Brownhill

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Newcastleclaret93
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Re: Brownhill

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:06 pm

Spiral wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:21 pm
Disclaimer: I love Westwood. Now then, this is the kind of thing that cannot be proven, but I'm convinced that those goals Westwood scored from corners granted him a certain leniency, because fans then look at this hypothetical potential for him to score, even though he's hardly scored from open play for us. And this fiction about a player's contribution matters because in the case of Westwood, his passing isn't particularly special, and certainly not significantly superior to Brownhill's to the extent that Westwood should be considered PL calibre and Brownhill not. I've stated on previous Brownhill threads that his passing can be a bit sloppy, but if such a deficiency is to be held against Brownhill to declare him not fit for this league, then so too should Jack Cork's aggression and goalscoring record be held against him. But that's nonsense, of course, because clubs like ours can't afford complete players; we survive by playing to the strengths of those we have, and we utilise Brownhill for his energy. This makes him useful to this side in our league season, and thus, PL quality.
To be fair I think there has been a few statistical breakdowns on this messageboard. Cork and Westwood were considerably better than Brownhill at nearly every segment. Brownhill was only higher on two segments, he averaged 1 interception more a game than Cork and did more running per game.

Interestingly enough I think Westwood and cork goal contributions are actually pretty good for lower end premier league CMs.

Cork averages a goal contribution every 19 games
Westwood averages a goal contribution every 5.9 games

Brownhill has 0 in 33 games.

I don’t think anyone is expecting a complete player just more rounded players. Brownhill seems to cover a lot of ground and is relatively good defensively. However he is none existent going forward. Let’s hope as a few other posters have mentioned he develops his offensive side, until then I remain on the side that he is not quite good enough.

Spiral
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Re: Brownhill

Post by Spiral » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:12 pm

Are those stats on AW and JC their overall PL record, or Burnley stats, Newcastle?

edit — I'll forever maintain that goal contribution stats reflect as much if not more on strikers than they do on those players in positions to assist.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by what_no_pies » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:20 pm

I thought our central midfield had a rare poor game today despite a thoroughly decent team performance. They both ran their socks off but their distribution was chronic and they let Arsenal run rings around us in possession at times.

We should not underestimate their contribution though. We ask so much of them week in week out and wiithout those two engines I don't think we'd have got anything from todays game.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by what_no_pies » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:26 pm

Brownhill and Westy looked poor in several aspects today but we might not have won a point without them covering ground and closing down angles so relentlessly. It's a team game.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Iloveyoubrady » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:35 pm

I do like brownhill and really like the way he picks up second balls in the middle. Makes us much better when we can retain the ball after long balls have been headed out.

Cork is probably a better player right now but is very slow and a bit ponderous. I’m sure brownhill will turn out a very good player for us - he has already played 33 premier league games and has done alright. He has a great interceptions record.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Bigvince » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:39 pm

I don’t get all this crap about
“not being good enough to play at this level”
He is playing at this level! Just get behind the young lad and give him your support!
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Re: Brownhill

Post by boatshed bill » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:40 pm

Perhaps it's a sign of how far we have come, but in our PL season under Coyle/Laws we were (as fans) happy with a defensive midfielder who did little more than protect the back four....
and score penalties.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by RVclaret » Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:55 pm

Bigvince wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:39 pm
I don’t get all this crap about
“not being good enough to play at this level”
He is playing at this level! Just get behind the young lad and give him your support!
Exactly this!
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Re: Brownhill

Post by Zenwisdom » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:06 am

Browhill plays a defensive role at moment
Nothing wrong with that
Westwood does the simple stuff creates very little scores a goal can’t remember weak link IMO
Can’t see another Defour being affordable
so it’s mix and match but we can improve that’s why you can play a game with zero shot on goal

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Re: Brownhill

Post by 1914tyrone » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:22 am

All our central midfield do superb without the ball. But when in procession we don't get enough assists or goals from them. But to be fair we are never going to have Fabregas in there!

