Does Vydra

[Cubanclaret]

Was a nice touch into see Dyche acknowledge Vydra when he was substituted. It’s something I don’t think I’ve ever seen him do, part of his style to always ignore the player leaving the pitch. Speaks volumes for the impression he has made in the manager’s eyes over this past run of games. Whether it’s enough to justify keeping him beyond the end of the season is another matter.

[fatboy47]

I think the big change in recent weeks has been the effectiveness of the pressing, it directly lead to the goals against Arsenal, Leicester and again at Everton. Winning the ball that high up the pitch allows us to have more players in the box when we come to shoot and increases our options. Vydra definitely helps with this pressing with his energy. Credit to Brownhill and Westwood too who made 4 and 5 interceptions yesterday which really helped create opportunities.

I don't think we can really say it's just a case of us deciding to play it on the ground, we made fewer passes yesterday than against West Brom or Spurs, and 1 in 4 of them was a long ball which was a considerably higher proportion than in those games. Clearly we're using the ball with much more purpose and I feel that it's the quick transitions and commitment to getting men in the box that has really picked up in the last few games.

5 of 6 meaningless passes around the back 4, followed by an aimless hoof up to Wood/Barnes may look OK stats wise...but its utterly mind-numbing to watch.

[DomBFC1882]

5 of 6 meaningless passes around the back 4, followed by an aimless hoof up to Wood/Barnes may look OK stats wise...but its utterly mind-numbing to watch.

This

[jrgbfc]

The fact is there's no way we could play football like that with Barnes on the pitch. He's just too static and immobile. Vydra drags defenders around and creates more space for our other attacking players.

[jojomk1]

Since Vydra has been given this extended run our style has thankfully changed.
His runs down the chanels and comes back deep for the ball bring more other players into the mix - he's actually quite good in the air as well
There can be no doubt that Wood has also benefited because it also gives him more license to move into different areas rather than be static through the middle waiting for the aimless punts that we are used to when he and Barnes are paired together
We have now extended the service of all senior players apart from Brady and Dunne into next season
The club took up the chance to exercise the additional year on Vydra's existing contract but that still means he is only contracted to the end of next season when another nine players will potentially be ooc
If the club, and manager, really value this guy then a new longer deal should be sorted before the end of this season

[Elizabeth]

He’s a player you are willing to score

[RalphCoatesComb]

With a little more composure Vyds could have had a pan full of goals this season. He should have had a brace yesterday. Just needs to calm down.

[bfcjg]

Since Vydra has been given this extended run our style has thankfully changed.
His runs down the chanels and comes back deep for the ball bring more other players into the mix - he's actually quite good in the air as well
There can be no doubt that Wood has also benefited because it also gives him more license to move into different areas rather than be static through the middle waiting for the aimless punts that we are used to when he and Barnes are paired together
We have now extended the service of all senior players apart from Brady and Dunne into next season
The club took up the chance to exercise the additional year on Vydra's existing contract but that still means he is only contracted to the end of next season when another nine players will potentially be ooc
If the club, and manager, really value this guy then a new longer deal should be sorted before the end of this season

Question is though does he want to stay ? In the back of his mind he must be thinking how he has been treated and is how we are playing now really how the manager wants to play.

[Stayingup]

The fact is there's no way we could play football like that with Barnes on the pitch. He's just too static and immobile. Vydra drags defenders around and creates more space for our other attacking players.

True but that depends on the opposition and who they are and how they set up. Barnes has proved that he can be very useful.

[milkcrate_mosh]

Feel Barnes is getting a bit of an unfair bashing here, he's obviously got his limitations and is less mobile than Vydra but he's scored more goals and played a part in considerably more of our wins (5vs2 but obviously considerably more minutes). Was shocked when I realised that yesterday was the first time we'd won a prem match Vydra started this season. I agree that when it's not working with Barnes it's ugly but we've been garbage on occasions he hasn't played as well...

[Rileybobs]

Feel Barnes is getting a bit of an unfair bashing here, he's obviously got his limitations and is less mobile than Vydra but he's scored more goals and played a part in considerably more of our wins (5vs2). Was shocked when I realised that yesterday was the first time we'd won a prem match Vydra started this season. I agree that when it's not working with Barnes it's ugly but we've been garbage on occasions he hasn't played as well...

There’s a really strange trend on here where instead of praising the players who are playing well, some choose to use it as an excuse to write off the injured/out of form player.

