Does Kompany own some of the club?

[Cooclaret]

I have no proof, but made me think, does he have a piece, or promise of a piece of BFC, and the future investment plan?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I believe the company that did all the scouting is his/he’s part owner of

[Carwin261]

I have no proof, but made me think, does he have a piece, or promise of a piece of BFC, and the future investment plan?

Conspiracy theories abound?

[Carlos the Great]

I believe the company that did all the scouting is his/he’s part owner of

That might explain why we’ve signed 15 players already then this season

[Blondeclaret]

I believe the company that did all the scouting is his/he’s part owner of

The club have made all scouts redundant over the past 12 months.
1st team scouts were finished in September 22
And Academy scouts were finished in August 23.

All scouting is carried out by analysts using MUD Analytics which is part owned by VK, The club employs many analysts who provide info on players,

[CoolClaret]

That might explain why we’ve signed 15 players already then this season

The club have made all scouts redundant over the past 12 months.
1st team scouts were finished in September 22
And Academy scouts were finished in August 23.

All scouting is carried out by analysts using MUD Analytics which is part owned by VK, The club employs many analysts who provide info on players,

I suggested in the summer transfer window that this is could be a bit of a conflict of interest / stinky.

Got pelters. Still not particularly happy about it. Reading between the lines/reading bits from Anderlecht fans this is why Anderlecht let him go (wouldn’t give this much control up)

[Newcastleclaret93]

How in gods name have the owners decided using mud analytics was a good idea?

They have put themselves in a really compromising position especially if they have to get rid of VK in the coming weeks

[CoolClaret]

How in gods name have the owners decided using mud analytics was a good idea?

They have put themselves in a really compromising position especially if they have to get rid of VK in the coming weeks

Because they have little experience/knowledge of running a club/the game in England?

[agreenwood]

Nobody was complaining about our new scouting/analytics system last season. In fact they were largely raving about it. I don’t recall any concerns about Kompany being a part owner of it.

Keep them big sticks out lads and find new things to beat the club with.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Nobody was complaining about our new scouting/analytics system last season. In fact they were largely raving about it. I don’t recall any concerns about Kompany being a part owner of it.

Keep them big sticks out lads and find new things to beat the club with.

Did anyone know?

Regardless of league positions etc…. This is really poor.

For this exact reason, VK is failing at this level and this makes things more complicated

[quoonbeatz]

Have a day off lads. Maybe leave the house or something.

[CoolClaret]

Nobody was complaining about our new scouting/analytics system last season. In fact they were largely raving about it. I don’t recall any concerns about Kompany being a part owner of it.

Keep them big sticks out lads and find new things to beat the club with.

Did you hear that bit about how scouting has been reduced over the past 12 months? Ie not all at once.

I have a hunch that the new deal might have involved some more control/influence for VK

[CoolClaret]

Have a day off lads. Maybe leave the house or something.

It's ******* it down mate

[agreenwood]

Did anyone know?

Regardless of league positions etc…. This is really poor.

For this exact reason, VK is failing at this level and this makes things more complicated

It’s been out there since at least last Spring, but it might have been mentioned when we were winning, so you probably weren’t interested in reading much about BFC at the time.

I think it’s fair to say that nobody on here knows enough about the arrangement to decide what the risks are, but if jumping to conclusions assists your wallowing, you carry on speculating as to the the possible ramifications of Kompany losing his job.

[Newcastleclaret93]

It’s been out there since at least last Spring, but it might have been mentioned when we were winning, so you probably weren’t interested in reading much about BFC at the time.

I think it’s fair to say that nobody on here knows enough about the arrangement to decide what the risks are, but if jumping to conclusions assists your wallowing, you carry on speculating as to the the possible ramifications of Kompany losing his job.

Going through all the threads the earliest mention I can see is from Chester Perry in august.

Do you think it’s wise a managers business is involved in scouting?