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Re: Brownhill

Post by jojomk1 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:27 am

Local cricketer wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:49 pm
Runs around a lot and can’t pass a ball.
You could say that about a few Burnley players

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Re: Brownhill

Post by jrgbfc » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:34 am

TBF if it weren't for corners Westwood wouldn't get many assists either. Would like to see Brownhill tried in a 3 with more license to get forward, but can't see it happening anytime soon.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Belgianclaret » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:41 am

Don’t get the dissing of Brownhill and the previous adoration of Hendrick (who was and still is a bang average player if you ask me)
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Re: Brownhill

Post by TsarBomba » Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:54 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:59 pm
I just don’t understand this theory. So Cork and Westwood can pass the ball in a midfield two but Brownhill can’t?

The argument isn’t about the formation and tactics it’s about whether Brownhill has the quality to be a premier league CM, I don’t think he has shown anything to suggest he does. Good player to have around the squad because he try’s his hardest but unfortunately just not good enough.

Il say it again CM has to be a priority this summer. Westwood and Cork can’t keep performing.
Westwood is your deep lying playmaker, Brownhill is your B2B or ball winning midfielder.

Westwood will chip in with assists because he’s been asked to play a riskier, longer passing game to release the forwards early. He also takes corners.

Brownhill is primarily utilised to break up play and give the ball to either Westwood or our wingers.

Brownhill will NOT gets goals or assists because of how we utilise him, yet people still judge him in on this, and refuse to see what his main objective is, which is to break up play. Largely, we do not instruct our midfielders to break into the box late, or push up an extra 20 yards, because it leaves our CB’s exposed.

Brownhill has been a good signing for us. Sure, he can improve, but this is his first full season in the Premier League. Give him a chance.

I’m all for opinions, and constructive criticism, but if you don’t understand how we play, or how a certain player is utilised, then your opinion is really null and void.
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Re: Brownhill

Post by Swizzlestick » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:42 am

Tsarbomba has said it all. The ‘not good enough’ crew would also do well to look at who was man of the match in the equivalent fixture last year.
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Re: Brownhill

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:45 am

That last part of Tsarbomba's post wipes out a large number of posters on here in one fell swoop :lol:
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Re: Brownhill

Post by SouthLondonexile » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:57 am

Common sense at last prevails on the opinions of Brownhill.
Bristol City fans were outraged and held nightime vigils when he was sold to us. He is a real asset for the club.
Personally I saw him as a natural replacement for JC.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Newcastleclaret93 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:02 am

TsarBomba wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 7:54 am
Westwood is your deep lying playmaker, Brownhill is your B2B or ball winning midfielder.

Westwood will chip in with assists because he’s been asked to play a riskier, longer passing game to release the forwards early. He also takes corners.

Brownhill is primarily utilised to break up play and give the ball to either Westwood or our wingers.

Brownhill will NOT gets goals or assists because of how we utilise him, yet people still judge him in on this, and refuse to see what his main objective is, which is to break up play. Largely, we do not instruct our midfielders to break into the box late, or push up an extra 20 yards, because it leaves our CB’s exposed.

Brownhill has been a good signing for us. Sure, he can improve, but this is his first full season in the Premier League. Give him a chance.

I’m all for opinions, and constructive criticism, but if you don’t understand how we play, or how a certain player is utilised, then your opinion is really null and void.
I’m sorry but this is complete ********. No one is debating that he is great at the defensive parts of the game. It’s his all round ability, his passing is really poor, he is weak on the ball and regularly gives it away.

Playing a certain tactic doesn’t stop his quality on the ball. I merely highlighted his poor offensive work as when you compare him statistically to our other midfielders he is miles behind.

For someone that knows so much about the way we play you have already got one part wrong. Westwood plays as B2B CM he literally said that himself in an interview. So is Westwood that is B2B or Brownhill?

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Re: Brownhill

Post by RVclaret » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:22 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:02 am
I’m sorry but this is complete ********. No one is debating that he is great at the defensive parts of the game. It’s his all round ability, his passing is really poor, he is weak on the ball and regularly gives it away.

Playing a certain tactic doesn’t stop his quality on the ball. I merely highlighted his poor offensive work as when you compare him statistically to our other midfielders he is miles behind.

