When did it start to go wrong

This Forum is the main messageboard to discuss all things Claret and Blue and beyond
Elizabeth
Posts: 4378
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:13 am
Been Liked: 1250 times
Has Liked: 1367 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Elizabeth » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:28 pm

It’s not gone wrong yet and while things could have looked better after the Leeds game there is enough time to turn the season around.
I think it is right to ask big questions of Dyche who I am pointing the finger at for results this season. I expect him to change his tactics while keeping his values . Otherwise I will hold him responsible for any relegation that might happen
This user liked this post: bfcmatt

Funkydrummer
Posts: 8310
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:50 pm
Been Liked: 2949 times
Has Liked: 2063 times
Location: Burnley

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Funkydrummer » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:40 pm

Mr Dyche must surely now be wearing his brown trousers after that. :o

claretonthecoast1882
Posts: 10088
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:59 pm
Been Liked: 4161 times
Has Liked: 57 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by claretonthecoast1882 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:40 pm

Promotion to the Prem

Rowls
Posts: 13163
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:00 pm
Been Liked: 5065 times
Has Liked: 5124 times
Location: Montpellier, France

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Rowls » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:42 pm

We've missed out on strengthening in 2, 3 or 4 transfer windows.

RVclaret
Posts: 13836
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:30 am
Been Liked: 3707 times
Has Liked: 2499 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by RVclaret » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:46 pm

Rowls wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:42 pm
We've missed out on strengthening in 2, 3 or 4 transfer windows.
Simply this. For whatever reason, be it Garlick being tight with financing deals, a poor scouting network with a reluctance to go overseas and Dyche having a fixed ‘type’ that he wants in - probably a combination of all of that.

AfloatinClaret
Posts: 1827
Joined: Sat May 26, 2018 7:16 pm
Been Liked: 559 times
Has Liked: 1393 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by AfloatinClaret » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:23 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:28 pm
...it is right to ask big questions of Dyche who I am pointing the finger at for results this season. I expect him to change his tactics while keeping his values . Otherwise I will hold him responsible for any relegation that might happen
A change in tactics would require players capable of carrying them out; our centre backs are not going to become creative just because SD tells them to be (remember JT trying on Sunday?), nor are Wood/Jay-Rod/Barnes/Lennon/JBG going to get any faster or Vydra less panic-stricken in front of goal.

As to the scape-goating of Mike Garlick (we love a scapegoat on here) I notice that those now berating him for selling the club are in the main the same ones who called for him to sell/leave 'their' club; presumably what they meant was for MG to get out of 'their' club, but leave your money behind? :lol:

I don't believe that it's gone 'wrong' yet, only if/when we get relegated will we know that. Being an average Championship side is a success for a club the size of Burnley, any time spent in the Premiership's just a bonus. The best thing about the MG/BF financial model was that we could afford to drop to the Championship in a manner which'd likely see us quickly return to the EPL and at worst remain solvent; the future - be it this year or later - will show whether ALK can do similar.

Jamesy
Posts: 2533
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:53 pm
Been Liked: 780 times
Has Liked: 518 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Jamesy » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:26 pm

Remember when we used to applaud the “he didn’t bet the ranch” tribute to Barry Kilby at the back of JHU? Perhaps we now need to paint a revision of this along the lines of “ Barry didn’t want to bet the ranch but Garlick just wanted to line his pockets” ?
This user liked this post: Rumpelstiltskin

Volvoclaret
Posts: 1449
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:45 pm
Been Liked: 664 times
Has Liked: 379 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Volvoclaret » Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:51 pm

The rot set in exactly twelve months ago. It was January 2021 when a misery virus crept down from NE England
Its sole purpose was to infect everyone with a negative vibe and to bring despair to all Clarets fans. It's a naughty little thing full of spite and spikes and has the scientific name of Newcastleclaret. At the moment there is no known cure and it is expected to continue to grow the longer BFC stays in the relegation zone.
This user liked this post: evensteadiereddie

Goalposts
Posts: 2580
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:36 pm
Been Liked: 559 times
Has Liked: 142 times
Location: the ghost in the atom

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Goalposts » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:02 pm

ClaretMov wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:36 am
It started to go wrong when the scouts and recruitment team at Burnley failed to bring in hardly any player's (especially when we could play a few games in Europe) that have been turn into better player's and sold for profit, this is the only way a club like ours can survive at the top table along with the sky money because we make next to nothing compared to those with match day revenue.