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

Nobody was complaining about our new scouting/analytics system last season. In fact they were largely raving about it. I don’t recall any concerns about Kompany being a part owner of it.

Keep them big sticks out lads and find new things to beat the club with.

I’m sure they were voicing their concerns in the midst of last seasons success!

[agreenwood]

Going through all the threads the earliest mention I can see is from Chester Perry in august.

Do you think it’s wise a managers business is involved in scouting?

It’s was picked up on one of the money threads last season by either Aggi or Chester Perry.

I’ve no view on how wise it is because I know next to nothing about the arrangement.

[JohnDearyMe]

Have a day off lads. Maybe leave the house or something.

Leaving their bedrooms would be a start

[ClaretTony]

The club have made all scouts redundant over the past 12 months.
1st team scouts were finished in September 22
And Academy scouts were finished in August 23.

All scouting is carried out by analysts using MUD Analytics which is part owned by VK, The club employs many analysts who provide info on players,

The guy Lee Mooney is a part owner of MUD and he appeared a number of times on Mission in board meetings.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Going through all the threads the earliest mention I can see is from Chester Perry in august.

Do you think it’s wise a managers business is involved in scouting?

If it’s working, what’s the issue?

It worked spectacularly well last season and no one gave a toss when it came out

Now it’s a bit tougher in the PL and people suddenly have an issue
If we were doing better, people wouldn’t care

We wanted younger players with more potential, higher resale and not over the hill over 30’s etc
We got it and long term the club is going to better off for it

[CoolClaret]

If it’s working, what’s the issue?

It worked spectacularly well last season and no one gave a toss when it came out

Now it’s a bit tougher in the PL and people suddenly have an issue
If we were doing better, people wouldn’t care

We wanted younger players with more potential, higher resale and not over the hill over 30’s etc
We got it and long term the club is going to better off for it

I think there's people that always have cared.

Say Kompany leaves (not necessarily sacked)

Then what? Surely we should have a setup that is not manager-dependent?

[aggi]

VK owns 70% of Mud Analytics and Lee Mooney the other 30%.

Mooney is very much the new breed of analyst. Started off at Deloitte and then went to Barclays before moving on to Man City.

Seems to be well thought of from what I can tell.

[JohnMcGreal]

We wanted younger players with more potential, higher resale and not over the hill over 30’s etc
We got it and long term the club is going to better off for it

This is the part I have a problem with...

I was always under the impression that this type of intensive data analysis was supposed to unearth hidden gems that few people knew about, and as a result you could pick them up for a relative pittance. Think of Mahrez going to Leicester for £350k, Kante for not much more etc. Surely that is what leads to a high resale value if they develop into good PL players.

Koleosho and Massengo aside (who actually do seem to fit that model) we've spent big fees on pretty much all of our new signings, some of them I'd say are bordering on the extortionate.

Doesn't that make the chances of a high resale value less likely?

It just seems a bit gung-ho and not particularly smart.

[Commy]

We have signed good players who are going to get better, eventually. It is just their age and lack of experience, together with a stubborn manager who isn't prepared to change tactics. Bellamy said on the interview with Neville that they weren't going to change tactics, that we were leaving too many gaps when we press and it needed sorting. I think we have more problems than just that.

[Spike]

Have a day off lads. Maybe leave the house or something.

Going the match would be a great idea

[Clovius Boofus]

Have a day off lads. Maybe leave the house or something.

Such a thing would mean missing out on an hour of pouring their misery out on here. They might also discover there's a whole world out there to explore. Will what's left of their brains be able to cope with it? I think it would turn some of the shut-ins into gibbering wrecks. And this is before we get to where an actual human speaks to them, instead of words on a screen.

I think we need to tread very carefully indeed before reintroduction back into society.

[Clive 1960]

I can remember Ian Holloway having a percentage of transfers when he was at Blackpool when they were in the Premier league.

