HST2

[Stayingup]

Beeching would have sorted out at a pen stroke

Beeching ugh. I live in the largest UK borough without a commercial railway line. Its disgusting. He was responsible for the elimination of the line into Manchester. What made matters worse since has Benn the destruction of the magnificent Edwardian Stine bridges along the former route.

[Clovius Boofus]

A couple of weeks ago, Sunak was saying there were no cancellation plans and shovels were already in the ground. Then he spends most of conference week going round the TV studios saying HS2 cancellation wasn't being talked about, and then he comes up with this.

So, he's either a liar, or these new plans are panicky back of a fag packet stuff - quickly wrote up to prevent even more slippage in the opinion polls.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Nobody trusts him. Said he would sort out energy profiteering. Said he would sort out supermarket and forecourt profiteering. Said he would sort out dangerous dogs by December - he won't - just another knee-jerk loads of BS from him.

I'm going to start calling him Mr Scrabble - because he's nothing more than words.

My natural instincts are Tory, but I won't be taken for a fool, and I also won't forgive them for inflicting Truss on us. 60 Tory MPs still support, after all the damage she did in those 44 days of madness. I find that mind-boggling. It's like student politics, and I expect better from the governing party of our great nation.

By the way, I've never seen such a mess of a Tory Party conference. Sunak haplessly on the defensive and everyone else, who fancy their chances after the next GE, on manoeuvres.

[Sozturf7]

Levelling up my A... Polical suicide.

[Spijed]

Perhaps build something that already exists:

https://twitter.com/MENnewsdesk/status/ ... 7282740506

[CrosspoolClarets]

Keeping away from that topic we cannot talk about, doesn’t it seem odd that Euston can be redone as a big private partner with huge residential and commercial facilities (like Kings Cross) saving almost £10bn but that was never considered further north?

Surely Manchester, Birmingham etc would have seen demand for prestigious residential units whereas rural hubs the same demand commercially, logistics etc.

Feels like he has avoided all the hard decisions but done the easy one. And of this £19bn for the north, some is already in action and £12bn of it is Liverpool to Manchester. Looking a the Network North document of 40 pages out today, there is nothing running NE to SW, a massively busy route currently from Edinburgh down.

All feels like a missed opportunity.

[Nonayforever]

Seems a really poor show not investing in the countries future after doing all the leg work. The cost will obviously be far greater in the future when / if a new scheme is needed.
On the flip side, why would any government or private company want to invest in a industry that has unions trying to ruin it.

[jrgbfc]

Does anyone actually believe the money promised for other projects will actually materialise?

[martin_p]

Does anyone actually believe the money promised for other projects will actually materialise?

Ask the people of Leeds if they’ve got the investment they were promised after that leg of HS2 was cancelled. It’s a money saving exercise, you’re not saving money if you then spend it elsewhere.

[RMutt]

Does anyone actually believe the money promised for other projects will actually materialise?

It might materialise as tax cuts before the next election.
As I said earlier, how many of the promised hospitals have we got?
They can say what they want because a combination of the electorate’s short memories and a poodle press that don’t remind them means it doesn’t really matter.

[jrgbfc]

It might materialise as tax cuts before the next election.
As I said earlier, how many of the promised hospitals have we got?
They can say what they want because a combination of the electorate’s short memories and a poodle press that don’t remind them means it doesn’t really matter.

And hopefully they won't be in government much longer!

[Stayingup]

And hopefully they won't be in government much longer!

They might well be because the clown in opposition can't keep his metro mouth shut.

[evensteadiereddie]

Does that actually mean anything?
Er, no it doesn't.
Britain now officially the laughing stock of Europe and beyond.
Oh, we can't build a railway on time and on budget so, tell you what, let's promise the ignorant Northerners all sorts of stuff and see if they'll bite.
Oh look, they have.
Berks like stayingup blaming Starmer and Burnham, I assume, tells you all you need to know about this country being well and truly screwed.

[fatboy47]

Tories doing what it says on the tin.

If you're actually surprised go and read some history books.

[elwaclaret]

This was inevitable from them moment work started from London… it was never going to make it north.

Alternative arrangements for the north, just put some wiggles on a map that will impress them.

They really do think the populace came down in the last shower… why because they left school and got a Politics degree? The constant love in with Thatcher with this latest generation should be warning enough. Voting Tory this time brings a massive lurch to the political right. The long term effects of which we can see in Energy, Transport and Care… right now.