Our signings in the Dyche era whilst in the premier league have been


2014/15

Michael Kightly undisclosed
Matt Gilks Free
Matthew Taylor Free
Marvin Sordell undisclosed
Steven Reid Free
Lukas Jutkiewicz £1,500,000
Stephen Ward undisclosed
George Boyd £3,000,000
Michael Keane undisclosed
Fredrik Ulvestad undisclosed
Matthew Lowton £1,000,000


2016/17

Johann Berg Gudmundsson undisclosed
Nick Pope undisclosed
Jimmy Dunne undisclosed
Steven Defour £8,000,000
Jeff Hendrick £10,500,000
Joey Barton undisclosed
Ashley Westwood undisclosed
Robbie Brady £13,000,000

2017/18

Charlie Taylor £6,000,000
Jonathan Walters £3,000,000
Jack Cork £10,000,000
Phil Bardsley undisclosed
Adam Legzdins undisclosed
Chris Wood £15,000,000
Nahki Wells £5,000,000
Aaron Lennon undisclosed

2018/19

Joe Hart £3,500,000
Ben Gibson £15,000,000
Matej Vydra £11,000,000
Peter Crouch Part ex deal
Erik Pieters £1,000,000
Jay Rodriguez £10,000,000

2019/20

Bailey Peacock-Farrell £2,500,000
Josh Brownhill £9,000,000

2020/21

Will Norris undisclosed
Dale Stephens £1,000,000

2021/22

Wayne Hennessey Free
Aaron Lennon Free
Maxwell Cornet £12,850,000
Connor Roberts £2,500,000
Nathan Collins £12,000,000

Not many star's to pick out of this lot.

About £184 million spent on player's part funded by player sale's (only including big fee's) for keane, Gray and Heaton, this bringing in around 44 million.

Out of the average £144 million spent and I'm only counting £3+ million players we signed we could/have got back

George Boyd £3,000,000 - Nothing
Steven Defour £8,000,000 - Nothing
Jeff Hendrick £10,500,000 - Nothing
Robbie Brady £13,000,000 - Nothing
Charlie Taylor £6,000,000 - Worth more
Jonathan Walters £3,000,000 - Nothing
Jack Cork £10,000,000 - Nothing
Chris Wood £15,000,000 Worth £10 million on a good day
Nahki Wells £5,000,000 - Sold at same price
Joe Hart £3,500,000 - Nothing
Ben Gibson £15,000,000 - We lost money ????
Matej Vydra £11,000,000 - Nothing
Jay Rodriguez £10,000,000 - Nothing
Josh Brownhill £9,000,000 - Small profit
Maxwell Cornet £12,850,000 - hopefully 30/40+ million
Nathan Collins £12,000,000 - hopefully 25/30+ million

That is one hell of amount of money down the drain for a small club like us
Really interesting when you post it like that, don’t think we should forget investment in the club infrastructure
This user liked this post: boatshed bill

IanMcL
Posts: 30129
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:27 pm
Been Liked: 6340 times
Has Liked: 8654 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by IanMcL » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:15 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:43 am
This is such a lazy agenda.

If Pace doesn’t sign anybody this window will you say the same about him? Given on average he already spends less a transfer window than Garlick did in his tenure?
He signed 3 very useful players in 1 window and is keen to strengthen, this window.

Mr G closed all his windows to keep the money ready to collect for himself.
This user liked this post: Rumpelstiltskin

Dark Cloud
Posts: 6586
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:03 am
Been Liked: 1981 times
Has Liked: 3299 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Dark Cloud » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:23 pm

I actually think it all started to go wrong when we became what might become termed "established" because that's the point at which rapidly rising wages start to catch up with income and leave precious little left for transfer splurges. On promotion and several seasons beyond if they survive, clubs are paying basically Championship wages and raking in Premier League money. There comes a time when the former catches up and it starts to really bite in terms of profits and thus incoming transfers (unless you are owned by very rich backers) . Then list of clubs who have experienced what we are experiencing is pretty long and I give you Stoke and Swansea as two very recent examples.
These 3 users liked this post: tiger76 Spijed Rumpelstiltskin

ksrclaret
Posts: 6810
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:56 am
Been Liked: 2490 times
Has Liked: 761 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by ksrclaret » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:32 pm

Newcastleclaret93 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:43 am
This is such a lazy agenda.

