Penalty?

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dushanbe
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Penalty?

Post by dushanbe » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:39 pm

Just occurred to me, when Tarkowski was thrown to the floor in the box last night, why wasn't it a penalty?

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm

Surprised nobody has asked this.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by JohnMac » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm

The ball was not in play when the offence was committed
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Re: Penalty?

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm

dushanbe wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:39 pm
Just occurred to me, when Tarkowski was thrown to the floor in the box last night, why wasn't it a penalty?
I asked the same question pal before I realised.

It was out of play when it happened.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Shaggy » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:42 pm

Because the ball wasn’t in play at that point at a guess.

How it was only a yellow is beyond me. Should have been another red.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by dushanbe » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:43 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm
Surprised nobody has asked this.
Christ, forgive me for missing it.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by FactualFrank » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:43 pm

Shaggy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:42 pm
Because the ball wasn’t in play at that point at a guess.

How it was only a yellow is beyond me. Should have been another red.
I think it was worse than the one on Westwood.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by dushanbe » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:43 pm

FactualFrank wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm
I asked the same question pal before I realised.

It was out of play when it happened.
It was Frank, that answers that nice one.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:44 pm

dushanbe wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:43 pm
Christ, forgive me for missing it.
You are forgiven, my son.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by dpinsussex » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:45 pm

dushanbe wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:39 pm
Just occurred to me, when Tarkowski was thrown to the floor in the box last night, why wasn't it a penalty?
So far I have read he was thrown to the floor, punched in the face, slapped, jockeying for position.
All of which in law carry a very different sanction from nothing all the way up to a red card.
If as fans we cant decide as to what the offence is what chance has a referee got?

Wait he made his decision and that now should be the end of the matter. #Respect the decision.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Bosscat » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:46 pm

Never a pen as others have pointed out ... but definitely a sending off ... not just the push in Tarkas face but the theatrical comedy dive looking at the Ref to try and disguise what he had done...

As Souness said after the game "RED CARD"

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Re: Penalty?

Post by tiger76 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:58 pm

If the Xhaka offence was a red, then so should the Elneny offence have been, I'm not even sure what the defender was thinking, if you raise your hands in that way you're asking for trouble, fortunately for Arsenal the ref bottled it, how the VAR ref didn't direct him to view the monitor as he did with the Xhaka red card only he knows.

As others have stated it couldn't be a penalty as the ball wasn't in play at the time.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by TheOriginalLongsider » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:00 pm

Defender throws himself to the floor despite him doing the fouling. Sure sign of guilt. I couldn’t believe he checked the screen and didn’t send him off. You can’t push someone on the face with two hands and get away with it. Or perhaps you can ..

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Re: Penalty?

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:05 pm

dpinsussex wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:45 pm
So far I have read he was thrown to the floor, punched in the face, slapped, jockeying for position.
All of which in law carry a very different sanction from nothing all the way up to a red card.
If as fans we cant decide as to what the offence is what chance has a referee got?

Wait he made his decision and that now should be the end of the matter. #Respect the decision.
I'm not sure how you can respect a decision when it's been looked at countless times and he gets it absolutely wrong. Two hands in the face of another player is violent conduct, nothing less, and Elneny just had to walk.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by Conroysleftfoot » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:10 pm

Can you imagine what the reaction would have been if Tarky had done it to Elneny.
The Arsenal bloke would still be rolling on the pitch now and the other players would
Have gone berserk, and a definite red.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by dpinsussex » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:10 pm

ClaretTony wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:05 pm
I'm not sure how you can respect a decision when it's been looked at countless times and he gets it absolutely wrong. Two hands in the face of another player is violent conduct, nothing less, and Elneny just had to walk.
In your opinion Tony

The referee didn't think it was violent.

That is football. Decisions are subjective.

As I mentioned on the other thread I felt Elneny was a very lucky boy

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Re: Penalty?

Post by ClaretTony » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:12 pm

dpinsussex wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:10 pm
In your opinion Tony

The referee didn't think it was violent.

That is football. Decisions are subjective.