For someone that knows so much about the way we play you have already got on part wrong. Westwood plays as B2B CM he literally said that himself in an interview. So is Westwood that is B2B or Brownhill?
Okay let’s look at ‘statistically miles behind’...

Comparing Brownhill this season with Cork of last season as JC has missed most of this. I think this comparison is fair as both their roles are similar in midfield (retain possession, break up play).

Brownhill - Cork

Attacking:

Goals: 0-0
Assists: 0-0
Pass Completion: 79.7 - 77.9
Dispossessed: 10-36
Big chances created: 0-1

Defending:

Blocks: 10-12
Interceptions: 55-28
Tackles: 33-35
Passes forwards: 235-271
Passes backwards: 151-145

So basically can you point to me where Brownhill is statistically miles behind?

Oh btw I’m a huge Cork fan but I’m afraid you are talking absolutely nonsense and your constant digging at Brownhill is unwarranted. Stating he ‘isn’t a Prem footballer’ when the stats more than match up JC’s who has been playing at this level for over ten years is drivel. And your argument that he is ‘statistically miles behind’ I’m not sure I follow. Corks stats above are from a season we, as a team, finished 10th too.

Of course Brownhill can improve, however it’s his first season in the Prem in what has been the most bizarre season to ‘settle in’, he’s done just fine.
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Re: Brownhill

Post by jojomk1 » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:24 am

Brownhill is the scapegoat simply because a lot of people on here think Westwood walks on water :roll:

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Hapag Lloyd » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:26 am

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:02 am
I’m sorry but this is complete ********. No one is debating that he is great at the defensive parts of the game. It’s his all round ability, his passing is really poor, he is weak on the ball and regularly gives it away.

Playing a certain tactic doesn’t stop his quality on the ball. I merely highlighted his poor offensive work as when you compare him statistically to our other midfielders he is miles behind.

For someone that knows so much about the way we play you have already got one part wrong. Westwood plays as B2B CM he literally said that himself in an interview. So is Westwood that is B2B or Brownhill?
Your argument is null and void after you labelled the whole team “donkeys” only a week ago.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by warksclaret » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:33 am

The problem we have is "lack of competition". I thought yesterday it was a great battling team performance but Browhill & Westwood gave the ball away so often, and also delivered some poor crosses. Neither got subbed and they know next game both will start

Now in the striker front Wood & Vydra know Jay is there to come on, and probably will at some stage. We can never have enough CM's. We need someone like Gallagher of WBA who is on loan from Chelsea. He gives you the combativeness of Brownhill but like Westwood is always showing fir the ball and foraging, plus driving forward

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Re: Brownhill

Post by taio » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:36 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:22 am
Okay let’s look at ‘statistically miles behind’...

Comparing Brownhill this season with Cork of last season as JC has missed most of this. I think this comparison is fair as both their roles are similar in midfield (retain possession, break up play).

Brownhill - Cork

Attacking:

Goals: 0-0
Assists: 0-0
Pass Completion: 79.7 - 77.9
Dispossessed: 10-36
Big chances created: 0-1

Defending:

Blocks: 10-12
Interceptions: 55-28
Tackles: 33-35
Passes forwards: 235-271
Passes backwards: 151-145

So basically can you point to me where Brownhill is statistically miles behind?

Oh btw I’m a huge Cork fan but I’m afraid you are talking absolutely nonsense and your constant digging at Brownhill is unwarranted. Stating he ‘isn’t a Prem footballer’ when the stats more than match up JC’s who has been playing at this level for over ten years is drivel. And your argument that he is ‘statistically miles behind’ I’m not sure I follow. Corks stats above are from a season we, as a team, finished 10th too.

Of course Brownhill can improve, however it’s his first season in the Prem in what has been the most bizarre season to ‘settle in’, he’s done just fine.
Let's not let facts get in the way of someone's constant negativity about so many things relating to the club :D
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Re: Brownhill

Post by Top Claret » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:14 am

We lack quality and drive in midfield.

We are crying out for a tall strong box to box player who as athletisim, power and pace. Cork is slowing down, Brownhill and Benson aren't good enough and Westwood can't do it on his own.