If Pace doesn’t sign anybody this window will you say the same about him? Given on average he already spends less a transfer window than Garlick did in his tenure?
Quite, you put a hell of a lot of time and effort into your agendas, so you should know.

boatshed bill
Posts: 15108
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3138 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by boatshed bill » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:34 pm

Elizabeth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:28 pm
It’s not gone wrong yet and while things could have looked better after the Leeds game there is enough time to turn the season around.
I think it is right to ask big questions of Dyche who I am pointing the finger at for results this season. I expect him to change his tactics while keeping his values . Otherwise I will hold him responsible for any relegation that might happen
We used to get better results with what could be considered worse players, this is not down to lack of investment more like lack of effort.

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by tiger76 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:35 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:23 pm
I actually think it all started to go wrong when we became what might become termed "established" because that's the point at which rapidly rising wages start to catch up with income and leave precious little left for transfer splurges. On promotion and several seasons beyond if they survive, clubs are paying basically Championship wages and raking in Premier League money. There comes a time when the former catches up and it starts to really bite in terms of profits and thus incoming transfers (unless you are owned by very rich backers) . Then list of clubs who have experienced what we are experiencing is pretty long and I give you Stoke and Swansea as two very recent examples.
An excellent summary DC, and that's one advantage to being relegated this season, in that we have 10 we can release if we wish, and also save a fortune on wages, there's never an ideal time to suffer relegation, but if we are to drop this just might be the right season to do so, and then do a large overhaul of an ageing squad, which whether we stay up or not is desperately in need of a big shake-up.
These 2 users liked this post: evensteadiereddie Spijed

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 9585
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 3146 times
Has Liked: 10202 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:43 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:34 pm
We used to get better results with what could be considered worse players, this is not down to lack of investment more like lack of effort.
Nonsense.

LaLigaClaret
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 9:30 pm
Been Liked: 191 times
Has Liked: 34 times
Location: Norfolk

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by LaLigaClaret » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:51 pm

It started to go wrong when the club decided we could keep players who are not PL standard, who are too slow, can't keep possession and can't pass the ball to a team mate. Players who we kept for 2 or3 seasons too long when they were clearly continually declining, players who were recruited as bench warmers only, and not playing players who are good players but not given a fair chance. Sticking rigidly to 4-4-2 when we have a lack of options to change players in our midfield and a lack of quality by them to not get continually played through.

boatshed bill
Posts: 15108
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3138 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by boatshed bill » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:55 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:43 pm
Nonsense.
So Arfield and Boyd would be considered as good, or better than some of the more expensive additions then, Eddie?

Dark Cloud
Posts: 6586
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:03 am
Been Liked: 1981 times
Has Liked: 3299 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Dark Cloud » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:57 pm

tiger76 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:35 pm
An excellent summary DC, and that's one advantage to being relegated this season, in that we have 10 we can release if we wish, and also save a fortune on wages, there's never an ideal time to suffer relegation, but if we are to drop this just might be the right season to do so, and then do a large overhaul of an ageing squad, which whether we stay up or not is desperately in need of a big shake-up.
You could well be right and common sense says you are, but my big fear is that we become the next Stoke or Swansea and don't bounce back, but become a "meh" club again, emeshed in the swamp known as the Championship which can be extremely hard to get out of. Personally I'd much prefer not to go there if we can at all help it.

evensteadiereddie
Posts: 9585
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:45 pm
Been Liked: 3146 times
Has Liked: 10202 times
Location: Staffordshire

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by evensteadiereddie » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:23 pm

boatshed bill wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:55 pm
So Arfield and Boyd would be considered as good, or better than some of the more expensive additions then, Eddie?


Arfield and Boyd had very specific roles to play - Hendrick, too - which they did very, very effectively.

