"The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Montsarrat is a good fictionalised account of what is was like in those convoys.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
I don't think Germany's attack on Russia was entirely a 'mistake'. It was a mistake in the sense that it was a failure, but Hitler's whole intention in starting a war in Europe was to defeat the Soviet Union and seize vast amounts of land in the East. The attack on France was just a means of ensuring that his aim of destroying the Soviet Union wouldn't be hindered by an attack from Britain and France in the West and his having to fight a war on two fronts. If he was not intent on waging war in the East, he would never have attacked in the West.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
missed this...but watched Lost films of WW2 in BBC 4 over the last two nights. Well worth a watch
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Lets not forget what happened either in 1940 during the Blitz (Blitzkrieg = Lightning war in German)
~40,000[1]–43,000 civilians killed[2]
~46,000 – 139,000 injured[2]
Two million houses destroyed (60 percent of those in London)
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Pure semantics. I see nothing wrong in saying we won the war, or the Germans lost it etc.. Sure if you want to go deeper that's OK but as a general statement it's accurate.Dyched wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:07 pmPeople need to stop saying won in regards to wars. You don’t win wars. You win football matches, card games, Snooker matches, not wars. The Nazis were stopped. You don’t win things when millions, upon millions of people lost their lives. It was put to an end, not won.
Where of course Hitler failed was in not getting air superiority over Britain - the Battle of Britain. As a result he couldn't invade Britain and finish off the war in the West. So what Britain did which the world and especially Europe, should be for ever grateful for, is not lose the war to the Nazis.
It's an interesting question as to what would have happened if the Nazis had not attacked Russia, or more interesting still, had attacked them immediately. I agree it was always there intention to do so and the Ribbentrop - Molotov agreement which divided up Poland between the two and effectively started WW2 was always a temporary measure.
As for the Americans, they were already assisting us with Lend-Lease and convoy escorts before Pearl Harbour in December 1941 brought them fully into the war.
Could we have won the war without the direct participation of the US and Russia? I don't know the answer of course! What nearly brought us to our knees was the U-boat war. We didn't really get to grips with that until 1943 and were supported in this by US ship production as well as their convoy escorts and long range aircraft. Perhaps we would have lost that battle and had to sue for peace. Or we would have become financially bankrupt because of a really long drawn out war.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
These things happen.
In WW1, civilians were not targeted and the population of Germany believed (correctly) that they had been shafted by the Allies, and perhaps that they shouldn't have surrendered; this led to the combined circumstance of a collapsed economy and the breeding ground for popular support of Hitler.
In WW2, civilians were targeted and the population of Germany knew that they had been utterly crushed by the Allies and what they had left was determined by what the Allies chose to give them. This led to the combined circumstances of a booming economy and a population with a distaste for war and knowledge of their own collective guilt.
If civilians hadn't been targeted, how would it have been different?
And if it was a mistake, or was unnecessary, then like I said - these things happen. When you are forced to make big decisions, the mistakes will be big as well. The Dieppe raid was mentioned - a big mistake.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
The Germans were inevitably going to lose WW1. There was a naval blockade which was starving them, and the US had entered the war with its industrial might. The German people may not have felt they had lost the war but that is what was going to happen.dsr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:47 amIn WW1, civilians were not targeted and the population of Germany believed (correctly) that they had been shafted by the Allies, and perhaps that they shouldn't have surrendered; this led to the combined circumstance of a collapsed economy and the breeding ground for popular support of Hitler.
Of course they were punished severely by the Versaille Treaty and that was principally France's doing, but who can blame them. The major amount of WW1 damage had been done in France and Belgium - Germany was virtually untouched. When the Germans left France at the end of the war they stole factories, railway wagons etc. as well as flooding mines. France's economy was devastated and it wouldn't be fair that a new era would start with them so handicapped compared to the Germans.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
The germans had a different agenda to what the allies had. For Germany they would have “won” so to speak. From my point of view at least, when fighting for peace you don’t win. You stop the enemy. We did that at great cost to civilian lives. Like I said, you don’t win wars when those amounts of people died. All those innocent families ripped apart. Not only by the germans but the allied forces. Ask those families who won the war. Nobody. Generations of people whipped out. Nobody won. The germans campaign was ended. No more, no less.Hipper wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:44 amPure semantics. I see nothing wrong in saying we won the war, or the Germans lost it etc.. Sure if you want to go deeper that's OK but as a general statement it's accurate.