We need to find our own Tomas Soucek or Marouane Fellaini

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Re: Brownhill

Post by COBBLE » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:28 am

Its a pity given our tendency to give the ball away that we don't have one of the best at making interceptions. I wonder who is top of the Sky interceptions ratings?

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Re: Brownhill

Post by gandhisflipflop » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:44 am

I think he is doing ok. Not spectacular but certainly by no means worthy of the criticism aimed on this thread. He still has room for improvement but that will come.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:48 am

The point that still somehow gets ignored in every single discussion about our centre midfield is that the central midfielders are outnumbered in just about Every. Single. Game. in this league; not by accident or because of tactical incompetence, but just because it's how we set up to play with two 'proper' strikers. Folk look at other midfielders at other clubs playing in a three and expect whichever individuals playing in our midfield-two to do the same job as someone from another team with an extra man over us covering his own much smaller pocket of the pitch. Then we've got the fact that a lot of teams play one centre half higher than we'd ever dream of doing which crowds out the centre of the pitch even more. I'm no happy clapper, and measured criticism is perfectly acceptable, but maybe some folks have a tactical blindspot in their criticisms of our centre midfielders, because this theme of our midfielders apparently being not-PL quality seems to be consistent, despite our sustained success under this system.
This

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Re: Brownhill

Post by warksclaret » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:06 pm

I think subliminally De Four is still on the back of our minds. In a team much weaker than todays he could make things happen, and a delight to watch. An example was when we beat Chelsea 3-2 the first game of the season 3 years ago. He also brought out the best of fellow midfielders around him

One "DeFour" type player and 9 war horses would make us a great team. We have time to find this type of player in the next 5 months, but it has to be on our agenda

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Fez » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:34 pm

Under the defensive style and discipline of Sean dyche, xhaka would be class.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by bodge » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:42 pm

Spiral and Tsar Bomba make the best points on this thread.

All I'll say is that he will need to convert one of his free kicks soon, this is his opportunity to get on the score sheet, we saw at Millwall that he can score from distance.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Sun Mar 07, 2021 12:45 pm

Too many of our players are suffering from not getting a run of games.
Brownhill has been messed around, as Hendrick was. He was fine when Jack was injured but since then has been on the bench or the wideman. He’ll be a good player for us in future.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by gawthorpe_view » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:13 pm

Add to interception statistics that he was the fastest player on the pitch yesterday, clocked at 20.4 mph.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Wile E Coyote » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:39 pm

on a good day all of our players can excel. on many bad days virtually all of them can appear useless. There have undoubtably been some terrible performances. I realise this post relates to Brownhill, but give the lad a break please.
He is part of a squad that is at the **** end of the division. Hardly condusive to allowing his true potential to flourish. people are to quick to condemn our young footballers at times.
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Re: Brownhill

Post by huw.Y.WattfromWare » Mon Mar 08, 2021 12:03 am

According to TeamTalk: Wolves, Saints, CP, West Ham & AV have been scouting Josh in recent months.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Papabendi » Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:43 am

Certainly getting some attention.

He does a lot of the unseen work. One long busting track back and tackle on Sako on Saturday was a match saver.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by jojomk1 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:21 am


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Re: Brownhill

Post by ksrclaret » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:29 am

Interesting, as he’s certainly divided opinion from what I’ve read on here, but I would say that players with his attributes can be very sought after. By that I mean him topping the interception charts. Players like Kante and Gueye have made a career out of intercepting, recycling short passes, and bombing up and down with lots of energy.

You can certainly see why a side which likes to play football would want someone just to sit in and intercept for fun.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by JohnMac » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:33 am

What is the criteria for someone to be 'good enough for this League'?

As a schoolboy I was told you need to trap a ball and control it instantly so by that alone we clearly don't have anyone even good enough to play football.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by cricketfieldclarets » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:07 pm

bf2k wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:23 pm
People can have an opinion on a player you know?

As for the new Hendrick...maybe that's because he's constantly being played out of position like Hendrick did. However, I agree he a good squad player to have but not good enough really for this level.
Of course they can. Everyone’s entitled to an opinion.