As I mentioned on the other thread I felt Elneny was a very lucky boy
Then I honestly think he shouldn't be near a referee's whistle or VAR because that was as clear a red card as you are ever likely to see. I thought it was even worse than the first one and goodness knows why Scott wasn't even giving a yellow card for the foul.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:13 pm

I'm not sure about the ball not in play thing.
A player can be red-carded after the final whistle so why not while a corner is being taken?
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Re: Penalty?

Post by DomBFC1882 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:13 pm

dushanbe wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:43 pm
Christ, forgive me for missing it.
The way this forum works is you have you to read every thread and every comment before starting a new thread. Silly you for not knowing 😉

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Re: Penalty?

Post by TVC15 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:24 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:13 pm
I'm not sure about the ball not in play thing.
A player can be red-carded after the final whistle so why not while a corner is being taken?
It’s the penalty that can’t be awarded as the ball is not in play until the corner is taken.
Like you say you can definitely be red carded.
And 100% this should have been a red card.
He struck Tarks in the face (red card in itself) but then feigned injury / being struck himself to try and get an opponent a card. All this was perfectly clear to the referee via VAR.

Everybody knows he bottled it purely because he had already sent one player off.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by Elizabeth » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:32 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:41 pm
Surprised nobody has asked this.
Any reason for being a smart arse?

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Re: Penalty?

Post by tiger76 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:35 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:24 pm
It’s the penalty that can’t be awarded as the ball is not in play until the corner is taken.
Like you say you can definitely be red carded.
And 100% this should have been a red card.
He struck Tarks in the face (red card in itself) but then feigned injury / being struck himself to try and get an opponent a card. All this was perfectly clear to the referee via VAR.

Everybody knows he bottled it purely because he had already sent one player off.
Spot on TVC.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:38 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:24 pm
It’s the penalty that can’t be awarded as the ball is not in play until the corner is taken.

It's a ridiculous rule, IMO, needs looking at.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:44 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:32 pm
Any reason for being a smart arse?
Lighten up and develop a sense of humour you bore.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Silkyskills1 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:49 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:13 pm
I'm not sure about the ball not in play thing.
A player can be red-carded after the final whistle so why not while a corner is being taken?
Totally agree with this. I recall back in the late 90's we got a penalty at home to Blackpool early season when a corner was waiting to be taken. Different era, I know, but a player was wrestled to the ground, Kurt Nogan scored the penalty and we were 2-0 up. As for the referee seeing it as non-violent it would suggest he'd need to see blood to change his mind.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Silkyskills1 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:49 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:13 pm
I'm not sure about the ball not in play thing.
A player can be red-carded after the final whistle so why not while a corner is being taken?
Totally agree with this. I recall back in the late 90's we got a penalty at home to Blackpool early season when a corner was waiting to be taken. Different era, I know, but a player was wrestled to the ground, Kurt Nogan scored the penalty and we were 2-0 up. As for the referee seeing it as non-violent it would suggest he'd need to see blood to change his mind.
Edit.: Please remove this as it has been posted already.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Elizabeth » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:55 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:44 pm
Lighten up and develop a sense of humour you bore.
Making fun at someone else's expense is not my type of humour. The reaction of the OP is evidence he didn't find it funny either

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:59 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:55 pm
Making fun at someone else's expense is not my type of humour. The reaction of the OP is evidence he didn't find it funny either
Why are you looking for an argument with me, you bore?

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Re: Penalty?

Post by brunlea99 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:03 pm

For clarity:

1. A penalty (or indeed a free kick) cannot be given if the ball is not in play. For example, awaiting a throw in, free kick or goal kick etc.
2. A red card can be given at any time, even if the ball is not in play.

It's always been the case.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:05 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:38 pm
I posted nothing here :o

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Re: Penalty?