We have 4 good centre forward options. Unfortunately they have all spent most of the season out of form. Vydra has had a good run of form and Wood looks back to his best after a spell where he appeared to be not fully fit. As things stand they are our first choice pairing and if Barnes was fit for our next game he certainly wouldn’t displace Vydra. But that’s not to say that at some point both he won’t get back into the side as team selections are fluid and dependent on a number of factors - most obviously form and fitness.

[Goodclaret]

Another very, very good game from Vydra yesterday. Dyche would be mad to change he and Wood whilst they are linking up so well. But, as Riley says, when form or fitness drops then we have Jay and Barnes to step up. All our strikers can do a decent job and I feel thankful for that.

As for style of play, I wouldn't want to say "it's because Vydra is playing". It's more complicated than that. Yesterday was such a good attacking performance due to McNeil being at his very best. JBG's way of playing is far more positive; he receives the ball and his first thought is "how can I move forward?". Brownhill in the favoured CM role gives us great energy which was imperative to our quick winning of the ball back and being on the front foot so many times which Everton couldn't cope with. Then these 3 looking forward and Wood and Vydra's movement being so good we suddenly have a really effective unit going forward.

It also proves, which many of us have seen and accepted, that when Dyche has the right players available, we play some very good football.

[Spiral]

I don't think the performance was just down to the partnership, though Vydra was immense yesterday. I think Everton bungled it a bit, tactically. They played with a hole in the middle of the park which allowed Westwood and Brownhill to get just all over the place, which contributed to that beautiful first half performance which was as good as anything you'll see outside the top three or four teams this weekend. Diamonds are great to get around a 442 if the wingers you're up against are your classical attacking flair players, but Dyche's wingers have the engine and aggression of centre midfielders, so Everton couldn't handle it. They were outworked on the flanks, and it allowed the CM's to push Everton deep.

[jojomk1]

Another very, very good game from Vydra yesterday. Dyche would be mad to change he and Wood whilst they are linking up so well. But, as Riley says, when form or fitness drops then we have Jay and Barnes to step up. All our strikers can do a decent job and I feel thankful for that.

As for style of play, I wouldn't want to say "it's because Vydra is playing". It's more complicated than that. Yesterday was such a good attacking performance due to McNeil being at his very best. JBG's way of playing is far more positive; he receives the ball and his first thought is "how can I move forward?". Brownhill in the favoured CM role gives us great energy which was imperative to our quick winning of the ball back and being on the front foot so many times which Everton couldn't cope with. Then these 3 looking forward and Wood and Vydra's movement being so good we suddenly have a really effective unit going forward.

It also proves, which many of us have seen and accepted, that when Dyche has the right players available, we play some very good football.

McNeill played exceptionally well and good performances from Brownhill and JBG, due in a lot to the fact that we were playing a much more expansive game where they had more time on the ball, which we wouldn't see with Wood and Barnes up front together - they would all be bypassed by punts over their heads

It's not personal against Barnes but just the way Dyche plays the game when he and Wood start together

[milkcrate_mosh]

More than a third of our passes were over head height yesterday, a higher percentage than in 24 games this season. Westwood made fewer passes yesterday than almost any match this season, Brownhill was also below his average number of passes. Effective high/long balls (quite a lot of them to Vydra!) were very much a feature of how we played yesterday and there's nothing wrong with that when it's working! We benefitted from playing an aggressive and direct game with lots of pressing rather than really controlling possession or playing it short.

In fact if you look at the 10 games this season where we've completed the fewest passes we've won 6 of them! This is compared to only 1 of our top 10 games. We're often better when we're moving through teams quickly, our most abject performances are often defined by more passes with very little movement (which is an area Vydra often improves us in).

[bobinho]

Doubt it very much. Once in the side, and if continuing to play well, Dyche is all about continuity.

I'd love to believe this like i used to... but it's been clear for a long time that he DOES have his favourites, and Barnes is one of them. Thats not me having a pop, merely an observation.

I'm a Barnes fan, always have been, but times change and things move on. They have moved on for me, Barnes should be impact subbing, and i believe he still has his uses, but i don't believe he is first choice anymore. That's not me 'bashing' him, he's been great for us but it's clear as the nose on your face the best offensive pairing we have are currently starting. I hope he leaves it be...

Thing is, despite the improvements in style, effectiveness and results, there will still be some (absent from the thread so far) that don't want Vydra anywhere near starting.