I just feel it’s poor form digging out a young player in his first full season at this level (in strange circumstances too) who has playing a key role for us.

To be a midfielder in the premier league is probably the toughest of all jobs. Absolutely no hiding place.

For us especially they are asked to do a very certain job. Primarily break up play.

With that said he is the top placed midfielder and second only in the overall table in terms of interceptions. Which is pretty much his first job. And something we’ve missed since marney and barton.

He’s ahead of pretty some pretty impressive names there who are well known for exactly that type of work. Kante being the most obvious.

Yes we’d like more goals from him. But I’d like more goals from our strikers first.
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Stevie Morgan
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Re: Brownhill

Post by Stevie Morgan » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:54 am

The difficulty with this stat is that it is skewed in the sense we have much lower levels of possession compared with others on the list, hence more opportunities for interceptions.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by ClaretMat » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:57 am

True - but he is still the only Burnley player on the list.
West Ham also allow the opposition to keep the ball in certain areas and he's above both Soucek and Rice who I would imagine have also played more minutes.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:12 am

So if Rice is apparently valued at over £100 million because he plays for the media darlings at West Ham, that must mean Brownhill is barely worth what we paid for him because he plays for us and no one likes us :lol:

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Re: Brownhill

Post by warksclaret » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:32 am

We must remember he is not the "finished article", however he is getting plenty of game time and will develop with us. The main issue he looks like he is a good honest pro, and not likely to want the earth when his contract comes up for discussion

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Re: Brownhill

Post by LeadBelly » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:24 am

ClaretMat wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:57 am
True - but he is still the only Burnley player on the list.
West Ham also allow the opposition to keep the ball in certain areas and he's above both Soucek and Rice who I would imagine have also played more minutes.
According to the Fantasy Football info, 2430 minutes for the 2 Hammers, 1960 minutes for Brownhill. So they've clocked up more than 20% more minutes than Brownhill.
I've seen stories in the last few days that several clubs (WHU, Villa, Wolves to name a few) are "eyeing" Brownhill. They probably all emanate from https://www.teamtalk.com/news/exclusive ... midfielder. Ive no idea how accurate these stories are but they are out there and apparently circulating.

JTClaret
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Re: Brownhill

Post by JTClaret » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:19 pm

He's almost good.

He might get better and become really good. I'm not actually sure what is missing from his game, could just be confidence and composure.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by Swizzlestick » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:23 pm

JTClaret wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:19 pm
He's almost good.

He might get better and become really good. I'm not actually sure what is missing from his game, could just be confidence and composure.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. He's shown more than enough to me that he can cut it at this level with us. He's dynamic, obviously intercepts well, brings energy to the team. If he can work on the more technical side to the game, improve his composure, which I feel he can do with the right training etc, we have an excellent asset.

ClaretTony
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Re: Brownhill

Post by ClaretTony » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:58 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 11:40 pm
Perhaps it's a sign of how far we have come, but in our PL season under Coyle/Laws we were (as fans) happy with a defensive midfielder who did little more than protect the back four....
and score penalties.
I think that's spot on. With no disrespect to Grezza he was not a Premier League footballer and to add to that he was getting on a bit when he got the chance. He'd be no use to us now, we don't get penalties.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by WiscoClaret » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:33 pm

Great article (IMO) by Sky that was just done on Brownhill!: https://www.skysports.com/football/news ... sean-dyche

He went vegan after coming to Burnley...I guess gravel is Vegan 😂

*Edit* Also: He’s happy at Burnley and doesn’t want to go anywhere even with all of those teams prowling.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by superdimitri » Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:24 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:12 am
So if Rice is apparently valued at over £100 million because he plays for the media darlings at West Ham, that must mean Brownhill is barely worth what we paid for him because he plays for us and no one likes us :lol:
I know no one likes us, but Rice is just 22 and already has plenty of experience. The reason he's valued so high is because of his age. Rice is younger and started playing the premier league well before Brownhill did.

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Re: Brownhill

Post by jedi_master » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:28 pm

Absolutely superb this evening.

Well done Josh Brownhill.
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