[claptrappers_union]

I don’t have an issue with the BFC/MUD/VK tie-in. My concern is the business side. Last season, we seemed to unearth some gems, Benson, Vitinho, Muric, low-cost talent that we could reinvest with. They will probably sell for £7-£12m within a couple of years.

Since promotion to the Premier League, that vision appears to be out the window unless they are expecting north of £100m each for the likes of Trafford, Tressor, Amdouni and Oderbert one day.

I’m worried ALK have put all their eggs in one basket with this. They have no option but to stick with VK and hope the process works. Because if they sacked him, another complete overhaul is required.

[FeedTheArf]

I’m worried ALK have put all their eggs in one basket with this. They have no option but to stick with VK and hope the process works. Because if they sacked him, another complete overhaul is required.

IF (and it’s still a very big ‘if’ for me because VK has a big wodge of credit in the bank), we get rid of him then the new manager would want to bring in their own players anyway. And they’d probably want to bring their own scouts with him too. You’d imagine they’d go for a manager in a similar ilk to VK who could work with the players already in the squad and add 2-3 of their own guys.

[FeedTheArf]

I can remember Ian Holloway having a percentage of transfers when he was at Blackpool when they were in the Premier league.

Im sure I’ve seen that Dyche had a similar clause in his contract

[Carwin261]

IF (and it’s still a very big ‘if’ for me because VK has a big wodge of credit in the bank), we get rid of him then the new manager would want to bring in their own players anyway. And they’d probably want to bring their own scouts with him too. You’d imagine they’d go for a manager in a similar ilk to VK who could work with the players already in the squad and add 2-3 of their own guys.

Watching the entourage go off at 1/2 time it would be intersecting to know how many came with VK ,I would imagine the severance pay would be enormous .

[Chester Perry]

I can remember Ian Holloway having a percentage of transfers when he was at Blackpool when they were in the Premier league.

That is pretty common for talent developed through the club - it had been suggested that Sean Dyche was on a 5% commission for any academy talent that was developed and sold. It will be interesting to see in the future if this is a model used in the engagement of MUD Analytics

FWIW and going back though the thread

- I first posted about MUD Analytics at the end of March this year - GIADJ is right - no one was concerned about it, in fact some thought I was trying to disrupt the good news story that was in full bloom at the time

- In early May I posted about having access to some of documents related to the Jersey based entities Velocity Sports Limited and Velocity Sports Feeder Limited. In the articles for Velocity Sports Ltd was a breakdown of four share types one of which was 'Incentive Shares' designed to be distributed to employees and business organisations working alongside ALK/VSL to grow and develop the business (which we have taken to mean the club). It is entirely possible - but far from being confirmed that Vincent Kompany and/or MUD Analytics have received some of these shares. It should be stressed that rewards/incentives of this type are very much the norm in the business dealings experienced by the ownership group. It encourages people to stay and carry on performing

- Employment of external organisations to undertake analytics and recruitment activities has also rapidly become a common experience in the professional game, in Europe and the English game - handing over absolute responsibility and control is a more unique situation, if the reports about that are true. Having the manager being the majority stakeholder in such an enterprise is also unique to my knowledge.

We know some things but there is likely to be a lot more that we do not know about. Though the football authorities may do, there is a limited range of scope and what they demand to be publicly shared. It is entirely possible that in the future the Independent Regulator for Football will determine greater disclosure is necessary - but I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for that.

[aggi]

This is the part I have a problem with...

I was always under the impression that this type of intensive data analysis was supposed to unearth hidden gems that few people knew about, and as a result you could pick them up for a relative pittance. Think of Mahrez going to Leicester for £350k, Kante for not much more etc. Surely that is what leads to a high resale value if they develop into good PL players.

Koleosho and Massengo aside (who actually do seem to fit that model) we've spent big fees on pretty much all of our new signings, some of them I'd say are bordering on the extortionate.

Doesn't that make the chances of a high resale value less likely?

It just seems a bit gung-ho and not particularly smart.