Our current predicament has little to do with the lack of concern or commitment you are implying our players have.
This user liked this post: Dark Cloud

boatshed bill
Posts: 15108
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 3138 times
Has Liked: 6682 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by boatshed bill » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:36 pm

evensteadiereddie wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:23 pm
Arfield and Boyd had very specific roles to play - Hendrick, too - which they did very, very effectively.

Our current predicament has little to do with the lack of concern or commitment you are implying our players have.
It's not just me saying it, Eddie,
even the manager implied similar, as did Shearer.
Our effort levels are down.

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Spijed » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:37 pm

Dark Cloud wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:23 pm
I actually think it all started to go wrong when we became what might become termed "established" because that's the point at which rapidly rising wages start to catch up with income and leave precious little left for transfer splurges. On promotion and several seasons beyond if they survive, clubs are paying basically Championship wages and raking in Premier League money. There comes a time when the former catches up and it starts to really bite in terms of profits and thus incoming transfers (unless you are owned by very rich backers) . Then list of clubs who have experienced what we are experiencing is pretty long and I give you Stoke and Swansea as two very recent examples.
This is very true, and once teams become 'established' it's very difficult to carry on in the same way unless you have unlimited finances.
These 2 users liked this post: Dark Cloud tiger76

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Spijed » Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:55 pm

And just to emphasise how mid-table teams in the Prem are likely to get relegated you only have to look at that possibility next season.

If we are among those to drop, being replaced by both Fulham & Bournemouth who have considerable financial clout and may therefore survive then you'll see two teams most likely get relegated from either Southampton, Leeds, Brighton, Brentford, Palace & Newcastle (depending how it's going for them).

The rest are more likely to stop up on the balance of probabilities due to being more wealthier than those above.

But it shows that no matter how much investment the likes of Leeds, Palace, Brighton or Brentford put in place there are even bigger fish than them in the PL and they'll disappear unless they too find a sugar daddy.

corporal jones
Posts: 315
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:31 pm
Been Liked: 96 times
Has Liked: 1 time

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by corporal jones » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:59 pm

ClaretMov wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:44 am
reaping the benefits ????
Irony dear chap.

BabylonClaret
Posts: 3077
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:51 pm
Been Liked: 707 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by BabylonClaret » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:08 pm

Shaggy wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:07 am
It started to go wrong not long after the European campaign. The recruitment and transfer dealings of players being the primary reason. Sean Dyche clearly has a very specific filter of players he wants and he wants to know them which virtually rules out most the foreign players. We can’t compete buying overpriced championship players keeping them and letting them walk at the end of their contracts for nothing.

There was clearly a rift between Garlick and Dyche with regards to transfers with Garlick wanting to go down a more youthful route which Dyche didn’t agree with culminating in the fallout over the contract extensions.

Garlick obviously never gave Dyche exactly a large budget but it was enough to return better than we have. Our budget blows the likes of Celtic and Rangers out the water yet they can sign better players than us.. that can’t be relayed on Garlick like some are trying to do.

Also the signings we have made just don’t go into the first team which is pretty daft considering we are short in a lot of areas.

80% of the problem is the manager.
But if Garlick was adamant the right approach was a different one why did he walk away? He's supposed to be a fan and love the club isn't he? Why cut your nose off to spite your face?

BabylonClaret
Posts: 3077
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:51 pm
Been Liked: 707 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by BabylonClaret » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:20 pm

ClaretMov wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:36 am
It started to go wrong when the scouts and recruitment team at Burnley failed to bring in hardly any player's (especially when we could play a few games in Europe) that have been turn into better player's and sold for profit, this is the only way a club like ours can survive at the top table along with the sky money because we make next to nothing compared to those with match day revenue.

