New ground or redevelopment ?

[dibraidio]

In 97 Bolton opened their new 28,000 stadium. In 2000 Blackburn were projecting to increase their capacity to 40,000. It was very much an era of "build it and they will come" thinking. By 2009 and they were both dropping prices to try and fill empty seats.

In 2016 Liverpool's Ian Ayre said "I don't think there's a club in the country who can afford to spend money on a new stand without the assistance of corporate hospitality. It will probably pay around two thirds or more of the payback of the facility". He said that was when they were planning to extend the Anfield Road stand adding 3500 hospitality seats doubling their corporate capacity.

I wouldn't expect to see a big increase in capacity at the Turf but I'll bet there will be a lot more hospitality seats in any new plans.

[Dark Cloud]

The club were talking about developing the Cricket Field Stand 21 years ago. So two decades ago they felt it needed upgrading, and 7 seasons in the Premier League, 11 years of Sky money and we’ve painted the seats.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/n ... cket-club/

I remember this and actually wrote something on here about it not long ago on another (similar) thread. It wasn't far off being a goer if I remember correctly and the CC would have gone for it and the Turf would currently have been in a much better state in theory. I THINK it stumbled and fell because the residents overlooking Fulledge objected to the cricket ground moving there which at the time seemed very churlish since Fulledge was simply a big cinder covered car park which hosted Burnley fair and the bonfire each year. Anyway, they prevailed and the idea sank.

[Rowls]

A lot of new buildings generally has a life cycle cost plan developed during the planning/feasibility cycle which looks at the component parts of said building. Each component is given a capital cost, a maintenance cost, and a lifespan in terms of duration before replacement.

Oh I can understand entirely why the construction industry might want to put a "lifespan" on buildings but I disagree with the concept almost entirely.

[BurnleyFC]

I remember this and actually wrote something on here about it not long ago on another (similar) thread. It wasn't far off being a goer if I remember correctly and the CC would have gone for it and the Turf would currently have been in a much better state in theory. I THINK it stumbled and fell because the residents overlooking Fulledge objected to the cricket ground moving there which at the time seemed very churlish since Fulledge was simply a big cinder covered car park which hosted Burnley fair and the bonfire each year. Anyway, they prevailed and the idea sank.

That’s correct. My parents were Fulledge residents but didn’t oppose the plans.

Bonkers decision from the residents that did oppose it as I think the area would’ve looked much better with the cricket club situated there.

[ChrisG]

Oh I can understand entirely why the construction industry might want to put a "lifespan" on buildings but I disagree with the concept almost entirely.

You can disagree with the concept all you like, however if the building isn't updated or replaced when the parts fail, then it's likely to fail and kill folk.

Materials such as concrete, steel, timber all degrade over time. This is why there is a lifespan placed on them. Building Regulations are in place to protect life, not developer's profit margins.

Heysel is a good example of how an unsafe structure, ie. one that has not been maintain correctly, can fail to catastrophic effect.

But what do I know, I'm merely a RICS chartered surveyor.

[diamondpocket]

We can look at over disasters in other areas overs the years, not only footy stadiums.
Look at the motorway bridge in Genoa that collapsed a few years ago!

[TheFamilyCat]

You can disagree with the concept all you like, however if the building isn't updated or replaced when the parts fail, then it's likely to fail and kill folk.

Materials such as concrete, steel, timber all degrade over time. This is why there is a lifespan placed on them. Building Regulations are in place to protect life, not developer's profit margins.

Heysel is a good example of how an unsafe structure, ie. one that has not been maintain correctly, can fail to catastrophic effect.

But what do I know, I'm merely a RICS chartered surveyor.

Your qualifications are worthless on this board.

[TsarBomba]

I’d hate to see us relocate.

To keep it simple and as cheap as we can, we could do with an extra 15/20 rows on the BL as we’re desperate for more premium seating, and a new roof to go with it.