The trouble is that everyone has access to the base data, video analysis, etc. so it's pretty difficult nowadays to get these "hidden gems" unless you head to the leagues where there is minimal data.

I guess that's what we have done with Koleosho to an extent, taken a gamble on an unknown with little history.

Also, we had enough gaps in our team that we needed a decent number of players who were, theoretically, ready to play in the first team. Hence hefty fees on players like Amdouni, Tresor, Berge and Trafford.

That doesn't actually leave many transfers to wonder about. I think our transfer activity in the summer wasn't too bad (other than the obvious lack in certain positions) and the chopping and changing and hope they'll come good instantly has made it look a lot worse.

[NewClaret]

If it’s working, what’s the issue?

It worked spectacularly well last season and no one gave a toss when it came out

Now it’s a bit tougher in the PL and people suddenly have an issue
If we were doing better, people wouldn’t care

We wanted younger players with more potential, higher resale and not over the hill over 30’s etc
We got it and long term the club is going to better off for it

This is absolutely spot on.

There is a lot more to building a successful team and squad than just recruitment, which Kompany always acknowledges (understanding of the system, togetherness, spirit, etc) but recruitment is a good start.

Despite our start, I think we’ve bought some brilliant players. We have more technical ability and potential in this squad than I’ve ever known. That is NOT the problem. It’s that they’re nearly all young and inexperienced at this level, and we have effectively a new team.

Data and analytics will be a huge contributor to success in recruitment and if VK’s company has helped move us forward in that space in any way I think that’s brilliant news.

[daveisaclaret]

There's probably some crossover between our recruitment being outsourced to a firm owned by Kompany and our recruitment failing to put together a balanced squad. You can moan about negativity all you want but this is looking like a big yikes atm.

[Clive 1960]

That is pretty common for talent developed through the club - it had been suggested that Sean Dyche was on a 5% commission for any academy talent that was developed and sold. It will be interesting to see in the future if this is a model used in the engagement of MUD Analytics

FWIW and going back though the thread



I
- I first posted about MUD Analytics at the end of March this year - GIADJ is right - no one was concerned about it, in fact some thought I was trying to disrupt the good news story that was in full bloom at the time

- In early May I posted about having access to some of documents related to the Jersey based entities Velocity Sports Limited and Velocity Sports Feeder Limited. In the articles for Velocity Sports Ltd was a breakdown of four share types one of which was 'Incentive Shares' designed to be distributed to employees and business organisations working alongside ALK/VSL to grow and develop the business (which we have taken to mean the club). It is entirely possible - but far from being confirmed that Vincent Kompany and/or MUD Analytics have received some of these shares. It should be stressed that rewards/incentives of this type are very much the norm in the business dealings experienced by the ownership group. It encourages people to stay and carry on performing

- Employment of external organisations to undertake analytics and recruitment activities has also rapidly become a common experience in the professional game, in Europe and the English game - handing over absolute responsibility and control is a more unique situation, if the reports about that are true. Having the manager being the majority stakeholder in such an enterprise is also unique to my knowledge.

We know some things but there is likely to be a lot more that we do not know about. Though the football authorities may do, there is a limited range of scope and what they demand to be publicly shared. It is entirely possible that in the future the Independent Regulator for Football will determine greater disclosure is necessary - but I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for that.

I think Ian's commission paid for the big house he rented out down Roughlee.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think there's people that always have cared.

Say Kompany leaves (not necessarily sacked)

Then what? Surely we should have a setup that is not manager-dependent?

We could still use MuD if Kompany left

[daveisaclaret]

We could still use MuD if Kompany left

Nobody can believe this is even a remote possibility.

[spt_claret]

The club have made all scouts redundant over the past 12 months.
1st team scouts were finished in September 22
And Academy scouts were finished in August 23.