Our signings in the Dyche era whilst in the premier league have been


2014/15

Michael Kightly undisclosed
Matt Gilks Free
Matthew Taylor Free
Marvin Sordell undisclosed
Steven Reid Free
Lukas Jutkiewicz £1,500,000
Stephen Ward undisclosed
George Boyd £3,000,000
Michael Keane undisclosed
Fredrik Ulvestad undisclosed
Matthew Lowton £1,000,000


2016/17

Johann Berg Gudmundsson undisclosed
Nick Pope undisclosed
Jimmy Dunne undisclosed
Steven Defour £8,000,000
Jeff Hendrick £10,500,000
Joey Barton undisclosed
Ashley Westwood undisclosed
Robbie Brady £13,000,000

2017/18

Charlie Taylor £6,000,000
Jonathan Walters £3,000,000
Jack Cork £10,000,000
Phil Bardsley undisclosed
Adam Legzdins undisclosed
Chris Wood £15,000,000
Nahki Wells £5,000,000
Aaron Lennon undisclosed

2018/19

Joe Hart £3,500,000
Ben Gibson £15,000,000
Matej Vydra £11,000,000
Peter Crouch Part ex deal
Erik Pieters £1,000,000
Jay Rodriguez £10,000,000

2019/20

Bailey Peacock-Farrell £2,500,000
Josh Brownhill £9,000,000

2020/21

Will Norris undisclosed
Dale Stephens £1,000,000

2021/22

Wayne Hennessey Free
Aaron Lennon Free
Maxwell Cornet £12,850,000
Connor Roberts £2,500,000
Nathan Collins £12,000,000

Not many star's to pick out of this lot.

About £184 million spent on player's part funded by player sale's (only including big fee's) for keane, Gray and Heaton, this bringing in around 44 million.

Out of the average £144 million spent and I'm only counting £3+ million players we signed we could/have got back

George Boyd £3,000,000 - Nothing
Steven Defour £8,000,000 - Nothing
Jeff Hendrick £10,500,000 - Nothing
Robbie Brady £13,000,000 - Nothing
Charlie Taylor £6,000,000 - Worth more
Jonathan Walters £3,000,000 - Nothing
Jack Cork £10,000,000 - Nothing
Chris Wood £15,000,000 Worth £10 million on a good day
Nahki Wells £5,000,000 - Sold at same price
Joe Hart £3,500,000 - Nothing
Ben Gibson £15,000,000 - We lost money ????
Matej Vydra £11,000,000 - Nothing
Jay Rodriguez £10,000,000 - Nothing
Josh Brownhill £9,000,000 - Small profit
Maxwell Cornet £12,850,000 - hopefully 30/40+ million
Nathan Collins £12,000,000 - hopefully 25/30+ million

That is one hell of amount of money down the drain for a small club like us
You're fishing right? Pretty sure we brought in more than 44m in players. Vokes Boyd Jones Juke all brought in fees (wasn't Jones 2m?) - plus Trippier left in that period for a fee.

And most of those players have given between 3 and 5 years service that have meant we've stayed in this division. It's not Fantasy football.

144m out is just under 25m per year - in the Premier league. Most sides Iin this league spend double that.
These 2 users liked this post: Spijed tiger76

dsr
Posts: 15139
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:47 pm
Been Liked: 4549 times
Has Liked: 2241 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by dsr » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:55 pm

AfloatinClaret wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:23 pm
As to the scape-goating of Mike Garlick (we love a scapegoat on here) I notice that those now berating him for selling the club are in the main the same ones who called for him to sell/leave 'their' club; presumably what they meant was for MG to get out of 'their' club, but leave your money behind? :lol:
I think you would be one of very few people who believed that the money Burnley FC had earned and saved under Dyche's management, actually was Garlick's money. Most of us believed it was the club's money to be used for the club's benefit.
This user liked this post: Rumpelstiltskin

tiger76
Posts: 25697
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:43 pm
Been Liked: 4644 times
Has Liked: 9849 times
Location: Glasgow

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by tiger76 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:51 pm

BabylonClaret wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:20 pm
You're fishing right? Pretty sure we brought in more than 44m in players. Vokes Boyd Jones Juke all brought in fees (wasn't Jones 2m?) - plus Trippier left in that period for a fee.

And most of those players have given between 3 and 5 years service that have meant we've stayed in this division. It's not Fantasy football.

144m out is just under 25m per year - in the Premier league. Most sides Iin this league spend double that.
Unless I've missed them the OP has conveniently forgotten the large returns we made on Gray, Heaton & Keanem bow we would that possibly unless they have an agenda.

Now that's not to deny that we've had bad investments, but name me a club that hasn't, and in the PL if you make mistakes in the market, they can often be expensive ones.