Regarding the CFS, another large single terrace structure with safe standing, perhaps one similar to the away end at the Hawthorns.

I hate to think how much we’ve frittered away on renovating the CFS over the past decade, when really, all the money we’ve spent could’ve probably paid for a new stand by now.

This is what happens when you don’t have a long term plan in place.

[Rowls]

You can disagree with the concept all you like, however if the building isn't updated or replaced when the parts fail, then it's likely to fail and kill folk.

Materials such as concrete, steel, timber all degrade over time. This is why there is a lifespan placed on them. Building Regulations are in place to protect life, not developer's profit margins.

Heysel is a good example of how an unsafe structure, ie. one that has not been maintain correctly, can fail to catastrophic effect.

But what do I know, I'm merely a RICS chartered surveyor.

I'm very much in favour of maintaining buildings. I believe that buildings should be built to last.

The idea that they "need" replacing because they've reached a certain age is nothing more than built in obsolescence. It's a scam.

[IanMcL]

Surely it must ve a practical proposition to replace the CFS with a new stand which could increase capacity and also be accessible to and providing club house facilities and bar etc for the cricket club. So the FC seats can encroach but under them, huge gains for both clubs.

[mikeS]

Best to rebuild the CFS and fill in the corner between the Longside.

[IanMcL]

I wouldn't be able to watch the cricket then!

[Iloveyoubrady]

Bit radical but how about a replacement BL and cricket field stand with a modern, future proof stand which curls round and could have a new bit on the back for the cc. This can then include player dressing rooms and good new corporate areas as well as self standing area with all of the science behind atmosphere to generate lots of noise (for the homes fans!). Capacity doesn’t need to increase much but more space and fill in the two remaining corners. Ground would look a bit weird but would be much better in terms of facilities.

[AlargeClaret]

The BL is a disgrace ,but as it holds so few, probs not really an issue . A new 8ish k capacity 2 tier CFS would be about right IMO

[ŽižkovClaret]

We can look at over disasters in other areas overs the years, not only footy stadiums.
Look at the motorway bridge in Genoa that collapsed a few years ago!

Also the Troja footbridge in Prague

[Nonayforever]

Whether a redevelopment goes ahead or not, the determining factor won't be the number of fans watching the footie.
I'm 100% sure ALK are looking at the possibility of redevelopment , but any project would have to include other revenue generating schemes such as a hotel, retail units and most importantly food outlets.
The venue would also have to double up as an exhibition / conference centre as well.
The thing is, ALK have the most important cog in the redevelopment wheel, namely Brendon Flood.

[AfloatinClaret]

We can barely afford the players we need to stay up.

And without achievibg that there's no need for a ground redevelopment.

[Paul Waine]

In 97 Bolton opened their new 28,000 stadium. In 2000 Blackburn were projecting to increase their capacity to 40,000. It was very much an era of "build it and they will come" thinking. By 2009 and they were both dropping prices to try and fill empty seats.

In 2016 Liverpool's Ian Ayre said "I don't think there's a club in the country who can afford to spend money on a new stand without the assistance of corporate hospitality. It will probably pay around two thirds or more of the payback of the facility". He said that was when they were planning to extend the Anfield Road stand adding 3500 hospitality seats doubling their corporate capacity.

I wouldn't expect to see a big increase in capacity at the Turf but I'll bet there will be a lot more hospitality seats in any new plans.

Redevelopment of Turf Moor should be all part of levelling up. Big new stadium to occupy all the new "high income" people living around the north east Lancs catchment area - and beyond. If people like Turf Moor in the centre of Burnley (and why not), then the cricket club will be part of the space for the expansion. Maybe do what Spurs did and layout (almost) 3 sides of the new ground while still playing in the old one. Sink Harry Potts Way into a tunnel under a new "bigger and better" (and re-named) Burnley Legends stand (Martin Dobson can be the founding member, as his sale paid for the original). Of course, both the Cricket Field Stand and the Longside need significant safe standing sections, in both cases running all the way from the back and down to the front at pitch side. Incorporate hotel space(s), a range of conference spaces, gym, pubs and coffee shops, maybe also a nightclub. All the things that can be used 24 x 7 and not just match day.