Post by TVC15 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:11 pm

Silkyskills1 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:49 pm
Totally agree with this. I recall back in the late 90's we got a penalty at home to Blackpool early season when a corner was waiting to be taken. Different era, I know, but a player was wrestled to the ground, Kurt Nogan scored the penalty and we were 2-0 up. As for the referee seeing it as non-violent it would suggest he'd need to see blood to change his mind.
Not sure - kind of makes sense to me.
A penalty is a punishment for an infringement during play - just like a free kick. If the ball is not actually in play you are not really infringing anything so to speak.
The fact that it occurs in the area is kind of irrelevant - if a goal was scored for example and on the way back to the half way line somebody decided to spark out the scorer you would expect a red card but not for a free kick to be given. It’s no different in the area as there isn’t a ball on the pitch.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:12 pm

I remember a player (amateur league) being booked for jumping as high as he could in front of someone taking a throw in; ungentlemanly conduct. Can't remember if the throw in was retaken or a free kick given.
And plenty of us still recall the horrible challenge on our own Frank Casper when the ball was out of play.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Elizabeth » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:12 pm

Rileybobs wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:59 pm
Why are you looking for an argument with me, you bore?
I must be mistaken, maybe you only like arguments when it is you that is trying to start
them.
Happy for you to confirm you weren't trying to be smart with the OP. If you can't do that I have no longer an interest in what you have to post.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by FCBurnley » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:14 pm

What exactly is the rule re a penalty eg when it can or cannot be given ?
1, if the ball had been placed by the corner flag and the ref had blown but the ball had not been kicked. Is it in play ?
2, if a player commits a foul tackle near the dead ball line inside the penalty but the ball goes over the dead ball line prior to the tackle. Is it a penalty

When is the ball actually in play and what does the rule say
Last edited by FCBurnley on Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by TVC15 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:14 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:12 pm
I remember a player (amateur league) being booked for jumping as high as he could in front of someone taking a throw in; ungentlemanly conduct. Can't remember if the throw in was retaken or a free kick given.
And plenty of us still recall the horrible challenge on our own Frank Casper when the ball was out of play.
There is a specific rule(s) about what an opposition player can and can’t do when facing a throw in.
I heard about the awful challenge on Frank Casper but never saw it. What happened ?

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Rileybobs » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:16 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:12 pm
I must be mistaken, maybe you only like arguments when it is you that is trying to start
them.
Happy for you to confirm you weren't trying to be smart with the OP. If you can't do that I have no longer an interest in what you have to post.
Good. See ya later.
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boatshed bill
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Re: Penalty?

Post by boatshed bill » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:21 pm

TVC15 wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:14 pm
There is a specific rule(s) about what an opposition player can and can’t do when facing a throw in.
I heard about the awful challenge on Frank Casper but never saw it. What happened ?
Hunter went right through him off the pitch, finished his career (although I believe he did play a few games but never the same).
Google it, you may get some footage.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by wilks_bfc » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:30 pm

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:14 pm
What exactly is the rule re a penalty eg when it can or cannot be given ?
1, if the ball had been placed by the corner flag and the ref had blown but the ball had not been kicked. Is it in play ?
2, if a player commits a foul tackle near the dead ball line inside the penalty but the ball goes over the dead ball line prior to the tackle. Is it a penalty

When is the ball actually in play and what does the rule say
These are the IFAB rules re awarding of a penalty.

The ball is only in play once the ball is kicked, not when the whistle is blown - this is why defending players can’t charge down the ball prior to a free kick being taken
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Re: Penalty?

Post by brunlea99 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:35 pm

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:14 pm
What exactly is the rule re a penalty eg when it can or cannot be given ?
1, if the ball had been placed by the corner flag and the ref had blown but the ball had not been kicked. Is it in play ?
2, if a player commits a foul tackle near the dead ball line inside the penalty but the ball goes over the dead ball line prior to the tackle. Is it a penalty

When is the ball actually in play and what does the rule say
A ball is deemed to be in play after it has been played by a free kick, throw in, goal kick etc. The referee blowing his whistle is merely to initiate a free kick, throw in etc.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by dsr » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:38 pm

FCBurnley wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:14 pm
What exactly is the rule re a penalty eg when it can or cannot be given ?
1, if the ball had been placed by the corner flag and the ref had blown but the ball had not been kicked. Is it in play ?
2, if a player commits a foul tackle near the dead ball line inside the penalty but the ball goes over the dead ball line prior to the tackle. Is it a penalty

When is the ball actually in play and what does the rule say
If the ball has gone out of play it's no penalty, however bad the tackle. It's out of play as soon as the whole of the ball has crossed the whole of the line. Though the ref could, if he wanted to be legalese about it, give the penalty if the player started his attempt top foul while the ball was still in play, even if he didn't actually make contact until the ball had gone out.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by FCBurnley » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:05 am

Thanks for the rules updates. So by my reckoning you can pin an attacker to the ground whilst waiting for a corner/ fk to be taken just as long as you release him before the kick is taken but you might get a yellow card as was the case yesterday at the Emirates lol

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Re: Penalty?