[Carlos the Great]

If the36 billion is actually going to
Be spent on improving railways and links between Manchester Leeds etc it sounds a far better idea then HS2 which was forced through by Johnson with a disregard to costs to boost his ego in an attempt to leave another legacy for him ..

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

If the36 billion is actually going to
Be spent on improving railways and links between Manchester Leeds etc it sounds a far better idea then HS2 which was forced through by Johnson with a disregard to costs to boost his ego in an attempt to leave another legacy for him ..

It will never happen. It’s just the same rehashed plans we’ve been promised before.

[BobSykes]

Perhaps build something that already exists:

https://twitter.com/MENnewsdesk/status/ ... 7282740506

Later clarified to mean extending the airport line to terminal 2, Aiport City and then to, er, the new Airport HS2 station by the M56.

Which could conceivably still be built as part of the new line from Liverpool to Manchester. Should that line actually materialise then it would certainly need the tram link building to and from it.

[Rick_Muller]

All I’ll say is this. The promised “new” spend is simply activities that should already be budgeted for as it’s essentially maintenance and minor improvements. HS2 was a massive white elephant that was intended to appease northerners about infrastructure spending, and guess what, it lined the pockets of Tory donors who won the contracts, no bloody surprise there, and for what? Nothing.

[JohnMcGreal]

Just the latest symptom of a zombie country that's in terminal decline. A country that can't even manage to build a railway between a few of its major cities. It's absolutely pathetic.

Sunak stands there proudly announcing to the world that the UK is absolutely finished. A spent force.

[beddie]

Here in Skipton it would just be nice to have a train that runs to Burnley then onto Manchester.

[karatekid]

They should have started working on HS2 in Leeds and Manchester and working their way down. Does anyone think the Birmingham to London leg would have been cancelled when cost’s started spiralling?

[Chobulous]

HS2 was never going to go past Birmingham. That was never the plan right from its first inception. There is nothing in the North of England that the southeast based power mongers want or have any use for. That has always been the case and always will be. As long as the seat of government is based in the southeast anything north of Birmingham will always be marginalised

[TheFamilyCat]

Here in Skipton it would just be nice to have a train that runs to Burnley then onto Manchester.

There is.

If you change at Leeds.

And Blackburn.

[enduroclaret]

HST2 will dramatically INCREASE travel time between London and the north.
Such a high profile project in this fu..ed-up world will attract terrorists.
Right now I can travel from my nearest main line station (Crewe) to Euston in one hour 35 minutes.
I can buy a ticket on line and walk onto the train with two big suitcases with zero security.
The first time some nutter sets off a bomb or starts shooting passengers then we’ll see airport-style security introduced.
That’s going to increase travel time by at least an hour and put the cost of travel up even more.

[Boss Hogg]

Money can be better used elsewhere. There’s no business case for it anymore. A tough decision made. Hopefully they can invest in and improve local bus services in the North for people who are reliant upon them. As for Selrap referred to higher up the thread it’s another waste of money. You can’t just link all the local towns via rail. They’ve improved the Trans Pennine route which there was a clear business case for.

[mikeS]

The high speed rail plan should have been more ambitious. It should have connected all the major cities. That way the whole country benefits.
As the South benefits now with their all electric rail and high speed rolling stock and infrastructure. It's light years ahead of the north
All that's left following Sunaks decision is a railway to nowhere. Pointless really.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Most who use trains frequently would probably be happy with a reliable and decent priced rail service on the tracks we already have.

The reliability of both Northern and Transpennine are a joke. That is before even commenting on the joke company that is Avanti

[bfcjg]

Some of the points made regarding the changes in work patterns are valid,ie working from home,zoom meetings etc are valid TBH so as many business meetings etc are not required and as a number have pointed out getting to London from Manchester,Leeds Crewe etc isn't that bad,getting to the aforementioned is.
Also the red-tape involved in such a project is horrendous and no doubt some of the politicians who were dead against it going through their voters homes are now slagging off the decision to scrap it.
This is endemic of what is wrong with Britain, garbage politicians of all persuasions ,red-tape focus groups etc etc. If we were run by industrialists it would be a case of this is what we need,that's where it's going,that's how we will do it, that's the budget get on with it.