All scouting is carried out by analysts using MUD Analytics which is part owned by VK, The club employs many analysts who provide info on players,

This is news to me and hugely concerning.
I'm all for data analysis in football, I work in data. It's undoubtedly a key part of effective transfer dealing. But you don't want to be relying on one dataset for building a data model, and it's useful to build comparison models. Plus for something like football, where the low scoring nature makes certain types of analytics less effective than other sports, you really do want to keep human scouts as another stream of information. There's qualitative appraisals that human scouts can make which pure quantitative data can't, the eye test isn't magic but neither is data in a vacuum.

Really question the wisdom of putting all our eggs in one basket like that especially when the manager has a stake in the company which no matter how honest, sincere and hardworking he is, is still going to create an unconscious vested interest which might affect transfer judgment.

I also find it seriously odd how people act as though we didn't do analytics before ALK and Kompany. Dyche was using analytics from his first season, his "play the percentages" spiel was all about this, we were a very data driven team with a similar approach to Moneyball only more focused on the on pitch tactical side of that and signing players who fit that model, rather than focusing on player attributes or profitability and building a team around that model. We've not necessarily been taken forward or backward so much as down a different route regarding analytics.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Analytics is all well and good but I think actually watching the game with your own eyes is underrated these days.

There have been a few players last few years who should have been nowhere near the team so I wonder if that’s because their stats are good or the manager/s has been completely biased to their performance levels.

Stats can hide underperforming players it seems. I don’t just trust just numbers myself.

[RVclaret]

Analytics is all well and good but I think actually watching the game with your own eyes is underrated these days.

There have been a few players last few years who should have been nowhere near the team so I wonder if that’s because their stats are good or the manager/s has been completely biased to their performance levels.

Stats can hide underperforming players it seems. I don’t just trust just numbers myself.

They still watch players quite extensively. It’s not just relying on data. Recruitment analysts spend most of their time watching extensive footage of the player, either live or recorded. Kompany himself went to watch many players last season and was seen in crowds. But it’s just a fact that the top teams, plus the ones we might ‘aim’ to work towards in Brighton and Brentford, have been leading the way when it comes to data and analytics in football.

The chap involved with MUD, Lee Mooney, was the Head of Data/Analytics across the entire City Football Group for over 5 years. Seems like a good fella to have working with us if you ask me!

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

They still watch players quite extensively. It’s not just relying on data. Recruitment analysts spend most of their time watching extensive footage of the player, either live or recorded. Kompany himself went to watch many players last season and was seen in crowds. But it’s just a fact that the top teams, plus the ones we might ‘aim’ to work towards in Brighton and Brentford, have been leading the way when it comes to data and analytics in football.

The chap involved with MUD, Lee Mooney, was the Head of Data/Analytics across the entire City Football Group for over 5 years. Seems like a good fella to have working with us if you ask me!

I have given a lot of credit to VK for last seasons buys this seasons not so much.

Yeah I was more alluding to Dyche , he seemed to be quite obsessed with numbers. How Westwood kept his place in the last prem season still boggles my mind but I guess his numbers were good, who knows?!

[CoolClaret]

Analytics are of course extremely important in football, but they're not the whole story, are they?

Look at Jude Bellingham. No way did a data model tell us he's the next Kaka (arguably better).

That's old school Ancelotti with his nous and experience seeing something that noone else saw.

Football's is so much more dynamic than a heavily data driven sport like baseball; there's not one or two defining metrics that more or less determine a batters worth like OBP (on base %) & RBI (runs batted in)

Can data quantify how a player fits with in a group or how to get the most out of them? One of the things that did make us good under Dyche (and he's slowly doing it with Everton) is building a cohesive unit that play for one another - a team, not 11 individuals which is the feeling a some of us are getting from watching performances this year.

I definitely feel like we lose something dropping scouts. You can't capture the full game of football in a spreadsheet, no matter how hard you try.

I always think a player has something (even if raw/inesperienced) if they look to be in space often and always seem to have time on the ball. Not sure how that's quantified like.