Post by thelaughingclaret » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:06 am

The real question is why did the ref not view the monitor? Fifa told the fa they have to do that for possible red card offences. But obviously when a big London club are involved you turn a blind eye. You can’t have THE arsenal playing wit nine men! That is scandalous!
Also note how no media has really covered the second offence too. Watched match of the day two and that annoying ‘chappers’ bloke said they aren't going to talk about that and just left it! The corruption and bias is so large in this league it is disgusting really. Imagine if it had been the other way around.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Siddo » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:48 am

FCBurnley wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:05 am
Thanks for the rules updates. So by my reckoning you can pin an attacker to the ground whilst waiting for a corner/ fk to be taken just as long as you release him before the kick is taken but you might get a yellow card as was the case yesterday at the Emirates lol
That would be a yellow card for ungentlemany conduct.

Reading this and the other thread on the referee on Sunday shows that a large percentage of posters don't know or understand the rules of the game.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by Ashingtonclaret46 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:54 am

Siddo wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:48 am
That would be a yellow card for ungentlemany conduct.

Reading this and the other thread on the referee on Sunday shows that a large percentage of posters don't know or understand the rules of the game.
It doesn't stop them from giving marks for referees when the opportunity is there.
Having said that, with the way that David Elleray and IFAB have messed around with The Laws of the Game and their interpretation in the last four years, much of them relating to VAR, it is no surprise.
It is a topic of conversation at every monthly meeting of our local Referees' Association and every video which is shown prompts several different views and it is certainly not helping with the development of young referees.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by nil_desperandum » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:59 am

thelaughingclaret wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:06 am
Watched match of the day two and that annoying ‘chappers’ bloke said they aren't going to talk about that and just left it! The corruption and bias is so large in this league it is disgusting really. Imagine if it had been the other way around.
Maybe wrong, but my interpretation of the MOTD comment was that he wasn't discussing if further because it was so clearly a red card, and that was what the commentator had said. There are loads of incidents that they don't show again.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Jakubclaret » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:08 am

Siddo wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:48 am
That would be a yellow card for ungentlemany conduct.

Reading this and the other thread on the referee on Sunday shows that a large percentage of posters don't know or understand the rules of the game.
It’s not a case of not knowing nor any lack of understanding it’s more down to the rules changing & being inconsistent, how anybody keeps track of what is what is beyond me, half of the so called rules are just made up as you go along.

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Im_not_Robbie_Blake » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:13 am

Law 12 is ridiculous. It means 'anything goes' until the ball is kicked!

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Re: Penalty?

Post by Silkyskills1 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:16 am

It wasn't so long ago, at the start of a new season, I remember a spate of penalties being awarded for infringements in the penalty area less severe than the one on Sunday night. Mike Dean especially springs to mind as being a referee not afraid to punish the defending side. Were the rules changed again after that?

wilks_bfc
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Re: Penalty?

Post by wilks_bfc » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:17 am

Im_not_Robbie_Blake wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:13 am
Law 12 is ridiculous. It means 'anything goes' until the ball is kicked!
It doesn't mean "anything goes"

You can still receive either a yellow or red card, it just wont be resulting in a penalty.
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Re: Penalty?

Post by yorkyclaret » Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:10 am

Let us just be thankful everything went as it did. Westy first corner looked to be going far too deep. If he hadn't been fouled,maybe Tarks could have got to it, maybe not. If they had defended the second corner with 9 men they would probably have been standing in slightly different places when it was taken, maybe we wouldn't have scored.

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