BabylonClaret
Posts: 3077
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:51 pm
Been Liked: 707 times
Has Liked: 618 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by BabylonClaret » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:15 am

tiger76 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:51 pm
Unless I've missed them the OP has conveniently forgotten the large returns we made on Gray, Heaton & Keanem bow we would that possibly unless they have an agenda.

Now that's not to deny that we've had bad investments, but name me a club that hasn't, and in the PL if you make mistakes in the market, they can often be expensive ones.
I think he did mention around 40m in. So took some account of that but the bottom line is that we have earned at least 6 or 7 times that amount over the same period. Granted something like probably 5 x that has gone in wages (that's the real killer as your wage bill increases year on year - as several have ppinted out its much easier whilst your players are still largely on Championship+ rather than Premier - wages) but it still puts the "huge" amount I perspective

ClaretMov
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:13 pm
Been Liked: 843 times
Has Liked: 822 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by ClaretMov » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:28 am

BabylonClaret wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:20 pm
You're fishing right? Pretty sure we brought in more than 44m in players. Vokes Boyd Jones Juke all brought in fees (wasn't Jones 2m?) - plus Trippier left in that period for a fee.

And most of those players have given between 3 and 5 years service that have meant we've stayed in this division. It's not Fantasy football.

144m out is just under 25m per year - in the Premier league. Most sides Iin this league spend double that.
Read properly what I put.........I said "part funded by player sale's (only including big fee's) for keane, Gray and Heaton"

I'm not counting small fees like the odd 3 million here and the odd 1 million there I CBA looking for them because most of them get equualed out by all the undisclosed fee's we've spent, the point I was making we've wasted a lot of money on player's with no or little resale value and a small club like us can't survive with the big boy's at the top table running like that, are recruitment team have made bad mistakes not finding players to sell on, we made around 3 million on Trippier and nothing on ings that's a crime there, I didn't mention these because none of them are Dyche era signings

ClaretMov
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:13 pm
Been Liked: 843 times
Has Liked: 822 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by ClaretMov » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:52 am

Forgot to add to the above but can't edit now, to answer your question, Vokes Boyd Jones Juke all brought in fees (wasn't Jones 2m?)

Vokes bought for undisclosed fee thought to be £350,000 a bloody bargin and sold for undisclosed fee thought to be around 8m plus Crouch, we pulled there pants down at that fee

Boyd like I've already said, bought for 3 million got nothing for him, he walked for free

Juke bought for 1.5million sold for 1 million

Jones was free but sold for undisclosed fee but at 32 I doubt it was 2 million

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:48 am

Spijed wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:55 pm
And just to emphasise how mid-table teams in the Prem are likely to get relegated you only have to look at that possibility next season.

If we are among those to drop, being replaced by both Fulham & Bournemouth who have considerable financial clout and may therefore survive then you'll see two teams most likely get relegated from either Southampton, Leeds, Brighton, Brentford, Palace & Newcastle (depending how it's going for them).

The rest are more likely to stop up on the balance of probabilities due to being more wealthier than those above.

But it shows that no matter how much investment the likes of Leeds, Palace, Brighton or Brentford put in place there are even bigger fish than them in the PL and they'll disappear unless they too find a sugar daddy.
Having financial clout & actually spending it & more importantly getting value from that money spent doesn’t always work out the way you would like it to, you can have the wrong manager spending it on the wrong sort of players & effectively wasting money, regarding Fulham having “financial clout” it never seem to help them last time around, by now we should be an established midtable premier league side but because the club is laden with debt up to the eyeballs the transfer market going forwards will be restrictive & the lack of success severely limited due to this even on a moderate level in keeping with a club this size & reasonable projected outlook.

snapcrackleandpop
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:47 am
Been Liked: 122 times
Has Liked: 151 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by snapcrackleandpop » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:43 am

IanMcL wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:15 pm
He signed 3 very useful players in 1 window and is keen to strengthen, this window.

Mr G closed all his windows to keep the money ready to collect for himself.
But only 1 of them gets a game !!