[Rileybobs]

I'd love to believe this like i used to... but it's been clear for a long time that he DOES have his favourites, and Barnes is one of them. Thats not me having a pop, merely an observation.

I'm a Barnes fan, always have been, but times change and things move on. They have moved on for me, Barnes should be impact subbing, it's clear as the nose on your face the best offensive pairing we have are currently starting. I hope he leaves it be...

Thing is, despite the improvements in style, effectiveness and results, there will still be some (absent from the thread so far) that don't want Vydra anywhere near starting.

All managers have their favourites, I don’t understand this criticism. A managers favourite players are invariably their best ones.

[bobinho]

All managers have their favourites, I don’t understand this criticism. A managers favourite players are invariably their best ones.

Fair do's, and historically he has been... but he just isn't the best first option anymore. We are spectacularly easy to play against and easy to fathom when we go with Wood and Barnes now...

Wasn't Barnes SD's first signing? Been a great signing, and undoubtedly does exactly as instructed, but the team needed to evolve, we have done recently and we are seeing the fruits of that. Whether Vydra remains part of this upturn in style, performance, creativity and results remains to be seen, but from what we have seen we surely know he's the type of player we need to get the best from Wood, and also to bring in the midfielders into play offensively.

[milkcrate_mosh]

Thing is, despite the improvements in style, effectiveness and results, there will still be some (absent from the thread so far) that don't want Vydra anywhere near starting.

Style definitely arguable but results are worse with Vydra, 1.2 points per game Barnes has played for Vydra it's 0.8. Obviously our various injury crises and relative difficulty of fixtures will apply to some extent.

[Stevie Morgan]

Style definitely arguable but results are worse with Vydra, 1.2 points per game Barnes has played for Vydra it's 0.8. Obviously our various injury crises and relative difficulty of fixtures will apply to some extent.

Is that starts or appearances? Just this season?

[Rileybobs]

Fair do's, and historically he has been... but he just isn't the best first option anymore. We are spectacularly easy to play against and easy to fathom when we go with Wood and Barnes now...

Wasn't Barnes SD's first signing? Been a great signing, and undoubtedly does exactly as instructed, but the team needed to evolve, we have done recently and we are seeing the fruits of that. Whether Vydra remains part of this upturn in style, performance, creativity and results remains to be seen, but from what we have seen we surely know he's the type of player we need to get the best from Wood, and also to bring in the midfielders into play offensively.

I don’t disagree with that. This season we have undoubtedly played our best football with the pairing of Wood and Vydra. That hasn’t been the case in the past though. And there may well come a time when Barnes again becomes one of our preferred strikers. It’s silly to rule him out, because players, particularly strikers, constantly dip into and out of form.

There’s no way that Dyche will drop Vydra for Barnes if we continue to put in performances like the last few games, because he picks his teams based on the players who are most likely to get results as opposed to who his notional favourites are.

I also think that the attitude and mentality has played much more of a pivotal role in our recent performances than the personnel.

[taio]

I'd love to believe this like i used to... but it's been clear for a long time that he DOES have his favourites, and Barnes is one of them. Thats not me having a pop, merely an observation.

I'm a Barnes fan, always have been, but times change and things move on. They have moved on for me, Barnes should be impact subbing, and i believe he still has his uses, but i don't believe he is first choice anymore. That's not me 'bashing' him, he's been great for us but it's clear as the nose on your face the best offensive pairing we have are currently starting. I hope he leaves it be...

Thing is, despite the improvements in style, effectiveness and results, there will still be some (absent from the thread so far) that don't want Vydra anywhere near starting.

Not sure I'd describe it as Dyche having his favourites. He simply selects the team he believes has the best chance of getting a result and tends to be patient and hold his nerve more than some supporters like. The approach has obviously worked very well in the main. May be I'm wrong and that will be proven if Vydra continues to play very well but then gets dropped for Barnes very soon after his return to fitness.

[milkcrate_mosh]

Is that starts or appearances? Just this season?

Barnes is 1.2 ppg for appearances and for 1.1 for starts this season

Vydra is a hair over 0.8 ppg for appearances and just under 0.8 for starts this season

edit: missed a sub appearance out for Vydra, he's actually just under 0.8 for appearances as well

[bobinho]

Style definitely arguable but results are worse with Vydra, 1.2 points per game Barnes has played for Vydra it's 0.8. Obviously our various injury crises and relative difficulty of fixtures will apply to some extent.