[mdd2]

Even Jeremy Corbyn would lead Labour to victory at the next election. Levelling up smashed by the hangover from 2008, Brexit, not starting HS2 build in Manchester, Covid, Ukraine war sapping money but more than that the amazing ability of the Tories to commit suicide by their own stupidity. There was no chance with a steady sensible approach that the Tories would lose their majority at the next election. Most psephologists after Johnsons triumph in 2019 were predicting a Tory win in 2023/2024 but that wont happen due to the crassness of the Tory party and its grassroots. Starmer should be returned next year with a good majority and then we will see a lot of what we hear about the Tories levelled at Starmer as the political merry go round carries on.

[aggi]

Ask the people of Leeds if they’ve got the investment they were promised after that leg of HS2 was cancelled. It’s a money saving exercise, you’re not saving money if you then spend it elsewhere.

The Leeds trams have been announced again. They'll probably get announced another time when there is the next round of cost cutting.

[TheFamilyCat]

The Leeds trams have been announced again. They'll probably get announced another time when there is the next round of cost cutting.

The Leeds tram has already cost millions over the past 25 to never happen. God only knows what it would cost to actually start building it.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The Leeds tram has already cost millions over the past 25 to never happen. God only knows what it would cost to actually start building it.

Least they are extending the Manchester tram network is going to be extended to Manchester Airport

[aggi]

Seems a really poor show not investing in the countries future after doing all the leg work. The cost will obviously be far greater in the future when / if a new scheme is needed.
On the flip side, why would any government or private company want to invest in a industry that has unions trying to ruin it.

Given that they are planning to sell off the land that was purchased (I'm sure someone will make a nice profit out of that) and develop Euston with not enough platforms for the full service they are probably guaranteeing that the cost of the full scheme will be prohibitive in the future.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Luckily the Euston build and arguably even the land sales will take time and presumably cannot begin until the necessary parliamentary approval.

Putting in these things so a later government cannot reinstate them (e.g. if the West Coast line collapses under current demand) feels like an act of national vandalism. It is on its own a sackable offence and I say that as a small c conservative but I don’t want to make this thread political, suffice to say I am far from impressed and would bet my life savings that new list in its entirety won’t happen.

[Billy Balfour]

Still, at least by 2040 only people over the age of 32 will be able to buy cigarettes .

As for the 40 new hospitals - Sunak has already redefined what a new hospital is. He's now counting a new wing, or an upgraded A&E Dept, as a new hospital.

I can't take Sunak serious for one minute. Standing there on the podium, basically slagging off all of his Tory predecessors since 2010 while painting himself as the nation's saviour. It was near vomit inducing.

[ClaretOfMancunia]

Least they are extending the Manchester tram network is going to be extended to Manchester Airport

Not sure if you're being sarcastic, but that was completed years ago!

[Billy Balfour]

The Leeds trams have been announced again. They'll probably get announced another time when there is the next round of cost cutting.

So has the new Bradford station - the one they cancelled not so long ago. Great idea though. Cancel stuff, then make a great deal of fanfare when you uncancel it. Talk about taking us for idiots.

[fatboy47]

Starmer should be returned next year with a good majority and then we will see a lot of what we hear about the Tories levelled at Starmer as the political merry go round carries on.

Agree.

Starmer is pretty much a tory stooge... I think that's generally accepted amongst those non-tories with a double-digit IQ.....ensuring that the electorate can now choose between the 3 tory partys on offer.

If any Labour supporter can explain to me just what genuinely significant changes are mandated to happen under Starmer then I'm all ears. OK, maybe a few less populist appeals to Suella's fans in the emerging brain dead far right... but anything else?

[Sozturf7]

With all this wonderful material, just think what Monty Python could do with a sketch about HS2.

[AfloatinClaret]

The high speed rail plan should have been more ambitious. It should have connected all the major cities. That way the whole country benefits...

Differing opinions: HS rail should've been less ambitious, so much less that it never got started. As noted earlier, the planning/investigation/enquiry stage in particular was about nothing more than providing jobs/profits for the boys, it was never going to be built.
The UK's population demographic/density and it's small area are not well suited to high speed rail transport, most especially a privatised rail system. HS2 was/is only ever going to save a few minutes for a few people, but it was an excellent opportunity to direct some public money into the right pockets; not that this is anything new, I suspect that even the building of Stonehenge had some of that about it.