Spijed
Posts: 17112
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:33 pm
Been Liked: 2892 times
Has Liked: 1294 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Spijed » Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:29 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:48 am
Having financial clout & actually spending it & more importantly getting value from that money spent doesn’t always work out the way you would like it to, you can have the wrong manager spending it on the wrong sort of players & effectively wasting money, regarding Fulham having “financial clout” it never seem to help them last time around, by now we should be an established midtable premier league side but because the club is laden with debt up to the eyeballs the transfer market going forwards will be restrictive & the lack of success severely limited due to this even on a moderate level in keeping with a club this size & reasonable projected outlook.
As you say, it doesn't always work out, hence why any club outside of the big six, plus potentially Everton will always be looking over their shoulders.
If Newcastle get established with their Saudi ownership then it makes it even harder for the rest.

All it takes is for a couple of promoted clubs to stay up for a season longer than expected and a club that is considered too good to go down will have to replace them, hence why no club can ever be established unless you really have huge financial power.

That's why one or two from the likes of Palace, Brighton, Leeds, Southampton etc. will drop in the next couple of seasons unless the promoted clubs go straight back down.

Jakubclaret
Posts: 9434
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:47 pm
Been Liked: 1180 times
Has Liked: 778 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Jakubclaret » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:19 am

Spijed wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 10:29 am
As you say, it doesn't always work out, hence why any club outside of the big six, plus potentially Everton will always be looking over their shoulders.
If Newcastle get established with their Saudi ownership then it makes it even harder for the rest.

All it takes is for a couple of promoted clubs to stay up for a season longer than expected and a club that is considered too good to go down will have to replace them, hence why no club can ever be established unless you really have huge financial power.

That's why one or two from the likes of Palace, Brighton, Leeds, Southampton etc. will drop in the next couple of seasons unless the promoted clubs go straight back down.
Possibly but not necessarily just because promoted clubs get promoted doesn’t mean they’ll spend enough or spend it on the right signings that will be PL ready, thinking about it so what if the likes of palace or Leeds or Brighton drop eventually it’s a good thing do we want divisions season after season with the same old clubs staying in them i don’t. I’ve noticed with you when the chips are down here you always try to distract away from that by discussing another possible clubs plight whether that’s some sort of a comfort blanket for you or you are trying to normalise what’s happening here with our decline I’m not sure, it’s very strange that sometimes you refuse to accept things & go off on a tangent discussing other things which aren’t relevant to what’s happening here regarding our mismanagement.

Top Claret
Posts: 5125
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:50 am
Been Liked: 1127 times
Has Liked: 1238 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Top Claret » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:22 pm

It all started to go wrong as soon as Garlick and the Polish guy saw the pound signs and cut the money supply of for incoming transfers.
Last summers transfer window under Pace was also poor value when you look back. We have seen little of Collins, nothing of Roberts and now we have lost Cornet to the African nations, so all in all it was a poor window

Tall Paul
Posts: 7171
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:07 am
Been Liked: 2560 times
Has Liked: 690 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:38 pm

Top Claret wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:22 pm
It all started to go wrong as soon as Garlick and the Polish guy saw the pound signs and cut the money supply of for incoming transfers.
Last summers transfer window under Pace was also poor value when you look back. We have seen little of Collins, nothing of Roberts and now we have lost Cornet to the African nations, so all in all it was a poor window
What Polish guy?

boyyanno
Posts: 1616
Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 7:25 pm
Been Liked: 499 times
Has Liked: 115 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by boyyanno » Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:44 pm

Tall Paul wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:38 pm
What Polish guy?
Think he means John B- I won't attempt to spell his last name. I always heard good things about him.

Top Claret
Posts: 5125
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:50 am
Been Liked: 1127 times
Has Liked: 1238 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Top Claret » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:33 pm

boyyanno wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:44 pm
Think he means John B- I won't attempt to spell his last name. I always heard good things about him.
That's the mon

rufus lumley
Posts: 887
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:22 pm
Been Liked: 225 times
Has Liked: 7 times
Location: standing like a clock on the shelf

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by rufus lumley » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:33 pm

18th January 1961 Jimmy Bloody Hill !!.

Tall Paul
Posts: 7171
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:07 am
Been Liked: 2560 times
Has Liked: 690 times

Re: When did it start to go wrong

Post by Tall Paul » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:38 pm

Top Claret wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:33 pm
That's the mon
John B is British.

Post Reply