We can make the Turf Moor experience really special.

UTC

[AfloatinClaret]

The location of the Tuef is brilliant and almost unique near to town centre...

And we probably only still have TM because development land in Burnley isn't (in relative terms) very valuable.

[AfloatinClaret]

We could knock down and rebuild the Turf at its current location and relocate to Ewood Park whilst it’s being done.

Be careful about making suggestions like that, particularly if the Bastards fall further and the Venkys pull the plug; Looking from the distant shores of the USA, Ewood Park must look barely a stones-throw from TM; we don't want ALK and their bankers to start thinking:
"We could knock down...the Turf and relocate to Ewood Park , then redevelop the TM site for housing, or perhaps a baseball diamond?"

[diamondpocket]

Redevelopment of Turf Moor should be all part of levelling up. Big new stadium to occupy all the new "high income" people living around the north east Lancs catchment area - and beyond. If people like Turf Moor in the centre of Burnley (and why not), then the cricket club will be part of the space for the expansion. Maybe do what Spurs did and layout (almost) 3 sides of the new ground while still playing in the old one. Sink Harry Potts Way into a tunnel under a new "bigger and better" (and re-named) Burnley Legends stand (Martin Dobson can be the founding member, as his sale paid for the original). Of course, both the Cricket Field Stand and the Longside need significant safe standing sections, in both cases running all the way from the back and down to the front at pitch side. Incorporate hotel space(s), a range of conference spaces, gym, pubs and coffee shops, maybe also a nightclub. All the things that can be used 24 x 7 and not just match day.

We can make the Turf Moor experience really special.

UTC

Might as well just bomb the city centre then and transform it into a greenland space with parks & gardens.

[NottsClaret]

We've probably got about 7 more months of dreaming up wondrous plans for redeveloping our ground. Then it's looking fairly likely we're back to trying to half fill the Turf with £10 tickets for the visit of Reading on a Tuesday evening. So enjoy your grandiose dreams while you can.

[AfloatinClaret]

...what do I know, I'm merely a RICS chartered surveyor.

It could be worse, you might've become a Rovers fan; then again, perhaps not?

Est modus in rebus

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Might as well just bomb the city centre then and transform it into a greenland space with parks & gardens.

Worked for Manchester...

[Hipper]

I'm very much in favour of maintaining buildings. I believe that buildings should be built to last.

The idea that they "need" replacing because they've reached a certain age is nothing more than built in obsolescence. It's a scam.

It is not a scam. Material does deteriorate in reasonably predictable ways. It's not built in obsolescence. It's a fact.

Take a house and its roof. If you ask a roofer they will say the roof needs replacing every 60/70 years. You might have the attitude that he is conjuring up business for himself but if you get an independent report from a suitable surveyor he will tell you about the erosion of the tiles and/or deterioration of the roof timber and certainly the underlay (sarking). If you try to sell the property the buyers surveyor will bring up these points and that will effect the price of course. It may also affect your building insurance.

Very few buildings are worth renovating without cost considerations. One that clearly is is Big Ben:

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/big ... mous-clock

[Rowls]

It is not a scam. Material does deteriorate in reasonably predictable ways. It's not built in obsolescence. It's a fact.

This is classic internet silliness.

Nobody is claiming materials do not deteriorate. Nobody is claiming materials or buildings do not require maintenance.

[Cirrus_Minor]

Relocating the ground from Turf Moor would be a big mistake. With the ground situated close to the town centre people are constantly reminded of the club and probably is one of the reasons for so many locals supporting the club, something that is apparently higher for Burnley than most other clubs.