Where of course Hitler failed was in not getting air superiority over Britain - the Battle of Britain. As a result he couldn't invade Britain and finish off the war in the West. So what Britain did which the world and especially Europe, should be for ever grateful for, is not lose the war to the Nazis.
It's an interesting question as to what would have happened if the Nazis had not attacked Russia, or more interesting still, had attacked them immediately. I agree it was always there intention to do so and the Ribbentrop - Molotov agreement which divided up Poland between the two and effectively started WW2 was always a temporary measure.
As for the Americans, they were already assisting us with Lend-Lease and convoy escorts before Pearl Harbour in December 1941 brought them fully into the war.
Could we have won the war without the direct participation of the US and Russia? I don't know the answer of course! What nearly brought us to our knees was the U-boat war. We didn't really get to grips with that until 1943 and were supported in this by US ship production as well as their convoy escorts and long range aircraft. Perhaps we would have lost that battle and had to sue for peace. Or we would have become financially bankrupt because of a really long drawn out war.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
In WW1 civilians were targeted, by both the Central Powers and Entente. There’s no other way to describe Germany’s unrestricted U-boat warfare (and bombing), and the Allied blockade.dsr wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:47 amThese things happen.
In WW1, civilians were not targeted and the population of Germany believed (correctly) that they had been shafted by the Allies, and perhaps that they shouldn't have surrendered; this led to the combined circumstance of a collapsed economy and the breeding ground for popular support of Hitler.
In WW2, civilians were targeted and the population of Germany knew that they had been utterly crushed by the Allies and what they had left was determined by what the Allies chose to give them. This led to the combined circumstances of a booming economy and a population with a distaste for war and knowledge of their own collective guilt.
If civilians hadn't been targeted, how would it have been different?
And if it was a mistake, or was unnecessary, then like I said - these things happen. When you are forced to make big decisions, the mistakes will be big as well. The Dieppe raid was mentioned - a big mistake.
And the German Army was militarily defeated at the end. The Hindenburg Line had been breached and the Germans were in retreat. The idea they had been stabbed in the back was an invention.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
I can see your point, but I would describe it as the price of victory. It is semantics on my part, but it’s important for the bereaved to understand their loss as something worthwhile. And I think In a war like WW2, we can honestly describe it as good versus evil. It’s not jingoistic to be happy good triumphed over evil, so to downplay the victory is to both suggest the alternative wouldn’t have been calamitous, and deny people grieving some comfort in their loss.Dyched wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:42 pmThe germans had a different agenda to what the allies had. For Germany they would have “won” so to speak. From my point of view at least, when fighting for peace you don’t win. You stop the enemy. We did that at great cost to civilian lives. Like I said, you don’t win wars when those amounts of people died. All those innocent families ripped apart. Not only by the germans but the allied forces. Ask those families who won the war. Nobody. Generations of people whipped out. Nobody won. The germans campaign was ended. No more, no less.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Been watching the footy, so I'll have to catch that over the weekend, I guess it's similar in content to the C5 programme, thanks for the info, always good to learn new aspects of this conflict, and differing viewpoints to the normal ones expressed.Marney&Mee wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:39 ammissed this...but watched Lost films of WW2 in BBC 4 over the last two nights. Well worth a watch
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
The initial success's led to complacency & the feeling of being invincible, such was the desire for lebensraum central to nazi ideology justifying territorial expansion into central & eastern europe & acheiving that through whatever methods was the ultimate prize, western europe was a distraction not really necessary initially.Erasmus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:31 amI don't think Germany's attack on Russia was entirely a 'mistake'. It was a mistake in the sense that it was a failure, but Hitler's whole intention in starting a war in Europe was to defeat the Soviet Union and seize vast amounts of land in the East. The attack on France was just a means of ensuring that his aim of destroying the Soviet Union wouldn't be hindered by an attack from Britain and France in the West and his having to fight a war on two fronts. If he was not intent on waging war in the East, he would never have attacked in the West.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
It doesn't really matter whether it was an invention or not. If the population of Germany believed they'd been shafted to the extent that they allowed Hitler to take charge, then it was a Bad Thing.AndrewJB wrote: ↑Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:45 pmIn WW1 civilians were targeted, by both the Central Powers and Entente. There’s no other way to describe Germany’s unrestricted U-boat warfare (and bombing), and the Allied blockade.