Again, I just don't think we should have so much of what we do tied up with the manager; for obvious reasons

[jojomk1]

Clear as MUD

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

So if say VK was to leave ( hypothetically) we would have no scouting network at first team level if he was to take his ball home, so to speak, hmm that could be a bad situation. Or he could be the bigger man and still allow us to buy his analytics data as the majority owner.

I am thinking Pace might want to rethink this one quite quickly so we are not totally reliant on it.

[BurnleyFC]

Analytics are of course extremely important in football, but they're not the whole story, are they?

Look at Jude Bellingham. No way did a data model tell us he's the next Kaka (arguably better).

That's old school Ancelotti with his nous and experience seeing something that noone else saw.

Football's is so much more dynamic than a heavily data driven sport like baseball; there's not one or two defining metrics that more or less determine a batters worth like OBP (on base %) & RBI (runs batted in)

Can data quantify how a player fits with in a group or how to get the most out of them? One of the things that did make us good under Dyche (and he's slowly doing it with Everton) is building a cohesive unit that play for one another - a team, not 11 individuals which is the feeling a some of us are getting from watching performances this year.

I definitely feel like we lose something dropping scouts. You can't capture the full game of football in a spreadsheet, no matter how hard you try.

I always think a player has something (even if raw/inesperienced) if they look to be in space often and always seem to have time on the ball. Not sure how that's quantified like.

Again, I just don't think we should have so much of what we do tied up with the manager; for obvious reasons

I get the sentiment, but I wouldn’t credit Ancelotti for noticing that Bellingham was going to be a worldie.

The Dortmund team that scouted and bought him, more like.

[CoolClaret]

I get the sentiment, but I wouldn’t credit Ancelotti for noticing that Bellingham was going to be a worldie.

The Dortmund team that scouted and bought him, more like.

I meant more playing him in that proper number 10 role resulting in 10 goals from 10.

I don’t think many said he’d be playing in that sort of role. Ancelotti saw it

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Analytics is all well and good but I think actually watching the game with your own eyes is underrated these days.

There have been a few players last few years who should have been nowhere near the team so I wonder if that’s because their stats are good or the manager/s has been completely biased to their performance levels.

Stats can hide underperforming players it seems. I don’t just trust just numbers myself.

The same tired arguments trotted out every time against stats being used for scouting etc

Yes the analytics team watch the games and then it gets broken down into the various stats that need analysis
Then it gets broken down again
Every aspect of a players game is examined and detailed using digital methods, not just what they’ve seen with the naked eye, because as we’ve seen on here numerous times, a persons view can differ widely to the next ones

[spt_claret]

I meant more playing him in that proper number 10 role resulting in 10 goals from 10.

I don’t think many said he’d be playing in that sort of role. Ancelotti saw it

I thoroughly felt Bellingham was deeply overrated until this season. Good but not the maestro people made out.

Ancelotti has changed my mind. But I also think he's possibly the best manager in history. Certainly the most open minded and adaptable his ability to change his approach, you can't ever really wed him to a formation or style. His 2021 champions league win was absurd, Madrid should never have even made the semis.

[CoolClaret]

I thoroughly felt Bellingham was deeply overrated until this season. Good but not the maestro people made out.

Ancelotti has changed my mind. But I also think he's possibly the best manager in history. Certainly the most open minded and adaptable his ability to change his approach, you can't ever really wed him to a formation or style. His 2021 champions league win was absurd, Madrid should never have even made the semis.

That’s why he’s the best though mate - he adapts to who he has and has a vision on players to mold them a certain way.

I feel like a lot of football now is chasing an algorithm; it’s almost like the Spotify Top Ten / tik Tok Music for football at times - top trumps even.

People like to make out like the league is miles and miles ahead of what it was even ten years ago - I don’t necessarily buy it.

(I also too thought Bellingham was being slightly overrated but Ancelotti knows)