I agree that some of the stands need updating but let’s not also fall into the trap of increasing the capacity more than a few thousand. There increasing gaps showing in home games and I cannot remember that many times when there have been undersubscribed ticket allocation or people locked out for a match.

[elwaclaret]

Relocating the ground from Turf Moor would be a big mistake. With the ground situated close to the town centre people are constantly reminded of the club and probably is one of the reasons for so many locals supporting the club, something that is apparently higher for Burnley than most other clubs.

I agree that some of the stands need updating but let’s not also fall into the trap of increasing the capacity more than a few thousand. There increasing gaps showing in home games and I cannot remember that many times when there have been undersubscribed ticket allocation or people locked out for a match.

But an argument can be made that now is the time to build for the future. Fans at present can be accommodated while stands are redeveloped… the hope surely is that as the club grows with all the new initiatives closing stands will become more of a problem. A lot obviously depends on the success of the Northern powerhouse plan… but the idea is to get the North a share of the disposable income pie, which as the club progresses will mean higher attendances even within the local area… there are a lot of fans who just cannot currently afford to go to the game.

[Stayingup]

Went in the Bob Lord for the Rochdale game for a change. Haven't been in there for donkeys years but was shocked how much better the concourse looked. So much brighter and the coverage from the new office blocks above was great as you used to get soaked waiting for a pie. The Business HUB looked good too.

As said above it needs a new higher roof to.improve the atmosphere for one.

[Stayingup]

But an argument can be made that now is the time to build for the future. Fans at present can be accommodated while stands are redeveloped… the hope surely is that as the club grows with all the new initiatives closing stands will become more of a problem. A lot obviously depends on the success of the Northern powerhouse plan… but the idea is to get the North a share of the disposable income pie, which as the club progresses will mean higher attendances even within the local area… there are a lot of fans who just cannot currently afford to go to the game.

Yes and there are a quite a number in the 'missing' three thousand who say they are fed up with the style of play and losing to the very top teams - meaning no contest. To me you are either a fan or your not a fan. But you are probably right there are fans who can't afford to go - though they have afforded in previous seasons. Given the size of the town and local catchment area and the fact that many support the 'big' clubs and a large portion of the towns population wont pay to go the support is very good.

[Rileybobs]

This is classic internet silliness.

Nobody is claiming materials do not deteriorate. Nobody is claiming materials or buildings do not require maintenance.

The point being it can be more cost effective to replace buildings than to continuously repair them.

[JohnMac]

We have seen a steady decline in attendances year on year (looking at empty seats not the declared figures). Post Covid even more fans are staying away with nothing to suggest it will improve in the future., there are gaps in NU3 when previously they were full. The JML looks embarrassing most games and maybe the best idea is to to lower the capacity at Turf Moor rather than cater for the Liverpool visit whilst we remain in the Premier League. Adding more capacity will be a folly.

[Boss Hogg]

Bit radical but how about a replacement BL and cricket field stand with a modern, future proof stand which curls round and could have a new bit on the back for the cc. This can then include player dressing rooms and good new corporate areas as well as self standing area with all of the science behind atmosphere to generate lots of noise (for the homes fans!). Capacity doesn’t need to increase much but more space and fill in the two remaining corners. Ground would look a bit weird but would be much better in terms of facilities.

Yuk

[Winstonswhite]

The point being it can be more cost effective to replace buildings than to continuously repair them.

If and when it’s more cost effective to replace rather than repair the CFS and Bob Lord, then I’m sure the owners will do that. We’re a good few years off that though.

[Bop]

Rather invest any money in players that can sustain prolonged Premier League football. Better football means better crowds. Better crowds mean better income. Maybe have this debate then.

[claret2018]

Selfishly I’d like a new ground just off the M65 but that’s just because it would make my journey easier. I’d be far more likely to go on if it were.

Also the Turf has the history and old school feel but it’s bloody grim.

[Burnleyareback2]

Once the safe standing gets full approval I have no doubt the CF will be redeveloped.