And the German Army was militarily defeated at the end. The Hindenburg Line had been breached and the Germans were in retreat. The idea they had been stabbed in the back was an invention.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Never ever heard someone from the USA ever insinuate that.. if they do they haven't studied the war.
Gotta admit though, we'd have been buggered and a lot more people would have lost their lives if the US weren't involved. It was a collective effort, with many nations involved. No shame in that.
Why not celebrate that instead of trying to turn it into a some kind of competition?
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
I did post tongue in cheek. I accept it was a joint effort though the Russians believe they defeated Germany. However my statement stands as per the link below.superdimitri wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:26 amNever ever heard someone from the USA ever insinuate that.. if they do they haven't studied the war.
Why not celebrate that instead of trying to turn it into a some kind of competition?
US credited
In contrast, Americans, Germans and the French believe the U.S. war effort ultimately was the most significant contribution in achieving victory in Europe, according to a survey conducted by British pollster YouGov. Recent polls conducted in Russia, however, show Russians are convinced they’re the ones deserving the main credit for Hitler’s defeat — a reflection, possibly, of the huge death toll the country suffered in the war.
https://www.voanews.com/europe/which-co ... rld-war-ii
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
The russian's won the war, end of story. All the propaganda swallowed up and believed since. Do your homework
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Just finished watching the Netflix series 'Hitler's Circle of Evil'
It's a bit grim obviously but well worth a watch if, like me, you're unclear how someone like Hitler and the abhorrent Nazi party could rise to power from the beer-halls of Munich, to a quest for world domination and genocide.
It also focuses on the in-fighting, back-stabbing and jostling for power that went on among his henchmen as they orchestrated the most horrific events in human history.
It's a bit grim obviously but well worth a watch if, like me, you're unclear how someone like Hitler and the abhorrent Nazi party could rise to power from the beer-halls of Munich, to a quest for world domination and genocide.
It also focuses on the in-fighting, back-stabbing and jostling for power that went on among his henchmen as they orchestrated the most horrific events in human history.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
There was this recent drama/documentary - The Rise of the Nazis:Vintage Claret wrote: ↑Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:26 pmJust finished watching the Netflix series 'Hitler's Circle of Evil'
It's a bit grim obviously but well worth a watch if, like me, you're unclear how someone like Hitler and the abhorrent Nazi party could rise to power from the beer-halls of Munich, to a quest for world domination and genocide.
It also focuses on the in-fighting, back-stabbing and jostling for power that went on among his henchmen as they orchestrated the most horrific events in human history.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00084tc
And the excellent documentary from 1997, 'The Nazis - A Warning from History':
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nazis-Warning- ... B0001MIQ94
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
I get your sentiment, but its rubbish.Dyched wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:07 pmPeople need to stop saying won in regards to wars. You don’t win wars. You win football matches, card games, Snooker matches, not wars. The Nazis were stopped. You don’t win things when millions, upon millions of people lost their lives. It was put to an end, not won.
You'd have known about the difference between winning and losing if Hitler had prevailed. Nobody is claiming war is a good thing, but there is a massive difference between winning and losing one, especially this one.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Victory
1.The overcoming of an enemy or antagonist. 2 : achievement of mastery or success in a struggle or endeavor against odds or difficulties.
VIctory in Europe/Japan day.
Is victory the same as winning? We were victorious over the axis powers doesn’t have the same ring to it as We won the war I suppose.
For me the war wasn’t won but the peace was.
1.The overcoming of an enemy or antagonist. 2 : achievement of mastery or success in a struggle or endeavor against odds or difficulties.
VIctory in Europe/Japan day.
Is victory the same as winning? We were victorious over the axis powers doesn’t have the same ring to it as We won the war I suppose.
For me the war wasn’t won but the peace was.
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Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
Germany had 13.1 million soldiers serve in ww2 and Britain only 3m by the end.
Of course we needed help.
Of course we needed help.
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
As for mistakes in WW2 where would you rank Japan attacking Pearl harbour? Waking the sleeping giant as the commander said in Tora tora tora!
Re: How Britain Won WW2 (8PM Channel 5)
A huge contribution played by other countries such as free poles, free french, Canadians, Indians and many others not just the yanks. There were many pivotal points in the war. The Battle of Britain when we had no yank input and the Germans decision to attack Russia were pivotal.