Stats?

Stats can be a good thing I suppose, when you are breaking the game down into it's component parts and studying the 'fine margins'. In this case maybe your stats have the edge when discussing results, but if recent performances are to be studied, i'm sure you will be able to use the same stats real soon to prove the thing to do is make the change as permanent as it can be. Barnes has been almost an ever present, with Vydra up to recently being confined to bit parts.

Someone put up some stats recently comparing Wood to a bunch of other strikers. He came out top against the likes of Danny Ings and Calvert-Lewin but i'm sure most on here would swap the two i mentioned for Wood in a heartbeat. Not sure what my point is with this tho... other than to show that stats don't always tell the full truth.

Style is not arguable at all. What have your eyes been telling you? You can see we don't just look better, we are far more effective not just in the final third, but in other areas too, because of the increased options the forwards are giving the other players whose job it is to supply them. The midfielders look like they are enjoying the game too, now they are getting involved in more than just `recycling`.

[milkcrate_mosh]

Style isn't subjective but results are...?

Barnes has made 1 fewer prem appearances than Vydra this season so they cover basically the same amount of games. Barnes has made considerably more minutes but if you discount Vydra's cameo appearances you lose 2 of the 3 wins he's appeared in. Barnes has made more starts than Vydra sure but we've won once in Vydras 9 starts compared to 4 in 15 with Barnes. Don't think that can be dismissed as being obsessed with stats its just our actual results.

[Rileybobs]

Stats?

Stats can be a good thing I suppose, when you are breaking the game down into it's component parts and studying the 'fine margins'. In this case maybe your stats have the edge when discussing results, but if recent performances are to be studied, i'm sure you will be able to use the same stats real soon to prove the thing to do is make the change as permanent as it can be. Barnes has been almost an ever present, with Vydra up to recently being confined to bit parts.

The problem with this is that it suggests that you would like Dyche to make Vydra one of his favourites, despite not liking Dyche having favourites.

[Mattster]

I looked at the stats for 3 key phases of play and what role our players play. It's no surprise that yesterday we looked good, barring Pieters for Taylor, we had a our best XI out there.

Vydra is a part of that but not the sole reason. He's one of the players that's pretty unique as you can see. JBG, McNeil and Westwood are the others (and Wood to a lesser extent). If they're all playing then we're harder to stop if one or more are missing the we lose something unique and it's easier for the opposition to limit us as there's fewer threats to eliminate.

Vydra is our most creative, biggest goal threat and the most effective presser of the 4 forwards . If he can sort his finishing out he'd be the complete package.

Our lack of depth has been our main reason for struggling this season. Certain players just don't have a backup option who isn't a significant drop off in output. We're so lucky Westwood has stayed fit because there isn't another player in the squad that offers anything close to what he does in terms of progressive passing.

[bobinho]

No pal. You are suggesting that. I'm merely suggesting we look better, more effective, a bigger threat with these two up top as opposed to when its Wood and Barnes.

And besides, i sort of agree with your definition of `favourites` when it really is your best player. I'm suggesting that Barnes is no longer that effective player up top that he used to be. Not saying he's finished, not by a long chalk, but he really shouldn't be first choice - certainly not at the moment.

Very much enjoying the discussion without the typical thread degeneration. Like being in the pub after a good win eh?

[Stayingup]

Its good to have two strikers as we have with Vydra and Barnes who offer very different styles to the team. Where does this leave Jayrod?

[Rileybobs]

No pal. You are suggesting that. I'm merely suggesting we look better, more effective, a bigger threat with these two up top as opposed to when its Wood and Barnes.

And besides, i sort of agree with your definition of `favourites` when it really is your best player. I'm suggesting that Barnes is no longer that effective player up top that he used to be. Not saying he's finished, not by a long chalk, but he really shouldn't be first choice - certainly not at the moment.

Very much enjoying the discussion without the typical thread degeneration. Like being in the pub after a good win eh?

I’m not looking for thread degeneration, maybe what I’m posting isn’t coming across correctly in written form. I’m not picking an argument, just having a civil discussion.

My point is that you have criticised Dyche for having favourites then suggested that we should make Vydra’s starting place as permanent as possible. But surely there’s a contradiction there as Vydra should only be starting games when his form is deserving of it - which at the moment it certainly is, and that’s why he’s currently starting games.