Those moaning about the BL clearly haven’t sat in the best stand we have, aside from that the amount of investment that’s gone into the BL and the outside of the stand would mean a hell of a lot of waste by changing it.

[Rowls]

The point being it can be more cost effective to replace buildings than to continuously repair them.

Yep. Like |I said, that's called built in obsolescence.

[houseboy]

I personally like the ground. Think it has a lot of character. Give me this over a Reading,Bolton, Huddersfield type stadium any day. How are you planning to fund the new stadium ? Not a top priority for me.

Agreed. Do people go to watch football or keep up with the Jones’s? I never bothered about comfy seats 40/50 years ago (or less) and I don’t give a toss now. As for a new ground attracting better players I fail to see the logic of that argument. If all they are looking for is fancy surroundings forget them. We have top notch training facilities, that’s all that should matter to them.

[houseboy]

Many seem to be wanting a higher capacity. Why? Burnley has a finite population (and I include the surrounding area and towns). I personally can’t remember a time that we averaged more than about 19/20k in the top flight, that has always been, in my time of watching, our max. There may have been a time in the glory years that was different but those days are gone.
Look at our good friends down the M65. They developed Ewood into a nice shiny new stadium and I think it has never actually been full. They never needed 30k capacity even when winning the PL, much less so now, and Blackburn is about twice the size of Burnley.

[bf2k]

Gosh there is a lot of people who like to live in the past.

I agree the capacity doesn’t need increasing but the outdated/poor designs need sorting.

[Claret Till I Die]

Worked for Manchester...

If the IRA ever did any good, then this was it..

[ChrisG]

Yep. Like |I said, that's called built in obsolescence.

No, because that would imply they were deliberately designed to need replacing, as part of some scheme by contractors to secure future work. That is not the case, nor would it make any economic sense. Given that many contractors live on a month by month basis cash flow wise, looking to secure work to construct a new building 50 years down the line would be rather foolhardy, particular given most clients would not re-employ a contractor who has provided an inadequate product.

Sometimes buildings are no longer for for purpose for a future need. Take office blocks for example; many of those built in the 70s are being demolished as they have reached the end of their useful lifespan. The reason for this is that the slab to slab heights were fine when they were built, however they are no longer sufficient to fit in the amount of services a modern building requires in terms of cabling, ventilation etc that simply wasn't a thing back then.

There is no "scam" as you refer to.

[Devils_Advocate]

I think we should wait until Mr Pace takes us into administration and then look at getting a new stadium like Leicester did. It worked out well for them so I think its a model we should look to try and emulate

[ewanrob]

I was walking toward the Bridge Beer Huis after the Norwich game with my son, 3 or 4 Norwich fans in front of me...interesting listening to their take on us. Basically, a run down Northern town stuck in the past, ugly old fashioned ground with superficial attempts to modernise it. No atmosphere in or outside of the ground...and quite a depressing place to be. There words not mine, middle aged blokes aswell...I love the history of where it is and what its been...but dont think they are far off with there remarks....we need someone with real vision to take this on, no real feel good factor going on these days.

[NewClaret]

I was walking toward the Bridge Beer Huis after the Norwich game with my son, 3 or 4 Norwich fans in front of me...interesting listening to their take on us. Basically, a run down Northern town stuck in the past, ugly old fashioned ground with superficial attempts to modernise it. No atmosphere in or outside of the ground...and quite a depressing place to be. There words not mine, middle aged blokes aswell...I love the history of where it is and what its been...but dont think they are far off with there remarks....we need someone with real vision to take this on, no real feel good factor going on these days.

I used to work in Norwich a few days a week. It's a nice place, no doubt, and I can understand entirely why someone would make those remarks visiting Burnley.

The owners might be able to create a vision for the ground, but it needs local government support and a massive investment of cash to regenerate the whole area around the ground if they want to improve the perception of Burnley as a whole. Some might call it levelling up.