[AfloatinClaret]

With all this wonderful material, just think what Monty Python could do with a sketch about HS2.

Or Not The Nine O'clock News.

[JohnMcGreal]

Agree.

Starmer is pretty much a tory stooge... I think that's generally accepted amongst those non-tories with a double-digit IQ.....ensuring that the electorate can now choose between the 3 tory partys on offer.

If any Labour supporter can explain to me just what genuinely significant changes are mandated to happen under Starmer then I'm all ears. OK, maybe a few less populist appeals to Suella's fans in the emerging brain dead far right... but anything else?

Starmer is there to stamp out any trace of left-leaning values from the Labour Party, to protect the status quo and to mind the shop for a few years until the Tories regroup.

It looks like he's going to be very successful at it, depressingly.

[martin_p]

Still, at least by 2040 only people over the age of 32 will be able to buy cigarettes .

I’m not sure how anyone is even going to differentiate between a 32 year old who legally can’t buy ciggies and a 33 year old who can. It’s another unworkable scheme.

[martin_p]

Agree.

Starmer is pretty much a tory stooge... I think that's generally accepted amongst those non-tories with a double-digit IQ.....ensuring that the electorate can now choose between the 3 tory partys on offer.

If any Labour supporter can explain to me just what genuinely significant changes are mandated to happen under Starmer then I'm all ears. OK, maybe a few less populist appeals to Suella's fans in the emerging brain dead far right... but anything else?

There won’t be anything else until the next election, it’s a classic (and fairly sensible) opposition tactic against a failing government, sit at the sidelines and let the tories continually shoot themselves in the foot. There’ll have to be something to put in an election manifesto but that can wait until next year.

[ClaretOfMancunia]

The UK's population demographic/density and it's small area are not well suited to high speed rail transport, most especially a privatised rail system.

Works pretty well in Japan and they faced all the same challenges but on a greater scale.

HS2 was/is only ever going to save a few minutes for a few people, but it was an excellent opportunity to direct some public money into the right pockets; not that this is anything new, I suspect that even the building of Stonehenge had some of that about it.

It wasn't about saving minutes, it was about freeing up capacity on the existing (overcrowded) N <> S mainlines for freight and more frequent local services i.e. growing the economy. This is what the financial business case was built on.

[Billy Balfour]

Starmer is there to stamp out any trace of left-leaning values from the Labour Party

Starmer has lurched to the Labour right because most of the party have finally realised that the GBP don't elect what they perceive as left wing Govts, and it was the same back in 1983.

I have a cousin who's a party member. During the 2019 election, he said for everyone who mentioned Brexit on the doorstep, there were another 5 that mentioned Corbyn. This is why Johnson won the biggest Tory majority in more than 30 years.

The old saying that elections are won from the centre is quite true. The 1945 manifesto would be viewed as left wing these days. At the time, Beveridge was bang in the centre of British public thinking, according to Wartime Social Survey reports. The surveys showed that a majority of public were fully behind it. Nobody wanted a repeat of the 'land fit for heroes' nonsense that failed to transpire when people came home from the trenches in 1918.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Japan is building a 310mph Maglev to go roughly the distance between Manchester and London, much of it under mountains. It will cost about £45bn, was funded at ultra low interest rates pre pandemic, and is intended to be finished by 2027.

It is despairing.

[mikeS]

The Maglev that was a British invention in the 1970s. Another great idea that another nation will benefit from.
Makes you weep it really does.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Most who use trains frequently would probably be happy with a reliable and decent priced rail service on the tracks we already have.

The reliability of both Northern and Transpennine are a joke. That is before even commenting on the joke company that is Avanti

Compare London and any city in Europe’s travel infrastructure to the north west and it is absolute light year ahead of what we get and cheaper.

The ‘money will be spent elsewhere’ argument would be valid if it actually happened and improved the north in anyway.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Compare London and any city in Europe’s travel infrastructure to the north west and it is absolute light year ahead of what we get and cheaper.

The ‘money will be spent elsewhere’ argument would be valid if it actually happened and improved the north in anyway.

100% in agreement, sadly we all know what will happen up here. Using trains in Europe is like your using a totally different mode of transport.

After the recent Man Utd game we ended up on the last train from Central. The standard of those trains won't exist in any developed country in Europe and it took an hour just to Preston