At some point Vydra’s form may well dip and Barnes may come into the side and grasp his opportunity, as Vydra has done.

As I posted earlier in the thread, team selection is fluid. Having said that I do understand why that’s hard for some Burnley fans to grasp considering the lack of options we’ve had over the past few years.

[Mattster]

Its good to have two strikers as we have with Vydra and Barnes who offer very different styles to the team. Where does this leave Jayrod?

Stats wise this season Jay is the backup option to Vydra. He offers similar pressing quantity* and creative contribution but has been less of a goal threat, he has been playing a deeper role this season, to be fair, which has contributed to that lesser threat.

*less successfully as part of team but more successful as an individual.

[bobinho]

I’m not looking for thread degeneration, maybe what I’m posting isn’t coming across correctly in written form. I’m not picking an argument, just having a civil discussion.

My point is that you have criticised Dyche for having favourites then suggested that we should make Vydra’s starting place as permanent as possible. But surely there’s a contradiction there as Vydra should only be starting games when his form is deserving of it - which at the moment it certainly is, and that’s why he’s currently starting games.

At some point Vydra’s form may well dip and Barnes may come into the side and grasp his opportunity, as Vydra has done.

As I posted earlier in the thread, team selection is fluid. Having said that I do understand why that’s hard for some Burnley fans to grasp considering the lack of options we’ve had over the past few years.

Its clear you aren't looking for an argument, that's why i said i'm enjoying the civil discussion - didn't mean typical for you, just the board in general. Your arguments are well presented, no problem.

Didn't mean to criticise Dyche for having favourites so i said it was just an observation, if like you suggested it corresponds with the player being currently the best player. That's why Barnes still being a favourite doesn't make sense to me. I want him to persevere now with this front pairing, but i worry that at the very first opportunity he will revert to `type`, and then Barnes will be back in for the forseeable.

With the front players, he has tended not to drop them during a barren spell - recently, before his knock, Wood looked awful for weeks, but still he played him. I'm just hoping Vyds gets the same courtesy, purely because i think how we are playing right now is the best we have played in a long time. As pointed out earlier, it may not JUST be down to Vyds offering different options, but they are looking really good together.

[Rileybobs]

Its clear you aren't looking for an argument, that's why i said i'm enjoying the civil discussion - didn't mean typical for you, just the board in general. Your arguments are well presented, no problem.

Didn't mean to criticise Dyche for having favourites so i said it was just an observation, if like you suggested it corresponds with the player being currently the best player. That's why Barnes still being a favourite doesn't make sense to me. I want him to persevere now with this front pairing, but i worry that at the very first opportunity he will revert to `type`, and then Barnes will be back in for the forseeable.

With the front players, he has tended not to drop them during a barren spell - recently, before his knock, Wood looked awful for weeks, but still he played him. I'm just hoping Vyds gets the same courtesy, purely because i think how we are playing right now is the best we have played in a long time. As pointed out earlier, it may not JUST be down to Vyds offering different options, but they are looking really good together.

Cool, sorry for misunderstanding.

I agree, but I think that Dyche will offer Vydra that courtesy, because his performances deserve it. In his admittedly limited opportunities in the past he really hasn’t done enough for me so I can understand why Dyche reverted to type.

FWIW I think we can play equally well with a combination of our forward options. For me the main thing is the positive attitude which we’ve certainly shown since the half time interval against Villa.

[jrgbfc]

Its good to have two strikers as we have with Vydra and Barnes who offer very different styles to the team. Where does this leave Jayrod?

Jay hasn't looked fully fit to me recently. He's still a class act, but both him and Barnes are the wrong side of 30 now, and had their share of injuries.

[bobinho]

I think attitude is something we have in spades. And we ALWAYS put in a good performance with bags of effort just after we've had a spanking. It's good to see that type of reaction to a manager that has been around a long time. No doubt whatsoever who has the dressing room.

Full marks in the transfers too really, no bad eggs in there, at least not now, he seems to have this nailed.

I just hope he can see that we have a different AND effective way of playing, and that we are not quite as limited as some on here would have us believe.

[SouthLondonexile]

Yes, he's making Wood look a better player. Dyche doesn't need another striker in the summer. He needs to start Vydra with Wood every game, unless either is injured and Jay and Barnes are back up. Simple.

Vydra has real pace and guile.
I think the partnership of Vydra and a fit Wood are better than the sum of their individual contributions.
I do not want to see him leave I would prefer him to start games from now on.