[Rowls]

I was walking toward the Bridge Beer Huis after the Norwich game with my son, 3 or 4 Norwich fans in front of me...interesting listening to their take on us. Basically, a run down Northern town stuck in the past, ugly old fashioned ground with superficial attempts to modernise it. No atmosphere in or outside of the ground...and quite a depressing place to be. There words not mine, middle aged blokes aswell...I love the history of where it is and what its been...but dont think they are far off with there remarks....we need someone with real vision to take this on, no real feel good factor going on these days.

There's a lot of truth in the statement and there's also a lot of perspective and opinion.

The "no atmosphere" is entirely down to the current football on display and our predicament. It would be a different story entirely if they'd visited in, say 2015, when we were on our way to the Championship or during the Coyle charge up the table. Atmosphere comes and goes and we know the Turf is as good as any other ground when the time is right. But the town would have been near-identical.

As for the town being "stuck in the past", it implies a kind of wilfulness on behalf of a personified town. That's unfair. Besides which, the worst sites in Burnley and the parts that were specifically "regenerated" in the 60s and 70s. However, the post industrial north certainly can be a depressing place, especially on a wet and dismal day as it was. It might seem especially marked if you live in the affluent south and the surrounds of one of the finest medeival towns in the country.

It could do these tourists good to see how other parts of the country live. It might help explain why places like Burnley and Hartlepool etc voted in large numbers for Brexit and have also done the seemingly unthinkable and deserted the Labour Party.

That's not to say the same couldn't be said in reverse. Take a low paid plumber or HGV driver from Burnley and plonk him into the Islington set on £70k per year with a nanny for the kids and a cleaner for the house and suddenly marginal issues like trans rights and the price of avocaados in waitrose might seem more important. Not to mention the availability of low wage home helps like the nanny and the cleaner.

[Stayingup]

There's a lot of truth in the statement and there's also a lot of perspective and opinion.

The "no atmosphere" is entirely down to the current football on display and our predicament. It would be a different story entirely if they'd visited in, say 2015, when we were on our way to the Championship or during the Coyle charge up the table. Atmosphere comes and goes and we know the Turf is as good as any other ground when the time is right. But the town would have been near-identical.

As for the town being "stuck in the past", it implies a kind of wilfulness on behalf of a personified town. That's unfair. Besides which, the worst sites in Burnley and the parts that were specifically "regenerated" in the 60s and 70s. However, the post industrial north certainly can be a depressing place, especially on a wet and dismal day as it was. It might seem especially marked if you live in the affluent south and the surrounds of one of the finest medeival towns in the country.

It could do these tourists good to see how other parts of the country live. It might help explain why places like Burnley and Hartlepool etc voted in large numbers for Brexit and have also done the seemingly unthinkable and deserted the Labour Party.

That's not to say the same couldn't be said in reverse. Take a low paid plumber or HGV driver from Burnley and plonk him into the Islington set on £70k per year with a nanny for the kids and a cleaner for the house and suddenly marginal issues like trans rights and the price of avocaados in waitrose might seem more important. Not to mention the availability of low wage home helps like the nanny and the cleaner.

Its grim up.north. No. You should have asked them.why they keep being relegated? No northern grit.

[ewanrob]

Its grim up.north. No. You should have asked them.why they keep being relegated? No northern grit.

If we'd had 10 points on the board and had just given them a reet tonking I may have chirped up...but we haven't and didn't...they appeared to hit the nail right on the head.

[Stayingup]

If we'd had 10 points on the board and had just given them a reet tonking I may have chirped up...but we haven't and didn't...they appeared to hit the nail right on the head.

We havent been relagted promoted relegated. Another thing its ok.for them to say Burnley.is a dump.and that's virtually what they have said. But pound to a penny they have never seen the the area. And one more thing we have a far greater footballing history than they will ever have. These sort of people like some Brighton fans frankly get on.my wick. They are nothing to me.